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Author Topic: Settler Graffiti in Hebron
Coyote
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posted 20 May 2005 03:54 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Christian Peacemaker Team in Hebron has recently set up a web-page detailing the kinds of graffiti written by settlers in Hebron. I am sure all babblers of all political stripes, and all positions on the question of Palestine and Israel, will stand united against the virulent racism propogated by the settler movement.

Photos.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 20 May 2005 03:58 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Gas the Arabs."

"Sand-Niggers."

"Arabs to the gas chambers."

Where would that come from?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 20 May 2005 03:59 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is disgusting. In an area that is to say the least a powder keg waiting to be lit off this will do nothing but raise the tension level even higher.

I only hope that those who are doing this are caught and punished

Edited to add: although these are probably the actions of the minority or at least one would hope so they paint the entire group with the same brush.

[ 20 May 2005: Message edited by: miles ]


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 20 May 2005 08:19 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by miles:
Edited to add: although these are probably the actions of the minority or at least one would hope so they paint the entire group with the same brush.

[ 20 May 2005: Message edited by: miles ]


It seemed very hard for you to come to that kind of reasoned conlcusion on this thread.

Are you going to send a letter to the Wiesenthal Center demanding that they demand Areil Sharon denounce such graffiti?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 20 May 2005 09:55 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Hebron settlers are a self-selected group of the most noxious Zionist settlers. Who else would CHOOSE to live in such a way that holds an entire functioning city hostage for years? Most of the settlements in the West Bank creep up on Arab land, but these people chose to plunk themselves down in the middle of it and make life a living hell for their neighbours.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 20 May 2005 11:06 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
It seemed very hard for you to come to that kind of reasoned conlcusion on this thread.

Cueball i condemed the racist rantings of a religious leader on another thread. Here i condemend the racist grafitti. In neither case have i painted an entire people as those who have done wrong.

let's recap. I have condemed religious intollerance and the abuse by a clergy person of their pulput for using it for racist preachings inthe thread you have linked to.

In this thread i condemed the racist grafitti and stated my hope that the perpetrators are caught and punished.

Where is the double standard? In both cases i have not condemed a people or a race rather the actions of a lunitic fringe.

Too me it seems balanced.


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 21 May 2005 05:14 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The double standard lies in the fact that you were willing to allow (as I do) that radically racists ideas represented by this graffiti might the views of a minority of Israelis. I actually agree, as my view of the Hebron settlers movement, is in line with Mandos -- they are at the very extreme edges of Israeli thought. On the other hand you did not qualify your statements about the Sheik in such a manner. In other words, you did not say:

quote:
"(The Sheik's) statement are probably the (words) of the minority or at least one would hope so they paint the entire group with the same brush."

Thus you allowed yourself to be part of painting "the entire (Palestinians) group with the same brush." Your qualification, is also an edited edition to your original post, so it is quite clear that put some thought in correcting your original "absolute" condemnation, and softened it.

What I did find reading through your posts on the other thread were unequivocal condemnation, such as:

quote:
What the Sheik said is racist filth and should not be condoned. It should only be condemed [sic].

You did not edit in any softening commentary.

I appreciate your general condemnation of both, which we agree is only right, but find it odd that there is no neutralizing qualification in the Palestinian case.

Please, accept my appologies in advance if I have missed the relevant statement to this effect, in the Sermon thread. It is possible that I missed it.

[ 21 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 21 May 2005 06:04 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by miles:
Where is the double standard? In both cases i have not condemed a people or a race rather the actions of a lunitic fringe.

But is it? I mean can we really call either of these groups the 'lunatic fringe'? Or are they distillations? I mean, it seems that in the case of Israel they are trying to get Abbas to take some official responsibility by harping on the fact that the sermon was shown on PA television. Well, the Hebron settlers are bought and paid for by the Israeli government. They are sheltered and protected by the IDF in spite of their frequent resorts to violence and the existence of a paramilitary fuelled by racism among them.

Turn the tables (imagine a Palestinian paramilitary (err...terrorist?) organisation that wanted nothing more than the destruction of all Israelis and see what would happen. Wait, that does exist and they send in the army daily to kill and maim them along with anyone standing near them.

The problem with the official Israeli position is that it doesn't respond to both racisms equally because it profits from the one and not the other.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 May 2005 11:18 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The rantings on the wall are violent racist garbage. Sadly we dont know who put them there. It is graffitti placed there by assholes, probably skulking around in the dead of night, who clearly could be anyone from anywhere.

We know who the Sheik is and exactly what he said as well as to whom. Big difference.

Lastly:

quote:
Turn the tables (imagine a Palestinian paramilitary (err...terrorist?) organisation that wanted nothing more than the destruction of all Israelis and see what would happen. Wait, that does exist and they send in the army daily to kill and maim them along with anyone standing near them.


At best this a troll designed to get reaction since it has nothing to do with the thread. At worst it is typical anti-Israeli Bullshit coming from the extreme left.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 22 May 2005 11:32 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What I can't figure out is how round the bend one has to be if one is Jewish, to use remarks echoing what happened to the Jews during the 1930s and early 1940s to describe what allegedly should be done to another group of people.

That's the part that should make people turn green at those spraypainted slogans.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 May 2005 11:35 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What I cant figure out is why assume that this graffitti was put there by Jews? Oh of course for soome here there can be no other explanation. Such behaviour in itself smacks of stereotyping.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 22 May 2005 11:46 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Sadly we dont know who put them there.


True. Just as we don't know who put anti-Semitic graffiti on the headstones of a Jewish cemetery.

From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 May 2005 12:30 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well here in Toronto we know because the kids were arrested. Josh, and Conway, I know this is hard but get out of your Hate Israel mindset and try to be a bit fair-thinking . The fact of the matter is we have no idea who put this ugly racist grafitti on these walls in Hebron. It is racist thinking to blame Jews or Israelis PERIOD. You can assume all you want but you know what they say about people who assume?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 22 May 2005 12:43 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's racist to think that the crazy settlers in Hebron to do this? What load of crap. And, of course, we won't find out who did this. Do you think the occupying Israeli force would arrest their beloved "settlers"?

And frankly, I'm sick of your double-standard when it comes to Israel and anti-Semitism in general. As well as your refusal to engage when it doesn't suit your agenda. Unlike you, I won't accuse you of being a racist. You have enough trouble being a fraud and a coward.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 22 May 2005 03:12 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
The fact of the matter is we have no idea who put this ugly racist grafitti on these walls in Hebron. It is racist thinking to blame Jews or Israelis PERIOD. You can assume all you want but you know what they say about people who assume?

Who the hell else lives in Israel, and especially, who the hell else lives in Hebron? Space aliens? Please.

PS. I highly doubt any Arabs spray-painted them slogans on.

[ 22 May 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 May 2005 03:42 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doc, Israel is made up of many people, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze you should go there one day and see for yourself before you shoot your mouth off.. Your singular blindness is sad but I continue to hold that it is racist to believe that only the Jews would have done this. It is also hateful.

Now I take it as possible that Settlers may have done this act but by no menas any more possible than anyone else.

And Josh I really dont give a shit what you think about me. The fact that you are willing to accept blindly that only the Jews did this should say as musch about you as your wrongheaded thoughts about me.

[ 22 May 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 22 May 2005 03:52 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
About the settlers in Hebron:

If you're interested enough to go to a library, you might look up the New Yorker magazine for 24 May 2004. The cover story, by Jeffrey Goldberg, is very hard to read all at one sitting, so plan on several visits to the library. I'm sorry I can't link to it but it has never been online; you can listen here to an interview with Jeffrey Goldberg about his research on the settlers.

It may be that Macabee has never read this article and doesn't know what is going on in the West Bank. I believe I remember Mishei becoming very interested in the article when I first mentioned it, and saying later that he had rushed out to buy a copy. Shame that Macabee and others can't do that now, but there is, as I say, always the library.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 May 2005 04:02 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have seen the article and I am fully aware of what is going on in Hebron. That notwitstanding, the graffitti could have been done by anyone is that not right Skdadl or do you to hold that only the Israeli Settlers did it?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 22 May 2005 04:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, from what I have read and viewed about Hebron (Sixty Minutes, eg), it seems to me that graffiti would be about the most innocent activity many of the settlers there ever undertake.

The New Yorker article certainly tells us that mothers of children there speak proudly of raising their children to die in the battle against the Palestinians. That seems to me a lot worse than graffiti.

[ 22 May 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 May 2005 04:23 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, I have never suggested that the problems in Hebron are minor and I can tell you that I fully and without reservation condemn those settlers who engage in anti-Palestinian racism.

That said, please don't deflect. Are you saying that the graffitti can only have come from the Israeli settlers?


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 22 May 2005 04:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
I have seen the article and I am fully aware of what is going on in Hebron. That notwitstanding, the graffitti could have been done by anyone is that not right Skdadl or do you to hold that only the Israeli Settlers did it?

Well if you are going to dangle your argument on such a thin string, I will seriously challenge the veracity of the unsigned translation of mosque sermon we recently discussed. Is it real? Or was it cooked up in some TV studio in Tel Aviv? Anyone could have broadcast that speech? How do we know he is a real Imam?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 22 May 2005 05:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

That said, please don't deflect. Are you saying that the graffitti can only have come from the Israeli settlers?


Hell, no, Mac. I never say "can only." Like, I am not an absolutist, me. Not. Pas moi.

They could have come from outer space. They could have popped up the same way that that mediaeval Chinese fort seems to have in Cape Breton. I understand that the Polynesians have done some remarkable navigation in their time.

Or, I don't know, some lazy BBC journalist with a twisted sense of humour pulled out a can of spray paint one night. I bet they do that sometimes, and who could blame them?

Or maybe some similarly fed-up member of the IOF?

Sure. Those are all likely prospects. Some more likely than others, though.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 May 2005 05:45 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Well if you are going to dangle your argument on such a thin string, I will seriously challenge the veracity of the unsigned translation of mosque sermon we recently discussed. Is it real? Or was it cooked up in some TV studio in Tel Aviv? Anyone could have broadcast that speech? How do we know he is a real Imam?


It is not up to me to prove your paranoid fantasies one way or the other. You know people who speak Arabic as do I. Just ask. Then if you have any serious proof that it is not legitimate bring it here. I will offer a full and unabashed apology.

In reality you are of course purposely mixing apples and oranges. In one case we have a real human being caught on film that no one, neither Palestinian or Israeli have questioned as to authenticity. Only real conspiracy kooks (i guess that may mean you) are trying to cook up any doubt. On the other we have ugly racist GRAFITTI, that's it. Dont really know who did it or where it came from. But then again we have those with pretty clear agendas who have no doubt that it must be Jewish Israelis. Hmmmm Now back to the thread. By the way nice try at deflecting yet again.

[ 22 May 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 May 2005 05:51 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Hell, no, Mac. I never say "can only." Like, I am not an absolutist, me. Not. Pas moi.

They could have come from outer space. They could have popped up the same way that that mediaeval Chinese fort seems to have in Cape Breton. I understand that the Polynesians have done some remarkable navigation in their time.

Or, I don't know, some lazy BBC journalist with a twisted sense of humour pulled out a can of spray paint one night. I bet they do that sometimes, and who could blame them?

Or maybe some similarly fed-up member of the IOF?

Sure. Those are all likely prospects. Some more likely than others, though.


Skdadl frankly Im more than disappointed in this response. Not that you give a fig but this is not like you. Despite our differences on most things Middle East I have always taken you to be a straight shooter. This post of yours is in the same category as Doc's possibly a hair short.

Hebron is populated, I agree, by a majority of Jewish Israelis. However, there are a significant number of Muslim and Arab Israelis; that you and some others remain quick to feel so sure that it has to be Jewish Israelis who did this points out exactly why those of us who are, yes pro-Israeli, (or frankly pro-peace)wonder as to motivation here by some on Babble. Can you understand this?


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 22 May 2005 07:06 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Hebron is populated, I agree, by a majority of Jewish Israelis. However, there are a significant number of Muslim and Arab Israelis; that you and some others remain quick to feel so sure that it has to be Jewish Israelis who did this points out exactly why those of us who are, yes pro-Israeli, (or frankly pro-peace)wonder as to motivation here by some on Babble. Can you understand this?

This is your flimsy, hastily constructed attempt to downplay the dangerously racist attitudes that seem to characterize many Jewish settlers in the Occupied Territories?

Please excuse me while I roar with laughter.

Permit me to ask you why you think an Arab or Muslim would spraypaint slogans in English stating that Arabs should be killed. In particular I ask what Arab would know or use the Kach movement symbol on a wall. It's not as simple or as ubiquitious as, say, the Anarchist symbol.

I didn't even know the Kach movement had a symbol, for example, although I admit I am not the best example to use.

Then again I suspect if we had video footage of settlers painting each and ever one of them grafitti things you'd insist that it was just the same four or five each time and really, the settlers are all just really nice people who don't have poisonous thoughts in their heads about slaughtering anybody who ain't the right religion or ethnicity.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 May 2005 07:43 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doc stop being such a dink. I have been as direct aas can be on this grafitti as racist violent grafitti. I have had no truck or trade with settlers and have said so time and again. In fact if you can pull your head out of your ass for just a second you will note (scroll up just a bit)

quote:
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227
posted 22 May 2005 04:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skdadl, I have never suggested that the problems in Hebron are minor and I can tell you that I fully and without reservation condemn those settlers who engage in anti-Palestinian racism.
...
There you see it??? Condemn FULLY and without reservation???

Secondly I have NO CLUE who put those slogans there. People do things for wierd and bizarre reasons. Hell a Jewish kid even engaged in ugly antisemitic sloganeering on a website evolving from the situation at Royal St. George's School in Toronto and I have no idea why.

So dont give me your stupid laughter and feigned outrage. You are the one who is single-minded here. You pretty well more than anyone else refuse to accept that this can be anyone. Yes it may very well be racist settlers. It may also be a host of others for reasons we could never fathom. Happened before and it can happen again. Any where.

Forgive my outburst here but honestly you can be such a jerk.

[ 22 May 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 22 May 2005 07:55 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, we can see that you condemn them. Yet you maintain that no one put them there.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 12:43 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Really Cueball, I said that huh? Perhaps you can show us all where I ever said such a thing. Honestly Cueball you have taken an untenable position, everyone here sees it but you. So stop deflecting admit that I in fact am correct and then you will be able to move on.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 May 2005 12:45 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well then, who is the prima facie culprit? Bulgarian spies, German Anrachists, Palestinian militants, or Zionist extremists?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 23 May 2005 12:48 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Doc stop being such a dink. I have been as direct aas can be on this grafitti as racist violent grafitti. I have had no truck or trade with settlers and have said so time and again.

Direct? I suppose if you call hitting the side of the target a "direct hit" as opposed to the more commonly-accepted direct hit wherein you actually get the bulls-eye.

quote:
Secondly I have NO CLUE who put those slogans there. People do things for wierd and bizarre reasons. Hell a Jewish kid even engaged in ugly antisemitic sloganeering on a website evolving from the situation at Royal St. George's School in Toronto and I have no idea why.

It's not hard to guess who did the grafitti, Macabee. It's called the balance of probabilities.

On the balance of probabilities, settlers did the grafitti. It fits in with what is previously known about their hateful, spiteful attitudes and their willingness to provoke Palestinian-Arabs without fear of reprisal given that the IDF can back them up.

I mean, if you can't see this I have no idea what the hell blinders you're wearing.

quote:
Yes it may very well be racist settlers. It may also be a host of others for reasons we could never fathom. Happened before and it can happen again. Any where.

Well then, smart fella, if you dispute my analysis of the most probable source of the grafitti, why don't you tell me who the next most probable source might be? PS. If you tell me "Palestinian Arabs", I'm going to die laughing again.

quote:
Forgive my outburst here but honestly you can be such a jerk.

The feeling's mutual, buddy.

[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 12:51 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Well then, who is the prima facie culprit? Bulgarian spies, German Anrachists, Palestinian militants, or Zionist extremists?
There is no "prima facie" anything.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 12:55 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Conway it has been found sadly that the obvious culprits are not always so obvious. It is clear you wish it to be the settlers and you may be right. However the fact that you accept your conclusion without thought , without accepting that terrible things are done for reasons you will never understand clearly tells us much.

Your need for this to be done by Israeli Jewish settlers is a sign that you should take a breath and understand that the Middle east is a complicated place. Jumping to conclusions is silly and telling for us all.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 23 May 2005 12:56 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Amazing! Macabee has turned into the High Priest of the Holy Benefit of the Doubt! And I thought I'd never live to see the day.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 01:08 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, what is amazing is that I have never made assumptions when the evidence wasnt there. As I said, it could be the settlers or it could be someone or something else. Either way those that want it to be the Settlers are the ones who do so for a very obvious reason. I understand that their hate blinds them to the fact that no one should be accused without at least some evidence.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
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posted 23 May 2005 01:23 AM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
it could be the settlers or it could be someone or something else.

something else? like what? robots? super-intelligent-ultra-racist cans of semi-gloss spray paint? mass halucinations? what is this something (or who is this someone) else you are suggesting be the likely suspect?


From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 23 May 2005 02:54 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
No, what is amazing is that I have never made assumptions when the evidence wasnt there. As I said, it could be the settlers or it could be someone or something else. Either way those that want it to be the Settlers are the ones who do so for a very obvious reason. I understand that their hate blinds them to the fact that no one should be accused without at least some evidence.

Oh, bollocks. If it was spraypainted slogans that read "GAS THE N-----RS" and "DIE COONS", you'd be hollering your head off about the goddamn right-wing white supremacists and guess what, you'd be correct on an overwhelming balance of probabilities. (and, I remind you, such slogans have indeed been spraypainted in Canada and the US at some point in the 20th century)

There would be no goddamn "reasonable doubt" in your mind about it and there would be no goddamn second guessing.

Are you this pathetic that you have to resort to these subterfuges and deflections when it comes to people you just can't admit are a bunch of racist yahoos on par with white supremacists in their troglodyte attitudes towards whole groups of the human race?

If your posts were a lab report they'd be insufferably inadequate, riddled with false hypotheses, inaccurate experimental data, and poorly drawn conclusions and you'd be lucky to avoid getting a zero.

[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 09:23 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by 'topherscompy:

something else? like what? robots? super-intelligent-ultra-racist cans of semi-gloss spray paint? mass halucinations? what is this something (or who is this someone) else you are suggesting be the likely suspect?


There are political and extremist groups , individuals of all stripes. You see unlike some here I wont jump to accuse anyone. We can have our suspicions but it just amazes me how important it is for some on Babble to accuse Israeli Jews.

[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]

[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 09:32 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

Oh, bollocks. If it was spraypainted slogans that read "GAS THE N-----RS" and "DIE COONS", you'd be hollering your head off about the goddamn right-wing white supremacists and guess what, you'd be correct on an overwhelming balance of probabilities. (and, I remind you, such slogans have indeed been spraypainted in Canada and the US at some point in the 20th century)

There would be no goddamn "reasonable doubt" in your mind about it and there would be no goddamn second guessing.

Are you this pathetic that you have to resort to these subterfuges and deflections when it comes to people you just can't admit are a bunch of racist yahoos on par with white supremacists in their troglodyte attitudes towards whole groups of the human race?

If your posts were a lab report they'd be insufferably inadequate, riddled with false hypotheses, inaccurate experimental data, and poorly drawn conclusions and you'd be lucky to avoid getting a zero.

[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


Conway what is clear is you spend too much time in your fantasy laboratory and very little time in reality.

I have never tried to excuse the racist behaviour of some settlers. I have condemned it unreservedly but you are so blind in your bias you cant even read it.

What is also clear is that you should never ever be on a jury. You are too closed minded, to one dimensional which makes me question your so-called scientific abilities as well.

Lastly do some reading my friend, while I am not saying this is what happened in this case, I am telling you that individulas and people get set up all the time for all kinds of reasons.And sometimes the people you least expect are involved in the most despicable kinds of crimes. For your closed and biased mind this must be Israeli Jews that did this racist crime. For me while I accept the very possibility it may have been racist settlers I dont automatically assume it is. That's the difference between someone here who has a clear bias on the matter and one who does not.

Now Doc, back you go to your fantasy world.

BTW, the term "C--N" is as racist as N----R.

[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 May 2005 09:53 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That's the difference between someone here who has a clear bias on the matter and one who does not.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 10:13 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suppose Skdadl the same laugh could be applied to you.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 May 2005 10:18 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have never tried to disguise my politics, Macabee.

And it has been a lot of years since I was silly enough to claim that I or anyone else was "objective" about just about anything.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Panasonic
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posted 23 May 2005 11:03 AM      Profile for Panasonic        Edit/Delete Post
Look at the locations the CPT group has choosen to perform its interventions.

Surprisingly none take place in Africa.

Is CPT really a peace group or do they have an agenda?

From: CPT.ORG

quote:
5. How are you different than a secular peace group?

In some ways we may be very different but in our humanness and inability to do what is needed in every setting where we face violence we are much like other groups. Participants in CPT are Christians. Teams engage in regular spiritual reflection. Public and private prayer is emphasized. In selected situations being Christian is a clear advantage. For example, in Muslim areas the Christian nature of CPT helps to create confidence because of a shared sense of monotheism. There is a continuity to our witness reaching back to the age of the Old Testament prophets. We intend for our work to connect to the ministry of Jesus and the early church through early Anabaptism in the period of the reformation and Quaker reform work. There is a consistent tendency for organized religion to make "calculated" alliances with the state, as it often did during the age of imperialism. Christians can be free of worldly confinements and eager to witness for truth in difficult times and dangerous places. The original CPT vision called for 100,000 peacemakers. By moving ahead one step at a time we believe that is possible.


Sharred Monothesism is always a red flag for me.


From: Windsor | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 May 2005 11:15 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Um ... Huh?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 11:37 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I have never tried to disguise my politics, Macabee.

And it has been a lot of years since I was silly enough to claim that I or anyone else was "objective" about just about anything.



Problem is Skdadl that I never claimed to be objective. I am speaking about this one issue on the thread. I have stated time and again what the possibilities are but unlike Conway for example I will not outright accuse. I hope you wont either.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 May 2005 11:47 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, you wrote:

quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
That's the difference between someone here who has a clear bias on the matter and one who does not.


I dunno. I've read that sentence every which way but swinging from the chandeliers, and it sure looks to me as though you are attributing lack of bias to your own li'l lonesome.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 11:55 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then try it this way, my lack of bias centers around being non-accusatory. We all have our suspicions but as soon as we accuse we tell the world our biases on the issue as was done here.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 May 2005 12:00 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We all have our suspicions ... Hee. Well, I guess you could put it that way, Mac. It's true: you mostly don't ever quite say what's on your mind. You just insinuate.

'Scuse me -- am I in danger of crossing a line there? Nudge nudge wink wink? A word to the wise? And all those cliches?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 12:12 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, I have no idea what you are talking about. I have been pretty clear on settlers have I not?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 May 2005 12:28 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You've been pretty dodgy on your fellow babblers, Mac.

Oh, why am I not surprised? The extreme left, you know. And all that sort of thing.

Gee: I'm not in danger of crossing a line there, am I?

Look, Mac: this is thread diversion, as usual. I'm quitting here. Have a nice day.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 12:34 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We are all free to interpret as we wish. Since we are not permitted to accuse fellow Babblers of certain behaviours, there are times that being dodgy is the best one can do.

Happy Victoria day.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 May 2005 02:34 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This thread is hilarious.

For those of us who have wasted untold hours, and far too much of babble's bandwidth arguing with this crackpot over the years, LakMishMac has finally provided us with some entertainment. Who knew that intellectual slapstick would work so well?

quote:
There are political and extremist groups , individuals of all stripes. You see unlike some here I wont jump to accuse anyone.

This is gold! Pure gold!!

quote:
We can have our suspicions but it just amazes me how important it is for some on Babble to accuse Israeli Jews.

Indeed, the settlers may be zealots, thieves and murderers, but to accuse them of graffiti? Why, that goes beyond the pale. What next, littering?

It's obvious that this vandalism is the work of self-hating Arabs.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 04:04 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh Al your preoccupation in deligitimizing me or anyone who supports the Jewish state is so obvious that people , if they are laughing can only guffaw at you.

I know you love accusing Jewish Israelis of all bad things. That is frankly what you are all about. I and most other people who are fair-minded will hold to their suspicions but not outright accuse . Its just not considered civil.

[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Panasonic
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posted 23 May 2005 04:05 PM      Profile for Panasonic        Edit/Delete Post
al-Qa'bong ,

I took a look at CPT.org's website.

They don't pass the smell test.

In selected situations being Christian is a clear advantage. For example, in Muslim areas the Christian nature of CPT helps to create confidence because of a shared sense of monotheism.

More "People of the book" crap.

It stinks.

Recognize them and it for what it is.


From: Windsor | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 May 2005 04:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Panasonic, I repeat my Huh?

I honestly don't understand what you are on about.

Are you saying that the graffiti are not there?


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johnpauljones
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posted 23 May 2005 04:43 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
double post...sorry

[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 23 May 2005 04:44 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
this type of graffiti is disgusting. no ifs ands or buts.

One thing of interest though. I wonder when the pictures are from? How new are they?

when i moved my mouse over all of the pictures if i assume that the pictures are dated in the year month day format:
pic the dates are from 02-05-03, 02-12-28, 03-06-02, 03-08-07,03-11-02

Since they look like they are from 2002 and 2003 I wonder if the graffiti is still there? If the perpetrators were ever caught and punished.

[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 04:52 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hold JPJ, are you telling us that this isnt even a recent occurrence?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 May 2005 05:04 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, not that we know for sure -- and of course Macabee of all people is not going to spring into action until he has this documented -- we can all be assured of that, boy! -- but:

Gosh. If these were taken in 2003, that makes them almost two years old. Some of them not quite that old, but, y'know.

For all we know, Everybody in Hebron has changed his/her behaviour in the last twenty months or so. Everything is peace and goodness, and the settlers aren't teaching their children to die in war against the Palestinians.

Oh. Except we'll have to update that to spring 2004, which is when Mr Goldberg was doing his interviews. But, y'know, maybe?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 23 May 2005 05:04 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Hold JPJ, are you telling us that this isnt even a recent occurrence?

That is what i am asking. from running my curser over the pictures the dates appear to be a couple of years old.

The fact that it happened is disgusting but could our outrage be a couple of years out of date?

Could this be "old news"


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 May 2005 05:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is the Holocaust old news?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 23 May 2005 05:09 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Is the Holocaust old news?

Fair point skdadl but pictures from 60 years ago are not discussed as being current.

My point is that when i first saw the pictures i was outraged and disgusted and thought that they were from now.

I am still outraged. i am still disgusted but now i am also wondering if the same is still happening?

edited to add:

from the cpt hebron chronology"
hebron chronology

quote:
May 2002


May 1 Israeli forces withdrew from most areas of the Palestinian side of Hebron, but remained in the neighborhoods of Harit iSheik and Abu Sneineh, and maintained a sporadic presence in Bab iZaweyya. Soldiers put large concrete blocks across the bridge between Hebron and the village of Halhoul, cutting it off to vehicle traffic.

May 3 Le Anne Clausen, Greg Rollins, a Palestinian journalist, and a photojournalist from France, visited a Palestinian home on Tel Rumeida that Israeli settlers had spray painted graffiti on. The graffiti consisted of a star and fist, the symbol of the Kach* movement, and the words in English, "Watch out Fatima, we will rape all Arab women," "Exterminate the Muslims," and "Die Arab sand-niggers." Similar remarks were also written on the walls in Hebrew. The next-door neighbor's house was painted with a Kach symbol and signed 'JDL' for the Jewish Defense League. Another house next door, previously abandoned due to the frequent settler violence, had also been spray-painted and the inside burnt out. The graffiti in that house included a wall-size Kach symbol, an Arab man with exaggerated features hanging from a noose with a machine gun pointed at him, and a pig with the words, "Mohammed was a pig." [Pigs are considered unclean in both Jewish and Muslim culture]. The house was signed "Kahane Chai." Two more previously abandoned houses in the immediate area [across from the Beit Hadassah settlement] have been broken into and vandalized. Residents reported the vandalism took place Thursday. Both families have several young children. *(Kach, Kahane Chai, and the Jewish Defense League are all registered by the US State Department as terrorist organizations.)


[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 May 2005 05:12 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is the same still happening? In Hebron?

jpj, did you see my link to the New Yorker above, an issue dated almost exactly a year ago? Read it. It will curl your hair and iron your pants at the same time.

You think that those people have become lambs a year later?

And yes, for me those photographs from the Holocaust are entirely current. They will always be current. I do not see how anyone could ever think that that evidence of what human beings can do to one another can ever be other than current.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 23 May 2005 05:18 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
i just did read the article and to use your expression my hair did curl.

My point regarding pictures being current referred to the date that the picture was taken. not the relevance of the content of the picture.

as far as doves and lambs go. if peace will ever be achieved in the middle east. a peace where palestinians and israelis can live beside each other in 2 states internationally recognized as friends and neighbours then the hawks had better become doves


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 23 May 2005 05:19 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
At best this a troll designed to get reaction since it has nothing to do with the thread. At worst it is typical anti-Israeli Bullshit coming from the extreme left.[/QB]

It has everything to do with the thread as soon as we get past your argument about the origin of the graffiti. The thread is about standards of judgement - what is okay and not okay. The fact that the Israeli government funds, protects and assists a racist paramilitary in Hebron, which has frequently commited -- and/or has been linked to -- acts of terrorism, violence against non-combattants, racist graffitti, and hate speech of all sorts, and then moans and groans about the sermon given on PA television is key.

State sponsored racists. That's what we are talking about here. We're talking not about a 'lunatic fringe' (if you'd follow the argument I made) but about a distillation of certain attitudes that animate Israeli policy vis a vis Palestinians.

If only Palestinians who live surrounded by That Damned Wall, or pass through checkpoints, or who happen to live too close to a 'militant' were given the same benefit of the doubt that you are extending to a group of hateful racist bastards bought and paid for - not to mentioned armed - by the Israeli government and supporters worldwide.

[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 May 2005 05:22 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
jpj, I guess my point is that you are making the dates sound significant in a way that they are not, although I can think of a few people around here who are going to seize on you opportunistically.

9/11 is still current, jpj. So is Hebron two years ago. It's like that.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Panasonic
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posted 23 May 2005 06:01 PM      Profile for Panasonic        Edit/Delete Post
It just strikes me funny that this stuff is always written in English.

It just makes one wonder who wrote it and who was the intended audience?

google hebron and grafitti

The verbage just looks to Americanized for me.


From: Windsor | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 23 May 2005 06:12 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From earlier this month:
quote:

Everywhere in the old city, racist graffiti is scrawled vulgarly on the walls in Hebrew. The graffiti slogans range from the provocative statements such as “The people of Israel live!”, to the more threatening “Death to the Arabs!” and “Suck my cock Arabs”. The settlers tend to rampage through the old city during Jewish holidays, and spray-paint walls as if to tell the Palestinians that one day this will all be theirs. The graffiti just stays up on the walls.

http://aaron.resist.ca/?q=node/32

Maybe the Palestinians spraypainted in Hebrew as well.

I hope this shuts up the graffiti "denial" on this thread.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 23 May 2005 06:54 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Josh since it appears that this quote is directed at me. I never stated that racist anti arab and racist anti palestinian grafitti does not happen, did not happen.

I did question the date of the pictures that are linked in the first thread.

I did wonder if it was still happening in Hebron. If those who did it 2 years ago are "still doing it today"

I have never been to Hebron. I do not know anyone who lives in Hebron or actually has been to Hebron. That is why i wondered what is happening today.

If you think that I am denying the existance of graffiti you are wrong. If you think I am denying that it has happened you are wrong. If you think that I do not believe it will continue to happen you are wrong.

I am questioning when this particular set of racist graffiti appeared.

The real discussion should be about why such graffiti appears in the first place. Why such racism must be used to explain an opinion. Why as a society enough can never be done to stop racist graffiti.

Hell one only needs to remember that less than a year ago anti-jewish and anti-arab graffiti occured in Toronto.


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 23 May 2005 07:00 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
Fair point skdadl but pictures from 60 years ago are not discussed as being current.

Where did Coyote, who originally posted them, say that this was "current"?

Here's his original post:

quote:
The Christian Peacemaker Team in Hebron has recently set up a web-page detailing the kinds of graffiti written by settlers in Hebron. I am sure all babblers of all political stripes, and all positions on the question of Palestine and Israel, will stand united against the virulent racism propogated by the settler movement.

Photos.


He said the web site was set up recently. He didn't say those particular photos are recent.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 23 May 2005 08:06 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Josh since it appears that this quote is directed at me. I never stated that racist anti arab and racist anti palestinian grafitti does not happen, did not happen.


No, it wasn't primarily directed at you. If you read the thread from the top, you'll see at whom it was primarily directed.

From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 10:05 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
From earlier this month:

http://aaron.resist.ca/?q=node/32

Maybe the Palestinians spraypainted in Hebrew as well.

I hope this shuts up the graffiti "denial" on this thread.


What an ignorant thing to say. It plays with those emotions people have around Holocaust denial.

As for suggesting I have in any way denied the grafitti that is just as ignorant. You can say whatever you want but try to tell the truth.

The grfitti is ugly racist crap. I suspect that some extremist settlers may have done it , I never however accused anyone directly. To Josh and others that is denying that the grafitti exists. Stupid stupid lie and on top of that the Holocaust denial analogy makes it doubly sick.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 23 May 2005 10:17 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I used the word "denial" intentionally. Because that's what you've been doing in this thread. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you're uncomfortable with the consequences of your own double standards, you have no one but yourself to blame.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 May 2005 11:24 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No double standards here Josh only lies and more lies from you and others who need to paint me in a way that fits your stereotype. I have asked you to show this thread where I have denied anything related to the grafitti. I have acknowledged my suspicions but unlike some will not accuse. That's it my firend. I know its hard for you to accept the fact that you dig yourself deeper and deepr into the dreck of your accusations. So it is you who will have to live with your sorry attempts not me.

[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 May 2005 11:44 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh Al your preoccupation in deligitimizing me or anyone who supports the Jewish state is so obvious that people , if they are laughing can only guffaw at you.

I'm sorry to have to break this to you. Mac, you know those voices you hear? They're inside your head.

quote:
I know you love accusing Jewish Israelis of all bad things. That is frankly [sic] what you are all about. I and most other people who are fair-minded will hold to their suspicions but not outright accuse . Its just not considered civil.

I googled all over, but couldn't find a "rim-shot" smiley.

At least you got that out without swearing at me, as, sadly, you've done with so many others on this thread.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 24 May 2005 07:06 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
No double standards here Josh only lies and more lies from you and others who need to paint me in a way that fits your stereotype. I have asked you to show this thread where I have denied anything related to the grafitti. I have acknowledged my suspicions but unlike some will not accuse. That's it my firend. I know its hard for you to accept the fact that you dig yourself deeper and deepr into the dreck of your accusations. So it is you who will have to live with your sorry attempts not me.

[ 23 May 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


You assume that making insinuations and casting aspersions without proof is qualitatively different from denial. It is not. It is merely sneaky and dishonest.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 May 2005 07:31 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, this has probably gone on long enough.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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