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Author Topic: Live Sermon from Gaza Mosque...
Zaklamont
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posted 18 May 2005 11:58 AM      Profile for Zaklamont        Edit/Delete Post
The Simon Wiesenthal Center has called on Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to dismiss the head of Palestinian Television over the airing of a live sermon from a Gaza Mosque delivered by Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis which was filled with antisemitic attacks and denials of the Holocaust.

"The Jews are the cancer spreading all over the world...the Jews are a virus like AIDS hitting humankind...Jews are responsible for all wars and conflicts....Do not ask what Germany did to the Jews but what the Jews did to Germany. True, the Germans killed and burned Jews but the Jews exaggerate the numbers to gain propaganda advantages and sympathy…. " - Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis, May 13, 2005, Gaza


The Simon Wiesenthal Center has called on Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to dismiss the head of Palestinian Television over the airing of a live sermon from a Gaza Mosque delivered by Sheikh Ibrahim Mudairis which was filled with antisemitic attacks and denials of the Holocaust.

During the sermon, in the presence of uniformed Palestinian Authority police, the Sheik also asserted that God has predetermined that the Jewish problem will be solved with the extermination of the Jews, and that God has also predetermined that Christian-Islam interactions will end with today's Christian countries under Islam.

"Even in the days of Arafat, we did not see such a blatant antisemitic and Holocaust-denying canard broadcast on Palestinian TV, whose current chief was personally appointed by Mahmoud Abbas," charged Rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, Dean and Associate Dean of the Wiesenthal Center .


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Cueball
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posted 18 May 2005 02:57 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Even in the days of Arafat, we did not see such a blatant antisemitic and Holocaust-denying canard broadcast on Palestinian TV, whose current chief was personally appointed by Mahmoud Abbas," charged Rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, Dean and Associate Dean of the Wiesenthal Center .

Trying to rehabilitate Arafat now? Is it being suggested that he might have been more than the a demonic anti-semite the Wiesenthal Center has portrayed him to be. What? He might have been politcally strong enough to keep a lid on the more outrageous members of the Palestinian resistance.

I hear they paved Paradise and put a parking lot. Is it true?


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ohara
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posted 18 May 2005 04:44 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
The sermon in question is the worst anti-Jewish hatred I think I have heard in years.

Cueball I am surprised you are taking this so lightly. As a matter of fact I am surprised at how quiet many are here. I believe it is our responsibility to speak out strongly when such awful hatred is espoused.


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josh
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posted 18 May 2005 04:52 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First, I'm still waiting for a link. Secondly, if true, this is despicable, but probably not surprising. As long as Israel continues to oppress the Palestinians, you can expect this kind of venom. Finally, I recall extremists on the Israeli side, including ultra-Orthodox Rabbis, saying much the same thing about Arabs in general, and Palestinians in particular. That it was carried on television would be a distinquishing feature, I will concede.
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Agent 204
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posted 18 May 2005 04:53 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have no problem whatsoever condemning the sermon.

As regards the TV network, I'd like to know more about the context before I pass judgment. Were they covering it as a news story, in the way the CBC covered David Ahenakew's comments, or were they playing it as a message they endorsed? If the latter, I'd have no problem condemning them if they knew in advance what Mudairis was going to say.


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Cueball
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posted 18 May 2005 05:07 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
The sermon in question is the worst anti-Jewish hatred I think I have heard in years.

Cueball I am surprised you are taking this so lightly. As a matter of fact I am surprised at how quiet many are here. I believe it is our responsibility to speak out strongly when such awful hatred is espoused.


Are you really? Well then, perhaps if certain Zionist cliques hadn't been going around constructing elaborate and cleverly constructed arguements that encapsulated almost any criticism of Israel within the defintion of anti-semetism, to the point were anti-semetism has become almost blaise, then people would take more notice of the wolf when it actually appears.

A link please.


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writer
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posted 18 May 2005 05:12 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
News Alert Simon Wiesenthal Center
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Blind_Patriot
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posted 18 May 2005 05:15 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
web page

That is obviously Anti-Jewism of the worst kind. The peaceful Israels should not let this idiot disrupt their goal of peace.


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Agent 204
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posted 18 May 2005 05:18 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm. The links confirm what Zaklamont originally posted, but don't really answer my question about the role of the network.
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Cueball
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posted 18 May 2005 05:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That guy looks so nice in those robes. To bad he is a nut.

I think we should all congratulate Ariel Sharon on a job well done. It has taken time. It has cost the lives of many. It has meant that some people have had to do some morally unpleasant things, but they were for the greater cause. Let us all praise and thank Ariel for his clarity of vision and foresight.

But here it is today: Suceess! A Palestinian Muslim Cleric espousing European style antisemetism of a kind not heard since 1948. Clear and without the need for the kind of fudged translation, or complicated explanation required before. This is a remarkable achievement.

Bravo!

Now you can carry on with the business with destroying the lives of all Palestinians, justified by the egregious ramblings of this one nut case.


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miles
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posted 18 May 2005 08:26 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is disgusting. it is anti-semetism at its worst. I am saddened that this is just the latest example of religious leaders from around the world and from all faiths that continue to abuse the trust a congregation puts in their religious leadership to teach god's teachings in the 21st century.

It should not matter who uttered the filth or whom the filth was directed towards. Religious leaders whether they be jewish, christian, muslem, buddist or any other faith should not use their pulpit to spew racist filth.

The fact that any portion of society attempts this is reprehensible. The fact that these religious leaders think they can get away with this is disgusting.


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abnormal
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posted 18 May 2005 08:50 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A full transcript of the sermon can be found here.
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Cueball
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posted 19 May 2005 12:04 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is no reason to credit Memri translations as credible. A quick survey of the site will show that it is operated from a PO box in Washington, that there is not list of supporting agencies or individuals, and there is no persons identifed as staff. Given that no one seems interested in taking personal responsibility for the translations, one can only take Memri copy with a grain of salt.

One would even think that the lack of information regarding who is responsible for Memri is an indication that the organization acts as cover for some organization, government agency or lobby group that thinks that associating itself with the site might discredit the web site content.

It should be noticed, for instance, that while the purports to be a Middle East Media Research Insititute, the front page does not hold a single translation of anything in Hebrew from Israel.

Why a responsible news dissemination organziation would focus exclusively on translating material that reflects negatively only on one side of the well known dispute between Arabs and Israelis is anybody's guess.

I think this report should be investigated by responsible news reporters. Perhaps even ones who would consider putting their name to their copy.


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DrConway
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posted 19 May 2005 02:09 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wouldn't be surprised if the guy who did the sermon was paid off to do it. It smacks of exactly the kind of Karl Rove-style right-wing skullduggery that's so common in the United States.
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Panasonic
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posted 19 May 2005 11:23 AM      Profile for Panasonic        Edit/Delete Post
I know the Jews are a popular point but doesn't the other stuff bother anyone?

quote:
Christian-Islam interactions will end with today's Christian countries under Islam.


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 19 May 2005 11:33 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I wouldn't be surprised if the guy who did the sermon was paid off to do it.

They'd have to pay off the uniformed PA police too then.

And if this was not a real religious sermon, wouldn't they have to pay the crowd to not get up and leave?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 19 May 2005 01:47 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
I wouldn't be surprised if the guy who did the sermon was paid off to do it. It smacks of exactly the kind of Karl Rove-style right-wing skullduggery that's so common in the United States.

To what end?

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Cueball
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posted 19 May 2005 03:48 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Toward creating a propoganda environment condusive to further opression of Palestinians, obviously. Possible? Of course. Likely? Not really.

quote:
Originally posted by Panasonic:
I know the Jews are a popular point but doesn't the other stuff bother anyone?


Preposterous. It all bothers me.

The idea that I would have some kind of Christian loyalty that supercedes my concern for all people, whether Muslim, or Jewish or Christian, is indicative of your mind set.

Are you suggesting that I should be more concerned about Christians than Jews?


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Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 04:09 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
That guy looks so nice in those robes. To bad he is a nut.

I think we should all congratulate Ariel Sharon on a job well done. It has taken time. It has cost the lives of many. It has meant that some people have had to do some morally unpleasant things, but they were for the greater cause. Let us all praise and thank Ariel for his clarity of vision and foresight.

But here it is today: Suceess! A Palestinian Muslim Cleric espousing European style antisemetism of a kind not heard since 1948. Clear and without the need for the kind of fudged translation, or complicated explanation required before. This is a remarkable achievement.

Bravo!

.


Isnt this just a bit like blaming the victim? I have sadly heard it before, the Jews are all to blame for their misfortune. Jewish leaders bring on antisemitism. What crap. In fact such talk borders on antisemitism itself.

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Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 04:11 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
There is no reason to credit Memri translations as credible. A quick survey of the site will show that it is operated from a PO box in Washington, that there is not list of supporting agencies or individuals, and there is no persons identifed as staff. Given that no one seems interested in taking personal responsibility for the translations, one can only take Memri copy with a grain of salt.

One would even think that the lack of information regarding who is responsible for Memri is an indication that the organization acts as cover for some organization, government agency or lobby group that thinks that associating itself with the site might discredit the web site content.

It should be noticed, for instance, that while the purports to be a Middle East Media Research Insititute, the front page does not hold a single translation of anything in Hebrew from Israel.

Why a responsible news dissemination organziation would focus exclusively on translating material that reflects negatively only on one side of the well known dispute between Arabs and Israelis is anybody's guess.

I think this report should be investigated by responsible news reporters. Perhaps even ones who would consider putting their name to their copy.



Can you prove that memri in any way mis-translated this. I doubt it. An Arabic speaking friend of mine heard the sermon and verified it for me. But clearly it suits your agenda to deflect. Let's just recognize your attempt, sadly, for what it is.

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josh
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posted 19 May 2005 04:14 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If there were no state of Israel occupying Palestinian land and illegally settling it, it would be a blame the victim situation. However, as I noted above, the continuation of both the occupation and the illegal settlements serves as breeding ground for such hatred.
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Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 04:14 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
I wouldn't be surprised if the guy who did the sermon was paid off to do it. It smacks of exactly the kind of Karl Rove-style right-wing skullduggery that's so common in the United States.
More deflection...yes Doc he was paid off , I suppose that is conjecture huh? I mean God forbid you would just assume it was true. You are a disgrace!

BTW were all the bystanders also paid off? Has this Imam been in the employ of those evil Amerkans/Jews/whoever from the very beginning? Shame on you!!!!!


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Dex
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posted 19 May 2005 04:16 PM      Profile for Dex     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by caoimhin:

To what end?

[aside]One of the many strokes of (sick and cowardly) genius that both brought and kept G-Dub in power is that the Rove doctrine holds that the candidate/leader is never to get his hands dirty. What Rove does is have a friend of a friend launch an attack on the opposition or plant the seeds of doubt. It gets out in the public domain, but there are no direct links to the president, so he takes no heat while at the same time gaining support from the damage caused by the attack. If the heat gets turned up high enough, G-Dub might be forced into disavowing the remarks, but this rarely happens, and if it does, the disavowment takes place well after the damage is already done. One of the worst examples happened in the 2000 race for the republican nomination. McCain was mopping the floor with G-Dub. In response, various associations, at the direction of Rove, spread rumors of him having an illegitimate black daughter (he actually had a Bangladeshi adopted daughter), and a gay-lover, etc.

I suspect that Dr. C was suggesting that the sermon went forward with the indirect (but deniable) blessing of Abbas, everyone's favorite Holocaust denier. You get the friends of friends to whip the populace into an anti-Semitic frenzy while at the same time you can claim that you are doing your utmost to stop terrorism, yadda yadda yadda.[/aside]

Edited b/c I suffer from premature submitation.

[ 19 May 2005: Message edited by: Dex ]


From: ON then AB then IN now KS. Oh, how I long for a more lefterly location. | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 04:19 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
If there were no state of Israel occupying Palestinian land and illegally settling it, it would be a blame the victim situation. However, as I noted above, the continuation of both the occupation and the illegal settlements serves as breeding ground for such hatred.
Then you have little understanding of blaming the victim Josh. If the Imam wanted to hate he could have directed his comments at the evil Israelis...bad enough...instead he chose Jews...all jews...he just wants to rid the world of jews...and you say that's Sharon's fault huh? Does the good Imam have any responsibility here? Should the good Imam be held at all responsible or are you so keen on whitewashing this that you are prepared to accept his comments because "the Jews made him do it"? Give me a fucking break!!!!

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Cueball
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posted 19 May 2005 04:19 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

Can you prove that memri in any way mis-translated this. I doubt it. An Arabic speaking friend of mine heard the sermon and verified it for me. But clearly it suits your agenda to deflect. Let's just recognize your attempt, sadly, for what it is.

Well then, perhaps your Arabic speaking friend will do me the courtesy of writing a translation out. Of course your Arabic speaking friend will be professional enough to sign their name to the translation.

It can be published on the web, through any number of web publishers with an interest in the subject.


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 19 May 2005 04:21 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If there were no state of Israel occupying Palestinian land and illegally settling it, it would be a blame the victim situation. However, as I noted above, the continuation of both the occupation and the illegal settlements serves as breeding ground for such hatred.

Yes, a principle admirably demonstrated by such notorious hatemongers as Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and Bishop Desmond Tutu.

Man, nobody could hate and dehumanize like those guys!


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 19 May 2005 04:23 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I never said he shouldn't be responsible. Just as the extremist orthodox rabbis and others who make similar remarks about Arabs should be held responsible. That he said Jews rather than Israel is not surprising since he lives under occupation by a Jewish state. Maybe he should have praised the occupation and the Jewish state that is doing the occupying.
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Cueball
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posted 19 May 2005 04:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Yes, a principle admirably demonstrated by such notorious hatemongers as Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and Bishop Desmond Tutu.

Man, nobody could hate and dehumanize like those guys!


For every single one of those persons you can find another person who has turned their animosity into belicose hatred. Even Ghandi, said notoriously racist things about Black people, apparently.

Sometimes it is just a matter of who, and what you publicize.


The Palestinian Ghandi

quote:
"Where is the Palestinian Gandhi?" is a quite popular question, especially abroad. You won't often hear it asked (with the inevitable self-righteous shrug) here in Israel: after all, the Israeli culture itself worships violence, with the semantic field of "war" being the richest in the modern Hebrew language, with militarism as the state religion, and with popular wisdom expressed in rules of thumb such as "where force won't do, try more force."

But Americans love the Gandhi riddle. While their governments give Israel gigantic military aid, private Americans with the best intentions – and Britons such as actor Ben Kingsley – translate the film Gandhi into Arabic and screen it all over the occupied territories as an example for the Palestinians to follow.

The intentions of "the Gandhi Project" must be noble. And though international law and conventions unambiguously acknowledge the right of occupied peoples to use violence against their oppressors – just like guerrilla fighters did under Nazi occupation – the question whether violence or nonviolence serves their cause better is for the Palestinians to decide. There are, of course, several convincing arguments in favor of abandoning the violent resistance, most notably the huge benefits that Israel draws from portraying the Palestinians as "terrorists" to legitimate the use of its overwhelming military superiority against them.


Also, recently the IDF has admitted spiking Palestininian demostrations with stone throwing Israeli agents, so it is apparent that Israel is not interested encouraging passive resistance among Palestinians, but is actually engaged in brinksmanship and provocation toward the end of inspiring Palestinian backlash, to further justify Israeli abuse.

[ 19 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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josh
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posted 19 May 2005 04:27 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Yes, a principle admirably demonstrated by such notorious hatemongers as Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and Bishop Desmond Tutu.

Man, nobody could hate and dehumanize like those guys!


Or the Algerians, Vietnamese and Irish. I certainly am I support of the non-violent strategy of a Gandhi or Mandela. But that the Palestinians have not adopted that strategy doesn't mitigate actions taken by Israel.


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josh
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posted 19 May 2005 04:33 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey Mac, you worried about religious leaders and the media? How about the head of a church of over a billion people who was a member of the Hitler Youth, and is now representing a church that brought the Jews the Inquisition and the ghetto, among other delights. Any thoughts on that?
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Mr. Magoo
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posted 19 May 2005 04:33 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Or the Algerians, Vietnamese and Irish. I certainly am I support of the non-violent strategy of a Gandhi or Mandela. But that the Palestinians have not adopted that strategy doesn't mitigate actions taken by Israel.

Absolutely. Israel is responsible for what Israel does. Palestine is responsible for what Palestine does.

The only reason I posted is because I will always question any assumption or assertion that "This must lead to that", especially when "This" tends to lead to "that" in a minority rather than a majority of cases. To be specific, while I'm certain that the occupation has led to many Palestinians hating the Israelis, I believe that that hatred is still a choice, and my support for this comes from individuals who, in similar situations, didn't allow themselves to get drawn into hatred. They fought back, certainly, but they didn't descend into hatred.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 May 2005 04:37 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But there is an active Israeli campaign to breed hatred, against itself, though provocation. They even plant agent in crowds who thows stones at the IDF -- they have admitted it. Israel bears responsibiiity for that.

You contest the idea that it is possible to drive people mad, by abusing them?

Even if their was a Palestinian Ghandi, he/she would not be able to lead a peacful demonstration of pacifists, at least not one that you would see on your TV. You would see the usual stone throwing mayhem and tear gas.

And Sharon could count on you to come up with this or that explanation for how it is the Palestinians "hot heads" who started it.

[ 19 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 19 May 2005 04:43 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But there is an active Israeli campaign to breed hatred, against itself, though provocation. Israel bears responsibiiity for that.

I would agree that they bear responsibility for trying. They cannot bear responsibility for the results. And they certainly can't bear any responsibility for some Sheikh choosing to try and make the hatred worse.

One of the things I had to do in my life as part of the growing up process was realize that nobody could "make me angry" without my participation. They couldn't "frustrate me" without my help. In short, I had to realize that there's always a choice, and that by placing responsibility for my feelings onto someone else (eg: "YOU MADE me mad! YOU MADE me frustrated!") I was ignoring my own agency in the matter.

So, ya. Israel is responsible for what Israel does. But not for how Palestinians choose to react. We may consider their choice of reaction to be understandable, or we may not, but we're getting way off the mark if we start assigning responsibility for Palestinian actions, attitudes or choices to Israel.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 04:43 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Well then, perhaps your Arabic speaking friend will do me the courtesy of writing a translation out. Of course your Arabic speaking friend will be professional enough to sign their name to the translation.

It can be published on the web, through any number of web publishers with an interest in the subject.


And will Babble pay him the going rate for translations?

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Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 04:44 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
I never said he shouldn't be responsible. Just as the extremist orthodox rabbis and others who make similar remarks about Arabs should be held responsible. That he said Jews rather than Israel is not surprising since he lives under occupation by a Jewish state. Maybe he should have praised the occupation and the Jewish state that is doing the occupying.
More deflection

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Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 04:45 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
Hey Mac, you worried about religious leaders and the media? How about the head of a church of over a billion people who was a member of the Hitler Youth, and is now representing a church that brought the Jews the Inquisition and the ghetto, among other delights. Any thoughts on that?
More deflection

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Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 04:46 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
But there is an active Israeli campaign to breed hatred, against itself, though provocation. They even plant agent in crowds who thows stones at the IDF -- they have admitted it. Israel bears responsibiiity for that.


[ 19 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]



Can you show us this admission. Thanks.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 May 2005 04:49 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the circumstances that caused your anger, are not in any way similar to the kind that Palestinians have been exposed to for 2 generations. Your girlfriend dumping you is not the same as have someone break your knuckles. Sorry, you can not apply civil anger management strategies to marshall law environement.

We are talking PTSD on a societal level.

Further, you refuse to acknowledge the reality that Irsaeli agents infiltrate Palestinian demonstrations with agents who throw stones at IDF regular army troops, and that your entire impression of Palestinian actions is impacted through that propoganda operation.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 19 May 2005 04:49 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
More deflection

More evasion.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 19 May 2005 04:50 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Yes, a principle admirably demonstrated by such notorious hatemongers as Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and Bishop Desmond Tutu.

Conflating individuals with countries, Mr. Magoo?
This guy isn't Palestine. There are people working at nonviolent resistance in Palestine.
But at the same time, Gandhi wasn't India. There was plenty of violent resistance to the British as well, and some of it was certainly by people who hated the British, who more than likely hated Europeans and whites in general.

Similarly, Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu are not South Africa. The ANC--what an utterly nonviolent bunch of guys and gals! I'm sure none of them hated white Afrikaners.

In fact, hatred and venom was bred in all the countries you mention sterling representatives of. Some individuals managed not to get sucked into it, and were able to exert major influence and largely avoid a bloodbath. Doesn't mean the hatred wasn't there, nor that oppression didn't cause it.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 19 May 2005 04:52 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
And will Babble pay him the going rate for translations?

Mac, you know what the going rate is on babble?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 May 2005 04:59 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

Can you show us this admission. Thanks.

Sure: Ha'aretz

quote:
Military sources charged that Barakeh and the commander of the forces at the scene had not exchanged words; the sources added that the undercover forces had only started throwing stones after Palestinian youths had adopted such tactics. "Stone-throwing by the undercover forces is part of the way in which they operate in such instances," the sources said.

Hacohen notes: that "the source" quoted in this story is identified in Ha'aretz's Hebrew edition as "Lieutenant Colonel Tzahi."

Confirming the general details of this story by Uri Avnery -- A Tale of Two Demonstrations:

quote:
At other places, the rampage was even worse. Muhammad Hatib, one of the village chiefs, noticed a man who, with his face covered, started to throw stones at the soldiers. He ran towards him, shouting: "We decided not to throw stones! If you want to throw stones, do it in your own village, not ours! What village do you come from, anyway?" The man turned towards him and attacked him, at the same time calling out to his associates, tearing the handkerchief from his face and donning a police cap.

Thus the secret came out and was also documented by the cameras: "Arabized" undercover soldiers had been sent into action. These started throwing stones at the security people in order to provide them with a pretext to attack us. The moment they were uncovered, they turned on the demonstrators nearest to them, drew revolvers and started to arrest them. Later on, when it became clear that the events had been recorded by foreign television crews, the police officially confirmed that throwing stones is the method used by "Arabized" undercover soldiers so as to merge with the crowd.


quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
And will Babble pay him the going rate for translations?

So your source is also unverifiable. Fine. All of mine are signed by there authors, and sources identified.

[ 19 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 04:59 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly Skdadl
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 May 2005 05:00 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know the going rate!

How be we pay him what I get paid to moderate threads like this.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 19 May 2005 05:02 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, except, Mac -- I'm here.

You're here too. And we're not getting paid, are we.

That's because we're invaluable.

Your friend too stuck up to join us?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 05:02 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Sure: Ha'aretz


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Military sources charged that Barakeh and the commander of the forces at the scene had not exchanged words; the sources added that the undercover forces had only started throwing stones after Palestinian youths had adopted such tactics. "Stone-throwing by the undercover forces is part of the way in which they operate in such instances," the sources said.
[ 19 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


"Sources" are an admission from the Israelis??? Right.

As for my translator, I never said he verified it for Babble I said her verified it for ME. I said he verified the memri translation for ME. Get your own translator Im sure he/she will tell you that Memri's version is correct.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 May 2005 05:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The source is Lieutenant Colonel Tzahi, as identified in the Hebrew edition of the same story that appeared in the article I posted. Are you saying that Ha'retz is lying?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 May 2005 05:08 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have provided multiple sources confirming the events I have described. All persons are identified and all original article are signed by their authors.

None of this is true of anything you have presented.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 05:12 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
The source is Lieutenant Colonel Tzahi, as identified in the Hebrew edition of the same story that appeared in the article I posted. Are you saying that Ha'retz is lying?
No Im saying that I didnt see this Lieuteneant being quoted by name in your Post. Military Sources are meaningless. Remain so until you can find it published directly your word does not suffice sad to say

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 05:13 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I have provided multiple sources confirming the events I have described. All persons are identified and all original article are signed by their authors.

None of this is true of anything you have presented.


You have presented NO Israeli spokespersons making such claims

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 May 2005 05:17 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nice try. I identified my translator of the Hebrew edition of Ha'retz as Ran Hacohen. The piece is linked to above. The IDF source is a Lieutenant Colonel. Hacohen states:

quote:
Now think for yourself: why on earth should an undercover agent provocateur throw stones after some demonstrators do so? Give me one reason. Obviously, the Israeli officer (identified in Ha'aretz's Hebrew edition as "Lieutenant Colonel Tzahi") is lying on this point.

Your translators and sources are all nameless shadows.

[ 19 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 05:22 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This Lieutennat never said that IDF provokes stone-throwing. Frankly Im confused at what he says at all.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 May 2005 05:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He says that undecover agents throw stones at IDF soldiers, and that is part of military practice.

Whether or not they instigate stone throwing is not even really an issue, as extra stone throwing by agents might very well escalate a few controllable incident of stone throwing into a wider melee. Either way it is brinksmanship and engineered provocation calculated to increase tension and violence.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 08:13 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, frankly I dont read it that way. I dont mean to be difficult but I just dont.

[ 19 May 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 May 2005 08:19 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Stone-throwing by the undercover forces is part of the way in which they operate in such instances," the sources (Liuetenant Lieutenant Colonel Tzahi) said.

What is unclear?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 May 2005 09:58 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is without context.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 19 May 2005 10:58 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Cueball, frankly I dont read it that way. I dont mean to be difficult but I just dont.

[ 19 May 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


Of course you don't read it that way. You can't. If Your Royal Obtuseness did, you would have to concede that your lily-white Israeli Government that can do no wrong actually is just as flawed and just as prone to all the ills that affect other governments 'round the world.

*pats Macabee on head* You just go right on being in fantasyland there, okay?

Re: Right-wing skullduggery.

It's a classic tactic for right-wing politicians in the USA to pay off someone to misrepresent center-left positions by taking up for them in an extreme way. Then, when the inevitable shitstorm happens, the centrist or left candidate is left on the defensive because one of his or her ostensible supporters has been filmed/taped saying something so ludicrous nobody with a working brain should believe really was true.

Nonetheless, the right-wing echo chamber media being what it is in the USA, inflates these incidents and persuades many otherwise intelligent people that yes, Democrat candidates really do want to sell the USA out to Al Qaeda.

In the old days it was simpler. You just called the Democrat a communist.

Anyway, how this applies to Israel and this little kerfluffle. What's suspicious to me is that given the surveys of the basis of anti-Semitism (or anti-Judaism if we wish to avoid the unusual linguistic problem of the word "semite" referring to both peoples), it is not for the most part identical to the Euro-North American type which is rooted primarily in Neo-Nazi ideology.

Yet the aforementioned cleric used words which are virtually identical to what far-right-wing movements use in Europe.

Somehow I doubt the cultural context travels that well. Keep in mind I have no doubt he said the words, but I highly doubt he just decided to say them all on his own initiative.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 20 May 2005 01:13 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
It is without context.

Context:



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 20 May 2005 08:18 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

Somehow I doubt the cultural context travels that well. Keep in mind I have no doubt he said the words, but I highly doubt he just decided to say them all on his own initiative.


I see Doc, so what are you saying? Dont be your usual obtuse self and tell us exactly WHO you believe MADE the poor Sheik say those terrible things (this should be good).

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 20 May 2005 08:53 AM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey Hey Macabee..thought you'd seen the Bacamee?

Talk about rotten timing! Israel just finished awarding medals for the Lavon Affair, the false-flag operation that saw Israel attack Britons and Americans with the goal of scapegoating Egypt.


From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 20 May 2005 08:58 AM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nister since the Lavan affair originally took place in the 1950's and the sheik being discussed in this thread used rhetoric right out of the 1950's maybe we all just jumped back in time to the '50s.

Because in the '50s language like what the Sheik was written off as an insolated incident where most would not really care.

In my opinion we should not be trying to find the reason why the sheik said what he did. Or even attempt to justify the circumstances around what he said. rather we should condemn hate from a "man of god" and hate from the religious leaders as just what it is hate.


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 20 May 2005 09:15 AM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or..maybe we should be asking Israel why perfidy is "medal-worthy".
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 20 May 2005 09:52 AM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or we could get back to the discussion of religious intollerance.

It seems at times that when a religious leader outside of the middle east says hatefull things it is condemed as hate. For example, when Fred Phelps opens his homophobic mouth and utters filth directed towards minorities and gays and lesbians the result is outrage.

I am left wondering why the same reaction is not found here. Why does the middle east conflict of which I have always stated my hope for a just, honest and equal peace. But why does the middle east conflict cloud ones reaction to a religious leader spouting filth and hatred from a pulpit.

Have we as a society become so polorized in our opinions, feelings and sympathies to one side or the other that we can not look at hatred, racism and filth from a religious leader and simply call it what it is?

WHen any religious leader abusest he pulpit it should never be allowed. Whether that leader is Christian, Jewish, Muslem, Hindu, Sikh, Buddist, Jehova Witness or of any other faith.

What the Sheik said is racist filth and should not be condoned. It should only be condemed.


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 20 May 2005 11:07 AM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No one's condoning his statements. Are you condoning Israel's honoring base murder?
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 20 May 2005 11:15 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Miles you are so right but Nistor and Conway and possibly others seem to have their own reasons to excuse the Sheik or at the very least blame someone else for his outrages. Sadly this is all too typical of those who try to hang reponsibility for such things on Israel. It is far to easy to blame the Jews oops I mean the Israelis than accept the fact that this Sheik is promoting hatred
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 20 May 2005 12:53 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by nister:
Hey Hey Macabee..thought you'd seen the Bacamee?

Talk about rotten timing! Israel just finished awarding medals for the Lavon Affair, the false-flag operation that saw Israel attack Britons and Americans with the goal of scapegoating Egypt.


By Way Of Deception
quote:
Originally posted by macabee:
Cueball, frankly I dont read it that way. I dont mean to be difficult but I just dont.
More deflection

Edited to add:

Hey that rhyms, sing it. By way of deception, more deflection... By way of deception, more deflection

[ 20 May 2005: Message edited by: Blind_Patriot ]


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 20 May 2005 01:13 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
None so blind..Blind, as those that will not read.

Which of us will not address reprehensible conduct? I don't condone the mosque sermon, and I don't seek to excuse it. How do you feel about giving state honours to murderers?


From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Panasonic
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posted 20 May 2005 01:15 PM      Profile for Panasonic        Edit/Delete Post
I agree with Miles.

My point to Cueball is that this isn't just about the Palestinian/Jewish dynamic.

What ever it is today its much bigger than just P/I.

quote:
and that God has also predetermined that Christian-Islam interactions will end with today's Christian countries under Islam.

To keep the blinders on and only see from the context of Israel/Palestine is naive.


From: Windsor | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 20 May 2005 01:24 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Miles you are so right but Nistor and Conway and possibly others seem to have their own reasons to excuse the Sheik or at the very least blame someone else for his outrages. Sadly this is all too typical of those who try to hang reponsibility for such things on Israel. It is far to easy to blame the Jews oops I mean the Israelis than accept the fact that this Sheik is promoting hatred

Oh, he is promoting hatred. I'm just wondering who stands behind him, and who stands to benefit the most from this kerfluffle.

Nothing that happens in Israel is simple, and we in the West are being asked to view it through lenses that are not culturally context-sensitive, so nobody asks questions when a mosque leader (I can't remember if the term imam is used for that or for the Big Cheese that is supposed to represent Islam in an entire country) uses terms and meanings that are entirely a product of the European/North American outlook.

It may surprise you to realize, Macabee, that when you take into account cross-cultural effects, things become a lot more understandable and also, it becomes a lot more questionable when a member of one culture uses the terms and referents of another when speaking to members of his or her own culture.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 20 May 2005 01:28 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doc why am I surprised to see that you did not answer the question.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 20 May 2005 02:15 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Oh, he is promoting hatred. I'm just wondering who stands behind him, and who stands to benefit the most from this kerfluffle.


Why should it matter? Hatred is hatred. Racism is racism. Religious intollerance is religious intolerance.

quote:
Originally posted by Nister:
Which of us will not address reprehensible conduct? I don't condone the mosque sermon, and I don't seek to excuse it. How do you feel about giving state honours to murderers?

This is a topic for another thread as it does not relate to the question of religious intollerance and racial hatred from a pulput.

But Nister to answer your question about state honours to murderers. I am against anyone who honours murderers. Whether it be nations that give medals to murderers, states that financially assist the families of suicide bombers. States that harbour terrorists and reward their security services for doing so.

But let us be clear. The State of Israel is not the first to award medals and honours and will not be the last nation to do so. If you want to critisize the awarding of honours and medals for actions up to and including murder then let us do that.

Let us first condemn Canada for here is a recent example of medals and honours given to those who have murdered:

Canada awarded medals to those pilots who took part in the NATO bombings of the former Yugoslavia -- should we protest those medals?

Canada gave medals to snipers and members of JTF2 who were in Afghanistan. Should we get those medals back?

What about Canada in Somalia? What about those Canadian personel that were on the ground in Iraq War II on loan to the USA and Britain through exchange programs? They have recieved or will receive medals for services undertaken.

It seems simplistic to raise the issue of the State of Israel giving medals in this thread. Doing so without mentioning Canadian involvement in similar acts is nothing but a smokescreen in this thread.

Once again this thread is about religious intollerance. Not the nation it occured in, not the people it was directed towards.

Sadly and maybe even simply this is about a religious leader who uses their pulput and position to spew racist filth to an audience.

I do wonder if the next time the president of Jim Jones University opens his mouth and utters racits and homophobic remarks if we can just chalk it up to the fact that it occured in the southern USofA and that is to be expected since it has gone on for many years and that to understand the south you have to understand that their is a larger issue of racism and homophobia that is rooted in that area.

Bullshit. the next time this happens at Jim Jones U or from the mouth of Fred Phelps and others we will rise up and call it what it is. We will call it racist and demand an apology rather that saying that it happened because of a larger issue that is occuring in the region.


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 20 May 2005 02:56 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Miles, come back to the five-and-dime. Israel's actions are worse than some asshole's words, and the blessing of racist murders by the state is intolerance personified.
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 20 May 2005 03:02 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nister sorry but i believe that this is about religious intollerace not about Israel and not about medals and honours.

Once you lay equal blame to those other nations that also reward and commend murder by members of the armed forces and show its direct relevance and correlation then i will accept the point of its relevance in this thread.

IMHO the 2 issues are in no way shape or form connected. Unless of course the diatribe of filth uttered by the religious leader was a result of the medals being awarded? me thinks it was not connected.

[ 20 May 2005: Message edited by: miles ]


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 20 May 2005 03:28 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I put them together because Simon Weisanthal Inst. wants Abbas to condemn the sermon. We're discussing the merit of that position, and I question the moral authority of the petitioner, because of Lavon. If you are not selectively indignant about intolerance, you would get it.
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 20 May 2005 03:34 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nister I am many things but i do not think that i am as you called it :
quote:
selectively indignant about intolerance, you would get it.

I am against all religious fundementalism and religious fanatacism. I am against all clergy that use their pulput to spew filth and hatred and or remarks unworthy of the place they occupy regardless of the religion. If you are asking me whether i have ever publically called for a Rabbi to apologize for remarks. The answer is yes I have. it was after a Rosh Hashannah serman at a synagogue I attended when in Grad School. I can tell you that it is not a lot of fun to be a guest at a place of worship attending your first service there and calling the clergy on the carpet because you thought they uttered a remark that was not worthy of their position.

Have you ever done similar?

But back to the medal discussion. Is not the proper parallel asking asking the Simon Wiesenthal Centre to protest the Israeli government awarding of the medals in addition to its calling upon Abbas?

Do you know if they have or have not done so?

edited to add:

I would be more than happy to contribute to a thread about how governments award those who should not be awarded. I say as I did earlier that we should start with Canada and move out from there

[ 20 May 2005: Message edited by: miles ]


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 20 May 2005 03:58 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whatever the reasoning, this is vile stuff. Of course, it goes without saying that there is equally virulent racism directed towards Arabs - under the protection and sanction of the Israeli government and military.

But no matter. Outright condemnation of this anti-Jewish filth.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 20 May 2005 04:10 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why should it matter?
Why should it matter, Miles? It’s really quite simple; it has to. Understand, one needs to be fully marinated in the “misunderstood” sheik’s culture and history to fully appreciate that he means not what he says. You see, Miles, given that the imam’s words and themes are actually pulled from the playbook of the real ‘evil-doers’ and villains whose lethal hatred and racism unquestionably means something, he can’t really know his tiresome anti-semetic words are hurtful/racist since they are imported and foreign and, don’t you know, he had better read from the script ‘or else’. He doesn’t own those words, someone else does. Someone else is responsible.
But don’t worry. You don’t need to be familiar with the complex history, culture and religion of Israeli’s or Jews to point the finger at them when they get out of line. They ARE responsible, collectively speaking.
You see, Miles, it is not a two-way street. Hate and racism and bigotry are inventions of white Europeans and only their hate and racism and bigotry should matter. Jews and Israelis too. To suggest anything differently would expose your own racist and bigoted leanings. And don’t give me any talk about ‘double-standards’, okay! Everyone knows we hold some to higher standards than others.
And since we are talking about starting other threads, perhaps someone who has links or image files of rabbis anywhere (not just in Israel) doing the same as the ‘untouchable-because-of-irrational hatred’ or ‘it-was-the-guy-behind-the-curtain-who-made-me-do-it’ or ‘culturally-A-O-K’ sheik could start a parallel thread.

From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 20 May 2005 04:17 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course it matters caoimhin but background history pales in comparison to the fact that what really matters is that another clergy member has abused their position in society. Everytime a clergy person does this it is reprehensible
From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Panasonic
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 20 May 2005 04:25 PM      Profile for Panasonic        Edit/Delete Post
caoimhin,

You play a Relativists game and then try and change the topic. If it makes you feel better find a rant from a rabbi and post it and then we can talk about what the rabbi said.


quote:
racist and bigoted leanings

You don't like what Miles wrote so you jump to racist and bigoted?


From: Windsor | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 20 May 2005 04:40 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pssst. C was being sarcastic. One could wish s/he would do the gravity of the subject and the real humans involved more honour.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 20 May 2005 04:49 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
it is not a lot of fun to be a guest at a place of worship attending your first service there and calling the clergy on the carpet because you thought they uttered a remark that was not worthy of their position.

Have you ever done similar?


The one time I had a perfect chance to do this, I didn't, but that was partly because I was seven years old.

Still, I knew it should be done. I was furious, all the way through that service, just burning with anger. I can remember so much of it, as if it happened yesterday.

United Church minister imported from Northern Ireland, Orange Day 1952, Medicine Hat, non-stop anti-Catholic jokes all the way through, pure evil.

If I could go back and denounce him now, I would. Such an Ian Paisley of a man. Such a Little Man.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 20 May 2005 05:19 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I continue to be amazed at the lengths people will go here to lay the blame for the Sheik's words at the hands of the Jews oops I mean Israelis.

Thank you Miles for pointing out some of the myriad of inconsistancies we have to wade through here.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 20 May 2005 05:21 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why do you keep saying "Jews oops Israelis," Mac?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 20 May 2005 05:39 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mac, I actually agree with you that any explanation (not justification; there is no justification) of the the sheik's words should come after a strong denunciation thereof. But this is what we are talking about when we say you insinuate anti-Semitism without basis. No one here has echoed, approved of, or condoned the sheik's words. Until they do, your insinuations remain the worst form of slander.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 20 May 2005 05:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Panasonic:
I agree with Miles.

My point to Cueball is that this isn't just about the Palestinian/Jewish dynamic.

What ever it is today its much bigger than just P/I.

To keep the blinders on and only see from the context of Israel/Palestine is naive.


I agree. There is something much bigger going on. There is a sophisticated and well organized campaign designed to vilify all Arab and Muslim people through drawing attention to the most regressive fringe elements of Arab thought, and through repetition, create the impression that they are the central thesis of Arab and Muslim thinking.

Earlier in this thread I supported this view by pointing to the fact that the sole traceable source for both the translation and the video link used as a basis for the majority of the discussion that has going forward on this thread is Middle East Media Research Insititute. I asked, that if the intentions and purposes of this organization were unquestionable, why:

  • 1) Not a single person will associate their name with MEMRI as staff?
  • 2) Why no one will associate themselves with the translation used as the basis for this discussion?
  • 3) Why no one is identified on the MEMRI site as a donors to the organization?
  • 4) Why there are no translations of sources from Hebrew and Israel?
  • 5) Why every single piece linked to from the home page can easily be used reflects the worst aspect of Arab thought, at the exclusion of anything remotely positive, or even anything that might also reflect negatively upon Israelis?

Notice, please, that all though the Wiesenthal Center news bulletin is the initial article of this thread, and that the Jerusalem Post article is based on that, neither the Weisenthal Center not the JP trace the source of their information. MEMRI is all we have that is verifiable.

I say this, not to dispute the veracity of the translation, which I will treat as credibile for the sake of arguement, but because I want to know why MEMRI only selects pieces that negatively reflect on Arabs and Muslims for distribubtion, and who they are so that it might be discerned what their possible motives might be for doing so.

No one here has yet answered any of these questions.

What I am saying Panasonic is that it seems very much like there is a well-financed campaign designed to vilify Arabs and Muslims, in order to justify a whole series of repressive policies, not just in Israel, but throughout the world on behalf of US interests, and that one of its methods is to distort reality, not by lying but by providing only part of the truth for public consumption.

Secondly, I established a case that shows that Israel itself actively pursues a policy of provocation designed to encourage tensions, and that this is not just a random policy, nor the acts of a few individuals, but part of establishes IDF operational practice. In kind, I postulated that this speech is just another exmaple of how this policy has worked to feed the seeds of intollerance and conflict.

Why so? Because there are many Israeli thinkers that are 100% sure they win the military conflict, (as they have done numerous times) but not at all sure they will win a negotiatied peace. It is an Israeli saying, is it not: "If force doesn't work, try more force."

[ 20 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 20 May 2005 06:24 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry I can't better attend here. I award half-points to Miles on the relevance thing, I am stretching..but..I remind you that the SW Inst. petitioned Abbas, who heads the Palestinian Authority. They think it's politics, not religion, and so do I.
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 20 May 2005 07:38 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Power comes from the barrel of a gun, or so the man said.

Foul words like those of this preacher must be considered in light of the power to act upon them. Is there antisemitism in Palestinian society? Surely. Can they do much with it? Not really. Is there anti-Arab racism in Israeli society? You bet. Are they acting on it daily through administrative and military means? Yes. Like every kid knows: "Sticks and stones..."

It's not odd for someone to hate the person who has their boot on their neck. It's also not odd for the person with the boots to hate the owner of the neck they're standing on.

Anyone who has seen a schoolyard fight between the bully and his latest muse knows this to be true. I'm sure even Mac and Ohara have seen a schoolyard fight. (See, the left can do the whole 'plain speech' thing, too).

What's the bigger issue? That the guy on his back hates the bully, or the fact that he's blue in the face from lack of air?

Israel's champions would not only have the kid on his back not fight back, they would also hope that he would lay there politely.

Tell this preacher to shut up and think again. He's clearly a fool and not helping anyone. But let's not lose sight of who's zooming who.

[ 20 May 2005: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 20 May 2005 08:11 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Doc why am I surprised to see that you did not answer the question.

Since when do you ever answer straightforwardly asked questions? I'm just a student of the master of deflection and obscurantism, big guy.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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Babbler # 5617

posted 20 May 2005 11:17 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
This sheik's sermon is vile (although to me clergyman's sermon and vile are tautologious). Here, we have a very clear case of bigotry and racim, and should be denounced uncontrovertially.

HOWEVER, one should keep in mind, the sheik's words represent the sheik only, and his those who applaud him, not all of Plaestine, as Rufus has already said. Throughout the Palestinian-Zionist conflict we have seen the double standard: for very venom uttered by an Israeli, we have a barrage of aplogists rushing in to claim that his words are isolated and that he is in the minority, and that he is delusional, etc, even when many times, the authors of the bigotry happen to be high ranking Israeli officials and prime ministers. On the other hand, when an obscure Palestinian from a remote village in the end of the earth spews racist crap, we have the same apologists rushing to use him as a figure head and as a representative of all the Palestinians.

To the same people: every Israeli racist is an anomaly, every Palestinian racist epitomizes Palestine.

Sorry for the bad spelling.


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
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posted 21 May 2005 03:08 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Mac, I actually agree with you that any explanation (not justification; there is no justification) of the the sheik's words should come after a strong denunciation thereof. But this is what we are talking about when we say you insinuate anti-Semitism without basis. No one here has echoed, approved of, or condoned the sheik's words. Until they do, your insinuations remain the worst form of slander.
And what are we to make of Conway's "insinuations" that some type of hidden force must be behind the Sheik's actions? Who pray tell must he be talking about?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 21 May 2005 03:11 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No one here has yet answered any of these questions.


Because these questions are irrelevant
to the issue at hand. If you do not question the authenticity of the translation yet wish to discuss who or what MEMRI is then open another thread.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 21 May 2005 08:35 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Doc why am I surprised to see that you did not answer the question.

Talk about chutzpah!


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 May 2005 08:56 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I think this is close enough to 100 posts.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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