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Author Topic: its is getting harder and harder to take this shit
Cueball
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posted 23 April 2005 04:02 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Iraq Crash Survivor Said Shot on Video

quote:
The man shown being shot to death in the video was the Bulgarian pilot, the company that owned the Mi-8 aircraft said Friday. The slain pilot was identified as Lyubomir Kostov, said Mihail Mihailov, manager of the Heli Air company.


"The man shot on the video is definitely Lyubomir Kostov, the pilot of the chopper," Mihailov told The Associated Press in Sofia, Bulgaria, after seeing the video on the Internet.



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Rufus Polson
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posted 23 April 2005 05:57 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Frankly seems fairly normal for any country with an insurgency. I mean, I guess I'm sorry these mercenaries died, and certainly it was unpleasant to shoot them down in cold blood. But I don't know what anybody expects. They're unofficial military, so they're targets. And everyone on all sides seems to routinely kill opponents who pose no threat. Heck, the Americans routinely kill innocent bystanders who pose no threat--at least these guys were in the game, as it were.
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Anchoress
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posted 23 April 2005 06:03 AM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm 100% with you, Rufus. I think it totally sucks that these people died, but they are there to make a premium buck off the misery of 100s of thousands of Iraqis and the destabilisation of their country. If my country were invaded the way Iraq was I pray that I would have the guts and the opportunity to do the same.
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Hephaestion
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posted 23 April 2005 10:47 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I have no sympathy whatsoever for mercenaries.
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Agent 204
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posted 23 April 2005 10:52 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't have much sympathy either, though I think shooting prisoners is just plain wrong.
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Anchoress
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posted 23 April 2005 11:00 AM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who shot prisoners?
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Agent 204
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posted 23 April 2005 11:16 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The insurgents, it would seem:
quote:

he cameraman tells Kostov, whose face is visible, to step back.

"Go! Go!" he shouts.

Kostov then tries to walk, limping with his back to the insurgents, who say something to him that makes him turn around. Kostov raises his hands to somebody off camera as if gesturing to them to stop what they are about to do.

"Carry out God's verdict," someone is heard saying, and the militants shoot Kostov at point-blank range, continuing even after he falls to the ground. One gunman shouts, "Allahu akbar!"



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Anchoress
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posted 23 April 2005 11:18 AM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The insurgents shot people, but my question is, were they prisoners? What's the definition of 'prisoner'?
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Américain Égalitaire
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posted 23 April 2005 11:32 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Curious.

This may be a war withouth quarter but I would think such videos would play well to the pro-war USian right, especially the scene of "carry out God's verdict."

And all of it just happened to be ready for video.

And the people were shot were civilian mercenaries in a foreign owned chopper not US soldiers in a blackhawk. How convenient.

And the "Islamic Army in Iraq?" Hmmm, first we've heard of them - but they seem pretty capable, eh?

Read the whole story again. Carefully. What seems strange about it all?

Look, call me the resident conspiracy loonie but something just smells a little here. If the message was that these people are targets you go in, get the kill and get the hell out before YOU become the target. You don't hang around casually filming your dirty work for foreign consumption. Dead people and twisted burning wreckage tell the tale you want to tell just as effectively.


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AppleSeed
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posted 23 April 2005 12:26 PM      Profile for AppleSeed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are you saying the whole thing was a setup, AE?

By whom? Are the Iraqis involved merely dupes, or are they scoundrels in the pay of a third party, or parties?


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Cueball
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posted 23 April 2005 01:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am not really casting about for blame. I am just tired of the whole bloody mess, which was obviously inevitable when the US decided it wanted to invade Mesopotamia. Ugly and brutal. Completely unecessary too.

Also, I don't actually approve of shooting prisoners.


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Cueball
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posted 23 April 2005 01:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This may be a war withouth quarter but I would think such videos would play well to the pro-war USian right, especially the scene of "carry out God's verdict."


And no I don't think it was a setup. This kind of political snuff film is more and more common, and really began with the Russian invasion of Chechnya. True they didn't get the kind of coverage here that the stuff in Iraq does, but there you have it.

I have seen a couple of films of Russian soldiers having their throats slit. This seems a little more casual. Their purpose it inimidation.


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Agent 204
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posted 23 April 2005 05:20 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Anchoress:
The insurgents shot people, but my question is, were they prisoners? What's the definition of 'prisoner'?

Well, assuming this report is accurate, they shot a guy from a downed helicopter who'd fallen into their midst, was not a threat to them, and had no real chance of getting away. Sounds close enough to a prisoner to me.


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Anchoress
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posted 23 April 2005 05:24 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, I guess I think he's only a prisoner if the people who took him down are part of the army. Or if the people who took him down consider him a prisoner, which I guess they didn't.
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Cueball
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posted 23 April 2005 05:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The problem with this kind of insurgency thing is that insurgents don't usually have facilities for keeping prisoners, nor access to medical facilities. Hence prisoners are shot.

In this cae I am sure they were thinking about getting away, not transporting prisoners.


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Agent 204
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posted 23 April 2005 05:30 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
The problem with this kind of insurgency thing is that insurgents don't usually have facilities for keeping prisoners, nor access to medical facilities. Hence prisoners are shot.


The FMLN in El Salvador didn't have facilities for keeping prisoners either. So guess what they did with those they captured? They disarmed them and released them. Not only morally the right thing to do in such a case, but strategically useful too, since when word got out it made the enemy more willing to surrender rather than fight to the death.

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Cueball
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posted 23 April 2005 05:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They also shot them when it was expedient to do so. Lets not romanticize the fight, as much as a sympathize with many left wing revolutionaries.

And those are cases dealing with members of the Guardia Nacional, mostly poor peasants and person whom might sympathize with the politics of the FMLN. They might be released, never to fight again. These guys on the other hand were mercs, and the idea is to stop mercs coming to Iraq for a paycheque. You release them and they are back on the job in a week.

No. This pilot would have been a valuable hostage no doubt. He was shot for reasons of expedience.

Any idea what was used to take the chopper down? Random fire from automatic riles seems unlikely. That leaves an RPG (a hit or miss affair) or some kind of SAM.

[ 23 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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AppleSeed
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posted 23 April 2005 05:44 PM      Profile for AppleSeed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah, I guess I think he's only a prisoner if the people who took him down are part of the army. Or if the people who took him down consider him a prisoner, which I guess they didn't.

Brilliant. You're hired.


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Jacob Two-Two
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posted 23 April 2005 05:52 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
These guys on the other hand were mercs, and the idea is to stop mercs coming to Iraq for a paycheque. You release them and they are back on the job in a week.

More than that. If a standard was set that prisoners were set free unharmed, it would actually encourage mercenaries who are currently thinking Iraq might be a little too hot to work in. Executing them all is the only way to acheive their goal. Not that I'm condoning this, mind you. I'm just explaining it.


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Bacchus
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posted 23 April 2005 07:14 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah, I guess I think he's only a prisoner if the people who took him down are part of the army. Or if the people who took him down consider him a prisoner, which I guess they didn't.

quote:
The insurgents shot people, but my question is, were they prisoners? What's the definition of 'prisoner'?

This is the thinking the U.S. uses so they can keep people in prison camps in Cuba because they arnt really prisoners. Congrats for making that outlook of theirs a legit one and now you can cease complaining when the U.S. does it


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Anchoress
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posted 23 April 2005 07:42 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:

This is the thinking the U.S. uses so they can keep people in prison camps in Cuba because they arnt really prisoners. Congrats for making that outlook of theirs a legit one and now you can cease complaining when the U.S. does it


1. The example you offered bears so little resemblance to the one discussed in this thread it doesn't survive the comparison.

2. I have never complained 'when the US does it', so I cannot comply with your request to cease complaining.


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Américain Égalitaire
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posted 23 April 2005 09:32 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wasn't calling it a setup - but the reporting of the incident raised some of my curiosity. Apparently there have been arrests:

U.S. Forces Detain 6 Linked to Helicopter's Downing

Its interesting to me that this was the first time in the whole occupation that a private chopper was shot down and in a deserted area north of Baghdad. I would think that since the US wants these folks in country they might provide them with better security or at least with a better threat assessment of where to fly or not fly.

There's still something about this that shouldn't be and I can't quite put my finger on it. But the hit does now appear to be a legit strike by insurgents.


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nister
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posted 23 April 2005 09:50 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There was no reason to shoot the pilot. Anger drives events like that. I feel that a death like that claims two lives.
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Cueball
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posted 23 April 2005 10:03 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It eats away at my life, I can tell you, son of a bitch that he undoubtedly was.

[ 23 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Cueball
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posted 23 April 2005 10:09 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There's still something about this that shouldn't be and I can't quite put my finger on it. But the hit does now appear to be a legit strike by insurgents.


The reporting is of course absolutely absurd and misleading. Describing an MI-8 as a commercial helicpoter is like calling a Bradley Fighting Vehicle a bus. It has been used commercially, but it is a heavily armoured military tranport vehicle.

quote:
Its interesting to me that this was the first time in the whole occupation that a private chopper was shot down and in a deserted area north of Baghdad. I would think that since the US wants these folks in country they might provide them with better security or at least with a better threat assessment of where to fly or not fly.


They are the security.

[ 23 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Américain Égalitaire
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posted 23 April 2005 10:28 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball:

points taken. obviously you have some questions about this whole episode as well. I just don't trust the US command on anything so I tend to question every report.


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Cueball
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posted 25 April 2005 03:14 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bulgaria's Heli Air Withdraws Employees from Iraq

It seems the attack was a success.

quote:
The employees of the Bulgaria's commercial airline company Heli Air will return from Iraq to Bulgaria, it became clear on Sunday.

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Left Wing Zealot
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posted 26 April 2005 01:43 PM      Profile for Left Wing Zealot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The title of this thread, "its is getting harder and harder to take this shit", says it all. Here's my rather strong view of this "shit".

Many say that the West's interest in the Middle East is "all about oil" and all about oppressing the "Palestinians". I believe that the oil fields in the Middle East were found, developed and paid for by Western interests. I believe that the U.S. should have carried out the attempts it was discussing in November 1973, right after the oil embargo, to invade Saudi Arabia.

My understanding is that the oil fields are not located where most of the people live. The fields were and are private, expropriated Western property. They were not nationalized, inasmuch as none of the benefit of the fields goes to the people. They were stolen.

I believe that this mumbo jumbo about Arabs/Muslims having "as much rights as everyone else" is pure BS. As noted at the top of this thread, Christians are arrested for praying. Does either Canada or the US arrest Muslims for praying? In India and Israel, there are many Muslims that live safely among Hindus and Jews. How many Hindus and/or Jews live safely in any Muslim land (except maybe Turkey)? As far as the "Palestinians" go, even a brief glimpse at a map shows the disproportionate amount of land under Arab control contrasted with Israel, which is little bigger than PEI.


It's high time we stopped mouthing politically correct garbage that might impress a 19 year old university student (and not the smarter of those) and started telling the plain, unadulterated truth.


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Coyote
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posted 26 April 2005 02:05 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Left Wing Zealot:


It's high time we stopped mouthing politically correct garbage that might impress a 19 year old university student (and not the smarter of those) and started telling the plain, unadulterated truth.



Fine. You're a bigot.

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Bacchus
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posted 26 April 2005 02:07 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*sigh* Im afraid your wrong Coyote and I really must insist you withdraw your bigot accusation


And replace it with racist


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Hinterland
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posted 26 April 2005 02:08 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's high time we stopped mouthing politically correct garbage that might impress a 19 year old university student (and not the smarter of those) and started telling the plain, unadulterated truth.

Oh, ho ho. That's rich coming from you. Aren't you the latest incarnation of the JBG troll? Why does anyone living in Iqaluit have an American zip code?

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


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nister
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posted 26 April 2005 02:11 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You believe the oil fields belong to the ones who develop them? Domestically, as well? Or just foreign oil fields?
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audra trower williams
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posted 26 April 2005 02:16 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Racism is not allowed on rabble. If you don't think all races have the same rights, you don't belong there. You're gone, LWZ.
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Coyote
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posted 26 April 2005 02:19 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
*sigh* Im afraid your wrong Coyote and I really must insist you withdraw your bigot accusation


And replace it with racist


Ha! But seriously, racism is a kind of bigotry, is it not? Thus "bigot"?

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Maritimesea
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posted 26 April 2005 09:19 PM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

Oh, ho ho. That's rich coming from you. Aren't you the latest incarnation of the JBG troll? Why does anyone living in Iqaluit have an American zip code?

[ 26 April 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]




Not to mention spelling Iqaluit wrong .

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