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Author Topic: Saudi Arabia: More than 100 gay men flogged, sent to prison in one case
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 08 April 2005 03:07 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
(Geneva) In sentencing more than 100 men to imprisonment and flogging after unfair trials for alleged "homosexual conduct", Saudi Arabia has advertised its contempt for the basic rights to privacy, fair trials and freedom from torture two human rights groups said Thursday.

Security police arrested the men on March 10 at a private party held in a rented hall in Jeddah.
(story) The government-affiliated newspaper Al-Wifaq reported that the men at the party were dancing and “behaving like women.”

The sentences today were denounced by the Geneva-based Human Rights Watch and the International Commission of Jurists.

“Prosecuting and imprisoning people for homosexual conduct are flagrant human rights violations,” said Scott Long, director of Human Rights Watch’s Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Rights Program. “Subjecting the victims to floggings is torture, pure and simple.”

On or about March 26, a Jeddah court, meeting in a secret closed session in which defense attorneys were excluded, sentenced 31 of the men to prison for six months to one year, and to 200 lashes each, for unreported offenses. Four other men received two years’ imprisonment and 2,000 lashes.

Police released more than 70 of the men not long after their initial arrest; reports in the Saudi press suggested that personal contacts with the government had intervened on their behalf. However, on April 3, police summoned the 70 men back to a local police station and informed them that they had been sentenced to one year’s imprisonment.

Shari’a law, as interpreted and enforced in Saudi Arabia, allows sentences ranging from imprisonment and flogging to death for “deviant sexual behavior.”



From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 08 April 2005 05:25 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"On or about March 26, a Jeddah court, meeting in a secret closed session in which defense attorneys were excluded, sentenced 31 of the men to prison for six months to one year, and to 200 lashes each, for unreported offenses. Four other men received two years’ imprisonment and 2,000 lashes. "

How do we justify having diplomatic relations with such a brutal country? I'd suggest some form of protest - maybe a petition - to our overlords in Ottawa.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 08 April 2005 11:47 AM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In a related story, a masked socialist has been questioned about the "disappearance" of 100 Saudi princes.

[ 08 April 2005: Message edited by: NDP Newbie ]


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 April 2005 11:50 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is my understanding that somewhat fewer than 200 lashes will kill a person. Does anyone have more precise knowledge?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
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posted 08 April 2005 12:02 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've heard that too skdadl, but no links.
From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 April 2005 12:03 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Given that one lash will open a good stretch of your back ...
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Anchoress
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posted 08 April 2005 12:14 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've been doing a bit of reading, and in one case a sentence of 180 lashes was reduced to 100 because it was believed 180 would be enough to kill the (female) subject, and in another case a summary of the 'pirate code' placed a cap of 39 on the number of lashes (one less than Jesus received) because 40 lashes (with a cat o'nine tails) was considered a death sentence.

[ 08 April 2005: Message edited by: Anchoress ]


From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 08 April 2005 01:00 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Depends on the lashes, I guess. Who's laying them on and how hard, and what sort of whip. I expect places that routinely dish out lashes in the hundreds make sure that a typical sentence is only probable, not automatic, death. Wouldn't want to be spending 160 strokes on someone who was already dead, wasting the punishment.
From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 08 April 2005 02:01 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
I believe that in some countries practicing Sharia, the flogger holds a copy of the Qu'ran under his arm.

A couple of articles I've found by googling "flogging saudi arabia" indicate the lashes are given in multiple sessions.

http://tinyurl.com/3tgc3


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 30 April 2005 07:15 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Amnesty Appeals To Saudi Arabia For 35 Sentenced To Flogging For Attending 'Gay Wedding'

quote:
{London} Amnesty International issued an 'urgent action' appeal on Friday on behalf of at least 35 men at risk of being flogged in Saudi Arabia for having attended a “gay wedding”.

Originally more than 100 men were charged.

Security police arrested the men on March 10 at a private party held in a rented hall in Jeddah. The government-affiliated newspaper Al-Wifaq reported that the men at the party were dancing and “behaving like women.”

Police released more than 70 of the men not long after their initial arrest; reports in the Saudi press suggested that personal contacts with the government had intervened on their behalf.

Shari’a law, as interpreted and enforced in Saudi Arabia, allows sentences ranging from imprisonment and flogging to death for “deviant sexual behavior.”

Al-Wifaq claimed that the men seized at the gathering had been holding a “gay wedding.” One friend of an arrested man denied this to Human Rights Watch, saying the gathering was a birthday party.

In a statement Friday, Amnesty International said it believes the men may be prisoners of conscience, punished solely for their sexual orientation.

Four of the men (two Saudi Arabians, a Jordanian and a Yemeni) were sentenced by a court in Jeddah to 2,000 lashes and two years' imprisonment, and 31 others to 200 lashes and six months to one year in prison.

Amnesty said it has written to the Minister of the Interior seeking clarification of the situation and expressing concern.



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Cueball
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posted 30 April 2005 09:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pretty sick stuff.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Yonge Street Blue
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posted 30 April 2005 09:55 PM      Profile for Yonge Street Blue        Edit/Delete Post
Is this the "hug Israel" or "hug a Zionist" thread? This reads like the dark side.
From: Gananoque, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 April 2005 10:12 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There isn't anything in this thread about Israel. I recomend you review postings of the people who have posted on this thread before you try and establish your view of the biases of the people who started this thread, and those who have commented thus far.

I highly reccoment it in fact. Attacking Saudi Arabia for homophobic legal practices, is not and endorsement of the Israel's Palestinian policies.

[ 30 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Yonge Street Blue
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posted 30 April 2005 10:14 PM      Profile for Yonge Street Blue        Edit/Delete Post
Seems Arab-phobic to me. Seems like it promotes hatred of Muslims.
From: Gananoque, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 30 April 2005 10:15 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Seems somebody overindulged themselves at Non-Sequiturs-R-Us.
From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 April 2005 10:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Yonge Street Blue:
Seems Arab-phobic to me. Seems like it promotes hatred of Muslims.

So you think its ok to beat men for being gay. Is that right?

If I were to condemn Israel's policy of targetted assassination would that be encouraging anti-Jewish hatred, or would it be taking a principled stand on human rights?

[ 30 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Yonge Street Blue
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posted 30 April 2005 11:14 PM      Profile for Yonge Street Blue        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

So you think its ok to beat men for being gay. Is that right?

If I were to condemn Israel's policy of targetted assassination would that be encouraging anti-Jewish hatred, or would it be taking a principled stand on human rights?

[ 30 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]



No, I just don't want to see one-sided bigotry against Arabs. I can agree with you, but you must condemn both.


From: Gananoque, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Yonge Street Blue
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posted 30 April 2005 11:16 PM      Profile for Yonge Street Blue        Edit/Delete Post
The point is I don't want homophobia or racism against Muslims. Hate is hate.
From: Gananoque, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 30 April 2005 11:42 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[forget it- not worth it]

[ 30 April 2005: Message edited by: Agent 204 ]


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 May 2005 12:49 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Yonge Street Blue:


No, I just don't want to see one-sided bigotry against Arabs. I can agree with you, but you must condemn both.


Point taken, but doesn't it strike you as vaguely chauvinistic to always contextualize Arab politics in reference to Israel? Isn't it possible to see Arab politics, in this case Saudi poltics, as an independent system with its own internal dynamics, both good and bad?

[ 01 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 01 May 2005 01:01 AM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, Israel never even entered my mind until YSB dragged it in. It is quite possible to express concern about anti-arab or anti-muslim thought without any reference to Israel, and so I suspect it's no accident that Israel was mentioned.

BTW, is it possible to have a thread in the ME forum that doesn't become an Israel thread?


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 01 May 2005 04:04 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by verbatim:
BTW, is it possible to have a thread in the ME forum that doesn't become an Israel thread?

Apparently not, try as one might!


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 01 May 2005 04:32 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More to the point, I find the suggestion that someone would have to pass a litmus test on a completely unrelated subject to be incredibly offensive.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 May 2005 04:43 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hi Yonge Street Blue. Welcome to babble. Consider this your first warning from the moderator.

It's offensive for you to come on here and accuse people of being anti-Arab because they're criticizing appalling actions of the Saudi Arabian government. It's more than a non-sequitor, and even more offensive to assume that something you consider anti-Arab is automatically the product of Israelis or Zionists when that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread - it's downright prejudiced and bigoted.

If you want to engage in this forum, then you'd better learn that a) you can't deflect criticism of Arab countries with unrelated references to Israelis, and b) you can't come on here and start a McCarthyist witch-hunt looking for "Zionists" or people who "hug Zionists", and c) you can't make generalizations about Israelis.

Smarten up or you'll find your stay a short one on babble.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Yonge Street Blue
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Babbler # 9003

posted 02 May 2005 12:03 AM      Profile for Yonge Street Blue        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, I apologize sincerely. I'm just worried about the potential for hatred but I'm new to posting.

Sorry again.


From: Gananoque, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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Babbler # 7024

posted 02 May 2005 08:23 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Yonge Street Blue:
I'm just worried about the potential for hatred....

And, it would seem, far more concerned about that 'potential' than about the fact of the government-sponsored hatred required to sentence a hundred men to be beaten nigh unto death for attending a wedding.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged

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