babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics

Topic Closed  Topic Closed


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Rabin's grave desecrated

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Rabin's grave desecrated
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 04 April 2005 01:45 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Grave of Slain Israeli Leader Defaced

quote:
JERUSALEM -- The graves of slain Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and his wife, Leah, were found defaced in a Jerusalem cemetery Sunday, the latest in a wave of such incidents that police believe may be linked to ultranationalist Jews.

A police statement said the names on the graves, in the Mount Herzl national cemetery, were sprayed over with black paint and the words "murdering dog" written in Hebrew. It added that Jerusalem police chief Ilan Franco set up a special squad to investigate the grave desecrations. Rabin was assassinated in 1995 by an ultranationalist Jew opposed to his moves for peace with the Palestinians. His widow died of cancer in 2000 and was buried alongside him.


It goes on to say that Herzl's grave was also descrated.

What just boggles my mind is that people would so blatantly do the following:

quote:
defaced with the words "Neo-Nazi Hail Beilin," while around the same time the word "Hitler" was scrawled in black spray-paint on the Negev Desert grave site of David Ben Gurion, Israel's first prime minister,

I just can't fathom this.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 04 April 2005 01:50 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's shitty.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 04 April 2005 02:52 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sounds like the work of neo-nazi skinheads.

I thought this was cute:

quote:
[Ariel] Sharon condemned the grave attacks.

"Any extremism is unnecessary and harmful," he told reporters on Sunday.


Did he say this with a straight face?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 04 April 2005 03:55 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Sounds like the work of neo-nazi skinheads.

I doubt Israel has them, though.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 04 April 2005 10:05 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What an outrage. Those who use nazi images like this shame themselves.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 April 2005 10:15 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They do more than shame themselves. They scare the rest of us, and rightly so. Acts like these are not just words: they are violent in themselves and they threaten violence.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 04 April 2005 10:33 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
What an outrage. Those who use nazi images like this shame themselves.

Indeed, the far right in Israel is becoming more disgraceful every day. Wouldn't they fit the definition of what some purport to be the "New anti-Semites" for their use of nazi imagry and comparison of Zionist leaders with Hitler and the Nazis?


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 04 April 2005 10:52 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
They do more than shame themselves. They scare the rest of us, and rightly so. Acts like these are not just words: they are violent in themselves and they threaten violence.
Skdadl, Israel's extreme right is no less scary than the extreme right anywhere in the world. Why are Jewish extremists any more scary than any others?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 April 2005 10:54 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did I say they were? The homegrowns scare me too, Mac.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 04 April 2005 10:55 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where did skdadl say that Israel's far-right extremists are scarier than the rest of the world's far-right extremists?

You're reaching, Macabee. People can't even agree with you, without you trying to smear them.

[ 04 April 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 04 April 2005 11:30 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My apologies if I casted unwarranted aspersions however it seems to me that we should acknowledge the fact that extreme right wing activity like this in Israel is rare, thank goodness. That said, yes these people are scary, disgusting and should be treated with exactly the same contempt that we reserves for any extremists no matter from right or left.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 April 2005 11:34 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I hope that they are also treated to the same kind of police attention that similar vandals (or worse?) are here, given that they or people who sound just like them actually managed to murder a prime minister.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 04 April 2005 11:42 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Part of their punishment should be a formal apology to the many aged Holocaust survivors living in Israel. (including a Viennese lady I know...).

I remember Betar, when I was in France, involved in similar vandalism and death and bomb threats against many associations and individuals who opposed their hardline policies - they especially targeted "pro-peace" and non-Zionist Jews. They made death threats against several people I know in Paris.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 04 April 2005 12:07 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
My apologies if I casted unwarranted aspersions however it seems to me that we should acknowledge the fact that extreme right wing activity like this in Israel is rare, thank goodness.

Not that rare, there have been two political assassinations, Baruch Goldstein's murderous rampage and other actions. Indeed, the extreme right wing seems to be more present in Israel as part of the "national dialogue" than in many other countries. I think its perilous to assume that someone cannot be a fascist just because they're Israeli.

My father recalled that in his youth Betar members used to parade in brownshirts shouting the slogan "Italy for Mussolini, Germany for Hitler and Palestine for us". That the leader of the Polish Betar movement later became Prime Minister of Israel should give one pause for thought, I would think. Instead the fascist roots of Betar, Herut and by extension Likud have disappeared down the memory hole and any attempt to shine a light on this dark history is denounced as "the New anti-Semitism".

[ 04 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554

posted 04 April 2005 01:47 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
Not that rare, there have been two political assassinations, Baruch Goldstein's murderous rampage and other actions. Indeed

Who was the second assaination? I am aware of Rabin's but forget the second.

Look any grave desecration is disgusting and must be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Extremism whether it come from the right, center or left must be stopped.


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 04 April 2005 01:57 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What really gets me is that the extreme right in Israel doesn't seem to be satisfied with "just" having offed a prime minister. Now that he can't even defend himself, they go and paint crap all over his grave.

It also makes me ask what deranged person would want to use Nazi imagery in a predominantly Jewish country for the express purpose of shocking people.

Here in Canada or in the USA, I can understand the shock value argument because some people are through no fault of their own ignorant of the impact on the Jewish religion that the Nazi symbols have.

But in Israel?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 04 April 2005 03:05 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
[QB]My apologies if I casted unwarranted aspersions however it seems to me that we should acknowledge the fact that extreme right wing activity like this in Israel is rare, thank goodness.

Unfortunately there is still very much of what I would call 'extreme right-wing' in the mainstream of the Israeli body politic. It is completely acceptable, for example, to discuss ethnic cleansing, to smear Arabs in general, to build walls and fences around unwanted ethnic populations, to advocate military solutions to political problems, to hold militarism in high-esteem, and so on.

That used to be called extreme right-wing.

[ 04 April 2005: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 04 April 2005 05:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
My apologies if I casted unwarranted aspersions however it seems to me that we should acknowledge the fact that extreme right wing activity like this in Israel is rare, thank goodness.

Absurd. Quit trying to pretend that the Arik Sharon is some kind of closet humanitarian. The hard right is in power and the extreme right has its tentacles everywhere in the government.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8104

posted 04 April 2005 05:27 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mac:
Why are Jewish extremists any more scary than any others?

It's not that they are more scary it's that they're more numerous. The US congress does not have people like David Duke or the Tim Mcveigh types waving to much influence. Even in Germany with the Rise of the that informal nazi party, they're influence is not as scary influence wise.

The Knesset on the other hand....

[ 04 April 2005: Message edited by: Vigilante ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 04 April 2005 10:40 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vigilante:

It's not that they are more scary it's that they're more numerous.


And financially subsidised by the governent thank's to Israel's short sighted settlement policy. It's as if the US government paid Timothy McVeigh's cothinkers billions of dollars to build thousands of compounds.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 04 April 2005 10:54 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

Not that rare, there have been two political assassinations, Baruch Goldstein's murderous rampage and other actions. Indeed, the extreme right wing seems to be more present in Israel as part of the "national dialogue" than in many other countries. I think its perilous to assume that someone cannot be a fascist just because they're Israeli.

My father recalled that in his youth Betar members used to parade in brownshirts shouting the slogan "Italy for Mussolini, Germany for Hitler and Palestine for us". That the leader of the Polish Betar movement later became Prime Minister of Israel should give one pause for thought, I would think. Instead the fascist roots of Betar, Herut and by extension Likud have disappeared down the memory hole and any attempt to shine a light on this dark history is denounced as "the New anti-Semitism".

[ 04 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


Its still rare even though there has been violence, It is not part of the national dialogue as you put it, in fact Israel has strict laws which they uphold against such action.

You might be better saving your outrage for those world wide that do make this part of their national scene. For every Baruch Goldstein, how many suicide bombers have there been? I condemn Goldstein as vigirously as I condemn Hamas and others that would use extremist ideology to murder innocent people. The fact that you are so focused on Israel disturbs me.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 04 April 2005 06:56 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vigilante:

It's not that they are more scary it's that they're more numerous. The US congress does not have people like David Duke or the Tim Mcveigh types waving to much influence. Even in Germany with the Rise of the that informal nazi party, they're influence is not as scary influence wise.

The Keneset on the other hand....


Ah yes the nazi comparision now comes out. Fuck I hate anti-Semites!!

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 04 April 2005 07:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Its still rare even though there has been violence, It is not part of the national dialogue as you put it, in fact Israel has strict laws which they uphold against such action.

Bullshit. Right, and Ahmend Yassin died of a heart attack when the IDF served him his warrant.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 04 April 2005 07:23 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
It is not part of the national dialogue as you put it.

Then why are there parties advocating "transfer" with members in the Knesset? True, Kach was banned, but other parties that are almost as bad and advocate the same things are not only legal, but get votes and have influence.

Why do the settlements that breed this hatred supported by the governent? Isn't the Settler's Council part of the "national dialogue"?

[ 04 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 04 April 2005 07:27 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And Macabee, you've yet to explain how those who compare some Zionists to the Nazis are examples of "New Anti-Semites" while Zionists who compare other Zionists to Nazis are not.
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 04 April 2005 07:29 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can you explain how the National Union has 7 or 8 members in the Knesset if right wing extremism is not part of the national dialogue in Israel? Can you explain how it is that a party descended from an openly fascist party can produce Prime Ministers in Israel if the extreme right is not part of the national dialogue?

[ 04 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 04 April 2005 07:39 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Then why are there parties advocating "transfer" with members in the Knesset? True, Kach was banned, but other parties that are almost as bad and advocate the same things are not only legal, but get votes and have influence.

Its a shell game.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 04 April 2005 08:18 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You don't consider the settlement movement "far Right", Macabee?
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 04 April 2005 08:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

No they are in the territories delivering their mesage of peace, love and understanding, (as long as your Jewish that is.)

[ 04 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 04 April 2005 08:57 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
And Macabee, you've yet to explain how those who compare some Zionists to the Nazis are examples of "New Anti-Semites" while Zionists who compare other Zionists to Nazis are not.

Anyone trotting out nazi analogies to Jews are engaging in anti-Semitism.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 04 April 2005 09:21 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

Anyone trotting out nazi analogies to Jews are engaging in anti-Semitism.

That would include right wing Zionist parties that so taint their opponents during election campaigns?


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 04 April 2005 09:25 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about those who use those analogies against peace activists, Mac?
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 04 April 2005 10:33 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

Anyone trotting out nazi analogies to Jews are engaging in anti-Semitism.

Of course


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 04 April 2005 10:41 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

Anyone trotting out nazi analogies to Jews are engaging in anti-Semitism.

Would that include David Ben-Gurion, who referred to Vladimir Jabotinsky, leader of the Revisionist Zionist movement and mentor to Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir, as "Vladimir Hitler"?


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 05 April 2005 08:27 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
David Ben Gurion had his faults no doubt. This comparision was extreme even stupid in retrospecty however it was made in 1933 well before the Holocaust took place.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 05 April 2005 10:25 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He seems to have been quite prescient though, wasn't he?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 05 April 2005 10:35 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
David Ben Gurion had his faults no doubt. This comparision was extreme even stupid in retrospecty however it was made in 1933 well before the Holocaust took place.

The reference to "Vladimir Hitler' was not a one time event but happened on an ongoing basis. I believe Ben Gurion continued to refer to Jabotinsky as "Vladimir Hitler" until well after World War II.

Of course, given the habit of Jabotinsky's followers of wearing brownshirts and praising Hitler in their newspapers (in the early 1930s) the description does not seem all that extreme, does it Macabee? What's more disturbing that the name-calling is that former members of the *openly* fascist Betar movement have frequently formed the Israeli government since 1977. Surely, Macabee, you are aware of Betar's disturbing history. Do you think it's anti-Semitic to compare Betar to fascists when they themselves invited the comparisons?

[ 05 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 05 April 2005 10:38 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, below is a letter signed by Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, Sidney Hook and others in 1948 comparing Menachem Begin's party to the Nazis. Do you think that Einstein, Arendt, Hook et al were anti-Semitic?

quote:
Letters to the New York Times
December 4, 1948

New Palestine Party Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed

TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants — 240 men, women, and children — and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute. The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State” is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin. The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

(signed)

ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE

New York, Dec. 2, 1948



From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 05 April 2005 10:41 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In any case, the threats they made against people I know in Paris - some of whom were signatories of the French "Not in My Name" petition "En tant que Juifs" - of murder and bodily harm would not have been out of line for neo-Nazis. But then, leftist Jews (of various tendencies, and attitudes towards Israel) rather expect to get death threats from Neo-Nazi antisemites, no?
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 05 April 2005 11:25 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
Macabee, below is a letter signed by Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, Sidney Hook and others in 1948 comparing Menachem Begin's party to the Nazis. Do you think that Einstein, Arendt, Hook et al were anti-Semitic?


No I do not. Look Mycroft I know what you are trying to do. This was 1948 a different time with a different understanding of history. Try as you may I will not compare contexts of 50 years ago to today.

You understand as do most here what nazi analogies are in context of our modern understanding of the Holocaust. Stop being supercilious and trying to "get" me. Instead let us all properly critisize nazi comparisions used today for what they are instead of playing childish and stupid games.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 05 April 2005 11:36 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Stop being supercilious and trying to "get" me. Instead let us all properly critisize nazi comparisions used today for what they are instead of playing childish and stupid games.

In other words, it's ok for you to "get" someone else, but only you define the terms of fair play?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554

posted 05 April 2005 11:46 AM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
AKAMycroft earlier in the thread you mentioned 2 political assassinations. Rabin is the obvious one who is the other? Since I assume you meant of Israeli leaders I am not counting Sadat.

The bottom line folks is this. Why is it that people -- and I do not care for the reasoning whether it be political or revenge etc -- why is it that people desecrate graves?

Why is it that some in this world try to justify the actions of desecrators?

One need only to look in Ontario at the history of grave desecration that began with the "white man" destroying the graves of Native Canadians and unfortunatley continues today with the attack on cemetaries of many different religions.

Very simply why?


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 05 April 2005 12:59 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:

Why is it that some in this world try to justify the actions of desecrators?



Who did that?

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 05 April 2005 01:06 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

In other words, it's ok for you to "get" someone else, but only you define the terms of fair play?



Never said that Skdadl though it doesnt surprise me that you would play Mycroft's game as well. Atleast I keep things in context with an understanding of history.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 05 April 2005 01:12 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mac, this latest round started with your labelling a perfectly reasonable post of Vigilante's, which is entirely about contemporary movements (and yes, some neo-nazi movements are entirely contemporary), anti-semitic.

So you got answered. You're the game-player, Mac; Mycroft had the history.

[ 05 April 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 05 April 2005 01:59 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
No I do not. Look Mycroft I know what you are trying to do. This was 1948 a different time with a different understanding of history. Try as you may I will not compare contexts of 50 years ago to today.

You understand as do most here what nazi analogies are in context of our modern understanding of the Holocaust. Stop being supercilious and trying to "get" me. Instead let us all properly critisize nazi comparisions used today for what they are instead of playing childish and stupid games.


Jews had quite a good understanding of the Holocaust in 1948, Macabee. Certainly my family had an all too good appreciation of the Holocaust in 1948.

What I'm getting at is this latter day revisionism that tries to silence discussion by equating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. As for Nazi=Zionism analogies, I think they're in poor taste but I think it's not something one can condemn as "anti-Semitic" when, in fact, such analogies are quite present within Israel itself with Zionists routinely comparing other Zionists to Nazis or, more commonly mainstream Zionists saying the policies of other Zionists will lead to a new Holocaust.

It's fallacious to accuse people of anti-Semitism for making such comparisons when right wing Zionists do it routinely.

[ 05 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 05 April 2005 02:00 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
AKAMycroft earlier in the thread you mentioned 2 political assassinations. Rabin is the obvious one who is the other?

A cabinet minister was shot a few years ago. I seem to recall the assassination was conducted by a right wing Zionist but I may be wrong.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 05 April 2005 02:13 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The only cabinet minister I can recall being assassinated was the Transport Minister who was specifically targetted by a radical Palestinian terrorist group (I forget if it was Hamas or Islamic Jihad) because he made scurrilous comments about Palestinians (I believe he called the Palestinians a bacillus on the body politic or something equally tasteless).

I honestly don't remember if there ever was an assassination of a government official (besides Rabin) by an extreme right-wing Zionist.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 05 April 2005 02:55 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
The only cabinet minister I can recall being assassinated was the Transport Minister who was specifically targetted by a radical Palestinian terrorist group (I forget if it was Hamas or Islamic Jihad) because he made scurrilous comments about Palestinians (I believe he called the Palestinians a bacillus on the body politic or something equally tasteless).


Yes, I think that's what I was thinking of. My mistake, only one assassination by right wing Zionists (not counting the assassinations of Count Bernadotte and Lord Moyne.)

Then there's this fascinating tidbit from the history of the Lehi, the Revisionist faction called the Stern Gang of which Yitzhak Shamir was a member:

quote:

In 1940 and 1941, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine and to offer their assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe arguing that "common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO (Lehi)." Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.


(from wikipedia)

So Macabee, are we allowed to compare right wing Zionists to Nazis in the case of those right wing Zionists who proposed an alliance with Hitler? Or would that comparison still be anti-Semitic?

[ 05 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 05 April 2005 03:00 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Click here for smoking gun picture

[ 05 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 05 April 2005 03:04 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
German Embassy Ankara Confidential Istanbul, the 11 January 41
Naval Attaché
(Office Istanbul) ----------------------------------
Nr. 1629 conf. |German Embassy in Turkey |
|Arr.: 1"4". JAN. 1941 | "Signature unreadable"
| Attachments. ______________ |
|J.-Nr. "xxxx" 15/41 |
----------------------------------
To the Right Honourable Ambassador!
as attachment I send you:
1.) a letter, which the chief of general security in Syria
Colombani sent to General Dertz. Roser communicates,
that because of this letter apparently a further
meeting between Colombani and Dertz took place.
C. holds the opinion, that his call-back has been caused by
the co-operation of F. [Goirtz?] (H.C.) and the minister "xxxx".
2.) an order related to demobilisation, which has been sent
by the French military in Syria to its units.
3.) a proposal of the National Military Organisation in
Palestine regarding the solution of the Jewish question in Europe.
With regards
I am your loyal and devoted


(German cover letter)

From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 05 April 2005 03:05 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sidescroll!

And off-topic too, although I see how it got there. Shall we get back to talking about the desecration of Rabin's grave, or has this thread outlived its usefulness?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 05 April 2005 03:10 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's wait for an answer from Macabee before closing the thread.
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 05 April 2005 03:11 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay. I'll let this continue for a bit. But could you do something about the sidescroll, perhaps?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 05 April 2005 04:00 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No I do not. Look Mycroft I know what you are trying to do. This was 1948 a different time with a different understanding of history. Try as you may I will not compare contexts of 50 years ago to today.

Fine. We can dispose of the whole Nazi thing then, and forget about the Holocaust, cause that was all a long time ago, and blah blah and blah blah, times have chnaged, and blah blah, there is a different context, blah blah. Blah.

Blah.

Back to reality:

quote:
The only cabinet minister I can recall being assassinated was the Transport Minister who was specifically targetted by a radical Palestinian terrorist group (I forget if it was Hamas or Islamic Jihad) because he made scurrilous comments about Palestinians (I believe he called the Palestinians a bacillus on the body politic or something equally tasteless).

Dr.Conway you mean Ze'evi AKA "Ghandi" who was assassinated by the PFLP in retalition for the IDF assassination of the leader of the PFLP, Abu-Ali Mustafa. Ze'evi was appointed to the ministry of tourism by Sharon in his first government. He had serious facist tendencies and compared Palestinians to rats, or some such thing, but was assassinated in direct retaliation for Sharon's first targetted assassination of Palestinian civilian leadership, not name-calling.

The assassination of Abu-Ali Mustafa had serious consequences, as it resulted in Ze'evi assassination, something which then had direct bearing on the the IDF decision to suround Arafat's HQ in Ramallah in order to affect the arrest of members of the PFLP's central committee.

More attention should be paid to this sequence of events, in my opinion. This because prior to the assassination of Mustafa, the PFLP had gone along with the Oslo process and not been particularly active militarily in the manner of Hamas. In other words the assassination of Mustafa was an escalation intended to provoke a Palestinian response.

[ 05 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 05 April 2005 06:29 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It appears that police have a lead.

Live footage found from security cameras

quote:
Rabin graves targeted days after those of Herzl and Ben Gurion

Jerusalem police reported Sunday evening that three video cameras recorded live footage of the Sunday vandalism of the graves of assassinated Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and his wife Leah, the fourth such desecration in the last five days.


This is more serious than I had initially thought - I originally believed that all the gravestones had been desecrated on the same day, but across multiple days suggests a very brazen individual or individuals who believe they won't get caught.

As for this...

quote:
In 1940 and 1941, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine

My jaw just unhinged itself when I saw that. I can't imagine anyone being that profoundly stupid. It would be like a gay and lesbian organization inviting the KKK for a shindig.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 05 April 2005 07:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Many Arabs, notably Nasser and Anwar Sadat also professed such sympathies for the Nazi's for similar reasons. The main thing was getting rid of the British after all, and the Germans were seen as possible allies in that regard. I don't think anyone imagined the possibility of the pogrom that took place, such inconcievable brutality was simply inconcievable.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 05 April 2005 07:08 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
No I do not. Look Mycroft I know what you are trying to do. This was 1948 a different time with a different understanding of history. Try as you may I will not compare contexts of 50 years ago to today.

You understand as do most here what nazi analogies are in context of our modern understanding of the Holocaust.


Let's consider this. Macabee is suggesting that three years after the liberation of Auschwitz and two years after the Nuremberg trials Albert Einstein and Hannah Arendt, two German Jewish refugees, the latter of whom has informed our modern conception of totalitarinism, lacked a sufficient understanding of the Holocaust to truly know the implications of comparing someone like Menachem Begin to Hitler?

While it is true that we know a lot more detalis about the mechanics of the Holocaust now than we did fifty years ago it's absurd to suggest that in 1948, Einstein and Arendt were unaware of the gravity of the event or the depth of evil involved.

Macabee, are you really so wedded to this fallacious concept of a "New anti-Semitism" which equates criticism of Zionism with anti-Semitism and proclaims that all those who compare any Zionist to Nazis are themselves anti-Semites that you're willing to engage in absurd claims that German Jewish refugees like Arendt and Einstein lacked sufficient understanding of the Holocaust three years after its conclusion?

What is clear is that this analysis which some right wing Zionists are putting forward does not bear serious scrutiny. I hope that you can be intellectually honest enough to concede that rather than cling to fatuous claims no matter how evident it becomes that they simply hold no water.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 05 April 2005 07:14 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does it need serious scrutiny. I discarded it out of hand, immediatly. The fact that some Zionist insist on foisting it upon us, despite it obvious falsity, speaks more of the denouement of Zionism in general, and a desperate attmept of some to reclaim the moral authority so efficiently destroyed by the likes of Ariel Sharon and Menachem Begin.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 05 April 2005 08:21 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This reminds me of the time, oh it must be a few weeks ago now, when Macabee said with absolute certainty that anyone who compares Israel with apartheid South Africa doesn't know anything about apartheid -- only to then be confronted with the words of Desmond Tutu comparing Israel with apartheid South Africa. Now, Macabee claims that two indivduals, one having possibly the greatest mind of all time and the other being one of the leading political thinkers of the twentieth century (and one of the foremost thinkers on the nature of fascism and Nazism), simply lacked the understanding of the Holocaust, three years after its conclusion, to understand the implications of drawing an analogy between Mencahem Begin's Herut and Hitler's Nazi party. That these two refugees from Hitler's Germany just don't know as much about Hitler and Gemany as Macabee and his co-thinkers.

I suppose it's possible that Macabee is more knowledgable about apartheid than Desmond Tutu. I suppose it's also possible that an intellectual vandal and thug like Daniel Pipes has a greater grasp of political theory than Hannah Arendt or that Frank Diament has a better mind that Albert Einstien. For Macabee to be correct, and for his credibility to be intact, everything in the above paragraph must be the case.

Either that or you're just wrong Macabee and just can't admit it for whatever reason.

[ 05 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 06 April 2005 08:33 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I love it when people like Mycroft just reach into my mind and decide what it is that I have said.

I love it further when many here snicker (metaphorically speaking) thinking, I suppose, that Mycroft is really getting our pro-Israeli poster.

Facts however are facts. Desmond Tutu is a great man. He has tremendous sympathy for the displaced and I understand as do many his feelings for the Palestinian people. However it remains clear that democracy is what works and continues to work within the State of Israel. The minority do not hold sway over the majority. That is just the fact and while Archbishop Tutu may feel differently he cannot change the facts.

The occupation is a different story. While many would rather not think of it, it is nonetheless a war that led to the occupation. Prior to 1967 there was no Palestine either. It was Jordan. And the Jordanians did nothing to move forward the concept of a Palestinian state. Today there are those of goodwill trying to bring this to an end and establish a democratic state of Palestine. There are those on both sides who are doing all they can to thwart that. Instead of twisting facts to make points perhaps we can work towards that peace.

As for your twisting of my words about Eistein et al, yes he was a genious as was Arendt. However any credible historian will tell you that in 1948 with the war just over, there was little historical interpretation , indeed understanding of the full impact of the Holocaust. Sadly communist Europe refused to open its gates to historians to undertake this analysis. The first real historical look at this tragic genocide really came from Raul Hilberg whose book "The Destruction of European Jewry" came out much later than 1948. So to apply modern day understanding to an immense tragedy like the Holocaust is just inappropriate. But Mycroft and others you seem so keen in justifying nazi analogies that they will cling to or promote any idea that supports this thesis. This alone I find unpalatable. Howver if that's your cause so be it.

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2005 09:37 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh come on Macabee, it's absurd to suggest that in 1948 Einstein and Arendt lacked sufficient understanding of Hitler and the Nazis and didn't know what they were implying when they drew comparisons between the former and Herut. Particularly since much of our modern understanding of fascism and yes the Nazis comes from Arendt herself who popularised the term "totalitarian" in the first place. Don't be so arrogant.

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 April 2005 09:56 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for your twisting of my words about Eistein et al, yes he was a genious as was Arendt. However any credible historian will tell you that in 1948 with the war just over, there was little historical interpretation , indeed understanding of the full impact of the Holocaust.

Absurd, it was Arendt who wrote the seminal hitorical interpretation, herself.

Arendt's arrest by the Gestapo, etc. (or why Macabee is an asshole, who will sell jewish history in order to save it)

quote:
As the National Socialists grasped power, Arendt became a political activist and, beginning in 1933, helped the German Zionist Organization and its leader, Kurt Blumenfeld, to publicize the plight of the victims of Nazism. She also did research on anti-Semitic propaganda, for which she was arrested by the Gestapo. But when she won the sympathy of a Berlin jailer, she was released and escaped to Paris, where she remained for the rest of the decade. Working especially with Youth Aliyah, Arendt helped rescue Jewish children from the Third Reich and bring them to Palestine.


[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2005 10:02 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This alone I find unpalatable

Unpalatable, yes, anti-Semitic, no.

And Macabee, you've completely ignored the evidence about the fascistic and even pro-Nazi tendencies of Betar and Lehi. How can you denounce comparing to the Nazis groups that marched in brownshirts, called Jabotinsky "our Duce" and, in the case of Lehi, proposed an *alliance* with Hitler?


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2005 12:36 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What Macabee and his New Zionist co-thinkers are up to is sacrificing history on the altar of political expediency - trying to silence the debate by smearing all critics of Zionism as "anti-Semites" while at the same time burying the disgraceful and shocking fascist roots of the "Revisionist Zionist" movement that now rules Israel. The problem with this, aside from intellectual dishonesty, is it denudes the concept of anti-Semitism of any meaning thus, ultimately, making it much easier for true anti-Semites to function. It also gives cover to unreconstructed fascists on the right wing of the Zionist spectrum to carry on and grow.

It's quite frightening that some are so willing to sacrifice the interests of their fellow Jews in order to protect the Zionist distopia. Of course, this isn't the first time. Witness the eagerness in the 1980s of the CJC and American Zionists to lobby for "direct flights" from the Soviet Union to Tel Aviv in order to deny Soviet Jews the option of landing in a third country and declaring themselves refugees. Even worse, witness their lobbying of the Canadian and American government to revise their regulations so that Soviet Jews would no longer be automatically considered refugees! (Imagine, a Jewish lobby group, purportedly acting in the best interests of Jews, lobbying the government to try to make it *more difficult* for Jews to immigrate to Canada!).

"Let my people go" as long as the only place they could go is Israel. The result was an immediate drop in the number of Jews leaving the USSR and sure, if the 1991 coup had succeeded and the doors had shut again trapping Soviet Jews in what may have become a fascist country, well, that was worth it if it meant a few thousand extra bodies who could be directed to settlements in the West Bank. Was the CJC acting in the best interests of Soviet Jews when they lobbied for this or were they putting the interests of Israel first?

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554

posted 06 April 2005 12:59 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I asked in a previous post why people desecrate graves in the first place. As I re-read this thread today I think I have a partial answer.

If I assume that the people who have posted are representative of society in general then I hypothesize that the vandels get away with it because society debates the issues behind the vadelism rather than the act of vandelism.

I got to be honest I could care less about the reasons that these thugs had or the imagery used.

What I do care about is the desecration of graves. Whether it be a Catholic Cemetary, a Muslem Cemetary, a Jewish Cemetary. Whether it is the grave of the rich, the powerful, the educated or the common person. Whether I agree with the persons philosophy or actions makes no difference to me.

The desecration of any grave is an injustice of the worst kind. Simply put because the dead can not protect themselves.

Let us try to focus on the issue that is the desecration of graves. And yes this thread is about graves in Israel but you know what this is happening around the world to many of different cultures and backgrounds.


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 06 April 2005 01:05 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Today there are those of goodwill trying to bring this to an end and establish a democratic state of Palestine.

Being pro-Israel you will never acknowledge that a Palestinian state, the so-called two-state solution, has been murdered on the altar of Greater Israel. And you will argue, emphatically as though mouthing the word somehow conjures it, democracy, while ignoring that Israel is not democratic. Not at all.

Those people in the "occupied territories" as you call it, are ruled by a state and by laws over which they have no say. And they find themselves being cut off from their land and each other by encircling walls and communities awash in resources and wealth stolen from them.

And you, claiming to be pro-Israeli, can shrug off the abuses of the state, can ignore the injustice, the crulety, the hatred toward an entire people so long as you can claim Israel is Jewish.

And then you raise the spectre of anti-semetism?

There is indeed a racism and you promote and defend it every single day.

I don't know how you can look at yourself in the mirror.

You find yourserlf at odds with all the great people who have struggled and fought against racism and oppression and it is they and everyone else who is wrong while you comfort yourself in your Judaism -- an accident of your birth in the same way no white supremacist -- who employs the same logic and rationale as you for justifying his own racism -- had any say in the selection of his own skin color.

It is sad and pathetic and I don't know how day-after-day you can turn a blind eye to, and offer weak excuses, for the wall, the demolitions, the humiliations, the attacks, the malnutrition, the denial of the most basic of human rights in the name of Judaism and Israel.

It is wrong. That is all it is. Wrong.

And, again, today, Israel asserted its "right", democratic I assume, to expand settlements that will effectively divide the West Bank in two and cut off East Jerusalem from the Palestinians.


Israeli Democracy


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2005 01:10 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My point is that the interests of Israel are increasingly in conflict with the interest of Judaism and Jews. I don't think the New Zionists are truly acting in the "name of Judaism" but in the narrow interests of thier own ideology which long ago went off the rails.

Indeed, some of the worst anti-Semites are Zionists. Anyone read that New Yorker profile of the settler movement a year or so ago? The quotations from leaders of the settler movement are some of the most anti-Semitic things I've read. "Don't be such a Jew" one of the elder statesmen of the movement kept saying when his interlocuter starting asking him about Jewish traditions of compassion, humanism and internationalism.

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2005 02:34 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

--from the Einstein/Arendt letter


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 06 April 2005 03:59 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just love Wingnut's suppositions. He seems psychic. Perhaps we should all get together have Wingy tell us the numbers for the lottery. We cant lose. The guy knows everything. He is ominiscient.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2776

posted 06 April 2005 04:22 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I just love Wingnut's suppositions. He seems psychic. Perhaps we should all get together have Wingy tell us the numbers for the lottery. We cant lose. The guy knows everything. He is ominiscient.

Fuck, it wouldn't take a psychic to have predicted this kind of response.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 06 April 2005 04:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He's cute too, Mac.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2005 04:45 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know about the future but the historical record is rather clear. Macabee, do you agree or do you not that the Revisionist Zionist movement had fascistic overtones and that the comparison of Herut to fascists was justified given their roots in the openly fascist Betar movement?
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 06 April 2005 05:04 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know I seem to recall that Skdadl and others reacted rather critically to posted demands from other Babblers. It seems however that when it comes to me anything goes. Ahh its tough being a dissenter on Babble but when it comes to the Middle East thread someone must stand for democracy and justice.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 06 April 2005 05:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, Mac. You are outdoing yourself today.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 06 April 2005 05:12 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Any moment now he'll rip off his mask to reveal Jack Nicholson, and he'll say "The truth? You want the truth? You can't handle the truth..."
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 06 April 2005 05:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
PS: It is true (I was reading too fast before, and was doubled over laughing at Mac's closing bit of melodrama -- "Only I stand between civilization and its collapse on this board") that I have often protested anyone's attempts (well, usually Mac's) to call out another poster, to demand the equivalent of a loyalty oath from anyone, so I had better do that in this instance too.

Mycroft: tsk tsk. Mac doesn't have to answer you if he doesn't want to.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 06 April 2005 05:18 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Holy mackerel! I just realized: Mac was calling me out there! And I fell for it!

Och, the shame. My dad would never forgive me.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2005 05:56 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Still waiting for your answer Mac. Do you deny that the Revisionist Zionist movement has at least some roots in fascism, particularly the Betar movement led by future Israeli PM Menachem Begin? Do you deny that the Lehi (Stern Gang) of which future Likud PM Shamir was a member approached the Nazis to propose an alliance? Do you deny that the description endorsed by Hannah Arendt et al of Begin and Herut as being akin to fascism had validity?

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2005 06:13 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While we're at it, Macabee, do you deny that Shamir and Begin were both former terrorists?
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554

posted 06 April 2005 06:34 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
since this thread is about desecrating the graves of the dead i guess that it is only fitting that we now move on to talk about the dead.

quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
While we're at it, Macabee, do you deny that Shamir and Begin were both former terrorists?

This statement reminds me of a debate that a group of us had in grad school. The question was simple:

quote:
Is one person's terrorist another person's freedom fighter

I see that this thread will now become the Mycroft and Mac show debating that very point.

Hell of a thread drift if you ask me.

Unless of course this can be tied into grave desecration which in my opinion it can not be.

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2005 06:42 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So John Paul Jones, how would you describe the assassinations of Lord Moyne and Count Bernadotte, the blowing up of the King David Hotel not to mention Deir Yassin?

In any case, do you agree that the Revisionist Zioinst movement that gave birth to Herut and later Likud had a very strong fascist element? Or are you going to argue that one person's fascist is another person's freedom fighter?


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 06 April 2005 07:02 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
PS: It is true (I was reading too fast before, and was doubled over laughing at Mac's closing bit of melodrama -- "Only I stand between civilization and its collapse on this board") that I have often protested anyone's attempts (well, usually Mac's) to call out another poster, to demand the equivalent of a loyalty oath from anyone, so I had better do that in this instance too.

Mycroft: tsk tsk. Mac doesn't have to answer you if he doesn't want to.


My my thanks for the ringing support.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 06 April 2005 07:04 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
Still waiting for your answer Mac. Do you deny that the Revisionist Zionist movement has at least some roots in fascism, particularly the Betar movement led by future Israeli PM Menachem Begin? Do you deny that the Lehi (Stern Gang) of which future Likud PM Shamir was a member approached the Nazis to propose an alliance? Do you deny that the description endorsed by Hannah Arendt et al of Begin and Herut as being akin to fascism had validity?

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]



Do you deny . do you deny, do you deny do you deny...this is a dead parrot. This parrot has expired. See skadal's ringing rebuke of your posted harrassments.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 06 April 2005 07:05 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
While we're at it, Macabee, do you deny that Shamir and Begin were both former terrorists?
This fetish of denial you have is getting quite boring. Seek help

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 06 April 2005 07:07 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
So John Paul Jones, how would you describe the assassinations of Lord Moyne and Count Bernadotte, the blowing up of the King David Hotel not to mention Deir Yassin?

In any case, do you agree that the Revisionist Zioinst movement that gave birth to Herut and later Likud had a very strong fascist element? Or are you going to argue that one person's fascist is another person's freedom fighter?


My God you didnt ask him if he denied something. The pills must be working


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2005 07:34 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
C'mon Macabee, the evidence of the fascist roots of Revisionist Zionism is substantial yet you remain silent on Lehi's attempt to form an alliance with the Nazis as well as on Betar's fascistic antics in the 1930s. And yet, you suggest that anyone who calls Likud's leaders fascists is an anti-Semite even when the people being described are the same people who paraded in brown shirts in the 1930s.

Do you agree that any or all of Betar, Irgun or Lehi were fascist organizations? If not, why not?


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554

posted 06 April 2005 07:42 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mycroft you do not get it. I do not give one friggen damn about your mutual whip it out and see whose is bigger debate you are getting into here.

I am disgusted that this thread has turned into a debate on zionism rather than focussing on the fact that graves where desecrated.

I am now beginning to wonder if you do not care about grave desecration because you do not like the people whose graves where desecrated.

Very simply start another thread on your zionism fight and your argument of what constitutes terror.

This is a thread on the desecration of graves. And I really do not give a damn the reason behind whose grave was desecrated and why the people desecrated it. Rather I focus on the desecration of a grave.

I guess I am alone here but to me this is the worst type of crime since the victims can never fight back.

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
AppleSeed
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8513

posted 06 April 2005 07:50 PM      Profile for AppleSeed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And yet, you suggest that anyone who calls Likud's leaders fascists is an anti-Semite even when the people being described are the same people who paraded in brown shirts in the 1930s.

Bullcrap. It's like claiming Brezhnev and Andropov were the same people as Stalin and Beria. Great technique though. Zero points for style.

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: AppleSeed ]


From: In Dreams | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2005 08:03 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by AppleSeed:

Bullcrap. It's like claiming Brezhnev and Andropov were the same people as Stalin and Beria. Great technique though. Zero points for style.


You mean there was more than one Menachem Begin? Begin was leader of Poland's Betar movement in the 1930s, that means he has some responsibility for their fascist activities just as Yitzhak Shamir, a leading figure in Lehi, has some responsibility for that group's activities.

Or are you suggesting that no one in Betar in the 1930s ended up being a Herut or Likud Member of the Knesset? Sadly, it seems that many of those old fascists ended up not only serving in the Knesset, but serving in the Israeli cabinet, Begin and Shamir chief among them.

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2005 08:09 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:

I guess I am alone here but to me this is the worst type of crime since the victims can never fight back.


If you're seriously concerned about the perpetrators you should be fighting the right wing Zionist movement to which they belong rather than apologising for them or denying their fascist heritage.

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554

posted 06 April 2005 08:15 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
If you're seriously concerned about the perpetrators you should be fighting the right wing Zionist movement to which they belong.

If I am concerned. Now you are impuding my motives? I have said in every post here that any grave desecration disgusts me.

You have entered into a debate on who is worse than who.

Mycroft let me say this nicely to you ... I am concerned about grave desecration. I am concerned about the graves of Jews, Muslems, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Native peoples, Bhuddists, Jehova Witnesses and any one else whose grave has been destroyed.

So let me turn the tables on you. Where is your outrage that graves are being desecrated around the world right now as we speak.

If the grave of Arafat or Hussein, or Sadat, or the crypt at Westminster or the crypts at St. Peter's were being desicrated would you even care?

I really am beginning to doubt it.


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 06 April 2005 08:18 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I find this rather fascinating.

quote:
the evidence of the fascist roots of Revisionist Zionism is substantial yet you remain silent on Lehi's attempt to form an alliance with the Nazis as well as on Betar's fascistic antics in the 1930s. And yet, you suggest that anyone who calls Likud's leaders fascists is an anti-Semite even when the people being described are the same people who paraded in brown shirts in the 1930s.

This is true? My God, Macabee has skewered some Palestinian cleric (the mufti?) for supporting fascism. But this can be ignored? How convenient. And there is still a Betar organization?

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
AppleSeed
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8513

posted 06 April 2005 08:22 PM      Profile for AppleSeed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mycroft, if you know who desecrated those graves, I am sure that Israeli police could use your help.
From: In Dreams | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 April 2005 08:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
You know I seem to recall that Skdadl and others reacted rather critically to posted demands from other Babblers. It seems however that when it comes to me anything goes. Ahh its tough being a dissenter on Babble but when it comes to the Middle East thread someone must stand for democracy and justice.

So why do you insist on standing against it?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 April 2005 08:47 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
since this thread is about desecrating the graves of the dead i guess that it is only fitting that we now move on to talk about the dead.

I see that this thread will now become the Mycroft and Mac show debating that very point.



I dont think that is the issue at all. Mycroft has presented a set of evidences, not simply opinions. So far Macabee refuses to acknowledge or dispute the evidences presented by Mycroft, instead he has argued that they are irrelevant.

If you go back to the roots of this duscussion, Macabee declared that a poster was an antisemite, which in my view is a pretty serious charge. Macabee then justified this on the basis that any person who compares a jew, or Jewish people to Nazi's is a defacto racist.

Mycroft has presented evidence that a number of high profile Jews and Zionists have made similar comparisons to Nazi and specific Jews.

Mycroft is defending the rights of people to speak freely without being smeared willy-nilly. This is a serious issue, as there is a segement of the Zinoist movement (interetsingly the same segment which has the historical connections to the facist movements of the thirties) taht wishes to close down discussion about Israel.

It seems awfully convenient that the same persons who have the dirty laundry described by Mycroft, are declaring any such discussion that might raise the dirty laundry to the light, (by showing the direct links between their movement and the facist movements,) are automatically racist. How convenient, how very very convenient.

This disucussion is also topical as the primary suspect so far is the extreme Israeli right, the history of which Mycroft is detailing, inlcuding their associations with facist orgainzation, and their connections to the govenrment in power. To the original article:

quote:
The graves of slain Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and his wife, Leah, were found defaced in a Jerusalem cemetery Sunday, the latest in a wave of such incidents that police believe may be linked to ultranationalist Jews.


Sure this is a sad event, I feel it myself given that I have substantial respect for the cause that Rabin died for, but if there is to be no discussion of the political context of this desecration and the history and motives of potential suspects, what kind of commentray can we really have beyond muted and a-politcal mutterings of admonishement for the culprits?

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 06 April 2005 10:03 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More graves desecrated.

quote:
In the military section of the same cemetery on Friday, Nazi graffiti was found spray-painted on the graves of 12 fallen soldiers.

This is a new and very unwelcome development; I am starting to wonder just what in the H-E-double-hockey-sticks is going on.

[ 06 April 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2005 11:11 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And there is still a Betar organization?

Yes, they are the youth wing of Likud. They've also been linked to rather thuggish activity in countries like France, putting up anti-Arab posters in Arab neighbourhoods, phoning in death threats to left wing Jews etc. But of course we should give them a free ride because Zionists can never be fascists.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554

posted 07 April 2005 04:49 AM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I do not know much about Betar and the movement outside of Israel.

Mycroft you posted an interesting thing that I have quoted.

quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

Yes, they are the youth wing of Likud. They've also been linked to rather thuggish activity in countries like France, putting up anti-Arab posters in Arab neighbourhoods, phoning in death threats to left wing Jews etc. But of course we should give them a free ride because Zionists can never be fascists.


Do you have a link to some stories about this?

Too me if the Betar group is doing this in France then this is not about Zionism or Facism. To me this is about intimidation and hate mongering. Both of which i find disgustion no matter who does it.


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 07 April 2005 10:37 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:

This is a thread on the desecration of graves. And I really do not give a damn the reason behind whose grave was desecrated and why the people desecrated it. Rather I focus on the desecration of a grave.

That seems oddly pointless. If you omit any question of who did the deed, why they did it, and why they chose the particular victims they chose, what remains?
I guess, a thread where a half dozen people chime in and say "Isn't it awful!"
Well. Ahem:
Isn't it Awful!
There. Now I can go on about my business and not worry about what social circumstances give rise to such things or how they can be fought. I'll just wait until next time something bad happens. Then I'll cut and paste another
Isn't it Awful!

You know, that's a lot easier than actually trying to think about what's going on and why. I should have done this long ago. I've never felt so free!


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 07 April 2005 11:04 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
I do not know much about Betar and the movement outside of Israel.

Mycroft you posted an interesting thing that I have quoted.

Do you have a link to some stories about this?


No, my source is via email.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 07 April 2005 12:01 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I recommend this program which was on PBS in the U.S. this week:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/

It depicts the Zionist fundamentalists who want to drive the Palestinians out of the west bank and impose a theocracy on what is at least a semi-secular state.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 07 April 2005 02:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Too me if the Betar group is doing this in France then this is not about Zionism or Facism. To me this is about intimidation and hate mongering. Both of which i find disgustion no matter who does it.


Sorry to nitpick, but isn't Facism largely about "intimidation and hate mongering?" Are you saying there are nice guy, pluralist facists, who don't have the absolute authority of the state and the purity of the nation as their top priority?

[ 07 April 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 April 2005 02:42 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The question hangs in the air as the thread closes for length.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Open Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca