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» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Daniel Pipes is coming to town

   
Author Topic: Daniel Pipes is coming to town
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 29 March 2005 09:44 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Forgive me if this is a duplicate thread but I can't find an earlier one. I also wasn't sure which forum this belonged in, but I knew that Michelle would covet it, so I put it here.

Daniel Pipes will be speaking at U of T today. From the Globe and Mail.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 March 2005 09:54 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please email The Honourable Joe Volpe, P.C., M.P.
Citizenship and Immigration Canada at minister@cic.gc.ca and demand Canada bar Daniel Pipes from entry in keeping with Canada's custom of barring other racists and hate mongerers, such as David Irving, from our country.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 March 2005 10:13 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But you see Volpe is one of the Cabinet Ministers who signed the policy development document wherein he and a group of other liberal policy buffs reccomend more or less unconditional support of Israel. Parroting Pipeisms, such as repeated UN resolutions condemning Israel's occupation of the West Bank are evidence that Israel is persecuted by the UN (not that Israel is doing anything wrong of course by occupying the West Bank,) and that Canada should not be too judgemental of the means through which Israel handles its security measures (rocket assassinations, house demolitions, etc.) Frankly the document stated more or less explicitly that Canada should refrain from any criticism of Israel whatsoever, and vote lock step with the US in support of Israel at the UN.

It was a disgusting read. Don't be to shocked if Volpe has Pipes over for tea, whatever people may write to him about Pipes racist ideas.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 March 2005 10:16 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree. The Liberals have no respect for human rights or justice. But we should still write our objections. When we stop objecting to racism, we have lost.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 March 2005 10:29 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It could have been issued from the offices of Ariel Sharon. It certainly reads like a Likud "talking point" bulletin. An example of Volpes views, from the document A Proposal for a Canadian Position on Israel and the Middle East

quote:
Unfortunately, the conflict in the Middle East is undermining the credibility of
the United Nations, turning it into a partisan platform for anti-Israeli rhetoric. That is not
the fault of the United Nations as an institution, but rather the fault of member states with a one-sided interest in the Israeli-Palestinian and the Arab-Israeli conflicts. This anti-Israeli lobby has managed to institute a systematic discrimination of the Jewish state at
the UN by hijacking the agenda of its various bodies.

The fact that Israel has repeatedly violated the intergrity of the national borders of ever single state that it borders, and continues to occupy sginificant territories of 2 neighboring states is irrelevant to Volpes number crunching proof of the so-called anti-Israeli bias.

We should be protesting Volpe not Pipes.

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 29 March 2005 10:57 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
God dam it, didn't we just deport one hate monger? Email sent ... for all the good it does.

Is there a protest happening? What time? Where?

Time for Canadians to practice our own rights of free speech and freedom of assembly and if it just happens to intersect with Pipes' rights (more rights than a non-citizen visitor to his country would ever receive BTW) that's just too bad.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 29 March 2005 11:21 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Grope article says that there will be a protest outside St Mike's sometime today (not much help) and also says that Pipes is speaking this evening (but not where).
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 29 March 2005 12:29 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What bothers me about this whole idea of banning an speaker is that it shows that "we" do not have enough faith in the current crop of students to formulate their own opinions on what is factually correct and what is an outright lie.

That being said, I have no problem banning Pipes from giving his lecture as long all speakers who views are called hostile and factually in accurate are banned. And that means that we must also fight against any speaker who while we agree fully with their message is deemed to be contravertial.

Therefore since I call for Pipes to be banned I would also have to support Pro-Israeli groups who demand that Norman Finkelstein be banned

And now that we are banning all we are taking away the ability of students to make up their own minds on an issue and formulate their own opionions on an issue.


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 29 March 2005 12:32 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I certainly hope Pipes is allowed to speak. And I hope there a lot of progressives in the audience ready to ask the kind of question that his ideological ilk can never answer. To wit: anything to do with minimal morality.

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: Coyote ]


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 29 March 2005 12:35 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Miles, I think groups wanting to ban Daniel Pipes from speaking are doing so on the basis of racist statements he has made, not because he is pro-Israeli-policy per se. I suspect you would be highly amenable to protests against anti-semites (as would I).

Edited to add: What I've seen here is a protest, which is not a call to ban anyone as such.

I'm not a Norman Finkelstein fan - I think he has shown poor judgement in citing negationists and that his book on the Holocaust business or whatever it is is facile and overly conspiratorial, (see Enzo Traverso's critique of Finkelstein's book in the review "Historical Materialism") but he hasn't made racist statements about any group, or called for violence or ethnic cleaning against any group, certainly not Jews or Palestinians.

Here is the reference for the Traverso review article on Finkelstein and Novick: Historical Materialism, Volume 11 Issue 2 (...) ENZO TRAVERSO on Norman Finkelstein’s The Holocaust Industry. Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering, and Peter Novick’s The Holocaust in American Life (...)

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 29 March 2005 12:56 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I sent an email to Volpe, not asking to ban Pipes (although I did suggest he never should be allowed in Canada in the first place for the same reasons Zundel not be allowed) but instead that his speech be closely monitored for violations of Canada's hate speech laws. And if there are violations, then immediate action be taken.
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
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posted 29 March 2005 05:59 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post
No one should be banned for their views. Not Hitler fans,no one. Tacticly this can be used by reactionaries against progressives in certain situations.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 March 2005 06:44 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In a perfect world, no. But other hate mongers are denied entry to Canada. White supremacists are routinely denied entry into Canada. Why is this racist, hate monger allowed in? Is it okay in Canada to hate people if they happen to moslem or Arab? Is that the government's messsage?

Who would defend a klan or white power rally?

[ 29 March 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 29 March 2005 06:50 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Was any kind of a protest action organized for the Daniel Pipes event? When Daniel Pipes spoke at UBc on December 5th 2003, about 100 people, myself included, held a vocal protest outside the theatre in the SUB where Daneil Pipes spoke. We did not manage to shut down the event, but we did manage to force Pipes to leave through the back door.

Another thing. Where is the NDP on the issue of Daniel Pipes. Daniel Pipes is as disgusting as George Bush. Mind you, Layton took a pretty weak tack at the time of the Bush visit.


From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 29 March 2005 07:10 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Please email The Honourable Joe Volpe, P.C., M.P.
Citizenship and Immigration Canada at minister@cic.gc.ca and demand Canada bar Daniel Pipes from entry in keeping with Canada's custom of barring other racists and hate mongerers, such as David Irving, from our country.

If Pipes does not have a criminal record or has not been convicted of any hate related crime he cannot be kept out of Canada. His agenda is not my agenda. I dont like what he has to say but we do live in a free and democratic society and thankfully he's allowed to speak. And anyone is allowed within the limits of the law to make your displeasure felt.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 29 March 2005 07:20 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, would you feel the same about an anti-semite who hasn't been convicted of a hate crime?

I'm not particularly fond of bans of speakers unless they directly advocate violence and prefer protest, but Pipes has said some horrid things about Arabs, Muslims, and "swarthy" people and their "smelly" food. By the way, the latter would encompass a slight majority of the Jewish population of Israel, with their olive skin and lovely Sephardic and Middle Eastern food.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 29 March 2005 08:27 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If Pipes does not have a criminal record or has not been convicted of any hate related crime he cannot be kept out of Canada. His agenda is not my agenda. I dont like what he has to say but we do live in a free and democratic society and thankfully he's allowed to speak.

You don't agree with Pipes, but your glad he will be allowed to speak? Isn't this statement contradictory?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 March 2005 08:32 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If Pipes does not have a criminal record or has not been convicted of any hate related crime he cannot be kept out of Canada. His agenda is not my agenda. I dont like what he has to say but we do live in a free and democratic society and thankfully he's allowed to speak. And anyone is allowed within the limits of the law to make your displeasure felt.

So you would have no problem with a holocaust denier convicted of breaking no Canadian laws to speak at a Canadian University?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 29 March 2005 09:10 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...but we do live in a free and democratic society

This coming from a man (I'm assuming you're a man) who, given the opportunity would ban all criticism of the Israeli state and label all Canadian citizens who make anti Israeli statements as anti-Semites?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 29 March 2005 09:53 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If Pipes actually is such a hateful racist, why doesn't someone approach the Toronto police and show them the evidence that exists that he is in violation of Canada's hate laws and see that he gets charged?
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 March 2005 10:27 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know Tranna is the centre of the universe, and therefore encompasses all known humanity and whatnot, but why is this thread in the Middle East Forum?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
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posted 29 March 2005 10:28 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does this answer your question?

quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I also wasn't sure which forum this belonged in, but I knew that Michelle would covet it, so I put it here. [/URL]

From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 March 2005 10:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Forgive me if this is a duplicate thread but I can't find an earlier one. I also wasn't sure which forum this belonged in, but I knew that Michelle would covet it, so I put it here. [/URL]

Oh gawd no!

Lemme think, lemme think...quickly, quickly...

The Manitoba/Ontario/Quebec forum should do nicely!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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