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Author Topic: Arab Practice of Apartheid against Israel
Zaklamont
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posted 12 March 2005 05:34 PM      Profile for Zaklamont        Edit/Delete Post
References are made to Isreal practicing apartheid on this site and elsewhere.

Let's have a look at the practice of apartheid towards Israel, in history and currently.

*In history, for decades the Arab League formed campaigns threatening companies trading with Israel, isolating and weakening the Israeli economy.

* Currently, the Palestinian school system presents maps of the Middle East that omit the State of Israel.

* Currently , on the internet, one can find sites such as Mideast Web where a list of countries omits any mention of Israel, although Israel is an integral part of the Middle East

* Currently, Arab and Islamic countries have succeeded in pressuring Red Cross International
into refusing recognition of the Israeli Star of David ambulance and first aid service, although the Red Crescent Service has been operating for years with its name and emblem in place.

* At the United Nations , Arab and Third World countries have sidelined and marginalized the State of Israel so that it can not even join
U.N. sub-organizations covering its geopolitical area.

The list could go on, but the point is , when there is talk of apartheid, one should not forget that what's good for the goose is good for the gander.


From: Ottawa Ontario | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 12 March 2005 05:59 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the word you're looking for is "boycott".
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 12 March 2005 06:11 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zaklamont:
References are made to Isreal practicing apartheid on this site and elsewhere.

Let's have a look at the practice of apartheid towards Israel, in history and currently.

*In history, for decades the Arab League formed campaigns threatening companies trading with Israel, isolating and weakening the Israeli economy.


This is not apartheid, it's a boycott or sanctions.

quote:

* Currently, the Palestinian school system presents maps of the Middle East that omit the State of Israel.



Do maps in Israeli classrooms show the green line or do they depict the occupied territories as part of Israel?
quote:

* Currently , on the internet, one can find sites such as Mideast Web where a list of countries omits any mention of Israel, although Israel is an integral part of the Middle East

Currently, on the internet, one can find sites which omit any mention of Palestine and treat the West Bank and Gaza as integral parts of Israel.

For instance this Israeli website

quote:

* Currently, Arab and Islamic countries have succeeded in pressuring Red Cross International
into refusing recognition of the Israeli Star of David ambulance and first aid service, although the Red Crescent Service has been operating for years with its name and emblem in place.


More serious is the fact that Israel has refused to sign the 1949 Geneva Convention against collective punishment.
quote:

* At the United Nations , Arab and Third World countries have sidelined and marginalized the State of Israel so that it can not even join
U.N. sub-organizations covering its geopolitical area.


Israel has refused to implement a number of UN resolutions on refugees, boundaries etc for numerous decades. Hard to argue that a country that ignores UN resolutions should be permitted full participation in the UN.

quote:

The list could go on, but the point is , when there is talk of apartheid, one should not forget that what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

So does that mean that the Security Council should impose sanctions against Israel and sanction military action against the country as long as it refuses to abide by UN resolutions? After all that's what happened to Iraq and "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Insurrection
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posted 12 March 2005 06:22 PM      Profile for Insurrection     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zaklamont:
point is , when there is talk of apartheid, one should not forget that what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Ah no. Maybe in your imagination. I don't think that the meaning of aparthied or the gross human rights violations of Israel match your kind of "goose-gander" reductionism.


From: exit in the world | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 12 March 2005 09:09 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why do we never hear from moderate Zionists on this board? Why do we only get racist whckjobs who would sell their own grandmothers into slavery if they thought it would raise money for the occupation? I wish our comrades in Gush Shalom would come for a visit.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 14 March 2005 08:21 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps if you demonstarted some understanding and more important acknowledge the right of Israel to exist as a democratic Jewish state you might see more moderate Zionists here. Those "moderate Zionists" ie from Meretz and other progressives to whom I have shown this site believe that many here would wish for the demise of the Jewish state. It is understandable therefore that they would not want to give the site legitimacy by attending here.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 14 March 2005 08:35 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The moderate Zionist's misunderstanding of babbler's stand on Israel is quite predictable, Macabbee, if their journey to this site is being filtered through your lies.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 14 March 2005 12:43 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Perhaps if you demonstarted some understanding and more important acknowledge the right of Israel to exist as a democratic Jewish state you might see more moderate Zionists here. Those "moderate Zionists" ie from Meretz and other progressives to whom I have shown this site believe that many here would wish for the demise of the Jewish state. It is understandable therefore that they would not want to give the site legitimacy by attending here.

You are such a blowhard, Macabee. I've had more "radical" discussions with Israelis than would ever occur here. For you, "poisoning the well" is not just a pastime - it's an art.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 14 March 2005 01:12 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How odd. By Mac's logic, his very presence on babbIe should cause most of us to stop posting here.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 March 2005 01:48 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:

For you, "poisoning the well" is not just a pastime - it's an art.

Poisoning the well. How apt.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 March 2005 02:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Perhaps if you demonstarted some understanding and more important acknowledge the right of Israel to exist as a democratic Jewish state you might see more moderate Zionists here.

Why should anyone engage in such a specious intellectual enterprise as recognizing the right of any state to exist. States exist or they do not, it is that simple. Their moral legitimacy rests entirely on their achievements. Things would be better if Israel could demonstrate it democratic pretension, in deed not just words. The lie is so profound that you do not even acknowledge that Israel is not even a "Jewish state" given that 50% of the people who live under the mandate of its laws, its police and its army are not Jews.

Israel's inability to recognize that it is not just a "Jewish state" (however much some people who live in that state wish it were,) is the foil upon which all these musing about "democractic" Israel are being tested and found wanting, daily.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 14 March 2005 02:06 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And more to the point, I could live with the pretensions to "democracy" very easily of Israel stopped being a colonial power in the most literal and brutal sense.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 14 March 2005 08:45 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All I have ever done is give people the URL to Babble. All they then have to do is read. It is all very clear. I poison no wells. I resent the inference. Many here do enough poisoning for all.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 14 March 2005 08:47 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Perhaps if you demonstarted some understanding and more important acknowledge the right of Israel to exist as a democratic Jewish state you might see more moderate Zionists here. Those "moderate Zionists" ie from Meretz and other progressives to whom I have shown this site believe that many here would wish for the demise of the Jewish state. It is understandable therefore that they would not want to give the site legitimacy by attending here.

Macabee, I was hoping you'd post to the thread about the declining support for Israel among American Jews, particularly youth.

Despite the bellicosity of Hillel and other youth groups that claim to represent the opinion of Jewish youth, the fact is that these groups and other groups which "officially" represent the Jewish community are speaking for a decreasing number of Jews as more and more Jews, particularly the young, look at what's being done in Israel with despair and are alienated by it.

[ 14 March 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 14 March 2005 08:52 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From wikipedia:
quote:
Poisoning the well is a preemptive logical fallacy where unfavorable information about someone is presented to an audience, with the intent of discrediting everything said by that person beforehand.

The origin of this phrase comes from the belief in medieval times that outbreaks of plague were caused by Jews poisoning the water supply. Suggesting that someone was not to be trusted after accusing them of the unrelated crime of poisoning the water was effective rhetoric, but bad logic.

Examples:
Before you listen to my opponent, may I remind you that he has been in jail.
Don't listen to what he says, he's a lawyer.
Poisoning the well is a special case of argumentum ad hominem.


[ 14 March 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 14 March 2005 08:52 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ladies, gentlemen, all those in between, I bring you "IRONY":
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
I resent the inference.
Do you just.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 14 March 2005 08:56 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For the record, I had no idea about the midieval antecedent of the the phrase; I was referring solely to the logical fallacy. I sincerely doubt Cueball's intention was to draw on that blood-libel, either.

Edited to add: And why would he? He would only be libelling (sp?) himself.

[ 14 March 2005: Message edited by: Coyote ]


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 14 March 2005 08:58 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
I sincerely doubt Cueball's intention was to draw on that blood-libel, either.

Rewritten to say:

Oops, I think I misread Cueball's posts. I thought he was taking a Zionist position and implying that those critical of Zionists were being anti-Semitic.

My apologies

[ 14 March 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 14 March 2005 09:12 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What are you talking about?
Cue is Jewish, and I've seen absolutely no evidence that he is self hating. Why would he go out of his way to attack other Jews with anti semitic slurs?

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 14 March 2005 09:37 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
See the post before yours which I've rewritten. I misread Cueball's posts. My apologies.
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 14 March 2005 10:11 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Much hand wringing and apologies all the way around. Excellent.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 March 2005 10:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
None though relating to anyones criticism of your dithering hypocrisies.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 14 March 2005 10:55 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow. What a Mish.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 15 March 2005 12:54 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
May I bring the thread back on track and point out the speciousness of the thread title? You cannot practice apartheid against a nation. It doesn't work like that.

Apartheid refers to a systematic legal practice of two-tier law, one for a favored ethnic group and another for a disfavored ethnic group, with the intent of maintaining the favored legal, economic and social status of the favored group.

B'Tselem, an organization given the Zionist stamp of approval by Macabee, has itself used the term to describe Israel's practice of applying, selectively, Israeli law to the Occupied Territories wherein settlements by Jewish settlers are, de facto, under the same laws as those which exist for Israel proper, while the Palestinians are subject to military law and, where convenient for Arik the bulldozer, are nominally claimed to be under Palestinian Authority jurisdiction, which is a joke in itself.

PS: How to win any argument on the internet: Macabee's primer.

[ 15 March 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 15 March 2005 01:21 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Much hand wringing and apologies all the way around. Excellent.

Yet still no comment from you on the declining support for Israel among North American Jews. Surely you must have some thoughts on the topic. Don't you think this suggests that major Jewish community organizations like Bnai Brith and CJC are out of touch with the Jewish community by racheting up the Zionist rhetoric (particularly the "anti-Zionist = anti-Semitism" fallacy?)


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
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posted 15 March 2005 01:38 AM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:

For you, "poisoning the well" is not just a pastime - it's an art.


Aren't you exaggerating a bit?

[ 15 March 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 15 March 2005 08:02 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Wow. What a Mish.
Your obsession (and that of many others) on "Mish" remains a curiosity

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 15 March 2005 08:09 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

Yet still no comment from you on the declining support for Israel among North American Jews. Surely you must have some thoughts on the topic. Don't you think this suggests that major Jewish community organizations like Bnai Brith and CJC are out of touch with the Jewish community by racheting up the Zionist rhetoric (particularly the "anti-Zionist = anti-Semitism" fallacy?)


Good point. Interestingly the article does not suggest a majority of Young Jews have changed only that there has been a change in the numbers. Indeed 66% remain strong in their support of Israel. In fact more are saying they will visit Israel than before. Though it is interesting and I believe a good sign that a minority are critical of policy that maintains the present occupation as is.

Secondly this is an American poll not Canadian. Do you have any Canadian stats? Very often this country is decidedly different in its attitudes to their American cousins.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 15 March 2005 08:14 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
B'Tselem, an organization given the Zionist stamp of approval by Macabee, .


[ 15 March 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


I have been critical and supportive of B'tselem depending on the issue. I dont give "seals of approval" Doc. Why would you say that?


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 15 March 2005 08:15 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by VanLuke:


Aren't you exaggerating a bit?

[ 15 March 2005: Message edited by: VanLuke ]


Par for the course here ...

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 15 March 2005 09:03 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Good point. Interestingly the article does not suggest a majority of Young Jews have changed only that there has been a change in the numbers. Indeed 66% remain strong in their support of Israel. In fact more are saying they will visit Israel than before. Though it is interesting and I believe a good sign that a minority are critical of policy that maintains the present occupation as is.

Secondly this is an American poll not Canadian. Do you have any Canadian stats? Very often this country is decidedly different in its attitudes to their American cousins.


No Canadian stats. Perhaps CJC or BB should commission one and specifically ask "do you agree that anti-Zionism is a form of anti-Semitism?" before embarassing the Canadian Jewish community by propounding that it is?

By this definition, by the way, groups like Hashomer Hatzair in the 1940s would be cosidered "anti-Semitic" for advocating a binational stateas would a great number of Jewish scholars and leaders who opposed Zionism or were binationalists.

[ 15 March 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
fuschiashock
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posted 15 March 2005 09:23 AM      Profile for fuschiashock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If I lived in an arab country, I would certainly support a boycott on Israel. State sponsered terrorism sounds to me like a pretty good reason to do so.
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 15 March 2005 10:26 AM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by fuschiashock:
If I lived in an arab country, I would certainly support a boycott on Israel. State sponsered terrorism sounds to me like a pretty good reason to do so.

I agree but then if I boycotted all nations that in some way either officially sponsoring or turning a blind eye to state sponsership of terrorism there would not be many nations left for me to like.


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 15 March 2005 10:41 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
jpj, I agree that it is impossible to be pure.

But there are often reasons for targeting egregious human-rights violations, shining a spotlight on them, perhaps because one senses that a tipping-point may be near, or maybe just because, eg, it makes one vomit to hear that our former prime minister is making cozy with a vile torturing Central Asian dictator on behalf of Canadian oil companies.

We probably all have our own sets of alarm bells: mine would certainly include, eg, Burma, Uzbekistan, China, the U.S., and Israel.

And I think that's good, actually. No one can do everything, but if we all make a few commitments, resistance to injustice may begin to register broadly.

[ 15 March 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 15 March 2005 09:37 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

No Canadian stats. Perhaps CJC or BB should commission one and specifically ask "do you agree that anti-Zionism is a form of anti-Semitism?" before embarassing the Canadian Jewish community by propounding that it is?

By this definition, by the way, groups like Hashomer Hatzair in the 1940s would be cosidered "anti-Semitic" for advocating a binational stateas would a great number of Jewish scholars and leaders who opposed Zionism or were binationalists.

[ 15 March 2005: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


Interesting. Perhaps these groups have already done this work. From my read of Canadians through the media, friends and anecdotally there still seems to be a close affinity with both the Jewish people and Israel. But then perhaps I travel in differnet crowds.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 16 March 2005 02:12 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, perhaps you do.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 16 March 2005 11:49 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I understand but that doesn't make my experience any more or less than yours.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 16 March 2005 02:52 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No it doesn't. But my impression is that many Jews, in particular those who are athiest but of Jewish heritage and so don't seek out the traditional centers of gravity within the community, at the least are very ambivalent about Israel, and at the greatest find themselves antagonistic.

All communities experience the process of sloughing off of persons who reject the traditions of the ancestors. In a survey would these apostate Jews even bother to answer a questionair as a Jew, or would they simply note that they were atheist and thereby count themselves out of the survey altogether?

[One should ask, how was the survey group selected, if one wanted to rightly know how all persons who could rightly claim Jewish heritage felt about the issue of Israel.]

Consequently, I think a false impression is created by the very vocal center core of the Jewish community, much of which is deeply influenced by the entrenched Zinoist agenda. I argue that actually Zionism has acted as a wedge wich has deeply devided the Jewish community, and has actually driven away huge numbers of persons who are offended by the ethnic cleansing of Arabs by Israel in the name of all Jews, everywhere, because along with the tendency of tightly knit social groups toward social entropy, there is the added impetus of the highly charged Zionist agenda that makes it difficult to take part in Jewish life and not be a Zionist, or support the Zionist cause -- Even by donating to most Jewish organizations, one is at the same time usually indirectly donating to the settlers movement.

Among other things, I am simply tired of being identified publically with Israel, and it is the underlying context that immediatly arises when my Jewishness comes up. Fuck Israel I say. It has nothing to do with me.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
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posted 17 March 2005 01:08 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Macabee:
the right of Israel to exist as a democratic Jewish state you might see more moderate Zionists here.

You mean the right to be an ethnocentric state of institutionalized racism. Also the right to kick people off their land and not expect them to to return.

quote:
Indeed 66% remain strong in their support of Israel.

And a generation from now it will probably be 33 percent. The one the one thing that makes the Palestinian struggle sustainable and the Zionist movement not so is the fact that Today's Palestinians are not forgetting like Old Ben predicted. Isreal within 10 years I predict will become the South Africa sequal to the world and hopefully the result will be the same. There was a secret leaked goverment study that fears this.

Oh and Desmond Tutu has suggested this is worse then South Africa. Tells ya something.

[ 17 March 2005: Message edited by: Vigilante ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged

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