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Author Topic: The Further Adventures of Israeli Apartheid
Coyote
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posted 04 January 2005 05:45 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just continuing from the former:
Cueball to Phonicidal:
quote:
But the Jewish settlers living in the West Bank have left Israel willingly. Should they not also have their Israeli citizenship revoked?

Phonicidal's response:

quote:
Well, they don't believe that they have left Israel at all. And, as long as they are still committed to Israeli society they should be citizens, just as a Canadian who moves to the USA may be able to retain their Canadian citizenship rather than renounce it.


I picked up on this gem from the above quote:

quote:

Well, they don't believe that they have left Israel at all.

I ask Phonicidal: Does he agree with the settlers?


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 04 January 2005 10:01 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would also ask if a Canadian moved to the USA, with his Canadian citizenship intact , would he expect, if he has a problem with his American neighbour, that the Canadian government would build a security fence around his home (even to the point of building that fence to encompas a good portion of his neighbours land,) and send in the Canadian military to shoot any of the American neighbours children if they wandered too close to that fence?
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 04 January 2005 11:50 AM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
I ask Phonicidal: Does he agree with the settlers?
First, before I answer, there is a reason that threads get closed. I think that we've exhausted most of this discussion. But, I will continue in good will, on one condition. As soon as Cueball enters this thread, I'm done with it. I do not feel that he can debate this issue in good faith.

Your answer: I agree that the Jewish residents of the territories are in the Land of Israel. On that point, History is clear and is not up for debate. But, at the same time, they are not in the State of Israel. So, it depends on how you define "Israel" in a given circumstance.


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 January 2005 12:21 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You mean if I post you will stop using this board as a forum for youi to propogate your prejudiced ideas about Muslims. You mean it might actually be possible to prevent you from posting things like:

quote:
But, I think it would be fair to say that they (Arab-Muslims) are culturally predisposed to Jew hatred.

And as for good faith, you have shown none. You have not even answered the question. The question was asked in terms of the state of Israel, not historical Israel, as you well know, as the entire discussion has taken place in that context. Your post is completely disingenous, it is as if you think that by making a clever rhetorical finesse you can change reality.

So, is the West Bank part of the State of Israel or not, in your opinion?

[ 04 January 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 04 January 2005 12:39 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks folks. But, if I am to engage you in further discussion, it'll have to be on a different thread. Or, feel free to PM me to find out what I actually believe, as opposed to what you are being told I believe by others.
From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 January 2005 12:53 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Its pretty clear what you believe.

But it also now appears that you have run out of logical corners to hide in, and you are trapped in the web of rhetorical logic games you have been playing and are now using me as an excuse to run away.

Run away then.

[ 04 January 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 04 January 2005 01:01 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Clear as a bell. For Jews the law can twist in every direction to accomodate their every whim but for Arabs it is rigid and exclusionary. That is the essence of apartheid, right?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 04 January 2005 03:12 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What Land of Israel is Phoni talking about? One that was alleged to have existed 2000+ years ago, as opposed the State of Israel formed 50 years ago?

By those parameters then all peoples must leave their countries and take back land stolen from them by invading armies over the last 2000 years.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 04 January 2005 03:38 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Phonicidal:
I do not feel that he can debate this issue in good faith.

My goodness--Phonicidal wants to restrict discussion to people who can debate in good faith? I guess he's gonna have to shut up, then.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 04 January 2005 04:32 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Clear as a bell. For Jews the law can twist in every direction to accomodate their every whim but for Arabs it is rigid and exclusionary. That is the essence of apartheid, right?
Why do you identify them as Jews? Why are the Arabs identified as Arabs and not Muslims?

Seems like all of us aare prone to stereotyping at one time or another .


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 04 January 2005 04:53 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are all Arabs muslim? Are all Palestinians muslim? How many Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza are not Jewish?

Why are you stereotyping all Arabs as Muslim?

[ 04 January 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 January 2005 05:04 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That raises an interesting question.

What do you call the settlers on the West Bank, Macabee? Do you call them Israeli settlers?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 January 2005 07:45 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Just continuing from the former:

Have I told you lately that I hate you?

Kidding, kidding.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 January 2005 07:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
You mean if I post you will stop using this board as a forum for youi to propogate your prejudiced ideas about Muslims.

Gee, that was easy. Why didn't we think of that before?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 04 January 2005 07:48 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha! Just doing my bit, Michelle. Can't blame a guy for trying.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 04 January 2005 08:49 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Are all Arabs muslim? Are all Palestinians muslim? How many Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza are not Jewish?

Why are you stereotyping all Arabs as Muslim?

[ 04 January 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]


I know for example of one settlement that has a number of Christian families. The point is you are showing your stripes and you are trying to get out of it by turning it on me. Nice try.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 04 January 2005 08:50 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
That raises an interesting question.

What do you call the settlers on the West Bank, Macabee? Do you call them Israeli settlers?



And what do you think of Wing's characterization?

Oh and yes they are Israeli citizens for now.

[ 04 January 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]

[ 04 January 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 05 January 2005 02:13 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think Wingnut has established through long study that Israel consders itself the Jewish state. He has also noticed that part of its Apartheid policies is allowing Jewish only immigration more or less (as well as "guest workers" -- a nice little bit of oppression that BTW) but that it, once having converted Jewish immigrants to Israel into citizens it has also made it its business to export said Jewish persons to neighboring territories. Israel, as 'the' Jewish state is not in the business of settling Hindus in the West Bank.

You weren't aware that Israel considers itself a Jewish state, I guess. and the settlers are... guess what? Jewish!

I believe he has also noticed that the Arabs of the West Bank are not exclusively of one religious group, nor is their main stream leadership proposing that they form a religious state, unlike Israel. Therefore it would be inappropriate to say they were Muslims, as they are not all Muslims, nor is it true that they (except for some fringe organizations) intend to form a state based on Islam.

Therefore Wingnuts definitions fit entirely within the framework of Israels national mission, and names clearly the benefactories of the Zinoist-Apartheid as Jews.

Would it be a problem for you to note that the benefactors of South African Apartheid were white people?

[ 05 January 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 05 January 2005 09:13 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No my only real problem is your unbrideled hatred of Israel/Israelis and Jews. Your hyper criticism of anything Israeli is so out of whack that anything you may postulate about Israel MUST be seen through this bias prism.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 05 January 2005 09:22 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, criticism of Israeli is unbrideled hatred. And support of Israel's racist policies is unbridled racism. Which Israeli settlement is Christian, Macabee? You know about it, share?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 January 2005 09:56 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Aren't a lot of the settlers actually Brooklynese? (A self-hating Brooklynese friend of mine made that observation once...).

Criticism of Israeli policy, and opposition to the occupation, are not anti-semitism. Hatred of Jews is anti-semitism. But hating someone who happens to be Jewish (Henry Kissinger comes to mind) is not anti-semitism.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 05 January 2005 10:32 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
No my only real problem is your unbrideled hatred of Israel/Israelis and Jews.

This is your second warning. Call Cueball a Jew-hater again, and you'll get your third one, and Audra can decide what accompanies that, if anything.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 05 January 2005 03:34 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
No my only real problem is your unbrideled hatred of Israel/Israelis and Jews. Your hyper criticism of anything Israeli is so out of whack that anything you may postulate about Israel MUST be seen through this bias prism.

Speaking as someone else who you've attacked before with little provocation, I must say that this characterization of Cueball is wholly unfounded and is liberally salted with emotionalism, which seems to be your stock in trade.

I don't hate Israelis or Jews. I do hate people who harm others, and both IDF soldiers and their commanding officers, as well as Hamas suicide bombers and their superiors are guilty of this.

Macabee, you won't get anywhere making your points if all you do, constantly, is salt your posts with rank, cheap emotionalism, or sanctimonious finger-wagging.

[ 05 January 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 05 January 2005 04:29 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

This is your second warning. Call Cueball a Jew-hater again, and you'll get your third one, and Audra can decide what accompanies that, if anything.


I take it back then. He is not a Jew-hater.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 05 January 2005 07:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I thought about my interest in Israel, and I realized that one of the thing that keeps me going on the issue is the wild lengths people will go to defend what is so obviously wrong. The intellectual chicanery used in the defence is so mindbogglingly offensive that it requires a response. If you spent less time defending the indefensible, you would probably find that peoples stands were much softer, but no, you insist.

Why can't you just admit that having one law for Jews and one for Arabs is simply wrong, and racist.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 05 January 2005 07:36 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree, Cueball. Sometimes, I think the deep sympathy I and others have for the Israeli people gets undermined by apologists for the occupation, who conflate the people and the policy for their own purposes.

Give me Uri Avnery, for all his flaws, over Hamas or Islamic Jihad any day.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 05 January 2005 07:39 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why can't you just admit that having one law for Jews and one for Arabs is simply wrong, and racist.


If that existed I would admit it. However having lived in Israel and knowing a bit about it all citizens of Israel are equal before the law.

Now does that mean that the law gets applied equally ALL the time? Sadly no. In fact I have seen poor Israelis treated far worse than rich Israelis. I have seen orthodox Jews treated shabbily as i have seen secular Jews treated poorly by the orthodox. I have seen Israeli police hassel poor Israeli Arabs and have seen homeless isralis treated like shit by police as well.

Its not a perfect place...then again I havent found perfection in many countries so why should Israel be different? As long as it strives to better itself. With groups including Civil Libertarians , progressive Gay alliances, Activits against poverty and many more I have faith thatmuch will change for the better

[ 05 January 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 05 January 2005 07:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If that existed I would admit it. However having lived in Israel and knowing a bit about it all citizens of Israel are equal before the law.


Case in point.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 05 January 2005 08:10 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
If that existed I would admit it. However having lived in Israel and knowing a bit about it all citizens of Israel are equal before the law.

Now does that mean that the law gets applied equally ALL the time? Sadly no.


So which is it? Are all citizens of Israel (Arab and Jewish both) equal before the law or aren't they? You just admitted the law isn't applied uniformly.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 05 January 2005 09:32 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are silly. Is the law applied equally here in Caanada? Having worked in the social services as a child protection worker for many years I can tell you that I saw many times where in my judgement the law was not applied equally. When I was involved in the anti-poverty network I can tell you that there was never a doubt amongst us that the weakest in society were not equal before the law. We fight as progressive people to change this because in theory ALL are SUPPOSE to be equal before the law.

I dont necessarily expect you to undersatnd this Doc but trust me many democratic countries struggle with this.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 05 January 2005 09:34 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tell us again why Saddam had to be removed from power in Iraq?

After all, all he was guilty of was not applying the law equally and fairly.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 05 January 2005 09:37 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Right..well other than slaughtering thousands of his own people, I guess you're right.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 05 January 2005 09:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The issue of whether or not Israel treats all of its citizens equally is moot, in that it is the denial of citizenship (right of return) to those whom it rules over but does not afford citizenship, and therefore rights, which is the primary issue. It has made millions non-persons, and in the last four years Israel killed thousands of these non-persons.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 05 January 2005 09:57 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Right..well other than slaughtering thousands of his own people, I guess you're right.

So you are able to see a difference in degree between the how the "democracy" of Iraq treated its charges as compared to how the "democracy" of Israel treats its charges?

Well, that at least is a small step in the right direction ... now, do you really believe that there is no difference in degree as to how the "democracy" of Israel treats its charges as compared to how the democracy of Canada treats its charges?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 05 January 2005 10:02 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The extent of the degree is debateable
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 05 January 2005 10:45 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Great, so let's debate over how many of your charges you can kill in a delusional attempt to increase your own security and still be considered a "democracy"!

Do you have a number in mind? Is it in one of these magnitude: 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000, 1000000?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 05 January 2005 10:51 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
1 and only every Ceasar.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 January 2005 07:52 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
Great, so let's debate over how many of your charges you can kill in a delusional attempt to increase your own security and still be considered a "democracy"!

Do you have a number in mind? Is it in one of these magnitude: 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000, 1000000?


I see, I get warned for suggesting that a Babbler doesnt like Israelis. This Babbler calls me "delusional" and that's just one of the nicer names he has referred to me as.

Do warnings on such matters only apply to those of us who wish to support the people and Jewish state of Israel?


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 January 2005 08:03 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't read that "delusional" as applying to you personally, Macabee, not in that speculative construction. I took it to apply (1) to any state; and then, (2) arguably, to Israel.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 January 2005 08:32 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I don't read that "delusional" as applying to you personally, Macabee, not in that speculative construction. I took it to apply (1) to any state; and then, (2) arguably, to Israel.
Of course Skdadl. You would see it that way. When he says "your" who might he be referring to I wonder??


quote:
Great, so let's debate over how many of your charges you can kill in a delusional attempt...

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 06 January 2005 08:44 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I still don't understand why the slaughter of innocent civilians is bad when done by domestic leaders*, but good when done by a foreign occupying army. It's a very confusing notion.

*Please note - this does not apply to shiny happy places like Colombia or Guatemala. Carry on, juntas!


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 January 2005 09:09 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
I see, I get warned for suggesting that a Babbler doesnt like Israelis. This Babbler calls me "delusional" and that's just one of the nicer names he has referred to me as.

Do warnings on such matters only apply to those of us who wish to support the people and Jewish state of Israel?


Don't be ridiculous. There's a difference between calling someone "delusional" and calling them a Jew-hater. Not that calling someone delusional is stellar or anything, but I'd say it's on about the same par as:

quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
You are silly.

I didn't give warnings to either of you for "delusional" or "silly".

Grow up.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 January 2005 09:11 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I still think he was using you/your in the sense of one, as we very commonly do in colloquial English. If you go / one goes back to his prior step, that context looks pretty clear.

In spite of your ad hominem against me there, Macabee, I have a craft and financial interest in reading carefully and stating my judgements of what I read very carefully, and that's what I'm doing here.

One of my biggest gripes against you, Macabee, is that you seem either not to read other people carefully or you don't want to accept them in their own words; you prefer your own rewordings.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 06 January 2005 09:37 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Great, so let's debate over how many of your charges you can kill in a delusional attempt to increase your own security and still be considered a "democracy"!

So, let's suppose for the sake of argument that your vain sense of overblown self-importance is correct and the use of the "you" in my question does indeed refer to you (supposedly the democratic soverign nation of Macabee) and not to nations in general, or Israel / Iraq in specific.

Now, let me get this straight; you are concerned over the fact that you were called delusional, but have nothing at all to say about being refered to as someone who would kill your charges?

No need to answer that one Mac, as we all know the only reason you bothered to go so far afield to make this all about you and some imagined insult directed at your good name, is to once again derail a thread and get out of answering a question that you either don't have an answer for, or do have an answer but one that would expose you as someone who cares not for anything but your own narrow jingoistic circle of familiars.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 06 January 2005 12:22 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, and I mean this sincerely Macabee, you seem to be really off your game lately.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 06 January 2005 12:30 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Funny how Mac and Mish have the same employment history, they have so much in common!
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 January 2005 07:08 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

I didn't give warnings to either of you for "delusional" or "silly".

Grow up.


Im pretty grown up Michelle and resent your tone. It is patronizing, offensive and unecessary. A simple explanation would suffice.

BTW "silly" is one thing however to call someone "delusional" is to suggest that he/she is mentally ill. Disgusting.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 January 2005 07:10 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I still think he was using you/your in the sense of one, as we very commonly do in colloquial English. If you go / one goes back to his prior step, that context looks pretty clear.

In spite of your ad hominem against me there, Macabee, I have a craft and financial interest in reading carefully and stating my judgements of what I read very carefully, and that's what I'm doing here.

One of my biggest gripes against you, Macabee, is that you seem either not to read other people carefully or you don't want to accept them in their own words; you prefer your own rewordings.


I made no ad hominem, I only suggested a feeling. As for your reading abilities and mine, I guess we are all entitled to our opinions.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 January 2005 07:11 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
You know, and I mean this sincerely Macabee, you seem to be really off your game lately.

Too much imbibing over the holidays...

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 06 January 2005 07:12 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
Funny how Mac and Mish have the same employment history, they have so much in common!
Is this a shocking secret Scout? You have been away too long. This was dealt with months ago. Read up

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 06 January 2005 07:20 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Im pretty grown up Michelle and resent your tone. It is patronizing, offensive and unecessary. A simple explanation would suffice.

Well, it takes one to know one, so I'm not surprised you popped off with that triad of appellations to Michelle.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 06 January 2005 07:41 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
to call someone "delusional" is to suggest that he/she is mentally ill. Disgusting.

It's always so disgusting when they call you (2)delusional (1b) ... unless you (2) are delusional (2)

[ 06 January 2005: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 January 2005 07:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BTW, this attempt to diffuse the issue of the thread is just another exmaple of the irritating behviour that keeps people going on the issue. If you don't have anything substantive to offer Mac, why not shut up.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 January 2005 08:10 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
BTW, this attempt to diffuse the issue of the thread is just another exmaple of the irritating behviour that keeps people going on the issue. If you don't have anything substantive to offer Mac, why not shut up.

Damn I was thinking the same about you

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 January 2005 08:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The issue of this thread is the status of Israeli settlers on the west bank, and the conditions of Israeli Aprathed (or not) not your personal angst at being called names on a chat forum. Now discuss...
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 06 January 2005 08:33 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To repeat my previosu query to Macabee:

quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
Great, so let's debate over how many of your (3) charges you (2) can kill in a delusional (1b) attempt to increase your (3) own security and still be considered a "democracy"!

Do you (1) have a number in mind? Is it in one of these magnitude: 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000, 1000000?


[ 06 January 2005: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 06 January 2005 08:39 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
The issue of this thread is the status of Israeli settlers on the west bank, and the conditions of Israeli Aprathed (or not) not your personal angst at being called names on a chat forum. Now discuss...

Meet my new spokesperson!

(Don't throw a hissy, anyone, I'm just joking.)


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 January 2005 09:13 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Meet my new spokesperson!

(Don't throw a hissy, anyone, I'm just joking.)



My personal angst? Now that's prescious

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 January 2005 09:36 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I was more applauding the idea that we should get onto the topic of the thread and off the topic of who called who what, when. But yeah, that's a common derailing tactic, so sure, why not.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 January 2005 11:23 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Im pretty grown up Michelle and resent your tone. It is patronizing, offensive and unecessary. A simple explanation would suffice.

Don't be such a crybaby.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 January 2005 11:32 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Don't be such a crybaby.



Dont be such an ass

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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Babbler # 569

posted 06 January 2005 11:47 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
LOL! Is this still going on? Man, this is way better than televison!
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 06 January 2005 11:52 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think we should try to come up with new thread titles for this thread.

"The Further Adventures of Macabee and Cueball"

Yeah, I know, I'm just encouraging more thread drift. What the hell.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 07 January 2005 01:37 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee , I guess I missed the day you owned up to all your alter egos Macabee. Did the out right lying get too complicated? Anyone want to feed me a link to the momentus occasion?

I must have missed it because contrary to what your ego is telling you, not everyone on babble is hanging on your every word. Most of us have heard them all before.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 January 2005 02:46 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Dont be such an ass

Gee whiz Mish, maybe you ought to get that angst of yours looked at.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 07 January 2005 08:16 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From Scout to Al, I cannot tell you how thrilled I am about your concen and interest. Scout loves making false accusations about my alleged lies. Clearly against Babble policy and Al continues to worry about my mental health.

Perhaps the two of you can come together for a coffee Im sure you will both have much to talk about.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 07 January 2005 08:52 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where did Scout make a false accusation? Although, you're right, we did go through that before, and since you don't use both accounts at the same time and have "retired" the Mishei account (and the other ones), it's pretty much been winked at. So, fine, whatever. But it's not like Scout is making a false accusation. The worst she can be accused of in this thread is thread drift, but since the thread has already completely drifted because of your completely self-centred occupation with No Yards' "delusional" comment (which wasn't even directed at you), I think Scout is really the least of our concerns right now. Oh, and telling someone that they don't want to turn every discussion into their personal angst isn't telling them that their mental health is poor, but I'm sure it suits your purposes to interpret the comment that way.

I think what would be better to examine is why you always feel the need to change the subject of discussions on babble into conversations about you. Especially when completely unwarranted. The one that started this whole thing off is No Yards' use of "delusional". He was clearly speaking about Israel using the rhetorical "you" and not you personally, unless you believe that No Yards was talking about your own personal security, and calling you personally "a democracy":

quote:
Great, so let's debate over how many of your charges you (2) can kill in a delusional (1b) attempt to increase your (3) own security and still be considered a "democracy"!

Now, let's trade the "you"s for "Macabee" in that quote:

"Great, so let's debate over how many of Macabee's charges Macabee can kill in a delusional attempt to increase Macabee's own security and still be considered a 'democracy'!"

Hmm, doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? Now, let's replace all the "you"s for "Israel" and see if it makes more sense:

"Great, so let's debate over how many of Israel's charges Israel can kill in a delusional attempt to increase Israel's own security and still be considered a 'democracy'!"

Gee, now that makes a lot more sense, doesn't it? Now, you can tell me "That's just your interpretation," but if you look at the first one I did, YOUR interpretation really doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? Kind of looks like you're just looking for a way to derail the discussion, doesn't it? Especially considering that two other people - including the person who wrote the original post - explained what was meant by it to you, and you still persisted.

I think maybe you should stop turning babble discussions into self-centred, thin-skinned whining about what a martyr you are in this forum. Or, as al-Q put it, quit being such a crybaby. Or, as I put it earlier, grow up. If you can't handle the heated discussions that happen here, then find another forum to post on - I'm sure you'll find lots more of what you're policing us for on FD, for instance. Except that they probably wouldn't put up with your whining martyr act for more than a few posts before turfing your ass. Be glad your little routine has been tolerated here for so long.

In closing, I really wish everyone would stop the name-calling and nastiness, but this forum and the passion the subject inspires just seems to breed it. So unless you want to see my posts every other post, policing tone and giving warnings every time someone says "you are silly" or "that's delusional" or says that someone's post is full of "angst", which would disrupt the flow of conversation here even more than the off-topic meanderings that are already prevalent here, then QUIT WHINING about little things, and moderate your OWN behaviour (not other people's).


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 07 January 2005 01:14 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or we can carry on and if you dont like what I say (or anyone else for that matter) just ignore it.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 07 January 2005 02:57 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hate to derail your derailing by trying to move the conversation to something other than your (2) own personal obsession with how other view you (1) and your (2) alter ego, but:

quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
Great, so let's debate over how many of your (3) charges you (2) can kill in a delusional (1b) attempt to increase your (3) own security and still be considered a "democracy"!

Do you (1) have a number in mind? Is it in one of these magnitude: 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000, 1000000?



From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 January 2005 05:34 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
January 7, 1785

Across the English Channel in a balloon

Frenchman Jean-Pierre Blanchard and American John Jeffries travel from Dover, England, to Calais, France, in a gas balloon, becoming the first to cross the English Channel by air. The two men nearly crashed into the Channel along the way, however, as their balloon was weighed down by extraneous supplies such as anchors, a nonfunctional hand-operated propeller, and silk-covered oars with which they hoped they could row their way through the air. Just before reaching the French coast, the two balloonists were forced to throw nearly everything out of the balloon, and Blanchard even threw his trousers over the side in a desperate, but apparently successful, attempt to lighten the ship.

[ 08 January 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 07 January 2005 05:46 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right, knock it off. We already got the point.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 08 January 2005 12:22 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Very interesting web link to some charts


The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability.

Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

It is the goal of If Americans Knew to provide full and accurate information on this critical issue, and on our power – and duty – to bring a resolution.


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 08 January 2005 08:00 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Am I missing something or is the above link solely dealing with trying to demonize Israel?

Surely there must be other matters affecting America? That Israel is this site's only focus should tell us much.

[ 08 January 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 08 January 2005 12:08 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It focuses on Palestine as well ... the fact you can't even relate to the area in any terms other than on Israeli terms also tells us much.
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 08 January 2005 01:09 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What is the point of that retort unless you are trying to demonize Israel vicariously through macabee. You demonizer, you.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 08 January 2005 01:57 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Am I missing something or is the above link solely dealing with trying to demonize Israel?

Am I missing something or has presenting verifiable facts with sources to back them up become equated with "demonizing". This is the Karl Rove school of discourse. Anything which disagrees with my opinion must be bias.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 08 January 2005 03:29 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
What is the point of that retort unless you are trying to demonize Israel vicariously through macabee. You demonizer, you.

There is no such thing as Israel. It's just a fable made up by Macabee which he uses to draw abuse for his own personal masochistic pleasures.

Not that there's anything wrong with masochism mind you!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 09 January 2005 12:51 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, the USA is the country arming Israel, it is the country that whas made itself the supposed peacemaker with the infamous roadmap to peace.

What is Israel is doing with USian tax dollars should be of interest to the USians themselves.

The link is showing what in actual fact is happening in Israel and Palestine, and what Israel is doing with their sponsorship money, why do you have a problem with that?

quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Am I missing something or is the above link solely dealing with trying to demonize Israel?

Surely there must be other matters affecting America? That Israel is this site's only focus should tell us much.

[ 08 January 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]



From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 09 January 2005 05:30 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

If that existed I would admit it. However having lived in Israel and knowing a bit about it all citizens of Israel are equal before the law.


But some are more equal than others and the Israeli Arabs are the "least equal" of all.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged

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