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Author Topic: Woman to Be Buried Up to Chest and Stoned to Death
WingNut
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posted 19 December 2004 02:09 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Urgent:

quote:
An Iranian woman charged with adultery faces death by stoning in the next five days after her death sentence was upheld by the Supreme Court last month. Her unnamed co-defendant is at risk of imminent execution by hanging. Amnesty International members are now writing urgent appeals to the Iranian authorities, calling for the execution to be stopped.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/15825.shtml

Iranian Embassy: ambassador@iranembassy.org
Bill Graham: Graham.B@parl.gc.ca


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 19 December 2004 03:42 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Thanx Wingy... I'm gonna send that off to everyone in my address book, too...

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


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Phonicidal
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posted 19 December 2004 04:02 AM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/15825.shtml
Even more disturbing (from the same release):
quote:
The news follows reports of a 19-year old girl, "Leyla M", who has a mental age of eight, reportedly facing imminent execution for "morality-related" offences in Iran after being forced into prostitution by her mother as a child.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: Phonicidal ]


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kittielungs
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posted 19 December 2004 09:51 AM      Profile for Kittielungs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What a disgrace. I don't understand this at all.
Can someone explain the reason behind this to me?

From: Middle window, third little minnow on the left | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 19 December 2004 10:28 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Religious fundamentalism.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 19 December 2004 10:32 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the warning, Wingy. Writing today.
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Briguy
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posted 20 December 2004 10:35 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ditto. Thanks, Wingy.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 20 December 2004 11:06 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thankfully on some issues we can agree. I too will be doing whatever I can to bring this to peoples attention.
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Stockholm
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posted 20 December 2004 07:07 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why does it seem like in some parts of the world, people seem to be so comfortable with gory uses of the death penalty. Its like taking a step back to 17th century England with people being drawn and quartered in public.

Do people in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia ever discuss whether maybe, just maybe, killing is wrong and that it is just plain wrong to execute people under any circumstances, no matter what the method.

Is there any strain of Muslim theology that argues that human life is sacred and that it is a sin to ever kill?


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Jingles
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posted 20 December 2004 08:15 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is there any strain of Muslim theology that argues that human life is sacred and that it is a sin to ever kill?

No. It's all about killing.

Maybe we shoud invade their countries, kill their leaders and force them to convert to Christianity, the religion of peace. After all, Christians never do things like execute the mentally retarded, or perform an public execution as an expression of societal revenge, or illegally invade a defenseless country using environmentally persistent poisons on civilian populations because the Christian leader is acting as God's agent on earth.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 20 December 2004 08:57 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In case anybody is wondering just how brutal one of these stonings can be, you might want to see this. The video quality isn't great. But, I'm sure you could get a copy from Irshad if you ask nicely.
From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 December 2004 09:00 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why would we want to watch a snuff film?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 20 December 2004 09:07 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Why would we want to watch a snuff film?
It's not a snuff film. I think that is footage from an interview. And, it is evidence of exactly how horrible the act that we are all talking about can be. The footage may be more shocking to some than others. That's why I gave fair warning.

Also, on the odd chance that there are people out there who think that this thread is only about spreading anti-Islamic or anti-Iranian propaganda, I linked to it to demonstrate that such things actually DO happen as prescribed in some applications of Islamic law.


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 December 2004 09:16 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Why does it seem like in some parts of the world, people seem to be so comfortable with gory uses of the death penalty. Its like taking a step back to 17th century England with people being drawn and quartered in public.

I've given this some thought myself, Stockholm, and while obviously I don't approve of the barbarity of torturous methods of killing, like stoning to death, it's not the public display that I find so distasteful.

If anything, the public display of state-sanctioned murder seems to me to be more "honest". What is the difference, pain-wise, between putting the bullet in the head of a person in an Afghani stadium, and frying them in an electric chair in a closed chamber in a US prison (except, perhaps, that the person who gets the bullet to the head is likely to die faster)?

Obviously stoning is torturous, barbaric, and horrific. But when it comes to execution of any kind, I firmly believe that if the people in a country want to practise it, they should have to take part by at least watching it.

In other words, if you're some asshole redneck republifart in Texas (or, say, posting on Little Green Footballs ), then you should have to be present for executions done in your name. You should have to watch every single murdered person's last breath and gurgle. It's real easy to be all for state-sanctioned murder when it's all sanitized and you don't have to watch it.

quote:
Do people in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia ever discuss whether maybe, just maybe, killing is wrong and that it is just plain wrong to execute people under any circumstances, no matter what the method.

Yes, all the time. Have you ever MET a person from Iran or Saudi Arabia? If you've known anyone from those countries, you'd already know the answer to your question.

quote:
Is there any strain of Muslim theology that argues that human life is sacred and that it is a sin to ever kill?

Probably not, although I'm not sure. Not that Christianity or Judaism is all that great on that score either. It would kind of contradict all the killing-because-your-god-isn't-our-God in the Old Testament/Torah, wouldn't it?

[ 20 December 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 December 2004 09:20 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Phonicidal:
It's not a snuff film. I think that is footage from an interview. And, it is evidence of exactly how horrible the act that we are all talking about can be. The footage may be more shocking to some than others. That's why I gave fair warning.

Actually, you're probably right. I know that a dissident Iranian group (who are actually kind of nuts themselves) for ages had footage of a stoning on their web site in order to show people just how terrible it is, and how terrible the regime is in that country.

Oh, okay, I just clicked on that link, Phonicidal, and that's the exactly footage that I was talking about just above.

[ 20 December 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 20 December 2004 09:27 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Not that Christianity or Judaism is all that great on that score either. It would kind of contradict all the killing-because-your-god-isn't-our-God in the Old Testament/Torah, wouldn't it?
Can you come up with some quotes? I wasn't aware of any passage in the Torah that sanctions the killing of those who do not believe in God. There may be instances of it happening. But, that's not the same as advocacy.

Anyway, the question isn't so much about what is in the Bible or Koran, but it's about what the followers of those books (or smaller groups within that religion) choose to focus thier attention on. As Irshad Manji argues, there certainly are literalist traditions and sects in Judaism and Christianity, but only in Islam is literalism mainstream. That's the thesis of her book, "The Trouble With Islam".

Edited to avoid redundancy with Michelle's post above

[ 20 December 2004: Message edited by: Phonicidal ]


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 December 2004 10:16 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Examples from the first five books of the Old Testament/Torah of killing people because of their religion? Gosh, where do I start?

quote:
Exodus 33:1-2

The the Lord said to Moses, "Depart and go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, asying, 'To your descendants I will give it.' And I will send my Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite."


Numbers 25 and 31 is also quite a pleasant little story. If you read Numbers 25, the Midianites invited Israel to partake of sacrifices to their gods, and lots of people in the tribe of Israel did so. So, after God told Moses to kill every Israelite who did so, this is what he had to say about the gracious Midianites who extended the invitation:

quote:
25:16-18
Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: "Harass the Midianites, and attack them; for they harassed you with their schemes by which they seduced you in the matter of Peor and in the matter of Cozbi, the daughter of a leader of Midian, their sister, who was killed in the day of the plague because of Peor.

31:1-2
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the children of Israel. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people."

31:8-11
They killed the kings of Midian with the rest of those who were killed - Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian. Balaam the son of Beor they also killed with the sword. And the children of Israel took the women of Midian captive, with their little ones, and took as spoil all their cattle, all their flocks, and all their goods. They also burned with fire all the cities where they dwelt, and all their forts. And they took all the spoil and all the booty - of man and beast.


But when they brought the women and children and the spoils to Moses, what was his reaction?

quote:
31:14-18
But Moses was angry with the officers of the army, with the captains over thousands and captains over hundreds, who had come from the battle. And Moses said to them: "Have you kept all the women alive? Look, these women caused the children of Isarel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the Lord in the incident of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately."

Gee, that sounds like such an enlightened attitude towards killing!

This little story is heartwarming too:

quote:
Numbers 33:50-53
Now the Lord spoke to Moses in the plains of Moab by the Jordan, across from Jericho, saying, "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'When you have crossed the Jordan into the land of Canaan, then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, destroy all their engraved stones, destroy all their molded images, and demolish all their high places; you shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land and dwell in it, for I have given you the land to possess."

Supposedly, a loving God told them to go into the land, kill everyone in it, and live there, for no reason other than that God promised it to them instead of the people living there, who worshiped other gods.

And this sort of story is the foundation of Judeo-Christian religions. Not the most peaceful or enlightened views on killing, or on living peacefully side-by-side with people of other religions if you ask me.

[ 20 December 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 20 December 2004 11:40 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As much as I hate to give credit to anything religious because as an athetist I have contempt for all organized religions - I will credit Christianity and Judaism with one thing. Whatever texts like the Bible may say, in practice most Catholic and mainstream Protestant and Jewish sects have ethics that try to raise the bar in terms of not killing people as opposed lowering it. I give the Pop[e credit, he opposes the death penalty, he opposed the Iraq War, he has been quite pacifist when it comes to war in general. Even on the abortion issue, I give them credit - they consider a fetus to be human life and they oppose taking a life under any circumstances. I happen to disagree but I think that the motive for their view is not a bad one.

Similarly Jains in India are so obsessed with not taking a life that they sweep the sidewalk in front of them so that they don't kill a bug! Many Protestant sects like Mennonites, Quakers etc... are peace churches whose members have gone to jail rather than fight in a war.

Why is there seemingly nothing in Islam that is comparable? In fact, it is mainstream Islamic theology that any Muslim who is guilty of "apostasy" (ie: converts to another religion) should be killed and we hear of fatwas against Salman Rushdie etc... and religion laws calling for stonings, public executions etc...

Is there nothing in Islam that is comparable to the Quakers that put peace and the preservation of human life above all else or is it all consistent brutality and sadism?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 December 2004 11:45 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not sure about this, but isn't don't the Ismailis meet that criteria?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 21 December 2004 12:19 AM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Examples from the first five books of the Old Testament/Torah of killing people because of their religion? Gosh, where do I start?

Exodus 33:1-2
...And I will send my Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite."


The "I" in that sentence is God. God doesn't command the Israelites to drive anybody out. God says that he'll do it. In any case, even if God had commanded the Israelites to kill the inhabitants of the land, that couldn't be taken as advocating killing today. NEXT...

quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
25:16-18
Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: "Harass the Midianites, and attack them; for they harassed you with their schemes by which they seduced you in the matter of Peor and in the matter of Cozbi


Not for religious reasons. It was because of "their schemes." The other two passages from Numbers describe specific events, not standing commandments that apply to today. NEXT...
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Numbers 33:50-53
Now the Lord spoke to Moses in the plains of Moab by the Jordan, across from Jericho, saying, "drive out...destroy all their engraved stones, destroy all their molded images, and demolish all their high places; you shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land and dwell in it, for I have given you the land to possess."

Again, doesn't command people today to do anything like that. And, does not specifically command any killing.
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Supposedly, a loving God....
Yeah, well, Jews don't generally believe that God is "loving." The scholar Maimonides, who lived in the Arab world and wrote much of his work in Arabic, described terms like "loving" as limiting God to human standards. So, he described God with terms like "not unloving" or "not unmerciful." It sounds symantic, but the two philosophies are very different.

quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
And this sort of story is the foundation of Judeo-Christian religions. Not the most peaceful or enlightened views on killing, or on living peacefully side-by-side with people of other religions if you ask me.
Michelle, I am not saying that your arguments about the Torah are anti-Semitic. But, they are the same kind of arguments used by Christians in the dark ages to justify their anti-Semitism. Because, afterall "the Jews follow a vengefull, violent God, and WTF! They killed Jesus! Get 'em!"

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
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posted 21 December 2004 12:22 AM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
Ya, a heavy cross to bear, phonicidal.
From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 21 December 2004 12:27 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stockholm, thank you for making some not vehemently anti-religious comments, a true breath of fresh air.

I sent out e-mails to the embassy and Mr. Graham denouncing these actions. Asking for them to stop, etc.

Michelle, last I checked the Communists did similar things to theists within their enlightened Russian empire. All because Koba had a bad day with mommy...


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 21 December 2004 12:27 AM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I'm not sure about this, but isn't don't the Ismailis meet that criteria?
Sort of. But, Ismailis are certainly not mainstream Muslims. In fact, amongst many Arab communities, Ismailis are seen in much the same way as Jews see "Jews for Jesus." That is, they are not considered as Muslims (for the record: that is not my opinion). Stockholm seems to be demonstrating the point that I made earlier (the one I borrowed from Irshad Manji), that in Christianity and Judaism moderation is mainstream and literalism is marginalized. while in Islam that does not appear to be the case.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 21 December 2004 12:32 AM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frac Tal:
Ya, a heavy cross to bear, phonicidal.
If that's a joke (and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it is) maybe not everybody gets it and could use a bit of an explanation.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
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posted 21 December 2004 12:37 AM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
It was used by another poster ( no yards ) in another thread.

It was sarcasm, on my part.


From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 21 December 2004 12:40 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Michelle, I am not saying that your arguments about the Torah are anti-Semitic. But, they are the same kind of arguments used by Christians in the dark ages to justify their anti-Semitism. Because, afterall "the Jews follow a vengefull, violent God, and WTF! They killed Jesus! Get 'em!"

First you ask her to quote the Torah and then when she does you accuse her of antisemitism? You really are a dumb fuck. I'm sorry, but you are.

There is Stockholm, outwardly accusing Muslims of being different from all other religions in being so violent. Does he forget the witches of Salem. One of my ancestors was boiled in oil for not renouncing his religion.

Jews have never been sent out to "smite" their enemy? Is what they are doing in the West Bank and Gaza not in the name of Judaism? Haven't I read about orthodox Jews in Israel stoning people driving on the sabbath?

Every religion has fundamentalists who push the limits if our understanding and reach barbarity. Every one. What makes Islam in the mid-east different, is that in our efforts to steal their oil while ensuring they derive no economic benefit we have destroyed their democracies, undermined their nationalism, and left them with fundamentalist preachers.

And then you insult them with ignorance and racism.

At least Macabee can see this is a human rights issue and I credit him for that.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
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posted 21 December 2004 01:00 AM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
"Our" efforts to steal their oil?

"They" sell their oil on the world market, you tiresome git.

Of course it's all "Our" fault. Skdadl will back you up. After all, she ain't one of "Ours".

Get over it. It's not all about you, or skdadl.

All the car bombs in Karbala ain't gonna make a hero outta you, wingnut.


From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 21 December 2004 01:07 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is Stockholm, outwardly accusing Muslims of being different from all other religions in being so violent. Does he forget the witches of Salem. One of my ancestors was boiled in oil for not renouncing his religion.

Jews have never been sent out to "smite" their enemy? Is what they are doing in the West Bank and Gaza not in the name of Judaism? Haven't I read about orthodox Jews in Israel stoning people driving on the sabbath?


The difference is that the Salem witchcraft trials happened almost 400 years ago and is regarded as an embarrassing event. I don't think you could find 1 in a million Christians in the western world today who would favour resurrect witchcraft trials. Those Orthodox Jews who stone people fro driving on Saturdays are regarded as a tiny minority of freaks in Israel - as are the settlers in the occupied territories.

It seems that in Islam, the mainstream view is that there are a whole slew of reason why it is justifiable to kill and preferabley while inflicting as much pain and humiliation as possible(Ie: belonging to another religion, accusations of "blasphemy", homosexuality, being woman who was raped etc...). I ask again, why is there no Muslim equivalent of the Quakers who totally renounce all violence and any use of the death penalty? If it really is all as a response to the west trying tom take their oil - why don't they rebel in a constructive and and be Communists?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 21 December 2004 01:11 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stockholm, there is, unfortunately they are lapidated for their ideas just as this poor woman was for what happened to her.
From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
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posted 21 December 2004 01:12 AM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
One Religion. One God. Allah Akbar!
From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 21 December 2004 01:14 AM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
First you ask her to quote the Torah and then when she does you accuse her of antisemitism?
I specifically said:
quote:
Can you come up with some quotes? I wasn't aware of any passage in the Torah that sanctions the killing of those who do not believe in God.
Perhaps you misunderstood. I was asking her to back up her claim that instances in the Bible in which killing for God is advocated apply to today. That's why I threw in:
quote:
There may be instances of it happening. But, that's not the same as advocacy.

quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
You really are a dumb fuck. I'm sorry, but you are.
Um, is there a moderator around here? Oh, riiiight...I guess this is where I'm supposed to cry somebody a river while the moderator ignores violations of babble policy.

quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
There is Stockholm, outwardly accusing Muslims of being different from all other religions in being so violent. Does he forget the witches of Salem. One of my ancestors was boiled in oil for not renouncing his religion.
You're talking History. Stockholm is talking about the present and looking towards the future. BTW, I've been to Salem. The pirate museum sucked ass, but I liked the rest of it (including the play about the witch trials).

quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Jews have never been sent out to "smite" their enemy?
Jews smote lots of enemies. But, I haven't seen any evidence that Jews today are specifically commanded to do so.

quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Is what they are doing in the West Bank and Gaza not in the name of Judaism?
They might say that they are doing it in the name of Judaism. That's their interpretation, or misinterpretation as the case may be. But, I don't see where they are commanded to kill people who are not Jews because they are not Jews. And, God may have commanded the Israelites in the time of the Torah to smite "tribe x", but that doesn't give anybody license to kill "people y", who may or may not be the decendants of "tribe x", today.

quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Haven't I read about orthodox Jews in Israel stoning people driving on the sabbath?
Yup. And, it's wrong. I don't mean the reports are wrong. I mean that it's wrong that they do it. I would even argue that it is religiously wrong. The violation of the Sabbath is between an individual and God. It's not up to the Haredim to punish people for it.

And, you're missing the whole point here. The Haredim, Jewish literalists, are not mainstream, even in Israel. The argument that we are repeating is that in Islam, literalism appears to be mainstream.

quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Every religion has fundamentalists...What makes Islam in the mid-east different, is that in our efforts to steal their oil...we have destroyed their democracies, undermined their nationalism, and left them with fundamentalist preachers.
WRONG! Fundamentalism existed in the Arab world long before oil was discovered there. Anti-semitism existed in the Muslim world before Israel existed. And, your argument, again, amounts to a very disturbing version of "the Jews are responsible for anti-Semitism." I don't buy that bullshit. Anti-Semites are responsible for anti-Semitism. And, the Arab world can't keep using Israel as an excuse to continue age-old tribal hatred.

quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
At least Macabee can see this is a human rights issue and I credit him for that.
I see it as a human rights issue too. But, if you want to fix the problem, there are two ways to do it.

1) You need to fix the way that Islam is practiced in countries that do this kind of stoning, believing that it is prescribed by Islamic law. An internal reformation would need to take place which focuses on the peaceful traditions of Islam and shys away from the more brutal parts. Jews did it. Christians did it. And, I expect Muslims will too. I just hope it's soon.

2) politics in countries that practice such forms of execution need to change enough so that the subjugation of women is not accepted. Afterall, these types of executions can only be done in an environment in which woman are devalued. How else can you explain how a mentally deficient girl, forced into prostitution by her mother, could be guilty of a crime worthy of being executed? Where woman are treated as property and "family honour" excuses all sorts of tragic behaviour, I definitely see room for change.


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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Babbler # 7635

posted 21 December 2004 01:17 AM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My appologies for the long post. But, it often takes longer to refute bullshit, and explan why it's souch bullshit, than it does to spew it.
From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 21 December 2004 01:25 AM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know you're trying to paint Islam as a religion of fanatical mass-murderers, but you're missing the big point: any religion will have its whack jobs who think God commands them to kill the unbeliever. Unfortunately, one of those currently occupy the White House. That avowed born-again Christian believes he is the vessel of God, carrying out His work of smiting the savage followers of the child-molester Mohamm'd in the name of Jesus Christ. He is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and for the future deaths of hundreds of thousands more. But Jesus is his favorite philosopher. That isn't 400 years ago, that is right now.
quote:
If it really is all as a response to the west trying tom take their oil - why don't they rebel in a constructive and and be Communists?

There it is again. A people faced with violent attack from a technologically superior enemy are told "how dare you strike back!". When attacked by the most violent society in history, they are told to stop being violent in response because it isn't very nice.

One day, there will be a pill that disables that primitive, stunted and useless part of the brain responsible for idiotic belief in religion. Then there will be peace.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
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posted 21 December 2004 01:28 AM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
Yopu're just asking to be banned, Phonicidal. Skdadl is on your case.
From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6796

posted 21 December 2004 01:36 AM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
What Jingles, You just slip it in there that Mohammed is a child molester?

Yeah, I know, you're anti religious. That gives you license. Don't forget that industry you collect a paycheck from is raping the earth and destroying the future. Oh, wait, that's another argument...

Anyways, Whaddya think of that Yukos oil deal?

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: Frac Tal ]


From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 21 December 2004 01:36 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There it is again. A people faced with violent attack from a technologically superior enemy are told "how dare you strike back!". When attacked by the most violent society in history, they are told to stop being violent in response because it isn't very nice.


I didn't say that. I said that if they must strike back, why can't they do it in the name of something copnstructive like a socialist revolution, instead of offering people a choice between American domination and a return to the 13th century.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 December 2004 01:46 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Phonicidal:
Michelle, I am not saying that your arguments about the Torah are anti-Semitic. But, they are the same kind of arguments used by Christians in the dark ages to justify their anti-Semitism. Because, afterall "the Jews follow a vengefull, violent God, and WTF! They killed Jesus! Get 'em!"

Ha! I should have known you'd turn this into an anti-semitism smear. And I like the whole, "I'm not saying what you said is anti-semitic, I'm just saying that other anti-semites used to say the same thing." Cute.

Listen, in another thread, you talked about how there is anti-semitic and violent stuff in the Koran. And in this thread, Stockholm was talking about Islam as though it was the only religion around that had violent or intolerant teachings. And it's bullshit.

I realize that it was God supposedly speaking in those passages. I didn't make mention in my original post whether it was God or not. All I said was that in the Old Testament, which I chose because Jews AND CHRISTIANS share that scripture, there were all sorts of unjust killings, many based on differing religious beliefs. Unless, of course, you consider killing people in order to steal their land, or killing people because they are of a different religion to be "just". And I don't care whether the book says God did it or whatever. That's really beside the point.

And I didn't say that the scriptures advocated killing TODAY. I just said that there are stories in the Old Testament where unjust killings (whether by God or not) are carried out and portrayed as a good thing which means that our scriptures (I say OURS because I come from the Judeo-Christian tradition as well) can be just as unjust and bloodthirsty as ones in the Koran.

And all along, I was talking about how these stories are the foundation of Judaism AND Christianity, so you can take your "I'm not saying your argument is anti-semitic, but your argument really is anti-semitic" bullshit and shove it hard.

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 21 December 2004 01:56 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
P.S. I don't like it that WingNut called you a "dumb fuck". But considering that you pretty much called me an anti-semite, I don't give two dumb fucks. So yeah, cry me a river all right. Or better yet, why don't you go and cry to your racist anti-Muslim friends in that thread from Little Green Footballs that Briguy dug up?

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 21 December 2004 02:23 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
why can't they do it in the name of something copnstructive like a socialist revolution...

Considering that they whupped Soviet butt in Afghanistan, one would hardly think they'd embrace that particular slant.

Consider again that many of the outspoken leftists who lived under US client monarchies and dictatorships in the Arab world have been snuffed already, thanks in part to the efforts of CIA spooks who provided them with handy want lists of Commies to be bumped off.

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 21 December 2004 04:20 AM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I should have known you'd turn this into an anti-semitism smear.
No, not a smear. It's kinda like Einstein and the nuclear bomb. I am just asking you to be sensitive to how your words, genuinely written in good faith, can be used by others for nefarious purposes. I'm not asking you to withold your two cents. But, considering that there is a lot of bad faith floating around, I think it's fair to ask you to consider the way you put things and their possible effect.

quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Listen, in another thread, you talked about how there is anti-semitic and violent stuff in the Koran. And in this thread, Stockholm was talking about Islam as though it was the only religion around that had violent or intolerant teachings. And it's bullshit.
I agree. Religious extremism is bad. The antidote is religious moderation. Although, some think that religious elimination (holy shit! Get it? Religious elimination=holy sh...never mind ) is the solution.

quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I realize that it was God supposedly speaking in those passages....Unless, of course, you consider killing people in order to steal their land, or killing people because they are of a different religion to be "just". And I don't care whether the book says God did it or whatever. That's really beside the point.
No, it's not really beside the point. We're talking about what religious people believe. From a religious perspective, it IS important if God said something or not. Who said it is important when it comes to what is and what is not considered a commandment, a religious imperative.

quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
And I didn't say that the scriptures advocated killing TODAY. I just said that there are stories in the Old Testament where unjust killings (whether by God or not) are carried out and portrayed as a good thing which means that our scriptures (I say OURS because I come from the Judeo-Christian tradition as well) can be just as unjust and bloodthirsty as ones in the Koran.
There are a couple of parts to that point. First, I agree that all of the religious books we've mentioned contain nasty bits. But, when we're talking about strict adherance to biblcal law, the examples you gave don't really fit because I don't think that they translate into any of the 613 commandments contained in the Torah. That means that they may be important to teaching some sort of lesson. But, they do not require religious people to act one way or another.

Your argument is kinda funny in a way. I suspected that you probably learned the "Old Testament" in a Christian context because it's the same kind of logic that some fundie Christians use to emphasize the superiority of the "New Testament": "It happened in the Torah, so it must advocated. Fire and Brimstone, the vengeful God of the Hebrews..." But, of course, as you've pointed out, lots of bad things happen in the Bible. And, maybe we are supposed to learn not to follow the bad examples, even if they are presented with seemingly positive consequences. To everything there is a season...(Biblical, but not Torah)


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 21 December 2004 04:21 AM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frac Tal:
Yopu're just asking to be banned, Phonicidal. Skdadl is on your case.
Yeah, I know. But, I am relying on the sense of fairness of the moderators. You've been here longer. Am I being an idiot for doing so?

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6796

posted 21 December 2004 04:23 AM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
Hey, somebody can push the button.
From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7635

posted 21 December 2004 04:36 AM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
P.S. I don't like it that WingNut called you a "dumb fuck". But considering that you pretty much called me an anti-semite, I don't give two dumb fucks. So yeah, cry me a river all right. Or better yet, why don't you go and cry to your racist anti-Muslim friends in that thread from Little Green Footballs that Briguy dug up?
[RIVER][CRYING]I don't want to push it. So, maybe you should respond privately...

I don't take any more responsibility for all of the content of LGF any more than I do the content of rabble. Both sites have something to offer me. My actual beliefs lie somewhere in between the two. So, I can only account for the stuff that I've actually written. And, I don't even read most of the comments most of the time. But, yes, there sometimes are racist comments about Muslims. Not by me. But, they are sometimes there. Of course, there are probably also comments that you would call racist and I would not. But, I don't think we need to get into that.

If I've been such a racist (and I don't think I have been) why am I not banned? I'm not daring you to do so. I'm just trying to understand things from your perspective. Maybe there's something that I haven't thought of and you can teach me something about myself.

On the other hand, if it just makes you feel better to call me a racist and to berate me, fine. Who am I to deny you pleasure? As long as you don't ban me without a good reason, I'm fine with our love/hate relationship the way it is. But, the way you feel about me should not prejudice your treatment of other babblers, like WingNut. Nothing excuses his conduct.[/CRYING][RIVER]


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6796

posted 21 December 2004 04:45 AM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
You're days are numbered.
From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 December 2004 08:44 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frac Tal:
You're days are numbered.

Do you have anything of value to contribute to the conversation? If not, then maybe you can take your inane ramblings to FD or something.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 December 2004 08:48 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
P.S. I didn't call you a racist. I said that the people you obviously get along with, and invited to contact you on that LGF thread are. And who said anything about my banning you, which I can't do anyhow? Well, besides Frac Tal, that is, but he just seems to have the keyboard farts right now. I'm sure he'll recover.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 21 December 2004 09:18 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And, your argument, again, amounts to a very disturbing version of "the Jews are responsible for anti-Semitism." I don't buy that bullshit. Anti-Semites are responsible for anti-Semitism. And, the Arab world can't keep using Israel as an excuse to continue age-old tribal hatred.

There it is again, the appeal to racism from our racist, dishonest friend. What did I say? Oh, yes, here it is:
quote:
is that in our efforts to steal their oil...we have destroyed their democracies, undermined their nationalism, and left them with fundamentalist preachers
I used the words "our" and "we", as in western society, and my dishonest, racist friend tries to twist it in to something else.

And look at the breadth of his racism. Yes, all those things existed before in Islam as they existed before and still exist in every religion and every culture. In our culture, in the name of the Christian God, we have massacred 100,000 Iraqis just to steal their oil. How barbaric is that?

In the name of Judaism, 3 million Palestinians live in a state of constant war, oppression and fear. That is civilized?

But, wait, our racist, dishonest friend will tell you that while these things may be done in the name of Christianity and Judaism, they do not necessarily reflect the core beliefs of those two religions. But his racism and dishonesty will not allow him to afford the same concession to Islam.

Edited and added:
Oh, and before I forget, what was the predominant religion of the people who attempted to wipe Judaism from the face of the earth? It was the same religion of those who now embrace Israel to hasten the second comomg so all non-converted Jews can be cast into the fires of hell, right? I am right on that, aren't I?

Yeah, that's the epitome of social and cultural evolution.

Now how can we twist all that into something antisemitic?

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 21 December 2004 09:45 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More modern violence, in regions dominated by Judeo-Christian religion? No problemo:

Bosnia, where Christians were driving out Muslims.
Cote D'Ivoire, once again with Christians murdering Muslims.
Northern Ireland.

Modern Christianity is not a panacea for senseless violence, any more than Islam is a cause of it.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 21 December 2004 10:10 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An attempt to bring this back on track:

UN chides Iran over human rights

*warning* graphic picture on linked page

quote:
Meanwhile, Amnesty International says it fears an Iranian woman convicted of adultery may be buried up to her chest and stoned to death on Tuesday.

The human rights group has urged the Iranian authorities to grant a last-minute reprieve to the woman, Hajieh Esmailvand.

'Serious concern'

The UN resolution condemning Iran was sponsored by Canada - whose relations with Iran have suffered since Canadian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi died in Iranian custody in June 2003.


The article is worth a read.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 21 December 2004 12:22 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And look at the breadth of his racism. Yes, all those things existed before in Islam as they existed before and still exist in every religion and every culture. In our culture, in the name of the Christian God, we have massacred 100,000 Iraqis just to steal their oil. How barbaric is that?

In the name of Judaism, 3 million Palestinians live in a state of constant war, oppression and fear. That is civilized?


You are comparing apples and oranges. The United States is a country with a Christian majority, but the war in Iraq is not a religious crusade that was ordered by the Pope along with the leader of the Methodist Church. It is about one country invading another for political/economic reasons. I don't see Protestant religious courts in the US sentencing people to death for their personal beliefs and behaviour.

Israel is a country that has its own military and economic and political reasons for doing what it does in the occupied territories. There is no chief rabbi in Israel that issues some Jewish version of a fatwa sentencing all non-Jews to death! Rabbis don't issue death sentences. Israel doesn't even have the death penalty (they passed a special one time only law for Adolf Eichmann)

We are talking here about Muslim countries that are ruled by religious law, where imams and ayatollahs wantonly pass death sentences on people in the name of God (typically using the most painful, sadistic and humiliating methods imaginable) and in almost every case for matters of personal morality (ie: being gay, having sex, wantong to convert to another religion)


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6796

posted 21 December 2004 12:28 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Now how can we twist all that into something antisemitic?

You are doing a fine job on you own, Wingnut.

You think you can use history to smear Christians, and take out the Jews at the same time. The Jews aren't going anywhere, not for Hamas, or Hezbollah, or their apologists in the west who want to see Israel destroyed, in the name of some misbegotten jihad.

The Jews have fought for and reclaimed their ancient homeland. All your sneering hatred from that "occupied" and "stolen" land in Toronto isn't going to change that. You and your suicide bombing accomplices aren't going to change that.

Arafat is dead. A new Palestinian state will be born, to live alongside Israel, in peace and prosperity. And your vile hatred, wingnut, will be buried in the ashes of history.

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: Frac Tal ]


From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 December 2004 12:37 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frac Tal:
You and your suicide bombing accomplices

Hi Frac Tal! You just earned yourself a formal warning. The next time you write something like this, I bring it to Audra's attention so she can decide whether or not to ban you.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 21 December 2004 12:38 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You are comparing apples and oranges. The United States is a country with a Christian majority, but the war in Iraq is not a religious crusade that was ordered by the Pope along with the leader of the Methodist Church.

Earthly religous leaders? It was ordered by God Himself! Gorge-Us George says so. And the christian fanatics say he was divinely appointed to lead them in this Holy War.

quote:
Israel is a country that has its own military and economic and political reasons for doing what it does in the occupied territories
Absolutley. And for many it is Eretz Israel, isn't it? Taking back the lands promised by God? Isn't that what they are doing? And for many more it is to "protect" the "Jewish character" of Israel isn't it?

quote:
We are talking here about Muslim countries that are ruled by religious law, where imams and ayatollahs wantonly pass death sentences on people in the name of God
Yes, again. A country that elected the first modern democratic government in the region, to be overthrown by the US and replaced by a brutal thug who committed the most vile and cruel violence against his own people only to be overthrown by the only institution the US couldn't corrupt. And why, Stocky, my social democratic friend? So you can have cheap consumer items for Christmas or be denounced by your ally in War, Bill O'Reilly, for not being Christian enough in North America.

Frac Tal, you're an idiot.

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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Babbler # 7050

posted 21 December 2004 01:03 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dear me to Heaven, you seem to forget that Jewish people had no where to go after WWII. America, Canada, our moral Christian leadership didn't want them. They didn't want to stay in Europe after seeing old roots remerge with so much strength...And Koba and his thugs weren't going to be welcoming with their Jewish populations. They really had no where to go. Besides, their other potential homeland (Guyana) had indigenous people, and if they displaced them...The same thing would come up again. Israel in all ways has to exist, but we as a world have gone about it bringing it into this world wrongly. Hence the violence...

As for religious leaders saying so...the Pope, Dalai Lama and many other religious leaders denounced this war. Just as an impersonal side-note.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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Babbler # 2116

posted 21 December 2004 01:06 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't see Protestant religious courts in the US sentencing people to death for their personal beliefs and behaviour.

Then you simply haven't been paying attention. You seem to feel a measure of smug satisfation because American Judges aren't necessarily clerics. You shouldn't. The Judeo-Christian God is right there in the first sentence of the Declaration of Independance, and in virtually every document that government has issued since then.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 December 2004 01:07 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Also, can we all tone down the name-calling? I know, I have been doing it too. I'm going to make a heroic effort and I'm hoping others can too. It makes it easier to deal with people like Frac Tal accusing babblers of being an accomplice to suicide bombers if we're not all calling each other racists and anti-semites and the like.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
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Babbler # 2474

posted 21 December 2004 01:46 PM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry for the tedious replay, but in the interest of clarity, a provocative question was posed:

quote:
Anyway, the question isn't so much about what is in the Bible or Koran, but it's about what the followers of those books…choose to focus thier attention on. As Irshad Manji argues, there certainly are literalist traditions and sects in Judaism and Christianity, but only in Islam is literalism mainstream.

To which there was this answer:

quote:
Every religion has fundamentalists who push the limits if our understanding and reach barbarity. Every one. What makes Islam in the mid-east different, is that in our efforts to steal their oil while ensuring they derive no economic benefit we have destroyed their democracies, undermined their nationalism, and left them with fundamentalist preachers.

And then there was this rebuttal:

quote:
WRONG! Fundamentalism existed in the Arab world long before oil was discovered there. Anti-semitism existed in the Muslim world before Israel existed.

The rebuttal is a blatant non-sequiter, and so the debate can only come to a halt. The initial question wasn’t about the actual existence of fundamentalism in the Arab world, or its past before oil discoveries, or about the existence of anti-Semitism among Muslims. The answer directly addressed the second part of the question, the most provocative, which was about, again, the assumption that “only in Islam is literalism mainstream.”

So, why is fundamentalism mainstream in the Middle East? A reasonable answer was offered, and it was met with a non-sequiter. There is little value in posing a significant question if you don’t remember what you asked, or if you only asked it rhetorically. In either case, most answers will be inconveniences instead of opportunities to think. Put another way, it's impossible to ever progress, to be progressive, if issues such as the ones addressed in the initial question aren't taken seriously.


From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 21 December 2004 01:47 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Then you simply haven't been paying attention. You seem to feel a measure of smug satisfation because American Judges aren't necessarily clerics. You shouldn't. The Judeo-Christian God is right there in the first sentence of the Declaration of Independance, and in virtually every document that government has issued since then.

What's that got to do with anything? Lots of countries have some symbolic reference to God or to religion in the constitutions. I object to it, but it is reality. The point is that these countries also have separation of church and state to varying degrees and in recent history (ie: since the Spanish Inquisition) religious bodies have not had the power to have people killed for perceived ethical or religious lapses.

Does the US have laws that are carried out whereby anyone gay gets burned alive? Does Israel stone people to death for putting up a Christmas tree?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 21 December 2004 01:53 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By the end of Gorge-Us George's term, possibly. If the Israeli religious parties continue to grow and strengthen, possibly. Wasn't it a member of a religious party that killed Rabin and isn't that murder still celebrated by the Jewish fundies and isn't the killer a hero among them?

Before Germany marched along the road to madness they were a struggling democracy. It doesn't take much. Quit being so smug.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 21 December 2004 02:16 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
By the end of Gorge-Us George's term, possibly. If the Israeli religious parties continue to grow and strengthen, possibly. Wasn't it a member of a religious party that killed Rabin and isn't that murder still celebrated by the Jewish fundies and isn't the killer a hero among them?

Before Germany marched along the road to madness they were a struggling democracy. It doesn't take much. Quit being so smug.


And you wonder why phonicidal and others label you oddly? Here you are pointing to a group of Israeli right-wing lunatics and suggesting that somehow they may be representative of the whole. then as though that were not bad enough let's throw in the possibility that israel may turn into some nazi state!!! You are incorrigible!

Then we have this:


quote:
There it is again, the appeal to racism from our racist, dishonest friend.

Accusing fellow babblers of being racist and dishonest. Use to be against the rules. If you believe this to be true take it up with Audra otherwise hold your tongue...if you choose otherwise dont go crying to Mommy when phonicicdal and others call you on your hypocracy.

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 21 December 2004 02:28 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

And you wonder why phonicidal and others label you oddly?

How don't care how babble's racist fringe labels me.
quote:

Here you are pointing to a group of Israeli right-wing lunatics and suggesting that somehow they may be representative of the whole. then as though that were not bad enough let's throw in the possibility that israel may turn into some nazi state!!! You are incorrigible!


How large was Lenin's party when it seized power? The Brown Shirts began as a tiny group of fanatics. If you stepped beyond your own tribalism and studied history you might learn a thing or two.

quote:

Accusing fellow babblers of being racist and dishonest. Use to be against the rules. If you believe this to be true take it up with Audra otherwise hold your tongue...if you choose otherwise dont go crying to Mommy when phonicicdal and others call you on your hypocracy.


Don't lecture me for what you do you hypocrite.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 21 December 2004 03:12 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It seems like some people in their attempts to deflect and whitewash the barbarity of the Islamic regime in Iran are trying to say the following:

Nevermind that in mainstream Islam, that the vast majority in Arab countries believe in, people are routinely sentenced to death for things like having sex, being raped, being gay, wanting to switch religions, "blasphemy", "apostasy" etc... We can't criticize because a tiny minority of Christian or Jewish fundamentalists in Israel, or North America or Europe might possibly someday in the future gain power and start a similar reign of terror.

This is absurd.

Right now, today in 2004, life in Iran and Saudi Arabia can only be compared to life in Spain during the Inquisition or in England during the reign of Bloody Mary (ie: 500 years ago).

I wish someone in these countries woudl get inspired by Mahatma Gandhi, by the Jains, by the Quakers and the Mennonites and start a new movement within Islam that will crusade for a Reformation of Islam and a new theology that 100% rejects the use of torture or of the death penalty and that puts pacifism, humanitarianism, kindness and the preservation of human life at the top. Of course if anyone did they would probably be stoned to death for apostasy!

We have enough politicians and sectarian and military leaders that urge us to kill and torture. If religions have the possibility of being good for anything - it is that sometimes they try to get people to reject those forces calling for killing and hate and to instead be peaceful and humanistic. Protestant churches in the US and UK once upon a time led the crusade to stop slavery and were involved in civil rights and peace marches. Why can't a parallel movement come into existence in the Islamic world?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 December 2004 03:26 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about a few people in North America getting inspired by, oh, let's say Philip Roth, Stockholm?

I haven't read his new novel yet, but from the very detailed reviews I've seen, he isn't speculating any less than Wingy was above. Arguably, actually, he seems to be speculating more.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6796

posted 21 December 2004 03:32 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We have enough politicians and sectarian and military leaders that urge us to kill and torture. If religions have the possibility of being good for anything - it is that sometimes they try to get people to reject those forces calling for killing and hate and to instead be peaceful and humanistic. Protestant churches in the US and UK once upon a time led the crusade to stop slavery and were involved in civil rights and peace marches. Why can't a parallel movement come into existence in the Islamic world?

I, for one, protest.

Hey, Stocky, what's this talk of a crusade?

Your latent fascism is only exceeded by your references to torture, and who are you to claim the regime in Iran is "barbaric"?

Cultural imperialism is one thing but you have carried it to new heights!

The only slavery you know of is intellectual, and frankly we progressives are tired of your self serving attempts to dress up anti Islamic bigotry as some kind of phony pluralistic humanism.

What do you have to say to that?

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: Frac Tal ]


From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 21 December 2004 03:34 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I wish someone in these countries woudl get inspired by Mahatma Gandhi, by the Jains, by the Quakers and the Mennonites and start a new movement within Islam that will crusade for a Reformation of Islam and a new theology that 100% rejects the use of torture or of the death penalty and that puts pacifism, humanitarianism, kindness and the preservation of human life at the top.

Why don't you drop your transparent racism and begin such a movement for the human race, stockholm? Have you read the latest reports on torture in Iraq? Maybe you ought to:

quote:
FBI agents witnessed prisoners being beaten, choked and having lit cigarettes placed in their ears, the New York Times reported.

According to the documents, FBI agents said they saw detainees in Guantánamo Bay being held in chains for up to 24 hours.

In one email, the writer described seeing a "detainee sitting on the floor of the interview room with an Israeli flag draped around him, loud music being played and a strobe light flashing".

In another FBI message, dated from August, the writer reports more than once witnessing prisoners chained to the floor in foetal positions, with no food or water. They had often soiled themselves.

On one occasion, the temperature in a room was lowered so much the barefooted detainee was shivering. In another, the room was so hot the detainee had pulled out some of his hair before passing out.



Source

I know but that's nothing because those barbarians are your type of barbarians.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 21 December 2004 03:42 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'll tell you why, Stock old chap: Because there are people out there who insist on blaming all of Islam for the real atrocities of Iran's corrupt theocracy. Or for the abuses of Afghanistan's Taliban government. This provokes a knee-jerk "don't be so smug" reaction in some of those who rightly see Iran's current mess in it's historical context. Or Afghanistan's, for that matter.

Iran is a country which had it's fledgeling democratic moves sabotaged, and saw the placement of a murderous viceroy by the 'Great Powers'. The reaction of the citizens to this thug was unfortunate in that it allowed a worse group of fundamentalist thugs to seize power. The power of these fundamentalists was then cemented during a foolish proxy war fought on behalf of two far-removed superpowers. The fact that the population is majority Muslim had little bearing on this history. It resulted from the meddling of the 'Great Powers' in democracies that have the gall to start acting all democratic-like. I dare say that the recent history of Iran would be little changed if a Christian theocracy resulted from the overthrow of the Shah. Or if the place were, oh I dunno, called Serbia instead of Iran.

There are plenty of recent examples of Christian countries with out-of-control leaders sporting horrific human rights records. Cote D'Ivoire. Colombia. Guatemala. Texas. The common thread isn't the religion of the majority, it's the failure of secular democracy (generally through sabotage, either from within or abroad).

For the humour-impaired: Take it easy. Texas is a joke. Double-entendre intended.

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: Briguy ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 December 2004 04:05 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How many hours left, Audra?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 December 2004 04:40 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That FBI report is important, isn't it, Wingy.

It's too late to start a separate thread on it on babble, but that kind of ruined my breakfast this a.m. And it seems to be firm evidence that many superiors knew that this stuff -- the torture, the unauthorized interrogations -- were going on, at Guantanamo, in Iraq, probably everywhere else. It wasn't just "a few rotten apples" (that mistaken metaphor in the first place).

At least, the Globe and Mail seemed to think it is bigger than that.

The report that stopped me eating was the one from the FBI agent who walked in to find that a detainee had pulled out most of his own hair overnight.

Lord have mercy on us. But even before us, Lord, have mercy on that poor soul.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 21 December 2004 05:11 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Your latent fascism is only exceeded by your references to torture, and who are you to claim the regime in Iran is "barbaric"?

Cultural imperialism is one thing but you have carried it to new heights!


Oh my God you are so right. We ARE all such cultural imperialists. How dare we say anything untoward about a woman being stoned to death in Iran. We are being so ethno-centric. We should realize that in their culture stoning a woman to death for having sex is as acceptable and normal as it is for us to eat a roast turkey dinner every Dec. 25. What right have we to deny them their culture. I apologize to the Iranian people for allowing my ethno-centrism to cause me to dare to criticize their traditions (ie: stoning people to death).


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6796

posted 21 December 2004 05:13 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
Hmmmnph.
From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 December 2004 05:17 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stockholm, may I ask: did you write the letters that Amnesty was begging for, and for which Wingy opened this thread?

It disturbs me that this thread, which started out with such a profoundly important purpose, was hijacked so soon, and so foully.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 21 December 2004 05:22 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There are plenty of recent examples of Christian countries with out-of-control leaders sporting horrific human rights records. Cote D'Ivoire. Colombia. Guatemala. Texas. The common thread isn't the religion of the majority, it's the failure of secular democracy (generally through sabotage, either from within or abroad).


You're missing the whole point. There are many, many countries where a majority of the population is Christian and where dictators may be committing all kinds of abuses - but in none of these cases do we see Archbishops openly calling for mass killings and issuing press releases sytating that according to Jesus Christ it is essential that all infidels be stoned to death. If anything, in many of the places you cite, the churchs are actually opposed to the gov'ts atrocities and are giving sactuary to people who are on the run.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 December 2004 05:24 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Have you written those letters, Stockholm?

This is an urgent appeal from Amnesty International.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 21 December 2004 05:27 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Stockholm, may I ask: did you write the letters that Amnesty was begging for, and for which Wingy opened this thread?

Well I do give to AI once a month - hopefully some will go to cases like this.

But, now ask myself. How dare I intervene on behalf of this woman. It would be an act of smug ethnocentrism. How dare I critize time tested Shi-ite Muslim religious law. That is their culture. How can we justify venturing an opinion on it?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 December 2004 05:30 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Well I do give to AI once a month - hopefully some will go to cases like this.

But, now ask myself. How dare I intervene on behalf of this woman. It would be an act of smug ethnocentrism. How dare I critize time tested Shi-ite Muslim religious law. That is their culture. How can we justify venturing an opinion on it?


I must say: that is one of the most foul, self-obsessed posts I have ever seen on babble.

A woman's life is in danger, and Stockholm is grooming his tail-feathers as a debater. *smiley vomits*


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6796

posted 21 December 2004 05:31 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
You're an idiot.
From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 December 2004 05:33 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Those are Frac Tal's words, Stockholm, not mine.

Frac Tal, why don't you go recite that soliloquy from Hamlet to yourself? Only get it right this time?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6350

posted 21 December 2004 05:39 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle: you have to monitor these "discussions" for a living?

Wow.

Merry Xmas - you deserve it.

P.S. Between posts, people should try to fill out the urgent action request.

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: Critical Mass ]


From: King & Bay (downtown Toronto) - I am King of the World!!! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6796

posted 21 December 2004 05:40 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
By the pricking of my thumbs, skdadl this way comes....
From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 December 2004 05:46 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Have you written your letters, Frac Tal?

This is an urgent appeal from Amnesty International.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6796

posted 21 December 2004 05:48 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, skdadl, I'm busy protesting the murders of Israelis.
From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 21 December 2004 05:49 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I will write a letter. Now I feel vindicated in my argument that religion as it is practiced and implemented by the Iranian authorities is inhuman and barbaric.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6796

posted 21 December 2004 05:52 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, I've cc'ed a bunch of people too.
From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 December 2004 05:54 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I will write a letter. Now I feel vindicated in my argument that religion as it is practiced and implemented by the Iranian authorities is inhuman and barbaric.

Damn right it is, and I have no problem saying it. Neither would anyone else if they got to hear stories from a loved one who survived torture at the hands of that barbaric - YES, BARBARIC - regime.

Are Iranians barbaric as a people? Not at all. But their government sure as hell is, and so is their criminal (supposedly) justice system.

Thanks for bringing this appeal to our attention, WingNut.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 21 December 2004 05:54 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm. Symbolic outrage. How secular of you.

That's for Stockholm protesting the religious aspect of the injustice, for clarity...

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: ronb ]


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 December 2004 05:59 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Now I feel vindicated

One day it's gonna hit you, Stockholm:

This thread was not about you.

This woman's life is not about you.

Human history is not your personal playground. Other people are not bit players in your own melodrama.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7050

posted 21 December 2004 06:10 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Hamlet... Only get it right this time?

Best suicide allusion I've heard all night!

edit: hilariously I never got around to sending out those letters. Funny when you go back and check your posts, eh?

[ 02 January 2006: Message edited by: Papal Bull ]


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7635

posted 21 December 2004 06:21 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Papal_Bull:
their other potential homeland (Guyana)...
Point of information...it was Uganda. And, as this page points out "Uganda Isn't Zion" But, it's the best they could get at the time. And, they sure as hell needed to get out of Europe.

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: Phonicidal ]


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 December 2004 06:26 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're a good reader, Papal Bull.

And a good writer too.

This is an urgent appeal from Amnesty International.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4722

posted 21 December 2004 06:40 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Typed and sent. Now lets seem some of the usual blowhards actually do something for a change
From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 21 December 2004 09:57 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
How about a few people in North America getting inspired by, oh, let's say Philip Roth, Stockholm?

I haven't read his new novel yet, but from the very detailed reviews I've seen, he isn't speculating any less than Wingy was above. Arguably, actually, he seems to be speculating more.



You're comparing Wingnut to one of the world's foremost fiction writers, a national book award winner and nobel prize winner for fictiobn? Please that is both absurd and an insult to Roth.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 21 December 2004 10:04 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have written my appeal and sent out further notices to many.

As for this:

quote:
Don't lecture me for what you do you hypocrite.
Wingnut I am truly beginning to believe that you are so self obsessed and paranoid that your confusion is to be pitied.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 21 December 2004 10:12 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Why don't you knock it off, Macabee. I've born the brunt of your crapulence, and frankly, I think you should give it a rest before you cause any more damage.

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 21 December 2004 10:54 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are Iranians barbaric as a people? Not at all.

Hear, hear. The Iranians I've met, even the dodgy realtors, are some of the sweetest people I know.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

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