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Author Topic: Hamas vs. PIJ
Phonicidal
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posted 16 December 2004 01:19 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha'aretz reports that there might be something to look forward to in the Middle East (read it all!):
quote:
A growing rift between Hamas and Islamic Jihad has led to a break in cooperation between the two groups, and is threatening to lead to an all-out clash between them, according to a leading Hamas preacher who recently slammed Jihad for trying to outmuscle Hamas.

and
quote:
"An Islamic Jihad takeover would means the Shi'ites take over, and if that happens you will all be turned into heretics .... We must fight and clash with all those who are not Sunni and guarantee our faith remains pure."
I am not a fan of innocent people getting killed. But, what could be better for the Palestinian people than the minority of terrorists amongst them killing each other off? Fewer terrorists per capita means more moderates per capita. And, isn't that a good thing? It would take years for members of terrorist groups to learn non-violence. But, this way, they don't need to, and Palestinians take a much needed step towards their own state.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 16 December 2004 01:27 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Quoting Phonicidal:

"I am not a fan of innocent people getting killed. But, what could be better for the Palestinian people than the minority of terrorists amongst them killing each other off?"

Simple. An end to the illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and the conditions that produce terrorists.

I don't like terrorism any more than you do. But internecine combat has never been a very effective way of achieving peace - it creates a culture of violence.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 December 2004 01:29 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Advocating killing is not ok on babble.
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WingNut
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posted 16 December 2004 01:31 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Blind sectarian hate, skdadl. He knows no better. Another failed human being.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 16 December 2004 01:57 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
An end to the illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and the conditions that produce terrorists.
My point, legatta, is that even if the "occupation" and "the conditions that produce terrorists" ended today and a Paletinian state was declared tomorrow, there would still be a number of terrorists mixed in with the general Palestinian population. And, they would still hold the balance of power amongst the Palestinian population.

I think we all agree that not having terrorists around is a good thing. But, for them to unlearn violence would take an awfully long time. And, in the mean time, they'd be training new terrorists. So, one quick way to get rid of the terrorists that are there now is for them to kill each other. And, nobody should cry over them when they do.


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Phonicidal
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posted 16 December 2004 01:58 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Advocating killing is not ok on babble.
I'm advocating terrorists killing other terrorists. I think you can let this one slide.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 December 2004 01:59 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Absolutely no.
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lagatta
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posted 16 December 2004 02:01 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nope. It is against babble policy to advocate killing people, even George Bush and Osama Bin Laden.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
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posted 16 December 2004 02:09 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
Originally posted by wingnut:

quote:
There's the crux of the issue right there. If we could begin a collection to assist the Palestinians in purchasing artillery to target Israeli cities, and tanks and armoured bulldozers to crush their homes and raze their crops, and helicopter gunships to fire missiles into busy streets in legitimate efforts to assisinate Israeli political leaders, then we would have a just and legitimate war and the Palestinians could end the suicide bombings.
Its win-win-win.

Originally posted by skdadl:

quote:
Advocating killing is not ok on babble.

Why did you not object when wingnut wrote that, skdadl? Why the double standard?

And wingnut calls phonicidal a failed human being full of blind sectarian hate!
This coming from Mr. "Zionists kill children for sport."

Wingnut was shown to be a liar, not to mention a hater in

this thread.

Warning: Pointing this out may cause his head to explode.


From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 December 2004 02:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Frac Tal, you have made this same stupid point before, and I have responded to it before.

Wingy was obviously writing ironically, sarcastically. He was not advocating killing.

You, I gather, want that licence. Forget it. But work on your sense of humour when you've got a chance.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 16 December 2004 02:12 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 16 December 2004: Message edited by: Briguy ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 16 December 2004 02:12 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Nope. It is against babble policy to advocate killing people, even George Bush and Osama Bin Laden.
Can show me the policy that says so? I'm not advocating killing any individual or racial/ethnic group. I'm advocating bad people vs. other bad people. Where's the moral dilemma here?

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
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posted 16 December 2004 02:13 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
Your and wingnut's hypocrisy are not funny in the least, skdadl.
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Jingles
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posted 16 December 2004 02:20 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Phony is merely following the precepts of that great philosopher who wrote:

"Kill 'em all, and let god sort 'em out"

What could be better news than the possiblity that Palestinians will turn to killing each other in large numbers? Think of all the money the IDF will save on bullets and missiles! Hey, maybe Mossad could provide funding and arms to both sides to aid in the "bad" people killing other "bad" people. What's that? Oh....


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 16 December 2004 02:26 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:
"Kill 'em all, and let god sort 'em out"

What could be better news than the possiblity that Palestinians will turn to killing each other in large numbers?


Look, it would be great if all of the Palestinian terrorist organizations came to the realization that Abbas seems to have arrived at, that violence isn't working. But, I don't expect that to happen. And, I don't hope that "Palestinians will turn to killing each other in large numbers". Just the terrorists.

So, it's more like "Allow them to kill 'emselves, and let god sort 'em out"

I'm not suggesting that any outside interference is necessary.


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 December 2004 02:34 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is a politically more interesting perspective on this issue in this thread.

Some, anyway, seem to believe that Palestinian resistance groups are effectively being won over to guerrilla warfare against the IDF and away from attacks on civilian targets in Israel.


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remind
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posted 16 December 2004 02:34 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have read, and re-read the thread you linked to above, and I simply cannot find any advocation of people killing each other, or hatred spewing by wingnut.

What I did see was you putting a lot of words in wingnut's mouth, that had absolutely no basis that could be found in any of the postings. In fact, it sounds more like you were hate spewing at wingnut. You said wingnut made comments about Israelis being child killers,as you said:When you attack Israel ( we know you want it destroyed ), are we not supposed to care what you think?

Most curious. Is it that your hatred is blind, the kind that says: "Don't mind me, get those Israeli's, they kill kids for sport"? that was such a fabrication that it should have been called out.


quote:
Originally posted by Frac Tal:
Your and wingnut's hypocrisy are not funny in the least, skdadl.

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 16 December 2004 03:58 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK, let's get back to the point here. Can somebody explain to me how Hamas killing Palestinian Islamic Jihad, or visa versa, would be a bad thing (provided that's all who gets killed)?
From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 December 2004 04:02 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow.
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Coyote
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posted 16 December 2004 04:07 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Phonicidal:
OK, let's get back to the point here. Can somebody explain to me how Hamas killing Palestinian Islamic Jihad, or visa versa, would be a bad thing (provided that's all who gets killed)?

1. Some of us crazy hippies don't enjoy the notion of anyone being killed at all.

2. An internal civil war between Palestinian resistance organizations is not conducive to the united front necessary to combat the occupation.

3. There is absolutely no gaurantee that any such intercine warfare would only affect the respective organizations; if it did, it would be the first in history.

4. Ask yourself why you don't want the different settler factions to start shooting each other.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 16 December 2004 04:19 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yikes.

You were concerned about this guy's feelings in the circumcision thread? Why?

Is this the reincarnation of Mish?


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Phonicidal
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posted 16 December 2004 06:15 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
1. Some of us crazy hippies don't enjoy the notion of anyone being killed at all.
In general I don't either. But, when it comes to who I cry for and who I don't, I have to prioritize. I don't cry when terrorists kill each other. I don't cry when gang members kill each other. And, I believe that the evil that some people do while they are alive far outweighs the unpleasantness of killing them.

quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
2. An internal civil war between Palestinian resistance organizations is not conducive to the united front necessary to combat the occupation.
I disagree. How can the existance of these terrorist organizations be conucive to the Palestinian cause? Mahmoud Abbas apparently doesn't think that they are.

quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
3. There is absolutely no gaurantee that any such intercine warfare would only affect the respective organizations; if it did, it would be the first in history.
That may be true. But, one could only hope that after fighting for a while, they would see the folly of their ways. And, in the long term, fewer innocent Palestinians would be killed by the conflict than they would be in the short term by terrorists killing terrorists.

quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
4. Ask yourself why you don't want the different settler factions to start shooting each other.
Actually, when the IDF moves in to evacuate settlers, if they shoot at them, I sure as hell hope that the IDF shoots back. If it takes another Altalena, so be it. But, if the Palestinians want to have a state, they'll have to show at least that much commitment to destroying the negative elements of their society.

[ 16 December 2004: Message edited by: Phonicidal ]


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 16 December 2004 07:16 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, no and no!

Phonicidal, I am not a pacifist or a Christian. I sure wouldn't cry if either George Bush or Osama Bin Laden were hunted down as they have the blood of thousands on their hands (George more than Osama, but that is because in the scheme of things he remains more powerful, not because he is any more murderous a spoilt rich boy) but I know that if they were, the consequences would be a lot more innocent people murdered in New York, Madrid, Baghdad and many other places...

But no, one cannot remove all "bad elements" by killing them without reproducing the same type of social order. There is a much more recent example than de-Nazification. In Rwanda and neighbouring Burundi, Tutsis and Hutus will have to find some kind of way to achieve justice and live together.

Your last point simply doesn't make sense. Why should the Palestinians have to earn the right to a country of their own? That has nothing to do with bringing terrorists to justice.
One could turn that round and say Israelis, who are there on someone else's land (as are we, as I'm fully aware...) have to prove their good fellowship to the native population...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 16 December 2004 08:17 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wingy was obviously writing ironically, sarcastically. He was not advocating killing.

Ironic racism is not allowed babble, that's already been established, but advocating murder ironically is okay? That reeks of hypocrisy.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 December 2004 12:36 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee, we wouldn't want to offend murderers.
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beluga2
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posted 17 December 2004 12:43 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm sure Phonypsycho must've been cheering with delight as all those nasty mujahadeen terrorists went at it in Afghanistan in the early 90's after the Soviets pulled out, right? After all, what could be more entertaining than watching demented fundamentalist lunatics blasting away at each other?

'Course, there was the small problem of thousands upon thousands of people dead, a country destroyed even more than it already was, and the eventual rise to power of those charmers the Taliban and their favourite houseguest, Osama bin Laden. And we all know where that led.

With any luck, Phony's hoped-for Palestinian civil war will have long-term results as happy and joyful as the one in Afghanistan did.

Yee-haw. Pass the fucking popcorn.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 17 December 2004 01:03 AM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Your last point simply doesn't make sense. Why should the Palestinians have to earn the right to a country of their own? That has nothing to do with bringing terrorists to justice.
It has everything to do with the terrorists. If the terrorists are not dealt with, Israel has no incentive to allow a Palestinian state to be created. Now, I don't imagine Israel's way of dealing with terrorists would meet with much approval on babble. And, the PA is working with terrorists. So, who is going to deal with them?
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
One could turn that round and say Israelis, who are there on someone else's land (as are we, as I'm fully aware...) have to prove their good fellowship to the native population...
Which land are you talking about? Jews have every right to have a state in the land of Israel. That doesn't mean that Palestinians don't also have rights to the land. But, ever heard the expression "posession is nine tenths of the law"? When it comes to two parties with rights to the same land, negotiations are the only way to go if the weaker party wants some.

Statehood isn't only about the right to a particular part of land. For example, you may dispute Canada's right to this land, but now that we have it, there are semi regular expeditions to the coldest farthest areas of the north, just to assert Canada's sovereignty and demonstrate our control and presence over the land. Israel has the land and is able to protect it. Israel didn't take the land and destroy it. They built it up. They've proven that they can defend it. So, they've earned plenty of rights to stay on top of what they started with.


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 17 December 2004 01:14 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel is a terrorist state engaged in ethnic cleansing, extrajudicial murders, and the occupation and brutal repression of some three million people with reports IDF members have killed children for sport. Would you agree phonocidal that it is a good thing if Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Israelis all killed each other?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 17 December 2004 12:34 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Israel is a terrorist state...blah blah blah blah
As Alan Dershowitz put it in The Case for Israel:

quote:
"When the best is accused of being the worst, the focus must shift to the accusers...It is they who must stand in the dock of history, along with others who have also singled out the Jewish people, the Jewish religion, the Jewish culture, or the Jewish nation for unique and undeserved condemnation."

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 17 December 2004 12:51 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I wasn't talking about statehood so much as recognising that the Israelis are living on the Palestinians' land - as we are living on the lands of the First Nations. Not being a Zionist, I don't believe in biblical deeds to property, or the right of Jews, or any other people, to live where their ancestors lived thousands of years ago.

I have better cause than most babblers to know the conditions postwar Jewish DPs were living in and why they were so desperate to start a new life anywhere - in Palestine, in the Americas, in their own countries with proper protection. I certainly can't blame those Holocaust survivors who were still being held in detention while their former murderers ran free! But the Palestinians were not responsible for what the Nazis and their collaborators and allies did to Jews, Roma and others. I don't think the Palestinians have to prove anything to have a right to live on their own land.

Of course terrorists (such as suicide bombers of civilian targets and their ringleaders) should be condemned (duh!) but that does not deny national or human rights to other Palestinians. That is like saying you shouldn't have rights because you are Jewish as is the war criminal Henry Kissinger, for example. You would quite rightly say that was gross anti-semitism!

As for Realpolitik - in the name of which such evils have been done, notably to the Jews - I don't think Israelis will have much choice - see the New Israel thread referring to Michel Warshawsky's book "Towards an Open Tomb". I am utterly terrified of what this march to folly will mean for Palestinians and Israelis alike, and to a great many Arabs and Jews outside Israel/Palestine.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 17 December 2004 12:58 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When the best is accused of being the worst blah blah blah

Occupying land that isn't ours and extrajudicially executing the people that live there just doesn't matter because we're better than them. Look I can prove it - it's an established legal fact because Dershowitz typed it.


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skdadl
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posted 17 December 2004 01:03 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dershowitz is an apologist for torture. He has about as much credibility now as John Ashcroft or Alberto Gonzales.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 17 December 2004 02:52 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Dershowitz is an apologist for torture. He has about as much credibility now as John Ashcroft or Alberto Gonzales.
That's a hefty accusation. I hope that you can back it up.

As far as I understand, Dershowitz does not advocate "torture". But, I believe that he did discuss the regulation of using physical pressure in his book "Why Terrorism Works". The purpose of this would be to take the decision to use certain interrogation techniques out of the hands of 18 year old soldiers and into the capable hands of a sober judge. This would actually limit the abuse of prisoners, not increase it.


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 December 2004 02:56 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Phonicidal, can you read?

"Advocate" is your word, not mine. I called Dershowitz an "apologist," and for what he argued in that book, the word fits perfectly.

Any torture is too much, not to mention a violation of international law. You appear to think otherwise. If so, I see no further reason ever to discuss anything with you.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 17 December 2004 02:56 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israeli Army Raid Into Gaza Kills 6 Palestinians

At least six Palestinians were killed and 24 wounded in Friday's army raid into Khan Younis, Gaza's second largest city and a hotbed of militants who frequently pepper nearby Jewish settlements with mortar and rocket fire.

Four of the dead were militants and two were civilian bystanders, local medics and witnesses said.

NEW CHANCE FOR PEACE?

The incursion unfolded hours after Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told a high-profile security conference that there was a unique chance for Middle East peacemaking with new Palestinian leaders following the death of Yasser Arafat.

Sharon said he was ready to coordinate a planned pullout from Gaza with a moderate post-Arafat leader, likely to be Mahmoud Abbas. He is favored to win a Jan. 9 presidential election and advocates a halt to violence and fresh talks.

About 600 people, many carrying small children in freezing pre-dawn darkness, fled homes in neighborhoods bearing the brunt of the raid and were given shelter in a U.N.-run school

Say one thing do another


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 17 December 2004 03:45 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"When the best is accused of being the worst, the focus must shift to the accusers...It is they who must stand in the dock of history, along with others who have also singled out the Jewish people, the Jewish religion, the Jewish culture, or the Jewish nation for unique and undeserved condemnation."

the Jewish people, the Jewish religion, the Jewish culture, or the Jewish nation is the best?

I think we can now safely call this racism. Where is my friend from the other thread. Not much different from Stockhom, is it?

Let's re-word it:

"When the best is accused of being the worst, the focus must shift to the accusers...It is they who must stand in the dock of history, along with others who have also singled out the German people, the Aryan religion, the Germanic culture, or the German nation for unique and undeserved condemnation."

Sounds almost exactly what someone infamous said about a half-century ago.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 17 December 2004 07:03 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"When the best is accused of being the worst blah blah blah...unique and undeserved condemnation

Thing is, crticism of Israel is not unique, nor is it undeserved. So Dershie doesn't really have a leg to stand on. Nor do you, Phonypsycho.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 17 December 2004 07:05 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
the Jewish people, the Jewish religion, the Jewish culture, or the Jewish nation is the best?

I think we can now safely call this racism. Where is my friend from the other thread. Not much different from Stockhom, is it?


Actually, if you read the quote in context (I provided the link above), it's quite clear what Dershowitz is referring to. So, I don't feel the need to elaborate beyond saying that your search for a confrontation where there isn't one is stunning.
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Let's re-word it:
Yeah, well, I consider comparissons of most things, including Israel, to The Holocaust as tantamount to Holocaust denial. When you can call Israelis Nazis and Bush Hitler, you've not only lost touch with the reality of The Holocaust, but the reality of the world that we live in today.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 17 December 2004 07:08 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by black_dog:
Thing is, crticism of Israel is not unique, nor is it undeserved. So Dershie doesn't really have a leg to stand on. Nor do you, Phonypsycho.
It's not unique in that everybody loves to pile on criticism of Israel. The thing that makes it unique is that the criticisms are not also being doled out to places that really deserve it. And that's the point that Dershowitz is making. Criticisms of Israel are often so out of proportion that they reveal the accusers as little more than hatemongers.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 17 December 2004 08:49 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, most comparisons of things to Hitler or the Holocaust or Nazism are not Holocaust denial; they are merely sloppy thinking. There is a reason Nazism is seen as the gold standard of organised evil (or "modern barbarism") and, say, the workers of Solidarnosc, whose parents had lived through the murderous occupation, called the troops called out against them "Gestapo".

The Holocaust, and Nazism overall, must not be taken out of history. Like all great historical catastrophes, they had origins and a context.

Holocaust denial is a specific thing. It is usually the product of the far right (yes, including their friends in Japan, the Middle East and elsewhere) who either denied the existence of Nazi death camps or the fact that there was a deliberate, systematic policy of extermination of "Untermenschen". I could retort that casual accusations of Holocaust denial (undue comparisons etc) minimise the reality of Holocaust denial which is the mainstay of neo-fascist movements which remain "ultra-violent" to this day.

I should have more news soon about the neo-Nazi bombing trial in Munich, and will definitely be posting a memorial thread with a lot of links on the upcoming 60th annniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 17 December 2004 09:01 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah, well, I consider comparissons of most things, including Israel, to The Holocaust as tantamount to Holocaust denial.

Yes, and what a nice neat way to deny the nazi-like racism you preach.

When you can invoke words that to many will invoke Nazi claims of race superiority and invoke the memory of the holocaust at the same time, you demonstrate the holocaust, to you, has become nothing more than a tool of propaganda and a cloak to hide behind for the hatred you spew.

For shame. With the words you utter, even if at first uttered by someone else, you echo the words of Aryan supremacy of the 20's and 30's and white supremacy of today.

And then you hide behind the holocaust. For shame. How do you look at yourself in the mirror.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 17 December 2004 09:01 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Enough with the "Phonypsycho" please. I know, I've thought up a hundred variations on his name and maybe I've even used one (I can't remember whether I have now). But enough's enough.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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Babbler # 7635

posted 17 December 2004 10:14 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Yes, and what a nice neat way to deny the nazi-like racism you preach.
Never have I preached anything even remotely racist. You ought to appologize for making such an unfounded accusation.
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
...you demonstrate the holocaust, to you, has become nothing more than a tool of propaganda and a cloak to hide behind for the hatred you spew.
Excuse me! YOU brought The Holocaust into the dicussion. So, don't start crying about being questioned for doing so. The fact is that there is a very good reason why people call Israelis Nazis. They know that calling a Jew "Nazi"is the best way to inflict maximum damage.

quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
For shame. With the words you utter, even if at first uttered by someone else, you echo the words of Aryan supremacy of the 20's and 30's and white supremacy of today.
Are you in high school? Your argument clearly makes no sense. It's also clear from your comments that you have STILL not read the quote in context. That's the best way to explain how your responses could make such little sense (there are another couple of options, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are mentally ill or stupid).

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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Babbler # 7635

posted 17 December 2004 10:17 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Enough with the "Phonypsycho" please. I know, I've thought up a hundred variations on his name and maybe I've even used one (I can't remember whether I have now). But enough's enough.
So, do I get a gold star or something for not flying into a rage like some other babblers would for being targetted in such fashion? Just checking if you issue praise as easily as you issue warnings.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 17 December 2004 10:42 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Never have I preached anything even remotely racist. You ought to appologize for making such an unfounded accusation.
For God's sake at least be honest with yourself. You began this thread to ridicule Islamic beliefs. And when I asked you a very pointed question with regard to Israeli actions in the West Bank, one that often targets civilians for collective punishment, eviction from ancestral lands, beatings and murder, you replied with: "When the best is accused of being the worst, the focus must shift to the accusers...It is they who must stand in the dock of history, along with others who have also singled out the Jewish people, the Jewish religion, the Jewish culture, or the Jewish nation for unique and undeserved condemnation." which was clearly intended as a claim for racial superiority.

quote:
Excuse me! YOU brought The Holocaust into the dicussion.

You are a liar, intellectually dishonest and disingenuous. Let's begin with the lie. I never invoked the memory of the holocaust. You did. You used a quote that was intended to answer a question in a flippant and racist manner arguing racial superiority. I argued the quote is not unlike one a person would expect to hear a half-century ago by race supremacists. I did not mention the holocaust. You chose to hide your racism behind it.

You are intellectually dishonest as you claim I should read a quote in context when you yourself quoted it out of context (presumably). In what context, to the question asked, does it fit?

You are disingenous as you claim I should become acquainted with the context when the link you posted is to a book store where the text is not available to learn the context.

I may indeed be stupid or mentally ill. But you are still a racist and not even courageous enough to be honest about it.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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Babbler # 7635

posted 18 December 2004 01:31 AM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WingNut, if you persist in your hostility, I'm done with you on this topic. If you can't comprehend the written english language enough to see that your claim that I am a racist is entirely unfounded, there's just no way to engage in a dialogue with you. If you wanted to talk issues, fine. But, clearly you're more interested in bashing Israel and myself than you are in civil discourse. Grow up, or go away.
From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 18 December 2004 01:46 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You created a thread to celebrate the possibility of Palestinians killing each other and you imply, now, that you are looking to discuss issues? You are a joke. That is bashing you. I have not bashed Israel unless you regard describing factual circumstances as bashing in which case I would suggest your problem is with the truth, as previously witnessed, and not me.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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Babbler # 6914

posted 18 December 2004 12:23 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Phonicidal:
Criticisms of Israel are often so out of proportion that they reveal the accusers as little more than hatemongers.

You don't need to be a torture advocate to see the problematic logic here. There are plenty of reasons outside of 'hatemongering' for why Israel seems to receive a disproportionate amount of criticism. We might start with the central place that the Holocaust holds in much "Western" moral figuring. This place is a result of the efforts of Jews and non-Jews (both hatemongers and not) alike.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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Babbler # 3138

posted 18 December 2004 01:41 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK, let's set aside the killing issue. I think it would be great if hamas and Islamic Jihad got into a major conflict because it woud waste so much money! Launching suicide attacks on Israel doesn't only require mentally ill volunteers who want to die (in the West people who are suicidal get sent to psychiatrists, in the Middle East they get handed a bomb and encouraged to kill themsleves). terrorist operations also cost money. I hope that Hamas and HIJ bankrupt themselves fighting a sort of civil war within the Arab extremist camp. Every bullet fired and every dollar spent in a fight between th3ese two evil organizations is a dollar not spent on financing terrorist acts aginst Israel and the West.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 18 December 2004 05:13 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Israel is a terrorist state engaged in ethnic cleansing, extrajudicial murders, and the occupation and brutal repression of some three million people with reports IDF members have killed children for sport. Would you agree phonocidal that it is a good thing if Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Israelis all killed each other?

This accusation generalized as you have put it here is evil nonsence. If such occurred within the IDF such soldiers would be prosecuted. To make such allegations IMHO is also against babble policy becuse it exposes a group to hatred, to wit Israelis. That might even be against Canada's hate laws.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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Babbler # 4014

posted 18 December 2004 05:20 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Post your complaint to the RCMP here. I'd love to hear it.

[ 18 December 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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Babbler # 2440

posted 18 December 2004 05:35 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
If such occurred within the IDF such soldiers would be prosecuted.

You mean slapped on the wrist.

quote:
An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.

The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.
...
... the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.

Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers swiftly identified her as a "girl of about 10" who was "scared to death".



From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 18 December 2004 05:42 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A Macabee sighting!

I wondered where you were. Really. I missed you, Mac.

And I think I see why you returned to us, too.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 18 December 2004 07:11 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
If such occurred within the IDF such soldiers would be prosecuted.

... With the usual vim and vigor that accompanies a slap on the wrist, right Macabee?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 18 December 2004 10:52 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
A Macabee sighting!

I wondered where you were. Really. I missed you, Mac.

And I think I see why you returned to us, too.



Ahh but I was never really gone

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 19 December 2004 02:12 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This accusation generalized as you have put it here is evil nonsence. If such occurred within the IDF such soldiers would be prosecuted. To make such allegations IMHO is also against babble policy becuse it exposes a group to hatred, to wit Israelis. That might even be against Canada's hate laws.

It's amazing how easily you can overlook the clear and obvious racism of a fellow traveller to construct something that doesn't exist.

But then you support Israeli racist policies don't you?

Edited to add: Wait a minute, there is an implied threat in there ... Go for it. I dare you. What a joy it would be to to provide evidence before a court of Israel's actions in the West Bank and Gaza. Do you think I would have trouble finding evidence and testimony? Remember the McDonald's trial?

Please, go ahead and make my century.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 19 December 2004 10:35 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

Ahh but I was never really gone


I don't doubt that, Macabee. Layers upon layers.

The trainee is a little raw though, isn't he, Mac.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 19 December 2004 10:36 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingy, I would be honoured to appear as a character witness.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 19 December 2004 12:13 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:


I don't doubt that, Macabee. Layers upon layers.

The trainee is a little raw though, isn't he, Mac.



At first I didnt know what you were talking about but then as I tried to understand the mind as it works here I got it...of course you believe phonocidal is a protege of sorts.

How hard it must be for you to even contemplate that there are others out there, many others who support Israel and its people; who are not prepared to sit idly by while some here disparage , provoke and yes even spread hatred against the Jewish State. And yes how easy it must be for you to figure that this is part of some "conspiracy" by me to find these people, train them and put them on babble to spread "vile Isreali propaganda". Ah yes Skdadl and others if this were only true how easy it would be.

Sadly for you it is a conspiracy in your mind only. I enjoy watching many of you squirm while phonocidal rips apart your well entrenched animus of all things Israel but no Skdadl he has nothing to do with me...only in a conspiratorial mind but in rerality nothing to do with me.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 19 December 2004 12:22 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

It's amazing how easily you can overlook the clear and obvious racism of a fellow traveller to construct something that doesn't exist.

But then you support Israeli racist policies don't you?

Edited to add: Wait a minute, there is an implied threat in there ... Go for it. I dare you. What a joy it would be to to provide evidence before a court of Israel's actions in the West Bank and Gaza. Do you think I would have trouble finding evidence and testimony? Remember the McDonald's trial?

Please, go ahead and make my century.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]



Implied threat? Wow paranoia knows no bounds. Wingnut it is against Candian law to knowingly and wilfully promote hatred against an identifiable group. By claiming that Israelis are "child-killers" can it not be seen as doing such? After-all can there be anyone more vile than a child killer? When one extrapalates an incident that occurred, a terribly tragic shooting of a Palestinian child by an IDF soldier and then allude that this is common place in the IDF that some how its citizen soldiers can commonly murder Palestinian children, do you not provoke hatred generally against any and all israelis?

Wingnut there are many identifiable Israelis in Canada. Some attend univeristies here, some on business, some landed immigrants...can you not see the potential harm you do?

I dont believe for a moment that anyone here would ever be charged under Canadian law for this provocation I only suggest this as a cautionary thought....that hopefully despite your anger and obvious dislike of Israel you would consider before typing your messages.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 19 December 2004 12:26 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

but in rerality nothing to do with me.

That's good, Mac, because I have been holding back a few times already; but the next time he advocates cheer over anyone killing anyone else, I'm gonna snap and write to a mod.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 19 December 2004 12:32 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then maybe, if you are concerned about Israel's reputation, you should speak out against the occupation and Israeli attrocities, as well as Palestinian terrorism.

To even suggest the killing of one child is all we are talking about is dishonest on your part. How many hundreds of Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli bullets?

"Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered--death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights...in Sarajevo--but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport," Hedges wrote. His account, coolly factual yet full of passionate intensity, was written not for his own paper but for Harper's Magazine, which sent Hedges to Gaza on his vacation." Full article

So many haters, eh, Macabee and always an atrocity to be minimized and explained away.

But it is not Israel that is wrong. It is not Sharon or the IDF or even the occupation. Nope, it is me. I am evil. Blame WingNut. That is the solution.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 19 December 2004 12:32 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

That's good, Mac, because I have been holding back a few times already; but the next time he advocates cheer over anyone killing anyone else, I'm gonna snap and write to a mod.


That threat should be aimed at phonicidal not me. That you would use me as your funnel says much still.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 19 December 2004 12:37 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course, you are right, Mac.

I'm sure he'll be along shortly.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 19 December 2004 12:41 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Funny, I saw no one squirming as phoni ripped apart anything, let alone a "well entrenched animus of all things Israel". As phoni ripped apart nothing other than s/he's own credibility.

Why is it that Israel can never be discussed in terms that are critical of its actions just as any other country is?

Why does Israel have a higher threshold of acceptable behaviour, before accountability is considered, in your eyes, as you feel anything it does is fine and righteous?

quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
I enjoy watching many of you squirm while phonocidal rips apart your well entrenched animus of all things Israel

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 19 December 2004 12:59 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee has no difficulty with real hate. But he has no difficulty reconstructing valid criticism of Israel into a false hate.

He has no shame.

I know a thing or two about sectarianism. I know it doesn't sit still. Religious sectarianism, for example, eventaully grows into racial, ethnic and national sectariansim. Soon, it is not enough to be of the same faith but you must also be of the same skin color, same tribe, same language.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7039

posted 19 December 2004 01:39 PM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

.... who are not prepared to sit idly by while some here disparage , provoke ... the Jewish State.

Are you referring to ex-Israeli Supreme Court Judge Kahane finding Sharon partly guilty for the masscares at Sabra and Shatilla?

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: VanLuke ]


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 19 December 2004 01:47 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey Macabee, I guess IDF soldiers never shoot unarmed people in the back either, right? (To my knowledge even the incompetent idiots in the Vancouver PD haven't shot unarmed people in the back, although they've done a good job of shooting unarmed people holding Walkmans.)

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 19 December 2004 01:50 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Funny, I saw no one squirming as phoni ripped apart anything, let alone a "well entrenched animus of all things Israel". As phoni ripped apart nothing other than s/he's own credibility.

Why is it that Israel can never be discussed in terms that are critical of its actions just as any other country is?

Why does Israel have a higher threshold of acceptable behaviour, before accountability is considered, in your eyes, as you feel anything it does is fine and righteous?


Again with these accusations. Israel is held to the same moral standards as any other democratic nation. But it is those who negatively apply hateful streoptypes to an entire nation that should be condemmened by you. Yet you remain quitet.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 19 December 2004 01:54 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Then maybe, if you are concerned about Israel's reputation, you should speak out against the occupation and Israeli attrocities, as well as Palestinian terrorism.

To even suggest the killing of one child is all we are talking about is dishonest on your part. How many hundreds of Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli bullets?

"Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered--death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights...in Sarajevo--but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport," Hedges wrote. His account, coolly factual yet full of passionate intensity, was written not for his own paper but for Harper's Magazine, which sent Hedges to Gaza on his vacation." Full article

So many haters, eh, Macabee and always an atrocity to be minimized and explained away.

But it is not Israel that is wrong. It is not Sharon or the IDF or even the occupation. Nope, it is me. I am evil. Blame WingNut. That is the solution.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


You can blame many things Wingnut including the brutal homicide bombers that have caused the IDF to take actions to protect its citizens.

However when you aim your vitriol in such a manner as to accuse an entire nation of people of being child-killers you engage in the most hateful streotyping . That you cannot see it through your blindness is terribly sad because I do not believe you to be the menacing prurveyor of hateful innuendo that you engage in here.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 19 December 2004 01:59 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Hey Macabee, I guess IDF soldiers never shoot unarmed people in the back either, right? (To my knowledge even the incompetent idiots in the Vancouver PD haven't shot unarmed people in the back, although they've done a good job of shooting unarmed people holding Walkmans.)

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]



I will not excuse atrocities that occur when aqn IDF soldier must engage an enemy like homicidal maniacs targeting innocents.It must be and is almost impossible for us to comprehend this. Yet I condemn and have always any atrocity commited by any soldier of a democratic nation. Thankfully Israel punishes its trangressors.

That said, I do try to see and understand that the Middle east is not Vancouver. That you can compare both says much to me about your understanding of geo-political events. You have much to learn.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 19 December 2004 02:00 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport," Hedges wrote.

Macabee's reply: the bombers made them do it.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 19 December 2004 02:08 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There are no accusations, both yourself and phoni seem unable to view Israel through a critical lense. Example being; phoni would not admit that Israel has a mob or a vicious spy network, or your failure to see how unjust Sharon's/Israel's actions are against Palestinian plight.

Speaking out against abuses is not inciting hate, nor is it including a stereotype upon a whole nation or peoples.

I do not take anything said in truth about Israel's unjust actions and mob connections personally, and do not feel forced to confront the speakers as being hate mongers in order to protect my heritage. In fact, I am willing to look at it with a critical eye, nor am I remaining quiet.


quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Again with these accusations. Israel is held to the same moral standards as any other democratic nation. But it is those who negatively apply hateful streoptypes to an entire nation that should be condemmened by you. Yet you remain quitet.

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7635

posted 19 December 2004 03:33 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Speaking out against abuses is not inciting hate, nor is it including a stereotype upon a whole nation or peoples.
It is hateful to speak of specific abuses as if they characterize an entire military force and an entire nation. Criticism of Israel is legitimate providing it is proportionate to the perceived infraction. To call an entire country "brutal" or "vicious" or "immoral" in response to unrepresentative incidences is simply not appropriate.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4768

posted 19 December 2004 03:42 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
remind,
I doubt anyone would ever believe Isreal is faultless and beyond critisism. Unfortunately, if you have paid any attention to the discussions here,there is no balance whatsoever on babble regarding Isreal or the war it is fighting. The middle east forum and its regulars rarely, if ever, are critical of any player except Isreal and never express a desire to hold anyone other than Isreal accountable for its actions. This thread is a perfect example. How this thread has played out from the start is all the proof you need (and perhaps what motivates posters like Phonocidal and Macabee)
Do you believe it is wrong to point out the observable and concentrated failings of Hamas and its ilk? If not, how do you explain the lack of critisism towards Isreal's enemies and thier histories as they relate to the conflict?

From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 19 December 2004 04:26 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

I will not excuse atrocities that occur when aqn IDF soldier must engage an enemy like homicidal maniacs targeting innocents.It must be and is almost impossible for us to comprehend this. Yet I condemn and have always any atrocity commited by any soldier of a democratic nation. Thankfully Israel punishes its trangressors.

The fact that you can baldly claim "Israel Punishes Its Transgressors" when IDF soldiers that shoot unarmed children get slapped on the wrist while IDF soldiers that take pictures of themselves posing naked get harsher punishments suggests to me that your brain works on a completely different level than a normal person's. Maybe in your world, fantasyland really exists.

quote:
That said, I do try to see and understand that the Middle east is not Vancouver. That you can compare both says much to me about your understanding of geo-political events. You have much to learn.

The salient analogy, which you missed, is that Israel is attempting to use the IDF as a military occupation force as well as a police force.

That's usually a bad idea. It's an even worse idea when done in response to terrorist attacks, because military-as-police and militarization of the police often result in people doing things that they aren't experienced in doing.

Military officers do not have the skills that police officers do in apprehending suspects alive and with minimal collateral damage.

Similarly, police officers do not have the skills that military officers have with respect to handling powerful weaponry not available to even well-off civilians, with the end result that SWAT teams usually end up causing a fair number of casualties in their testosterone-fuelled desire to look good for the press.

The summary is this: The IDF should not be used as a police force in a dual role as occupier and law enforcer, yet in practice it is being used this way and it's an idiotic, dangerous and ultimately futile exercise.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 19 December 2004 04:50 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Such utter nonsense. Macabee excuses Israel's brutality and atrocities with a wave of the hand blaming suicide bombers. No doubt supporters of suicide bombers can excuse the deadly attacks witha wave of the hand blaming Israeli attrocities.

It is a two-way street. Macabee says Israeli solderis are disciplined for their abuses. Beingan apologist, he would. But what is teh truth, if any charge is ever actually brought? One example, of many:

quote:
Even before the current intifada, in Hebron in 1996, an Israeli settler fatally pistol-whipped 11-year-old Hilmi Shusha. An Israeli judge first acquitted the murderer, saying the child "died on his own as a result of emotional pressure., After numerous appeals and under pressure from the Supreme Court, which termed the act "light killing", the judge reconsidered and, as the Aqsa Intifada was raging, sentenced the killer to six months, community service and a fine of a few thousand dollars. The boy's father accused the court of issuing a "license to kill." (5) Gideon Levy of Ha,aretz eloquently described the fine as the "end-of-the-season clearance price on children's lives, referring to the findings of B'tselem, Israel's leading human rights organization, which documented dozens of similar cases in which perpetrators were either acquitted or received a slap on the wrist.(6)
src: The Nausea

In the racist state of Israel, Palestinian lives are cheap.

And then Macabee, supported by his understudy, would have us believe using the term, Israel, smears all Israelis with the same brush. On that I will agree. Because whle most Israelis are not racist and while many Israelis oppose the occupation and oppose their governments policies in the West Bank and Gaza, every atrocity committed (including:

quote:
three other children, almost the same age as Iman, were killed while sitting in their classrooms in UN-run schools in Gaza in the past few weeks. They were not caught in crossfire. They were not mistaken for adults. They were shot to death as part of Israel's overt plan to collectively punish Palestinian civilians for acts of resistance committed from their localities.
Same source as above.

) by their government is committed in their name as Israelis.

But many, many Israelis are courageous enough to speak out and condemn the racism and policies of their government unlike the sectarians here in Canada who can excuse every atrocity committed by their side as understandable without ever seeing that their rationalization for promoting hatred and violence is no different that the rationalization used by the other side to promote hatred and violence.

That, in the end, is the very nature of sectarianism: blind stupidity coupled with a unique ability to excuse every violent act by your side, no matter how reprehensible, as reasonable while seeing every similar act by the otherside as the very essence of evil.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 19 December 2004 07:41 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And then Macabee, supported by his understudy
Your constant focus on alleged Jewish conspiracies here on babble is breathtaking.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 December 2004 07:50 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Phonicidal:
It is hateful to speak of specific abuses as if they characterize an entire military force and an entire nation.

What bullshit. People generalize about the American military/Pentagon, or the Iranian revolutionary force, and lots of other countries' military quite regularly.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 19 December 2004 07:58 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Your constant focus on alleged Jewish conspiracies here on babble is breathtaking.

Your efforts to take snippets of common discussion and twist them into something sinister is pathetic and sad. I imagine you as a tired old man hanging onto his bigotry lest he find himself completely alone. Embrace humanity, Macabee. It will free and enlighten you all at the same time. The future of Israel and Judaism is secure and bright in a world where all is welcome. Give it a try.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 December 2004 08:02 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Your efforts to take snippets of common discussion and twist them into something sinister is pathetic and sad. I imagine you as a tired old man hanging onto his bigotry lest he find himself completely alone. Embrace humanity, Macabee. It will free and enlighten you all at the same time. The future of Israel and Judaism is secure and bright in a world where all is welcome. Give it a try.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


Wing dont you worry your fool head over me. Worry better about yourself that in your darkness you cant even admit to yourself that you engage in putting forward conspiracy notions with no proof other than bizarre assumptions. Hmm let's see phonicicdal supports Israel and Hey wait a minute so does Macabee...well no question then phonicidal MUST be a stooge of Macabbe's. Poor poor Wingy!!!

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 December 2004 08:42 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And then Macabee, supported by his understudy,

WingNut, Macabee's already explained that he and Phonicidal are not affiliated with each other. He's got a point, that just because they agree doesn't mean they're any more linked than, say, you and me, or you and Cueball or anyone else.

There's a lot to debate and argue about beyond whether or not Phonicidal and Macabee are friends who are tag-teaming. And even if they were, people are allowed to tell their friends about babble.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4768

posted 19 December 2004 08:53 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is a two-way street
Exactly!

From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 19 December 2004 09:41 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There's a lot to debate and argue about beyond whether or not Phonicidal and Macabee are friends who are tag-teaming. And even if they were, people are allowed to tell their friends about babble.

I am sorry that you responded to this Michelle. The issue is not Macabee's and Phonocidal's relationship nor any other.

Macabee has outright accused me of hating all Israelis. And you are silent. He has insinuated I am antisemitic. And you are silent. I make an off-the-cuff remark about two people echoing each other's argument and you are addressing me?

Come on, you have been here too long. Macabee is unable to provide a logical defense of Israel's raicst policies and occupation and his one and only trick is to find some unrelated issue and capitalize on it to derail the discussion and turn himself into the injured party. We have heard of his relatives, pets and boyhood memories. And now you are falling for it.

Do you agree I am suggesting there is conspiracy by remark?

If not, then Macabee is making an unjustified and outright false and mean spirited accusation that I am antisemetic and you should use your authorty to ban him.

He has been getting away with these hateful and hurtful accusations for far too long. When will the moderators have the guts to act?

And before you respond, yes, I have accused Macabee of tolerating racism. But I have not accused him of being a racist.Nevertheless he routinely accuses me of hate and antisemitism. I think it is time it was stopped as I have never, not once, advocated the hate of anyone.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7635

posted 19 December 2004 11:04 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
What bullshit. People generalize about the American military/Pentagon, or the Iranian revolutionary force, and lots of other countries' military quite regularly.
And, they shouldn't make such generalizations based on a few isolated incidents. But, you're right. People do do that all the time. Especially on babble. But, for some reason I see a lot more criticism of America and Israel than Iran.

Aren't moderators supposed to be, um, moderate?


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7635

posted 19 December 2004 11:20 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Macabee is making an unjustified and outright false and mean spirited accusation that I am antisemetic and you should use your authorty to ban him....

And before you respond, yes, I have accused Macabee of tolerating racism. But I have not accused him of being a racist.Nevertheless he routinely accuses me of hate and antisemitism. I think it is time it was stopped as I have never, not once, advocated the hate of anyone.


Boo f'n hoo!

You accused me of being "racist", of preaching "nazi-like racism", and of using a "racist manner arguing racial superiority". All of which was entirely false and based on your misunderstanding, or refusal to understand, my comments.

You've also spoken of the "racist state of Israel", which is the clear characterization of an entire nation, without reference to any particular policy, as racist.

Looks like you're perfectly happy to dish it out, but can't take the heat when the tables turn (did I mix enough metaphors there?).

Can we get back on topic please? If every thread involving Israel is just going to turn into a dumping ground for the repetition of unfounded hostility, instead of the matter at hand, how is anybody supposed to have a civilized discussion around here?


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 19 December 2004 11:32 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You accused me of being "racist", of preaching "nazi-like racism", and of using a "racist manner arguing racial superiority". All of which was entirely false and based on your misunderstanding, or refusal to understand, my comments.
If the shoe fits, wear it. You began a thread to cheer the inevitable deaths of inncocent Palestinians. How disgusting is that?

And in case you missed my response to your lies and dishonesty, here it is again:

quote:
You are a liar, intellectually dishonest and disingenuous. Let's begin with the lie. I never invoked the memory of the holocaust. You did. You used a quote that was intended to answer a question in a flippant and racist manner arguing racial superiority. I argued the quote is not unlike one a person would expect to hear a half-century ago by race supremacists. I did not mention the holocaust. You chose to hide your racism behind it.

You are intellectually dishonest as you claim I should read a quote in context when you yourself quoted it out of context (presumably). In what context, to the question asked, does it fit?


You are disingenous as you claim I should become acquainted with the context when the link you posted is to a book store where the text is not available to learn the context.


I may indeed be stupid or mentally ill. But you are still a racist and not even courageous enough to be honest about it.


quote:
You've also spoken of the "racist state of Israel", which is the clear characterization of an entire nation, without reference to any particular policy, as racist.

Only in your twisted mind. The state is racist as was South Africa. That doesn't mean everyone in South Africa was racist. Of course I wouldn't have to explain that if you and Macabee had any intellectual integrity.

quote:
Can we get back on topic please?

What is the topic? Oh, yeah,
quote:
I am not a fan of innocent people getting killed. But,
you will make exceptions if they are Palestinian. Got it. And you say youare not racist. I did say you are a liar, right?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7635

posted 19 December 2004 11:54 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
You began a thread to cheer the inevitable deaths of inncocent Palestinians.
No, I started it to discuss the benefits of terrorists killing other terrorists. I don't want to see any innocent people get killed.
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
The state is racist as was South Africa.
No, South Africa was not racist. The Apartheid policy was. And, your comparisson of the two should insult any right minded opponent of true Apartheid. For example, many Jews left South Africa because they refused to benefit from a racist policy.
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
I did say you are a liar, right?
Weren't you just whining a minute ago about personal attacks? Get real! If you don't want to be attacked on babble, you ought not attack others. And if you continue to do so, then the moderators really should do something about your violations.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 20 December 2004 08:55 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No, I started it to discuss the benefits of terrorists killing other terrorists. I don't want to see any innocent people get killed.

There it is again. The argument that there are "benefits" to killing.

You're not getting the hang of this, are you, Phonicidal.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 20 December 2004 09:24 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And let's remember how he began this thread, skdadl, "I am not a fan of innocent people getting killed. But ..." Just like "I'm not racist but ..."

And then he wants to say, in his usual dishonest fashion, that what he said isn't what he meant. Bullshit. He said what he meant.

quote:
No, South Africa was not racist. The Apartheid policy was. And, your comparisson of the two should insult any right minded opponent of true Apartheid. For example, many Jews left South Africa because they refused to benefit from a racist policy.

Yes, South Africa was racist. Apartheid was the policy expression of that racism. Many people left South Africa because they opposed the Apartheid policies. As for your ridiculous accusation about opponents of Apartheid being insulted,
quote:
Nobel Laureate Bishop Tutu spoke last month at a conference in Boston. Excerpts:

"In our struggle against apartheid, the great supporters were Jews. They almost instinctively had to be on the side of the disenfranchised, of the voiceless, fighting injustice, oppression and evil ... I am patron of a Holocaust centre in South Africa. I believe Israel has a right to secure borders ...

"I have been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us blacks in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about.

"On one of my visits to the Holy Land ... I thought of the desire of Israelis for security. But what of the Palestinians who have lost their land and homes? ...

"My heart aches. Why are our memories so short? Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history so soon? Have they turned their backs on their profound and noble religious traditions? Have they forgotten that God cares deeply about the downtrodden?

"Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured. The military action of recent days, I predict with certainty, will not provide the security and peace Israelis want; it will only intensify the hatred ...

"The Israeli government is placed on a pedestal, and to criticize it is to be immediately dubbed anti-Semitic, as if the Palestinians were not Semitic. I am not even anti-white, despite the madness of that group ... people are scared in this country (the U.S.) to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful, very powerful. Well, so what? For goodness sake, this is God's world! We live in a moral universe."

src: http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0516-01.htm



If Bishop Tutu is not insulted, I can accept that.

quote:
Weren't you just whining a minute ago about personal attacks?

No. I was responding to the moderator. I am quite happy to deal with hate mongers like you on my own.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 December 2004 10:28 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Phonicidal:
Aren't moderators supposed to be, um, moderate?

Cry me a river, Phonicidal.

In other news, this thread is long and acrimonious and not really on topic anymore, whatever the topic was. So I'm closing it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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