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Author Topic: Palestinian incitement in text books
Zaklamont
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posted 09 December 2004 01:54 AM      Profile for Zaklamont        Edit/Delete Post
The following article (with an introduction) taken from MidEastWebDialog, an Israeli peace promotion Yahoo Newsgroup notes that a study by the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information (IPCRI) of Palestinian school textbooks gives the impression that Israel should not exist. The Center also plans a study of Israeli school textbooks to see in what way information may block peace efforts with Palestinians, in terms of child education.

==========
Hi,
As some of you will remember, we had quite a discussion on this list about
incitement in Palestinian texts and claims of incitement in Israeli texts
made by Len Traubman in his article.

IPCRI has just issued their report regarding Palestinian texts. It is
especially valuable because unlike CMIP, Palestinian Media Watch and
similar groups, IPCRI is a dialog NGO composed of Israelis and
Palestinians. They are not out to demonize the Palestinians and we can
trust that their work is as objective as possible. It is discouraging
because IPCRI too found serious problems in Palestinian texts.

The press release says:
"Palestinian text books have confused messages and it is not difficult to
come to the understanding that the main political theme imparted to the
students is that Israel should not exist and that is essentially the
Palestinian goal. "

It will be interesting to see their report on Israeli texts.

I don't think that the whole problem begins and ends with texts. These may
be easiest to study, but attitudes are absorbed in the mosque or synagogue,
from the media, in verbal lessons the teachers might give, in after school
activities of scouting movements, at home and from friends. While it is
true that kids can also learn to hate at home, that is no excuse for
allowing the teaching of hate in the school system.

SvS,
Amii


Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information
IPCRI ISSUES REPORT ON RECOMMENDATIONS FOR REFORMS IN PALESTINIAN TEXT
BOOKS

[For report: www.ipcri.org/files/paltextrecs.pdf ]

The IPCRI Strategic Affairs Unit together with the Peace Education
department are pleased to announce the issuing of a new report on
Recommendations for Reforms in Palestinian Text Books. The report is based
on the assumption that the Palestinian National movement and its Government
in the West Bank and Gaza, the Palestinian Authority, have made a strategic
decision to make peace with the State of Israel. Text books issued by
governments are an authoritative source to determine the values that any
society lives by. Until now, the Palestinian Authority text books have not
provided evidence that the Palestinian Authority has been implementing a
policy of peace making.

Palestinian text books have confused messages and it is not difficult to
come to the understanding that the main political theme imparted to the
students is that Israel should not exist and that is essentially the
Palestinian goal. Assuming that this is not the political message that the
Palestinian Authority adheres to, there is a need to make real revisions
and
amendments in the Palestinian text books. If this assumption is correct,
then the recommendations in this paper provide some solid suggestions of
what could be done immediately by the Palestinian Ministry of Education to
rectify the confusion and to strengthen the position of the Ministry and of
the entire Palestinian Authority in the eyes of the international
community.

It should be noted that IPCRI is planning to issue a parallel report on
needed reform in Israeli Text Books.

Gershon Baskin, Ph.D.
Co-Director, IPCRI
P.O. Box 9321, Jerusalem 91092
Tel: 972-2-676-9460 Fax: 972-2-676-8011
gershon@i...
www.ipcri.org


From: Ottawa Ontario | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 December 2004 11:33 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So concerns expressed by those here who brought this matter to the attention of babble in the past seems validated. Hopefully with a change in PA leadership this will be addressed
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 December 2004 12:02 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, such concerns have often been expressed here, and, I think, never challenged as information, although the spin put on the information may well have been.

A question: I'm having trouble with that file, so could someone who has read it tell me: the expression "Palestinian textbooks" is, I understand, a bit of a misnomer, since the Palestinians have not so far been producing their own textbooks -- books are apparently being brought in from, eg, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. I wish I could remember my source (NYReview of Books?), but it explained, reasonably enough, I thought, that the nature and quality of these imported books varied widely and wildly, that the PA knew and was concerned about these problems, but was having trouble organizing a thoroughgoing revision of all texts.

Does that report address these predictable problems?


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scooter
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posted 09 December 2004 04:58 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The PQ are using the same tactic in their educational system. Many of the text books used in Quebec are inaccurate and biased.

I love the latest clap-trap from the PQ, "95% of English Canada supports the USA war in Iraq".


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 December 2004 08:29 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No follow-up to my question?
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WingNut
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posted 10 December 2004 09:32 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course not skdadl as your question doesn't play into the bigotry so enjoyed by the Israeli lobby.

I noticed this sentence all alone at the end: "It should be noted that IPCRI is planning to issue a parallel report on
needed reform in Israeli Text Books."

Is this not required as little Israeli Jewish boys and girls are taught there is no Palestinian people and that God gave the land to Jews and the land God gave them includes all of the West Bank and much, much more?

quote:
It seems that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon considers the concept "occupation" to be negative and immoral. This is not the Torah stand. It is the duty of the Jewish people to conquer the Land of Israel, the inheritance that the Creator bequeathed to His chosen nation, in order to settle it in its entirety.

Source

The Israeli lobby employs this incredible double-standard that is not challenged often enough. Why, if they would practice what they preach for Palestinians, peace would soon be in sight.


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lagatta
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posted 10 December 2004 09:53 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
C'est quoi ça????

"The PQ are using the same tactic in their educational system. Many of the text books used in Quebec are inaccurate and biased.

I love the latest clap-trap from the PQ, "95% of English Canada supports the USA war in Iraq"."
------
The PQ is not in power, and weren't in power when this Québec-bashing post was written.

Many serious books on pedagogy and historiography have been written on how children are taught the same historical events in different countries and societies, and which events are given more importance. That is UNIVERSAL. That means English Canadian (scooter's term) textbooks have a viewpoint or bias as well.

I know people who work writing and editing schoolbooks, and have been involved in that process myself - I was specifically involved in finding documentation on the labour and social movements (feminism, community groups, etc) and on making the texts more inclusive of cultural communities. I find scooter's post deeply insulting.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 December 2004 09:55 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Me too. I should have said that sooner. Sorry, lagatta -- no question.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 10 December 2004 05:22 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

I noticed this sentence all alone at the end: "It should be noted that IPCRI is planning to issue a parallel report on
needed reform in Israeli Text Books."

Is this not required as little Israeli Jewish boys and girls are taught there is no Palestinian people and that God gave the land to Jews and the land God gave them includes all of the West Bank and much, much more?

Source

The Israeli lobby employs this incredible double-standard that is not challenged often enough. Why, if they would practice what they preach for Palestinians, peace would soon be in sight.


I would encourage such a study of Israeli text books. BTW Wingnut do you have any actual proof to that nasty little accusation agaist the Israeli education system or is it your typical bullshitting? Please provide at least some proof. Thanks I wont hold my breath.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 December 2004 05:32 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, c'mon, Mac: Zaklamont started this thread, and he gave many of us hope that he actually had the goods to hand, good descriptions of the kinds of textbooks that either or both nations were using.

We're not the experts; he is. You can't ask mere readers to come up with the evidence to support someone else's claims -- or implications.

If you know what either Palestinian textbooks or Israeli textbooks are like, please tell us. We know that the Palestinians have had trouble producing any of their own. Actually, we know that Palestinian children have had trouble just getting to school much of the time.

But if you can add any solid data to the gossip we often run on, I'm sure everyone here would be in your debt.


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Hinterland
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posted 10 December 2004 05:34 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
love the latest clap-trap from the PQ, "95% of English Canada supports the USA war in Iraq".

I think Scooter is referring to a snippet on CBC-Radio I heard this week about the PQ and its attempt to bring a more inclusive face to Québec sovereignty by enlisting a non-"pure laine" Québécois (I forget who it was) who was then critisised for spreading disinformation with the 95% thing. I meant to follow up, but then forgot. That has nothing to do with text books used in Québec.

[ 10 December 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


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Macabee
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posted 11 December 2004 10:13 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Oh, c'mon, Mac: Zaklamont started this thread, and he gave many of us hope that he actually had the goods to hand, good descriptions of the kinds of textbooks that either or both nations were using.

We're not the experts; he is. You can't ask mere readers to come up with the evidence to support someone else's claims -- or implications.

If you know what either Palestinian textbooks or Israeli textbooks are like, please tell us. We know that the Palestinians have had trouble producing any of their own. Actually, we know that Palestinian children have had trouble just getting to school much of the time.

But if you can add any solid data to the gossip we often run on, I'm sure everyone here would be in your debt.


It was Wingnut that made the accusation it is he that must either give proof or retract , It is silly to ask me to prove Wingy's inane thesis.

Secondly I see nothing in Zaklamont's post that suggests he has the "goods". He is speculating that the survey "may" find something but to date no one has brought any proof forward. Where do you see anythuing in his post that suggests otherwise?


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 December 2004 10:16 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, Mac, what you're saying is that nobody in this thread, including the person who started it, knows what s/he is talking about? Hee.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 11 December 2004 10:49 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
So, Mac, what you're saying is that nobody in this thread, including the person who started it, knows what s/he is talking about? Hee.
Frankly, I dont know what they know. All Im saying is show me some proof to your allegations. Is that too much to ask Skdadl?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 December 2004 10:50 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And you're putting that question to Zaklamont, I take it?
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WingNut
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posted 11 December 2004 10:56 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I will provide proof Macabee later today when I have more time. In anticipation of that, you can prepare your usual obfuscation and lies with regard to Israeli racism and double-standards. Perhpas you can find me the map that is standard in most Israeli schools showing Palestine on it.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 December 2004 12:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, Mac, what you're saying is that nobody in this thread, including the person who started it, knows what s/he is talking about? Hee.

I think that he is suggesting that until know all of the allegations about bias in Palestinian text books have been based on pure prejudice and rumour, and NOW, after 10 years campaign attacking the nascent Palestinian educational system, someone may have found some basis for the original charge.

It is by way of a long circumlocution an appology for the previous 10 years of unproved and baseless incrimination.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 11 December 2004 01:03 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would urge people to go to the www.ipcri.org website, where there is, in fact, a 2004 PDF detailing good and bad points in Israeli textbooks.

From it, I note:

quote:
- Map on p. 65: “Map of the Land of Israel at the beginning
of the 19th century”. Not a single Arab settlement is
indicated.

and
quote:
2) Map on p. 47: No Arab villages are indicated in the
mountain region.

and
quote:
3) The map on p. 108 does not indicate Arab settlements, as
if they disappeared from the map on p. 78. (See also the map
on p. 121 which does not indicate Arab settlements).

and
quote:
Name of Book: “Our city of Jerusalem” – Workbook published by Am Oved,
1993
The book is tendentious and unbalanced. Sometimes the three religions are
mentioned, but there is no balance between them, and the tendency is to favor
Judaism and the Jews in Jerusalem. The pluralistic aspect of the city is ignored, while
its Jewish character is emphasized. No attention is devoted to the status of the Arabs
in the city nor to their historical and religious attachment to it. Lacking as well are the
elements of cooperation, a shared destiny, and an egalitarian and tolerant attitude.

and
quote:
p. 43: The settlement of the coastal plain. Very little
attention is given to the Arab population who lived
in the area, and the book only deals with the
purchase of land from people who agreed to sell. No
mention is made of removal of the Arabs.

and finally
quote:
p. 21: A map without the borders of the West Bank
and the Gaza Strip. Also, only the cities of Haifa, Tel
Aviv, Jerusalem, Be’er Sheva and Eilat are included.
Shfrar’am, Gaza, etc. are not indicated.

Presented for the edification of those who can't be arsed to find out for themselves if some Israeli textbooks ignore the Arab/Palestinian presence in the region.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 11 December 2004 02:56 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sadly, there are some notable defects in Israel. Yet we soldier on to our manif... oh, wrong talking point.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 11 December 2004 07:09 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes I read the report. Thank you Eroused.

There are some problamatic areas that need change, revision or outright excision. That said on a whole the report is rather positive of the efforts made by the Israeli educational system.

Hopefully the changes will be forthcomiong making the system one of the best in the world.


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WingNut
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posted 11 December 2004 09:00 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just one example, many to follow:

quote:

Cohen also researched 1,700 Israeli children's books published after 1967.
He found that 520 of the books contained humiliating, negative
descriptions of Palestinians. He also took pains to break down the
descriptions:
Sixty six percent of the 520 books refer to Arabs as violent; 52 percent
as evil; 37 percent as liars; 31 percent as greedy; 28 percent as
two-faced; 27 percent as traitors, etc.

Cohen points out that the authors of these children’s books effectively
instill hatred toward Arabs by means of stripping them of their human
nature and classifying them in another category. In a sampling of 86
books, Cohen counted the following descriptions used to dehumanize Arabs:
Murderer was used 21 times; snake, 6 times; dirty, 9 times; vicious
animal, 17 times; bloodthirsty, 21 times; warmonger, 17 times; killer, 13
times; believer in myths, 9 times; and a camel's hump, 2 times.


Cohen's study concludes that such descriptions of Arabs are part and
parcel of convictions and a culture rampant in Hebrew literature and
history books. He writes that Israeli authors and writers confess to
deliberately portraying the Arab character in this way, particularly to
their younger audience, in order to influence their outlook early on so as
to prepare them to deal with Arabs.



Source

Have you begun minimizing Israeli racism yet, today, Macabee?

[ 11 December 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


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aRoused
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posted 12 December 2004 08:17 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So much pap for Macabee to spout, so little time. So many platitudes on the talking point roster, and such little bandwidth to broadcast them in.

It must be a sad little existence, being a wannabe spin-doctor.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 12 December 2004 10:48 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe we have it all wrong aroused. Maybe we should adopt his methods. For example, if he could find a single Palestinian text book suggesting Jews should be driven into the sea, I mean, supposing such a book ever really did exist, then the answer would be: "Yes, sadly, there is still work to be done, but on the whole teh Palestinian educational system is among the best in the world among oppressed people under military occupation.

That sort of minimalization and spin could work for so many things. I seen a wonderful example in Friday's London Free Press where a spokesperson for a white supremacist organization said since none of his memebers have been charged with a hate crime, they can't be a hate group and questioned the existence of a publically funded anti-hate organization in a city where haye groups, therefore, do not exist.

See the genius? Minimalize and dismiss.


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Macabee
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posted 12 December 2004 01:27 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As a result of your ridiculous allegations attempting to paint the Israeli education system as "racist" I have emailed the author of this study appending your posts and the link for his review. Hopefully we can get an objective response from him.

I never stated there were not problems. I reject your usual attempts at demonizing and villifying Israelis.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 12 December 2004 01:53 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Villifying Israelis? You aren't an Israeli, Mac, are you?

Given its topic and first post, this thread must be about villifying and demonizing Palestinians, as they have been accused of doing what the Israeli schools have shown to be doing.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 12 December 2004 02:08 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Maybe we have it all wrong aroused. Maybe we should adopt his methods. For example, if he could find a single Palestinian text book suggesting Jews should be driven into the sea, I mean, supposing such a book ever really did exist, then the answer would be: "Yes, sadly, there is still work to be done, but on the whole teh Palestinian educational system is among the best in the world among oppressed people under military occupation.

Is anti-Semitism taught in Palestinian schools?
You can PM me with the answer.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 12 December 2004 02:12 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
As a result of your ridiculous allegations attempting to paint the Israeli education system as "racist"

Are you denying the direct paste from the same website you so fatuously loved to praise because they went over all the Palestinian textbooks, only they also went over all the Israeli textbooks, too?

Kinda interesting you glossed over that part. You claim to be "fair and balanced" (snicker, hyuk hyuk hee hee) but at every instance, every junction, whenever there is a rough parity in the behavior of Palestinians and Israelis, you make excuse after excuse after prevarication after apology for the Israelis and go on to trash the Palestinians.

Save it, buddy.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 12 December 2004 02:33 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well here comes "me-too Doc Cponway". You can always count on Doc with a "me-too" response when it comes to villifying Israel cant you "me-too"?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 12 December 2004 04:56 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Have you sunk so far that all you can do is resort to grade-school insults? Christ, Macabee, for someone who has a blind spot but insists he doesn't have one you manage to plumb new depths of sheer blockheadedness every day.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 12 December 2004 05:06 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I never stated there were not problems. I reject your usual attempts at demonizing and villifying Israelis.

If the state is racist so must be the educational system, no?

And as a reminder, two people living nearby in the West Bank, one Jewish one not, do not enjoy the same rights, right? The Jew is a citizen and the Palestinian is not? Correct?

That is a racist state, isn't it?

How is identifying a state for what is demonizing or villifying? Why are you less concerned and more willing to be tolerant of Israeli text books that erase Palestine and that people's history than Palestinian text books that erase Israel?

Why Macabee?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 12 December 2004 08:17 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

If the state is racist so must be the educational system, no?


Yes, problem is of course Israel is NOT a racist state. Well in your mind of course it must be. Are their problems with racism in Israel? Sadly so. As there are similar problems with racism in virtually every democratic country. Difference is that in free and democratic societies citizens work to change attitudes try to eradicate racism. That is what Israel does. Do we see the same from other neighboring states in the Middle East? NO. Indeed Jews cant even live in many of them.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 12 December 2004 08:44 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As there are similar problems with racism in virtually every democratic country.

Answer me this:

If Isreal is so democratic, why dosen't it have a constitution?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 12 December 2004 08:56 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes, problem is of course Israel is NOT a racist state.

If two people live side-by-side and only one of those people have citizenship based on ethnicity, is that a racist state?

You can say it is not, but you are fooling only your own conscience.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 December 2004 08:23 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Answer me this:

If Isreal is so democratic, why dosen't it have a constitution?



Answer me this how old was Canada before it got its own constitution?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 December 2004 08:25 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

If two people live side-by-side and only one of those people have citizenship based on ethnicity, is that a racist state?

You can say it is not, but you are fooling only your own conscience.


And of course once there is a Palestinian state recognized by world governements this will be resolved. How can Israel grant Israeli citizenship to an area that is not Israel?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 December 2004 09:03 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
And of course once there is a Palestinian state recognized by world governements this will be resolved. How can Israel grant Israeli citizenship to an area that is not Israel?

If it's "not Israel", then why have Israeli troops occupied the land for nearly 40 years, and why have successive Israeli governments been trying to change the demographic character of the Occupied Territories through intensive settlement of those areas in order to effectively amalgamate, piecemeal, the Occupied Territories into Israel proper?

The second, incidentally, would be in violation of the Geneva Convention if Israel were in a technical state of war with Jordan.

Israel is in a de facto state of war with the Palestinian Arabs, else why the "security" barrier, the checkpoints, the restricted-access roads to settlements, and so on?

And would you just refresh my mind - which country's law applies to the settlers in the Occupied Territories?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 13 December 2004 10:37 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And of course once there is a Palestinian state recognized by world governements this will be resolved. How can Israel grant Israeli citizenship to an area that is not Israel?
How did they manage under such circumstances then to give Jews in the West Bank and Gaza citzenship?

You are a sad, old, sick joke Macabee.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 December 2004 10:37 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well in reality the occupied territories were occupied as a result of the 1967 war. It belonged to Jordan. There is much politics here and history which needs to be negotiated. Arafat had his chance and chose violence instead of statehood. Hopefully Mohammed Abbas will lead the Palestinian people to a state of their own
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 13 December 2004 10:43 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, yes, it is Arafat all by his lonesome. Attending the school of The Butcher Sharon Talking Points are we? The continued settlement on Palestinian land, the collective punishments, the torched earth policy all had nothing to do with it.


And you even to continue to ignore the central question of official Israeli racism such as marriage laws, segregation and different citizenship rights based on ethnicity.

Think of what you are defending macabee and ask if you would not be right at home as Good Ol' Boy in Alabama 40 years ago.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 December 2004 10:43 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
How did they manage under such circumstances then to give Jews in the West Bank and Gaza citzenship?

You are a sad, old, sick joke Macabee.


They happened to already have Israeli citizenship prior to locating in the West bank.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 13 December 2004 10:45 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Once again, which country's laws apply in the Occupied Territories?
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 December 2004 10:45 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Ah, yes, it is Arafat all by his lonesome. Attending the school of The Butcher Sharon Talking Points are we? The continued settlement on Palestinian land, the collective punishments, the torched earth policy all had nothing to do with it.


And you even to continue to ignore the central question of official Israeli racism such as marriage laws, segregation and different citizenship rights based on ethnicity.

Think of what you are defending macabee and ask if you would not be right at home as Good Ol' Boy in Alabama 40 years ago.



Actuall Wing given your clear animosity (and yes outright hatred) of Israel and Israelis I would argue that you would have a much greater level of commfort there. Unlike you I hate no one.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 December 2004 10:46 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:
Once again, which country's laws apply in the Occupied Territories?

If Im not mistaken the PA has legal control, however martial law probably applies overall.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 13 December 2004 11:16 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You might want to tell that to the settlers in the Occupied Territories..
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 December 2004 11:40 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:
You might want to tell that to the settlers in the Occupied Territories..
Oh I think they know that martial law applies.

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Cueball
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posted 13 December 2004 12:14 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well in reality the occupied territories were occupied as a result of the 1967 war. It belonged to Jordan. There is much politics here and history which needs to be negotiated. Arafat had his chance and chose violence instead of statehood. Hopefully Mohammed Abbas will lead the Palestinian people to a state of their own

It did not belong to Jordan. Even Israel never recognized Jordan' ananexation of the West Bank in the 1948 war. Only Pakistan and Great Britain recognized Jordan's soveriengty. The UN nor any Arab country ever recognized the annexation.

It does you no good to play fast and loose with the truth. It is typical of the hypocrisy of the zionist ideology that in one argument they will claim that they never recognized Jordan's soveriengty and then in the next argument claim that the West Bank is part of Jordan.

Picking and choosing your 'facts' to suit whatever ever argument you happen to making on daily basis, makes you look like a clown.

[ 13 December 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 13 December 2004 12:19 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
It did not belong to Jordan. Even Israel never recognized Jordan' ananexation of the West Bank in the 1948 war. Only Pakistan and Great Britain recognized Jordan's soveriengty. The UN nor any Arab country ever recognized the annexation.


Cueball as normal you bring to the forefront a rinkle either I did not know or had not thought of.

So who did the OT "belong" to before '67? I always read that it was Jordan. If what you write is true then I wonder whose land it was?


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 December 2004 12:31 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It belongs to the people who live on it.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 13 December 2004 12:35 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Very true. But according to some international power and I am not sure who to believe anymore. Land belongs to usually a national identity.

So not to be disrespectful. It seems that the OT have been occupied since 1948 not 1967. The difference is that their have been 2 different occupiers Jordan and then Israel. Since if Israel occupied the land after 1967, and Jordan did not rule or govern the land from 1948 to 1967 they would also be occupiers.

So whose land was it before the 2 sets of occupiers.

I know that there was not a Palestinian state then.

Cueball you have peaked my interest in this little piece of information because it is an angle that I am sure most have not thought of. And it is a tidbit of information that might just be the true road to peace.

[ 13 December 2004: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 13 December 2004 01:02 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actuall Wing given your clear animosity (and yes outright hatred) of Israel and Israelis I would argue that you would have a much greater level of commfort there. Unlike you I hate no one.

Without a defence for the racist and segregationist policies of Israel, you instead launch an unjustified personal attack. Predictable and pathetic.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 December 2004 01:22 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
If Im not mistaken the PA has legal control, however martial law probably applies overall.

Really?

So, tell me, do settlers have to apply to military courts for civil torts and submit to military justice for crimes they commit?

And whose military law?

And if the PA has legal sovereignty, why do settlers never become adjudicated under PA courts of law if they commit crimes - such as, oh, murdering Palestinian civilians...?

[ 13 December 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 December 2004 03:49 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So not to be disrespectful. It seems that the OT have been occupied since 1948 not 1967. The difference is that their have been 2 different occupiers Jordan and then Israel. Since if Israel occupied the land after 1967, and Jordan did not rule or govern the land from 1948 to 1967 they would also be occupiers.


In the strictest sense of the word the Occupied Territories have been occupied by four powers during the period 1900 to the present, the Israelis, the Jordanians, the British and the Ottomans.

It is also worthy to note the the brief period of Hashemite rule of the OT and, in fact Jordan itself, are a direct result of the deals that were struck by the British with the Hashmites, whom draw their liniage from the Kingdom of the Hedjaz formed along the west coast of the Arabian peninsula.* The Hashemites being the chief WW1 Arab British ally they were supported in liu of Assyrian Arabs, not only to rule Jordan, but also Syria under crown prince Faisal, the Syrian deal fell through however when another (much more powerful British ally, in the form of France) objected, and demanded Lebanon and Damascus. The slighted Faisal was appeased when he was offered to rule over Iraq from Baghdad, a position from which he was ousted by Syrian Nationalists and communists in 1958.

As for a solution to the present crisis and the occupation, Jordan gave up its claim to the West Bank in 1987, and solved the problem of its responsibility for the ever rebelious Palestinians. This was the moment that the international community recognized that it was the PLO that was the legitimate spokes-organization for the Palestinian people, and that naturally soveignty rightly devolved to the Palestinian people under terms that should be negotiated by the PLO under the leadership of Yasser Arafat.

The solution, in other words is clear, and has been established for a long time. What is not clear is that the international community is willing to enforce what is obvious to all: that the land known today as the occupied territories belongs to the Palestinians.

*There is also some credibility given by some Israeli historians to the thory that the Jordanians had a tacit deal with Israel to divide the zone in 1948. This thesis is supported on the prima facie evidence that neither the Jordanians nor the Israelis ever seriously engaged during the 48 war, a serious military deficit for Arab side, since other than the local militias, the Jordanian army was the only regional regular army. There was no offensive action on the Jordanians part, other than an occupation of the West Bank, a zone Israel did not contest.

Israeli Historians ask: What Really Happened Fifty Years Ago?

quote:
The new historians argue that annihilation was impossible because of Jewish superiority in two crucial areas, diplomacy and military preparedness.4 The Jewish community had carried the day in diplomatic maneuvering in the United Nations and by accurately analyzing the balance of military power on the ground. An unwritten agreement between the Jewish Agency and the Arab Legion, the strongest Arab force in the area, practically guaranteed that the battle-ready Jewish forces would prevail.


Illlan Pappe (definitely a great alternative documetn to read.)

This tacit alliance/friendship with the Jordanian rulers, seems even to have manifested itself, even in 1967, when Israel thought it could prevail diplomatically upon Jordan to stay out of the war after Israel attacked Egypt.

[ 13 December 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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