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Author Topic: Israeli terrorist jailed
Macabee
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posted 06 December 2004 01:49 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Member of Jewish terrorist organization jailed for 8 years
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 December 2004 01:52 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
An investigation proved that the weapons had been used to kill Palestinians. Eight people were arrested based on Dvir's testimony, most of whom were subsequently released.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 December 2004 01:58 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Agree. I would like to find out more about that investigation. But atleast one terrorist is behind bars!
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 December 2004 08:23 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can someone please provide a link to show his family's house being destroyed by IDF bulldozers?
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Macabee
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posted 06 December 2004 10:57 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks Al. You continue to demonstarte ypour bias and inability to recognize anything Israel does as positive.

I sincerely hope that those who consider themselves pro-Palestinian are more open-minded and sensitive than you.


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No Yards
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posted 06 December 2004 11:08 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's great that they put a terrorist behind bars for up to 8 years ... just goes to show what a police force can do when it isn't being undermined and having its infrastructure bombed out from under it.

I wonder though, shouldn't there be some kind of "collective punishmnt" to Iraelis for the activities of this terrorist? And are they going to change the name of the "security wall" to the "secutiy one-way mirror"?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 06 December 2004 11:27 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To play the part of the right-wing law-and-order guy, why the hell didn't they lock the guy up for twenty years?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 December 2004 11:34 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doc et al ...and you wonder why I believe that you are absoluetly biased in anything to do with Israel .
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No Yards
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posted 06 December 2004 11:38 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry we can't all be completely objective like yourself Mac.

Forgive the figure of speech, but all your objectivity on the Israeli / Palestinian conflct must be a heavy cross to bear.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
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posted 06 December 2004 11:55 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
This game of "Bait the Jew" gets rather tiresome.
A heavy cross to bear indeed.

From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 07 December 2004 12:25 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, Israel puts one murdering scum criminal in jail, whoop-de-fucking-do! He should instead have worn an IDF uniform and received a medal for bravery!

When Israel pulls out of the occupied territories, fully and without a scorched earth / Palestinian policy of withdrawl, then Mishei can take all the bows for Israel he wants, and I will be right there applauding him and Israel ... until then, just who is baitig who?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 07 December 2004 12:45 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Doc et al ...and you wonder why I believe that you are absoluetly biased in anything to do with Israel .

Seriously. Why not twenty years? I don't buy the "he cooperated, so we need to play all nicey." Isn't terrorism one of the most dangerous threats to democracies, and shouldn't it be punished accordingly?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 07 December 2004 01:33 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Didn't the Russians put away a Chechyn suicide bomber, who renegede on her assignment, confessed and co-operated for 20 years?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
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posted 07 December 2004 01:47 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
" Isn't terrorism one of the most dangerous threats to democracies, and shouldn't it be punished accordingly?

Although it would not surprise me when the reaction to terrorism often is more of a danger to democracy then the actual terrorist act. In this case they seem to have handled it more like a criminal case. If they had handled Palistinian terrorists the same way Jenin would still be standing.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 07 December 2004 03:28 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Marawan Barghouti who was convicted as a 'Terrorist' by an Israeli court and given five consecutive life sentences, (even though the jurists who convicted him admitted that there was no way they could directly link him to the acts, outside of giving infalmatory speeches) would argue, as he did in his case, that Israel has no jurisdiction to prosecute people in Jenin.

Which reminds me wasn't one of the justifications for the Iraeli re-occupation of the West Bank that PA courts were not being tough enough on Palestinian "terrorists," giving them obscenely light sentences and the like.

And what of this, from the article:

quote:
An investigation proved that the weapons had been used to kill Palestinians. Eight people were arrested based on Dvir's testimony, most of whom were subsequently released.

[ 07 December 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 07 December 2004 08:42 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Didn't the Russians put away a Chechyn suicide bomber, who renegede on her assignment, confessed and co-operated for 20 years?
Thankfully Israel is not Russia. Perhaps we should all adopt the Russian justice system. Im sure all here would advocate for that.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 07 December 2004 08:42 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bubbles:

Although it would not surprise me when the reaction to terrorism often is more of a danger to democracy then the actual terrorist act. In this case they seem to have handled it more like a criminal case. If they had handled Palistinian terrorists the same way Jenin would still be standing.


Jenin still is standing.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 07 December 2004 09:50 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Jenin still is standing.

You mean kneeling don't you?

Ahh, but I guess anything to avoid explaining why a Palestinian using infalmatory speech would be declared a terrorist and given 5 consecutive life sentences, but an Israeli with direct ties to terrorism would be given 8 years (no doubt his devotion to his faith will garner him a few years off for "good and Godly behaviour as well.)

Israeli "Justice system" my ass!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 07 December 2004 10:54 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Barghouthi, was convicted by a Tel Aviv district court for direct responsibility in four attacks which killed five people. He had been charged with 26 counts of murder.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 07 December 2004 12:23 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok, so he gets life and an Israeli terrorist who "cooperated" gets 8 years.

Spot the asymmetry.

Anyway, independent of comparisons to sentences for Palestinians I still think 8 years is too low for a conviction of aiding and abetting terrorism, especially when the group one is in is evidently going to do something.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 07 December 2004 12:29 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
I still think 8 years is too low for a conviction of aiding and abetting terrorism,

I agree it is too low a sentence. Then again at least he has his life.

You know one persons cooperator is another mans collaborator. And as we all know there are some who when the cooperate or collaborate do not even get to keep their lives.


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Macabee
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posted 07 December 2004 12:55 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Ok, so he gets life and an Israeli terrorist who "cooperated" gets 8 years.

Spot the asymmetry.

Anyway, independent of comparisons to sentences for Palestinians I still think 8 years is too low for a conviction of aiding and abetting terrorism, especially when the group one is in is evidently going to do something.



Doc I know you cant stand it but the Israeli terorist it seems was not DIRECTLY involved in murder as was Barghouti.

From Ha'aretz:


quote:
Jerusalem Magistrate's Court on Monday sentenced far-right activist Shahar Dvir-Zeliger, a member of the "new Jewish underground," to eight years in jail for membership in a terrorist organization that aimed to carry out terror attacks against Arab civilians and unlawful possession of weapons stolen from the Israel Defense Forces.

Even YOU Doc might understand the difference.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 07 December 2004 02:33 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe I'm just in a Stephen Harper mood today and want a longer jail sentence for the hell of it.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 07 December 2004 02:48 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Barghouthi, was convicted by a Tel Aviv district court for direct responsibility in four attacks which killed five people. He had been charged with 26 counts of murder.

Really?

quote:
Marawan Barghouti who was convicted as a 'Terrorist' by an Israeli court and given five consecutive life sentences, (even though the jurists who convicted him admitted that there was no way they could directly link him to the acts, outside of giving infalmatory speeches)

Israeli Justice?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 07 December 2004 03:12 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

Doc I know you cant stand it but the Israeli terorist it seems was not DIRECTLY involved in murder as was Barghouti.

Well, given that what they really convicted Barghouti of was giving inflammatory speeches, seems like it's just a matter of what you feel like making the charge. If they'd felt like saying this guy was directly involved in murder, he would have been, right? Except I guess that doesn't work as well with real citizens as it does with Palestinian politicians.
And indeed, I strongly suspect that the real reason they're putting this guy away has nothing to do with murders whether planned or executed. The Israeli state doesn't care about that. But they do care about stealing weapons and munitions from the IDF--unfortunately from their perspective, it looks like they didn't have enough evidence on this guy to get him for that (it's what he was originally charged with, but they couldn't make it stick), so they went for what they could get. But the message isn't "don't kill Palestinians." The message is "don't take army property."

[ 07 December 2004: Message edited by: Rufus Polson ]


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Macabee
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posted 07 December 2004 04:31 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel accused Barghouti of funneling money to the militants and said he was involved in attacks that killed 26 Israelis. In the end, the court convicted him of attacks leading to five deaths, and acquitted him in the other cases. "He did not have direct control over the militants, but did wield influence," the judges wrote.

CBS

In the Israeli case:

quote:
Jerusalem Magistrate's Court on Monday sentenced far-right activist Shahar Dvir-Zeliger, a member of the "new Jewish underground," to eight years in jail for membership in a terrorist organization that aimed to carry out terror attacks against Arab civilians and unlawful possession of weapons stolen from the Israel Defense Forces.




He was accused of belonging to a terrorist group that "aimed" to carry out attacks.
Significantly different. But since Barghouti is clearly someone some champion here I understand your need to play down his role in the murder of innocent Israelis.

[ 07 December 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]

[ 07 December 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 07 December 2004 04:59 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"He did not have direct control over the militants, but did wield influence," the judges wrote.

yet he gets 5 life sentences?

while:

quote:
An investigation proved that the weapons had been used to kill Palestinians. Eight people were arrested based on Dvir's testimony, most of whom were subsequently released.

Zeliger and his brother, Shlomo Dvir-Zeliger, are members of the "Bat Ayin" cell, which is responsible for several attacks, including a shooting ambush on a Palestinian car in July 2001 in which three Palestinians were killed


I suppose one could argue that Zeliger "did not have direct control over the militants, but did wield influence," as well ... which means he should have received, like Barghouti, one life sentence for each death he is involved with.

No one here is asking that Barghouti be given special treatment, equal treatment would be nice though.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 07 December 2004 05:24 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Barghouti had direct involvment in murder. It is that simple. The law, whether you like it or not, gets applied differently as a result.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 08 December 2004 03:30 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Barghouti had direct involvment in murder. It is that simple.

This may be true. It may be true of you, too, for all I know.
However, we have yet to see any actual evidence of direct involvement, much less such evidence having been raised in that court. In its absence, a conviction is a travesty. It is that simple.


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Macabee
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posted 08 December 2004 03:48 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:

This may be true. It may be true of you, too, for all I know.
However, we have yet to see any actual evidence of direct involvement, much less such evidence having been raised in that court. In its absence, a conviction is a travesty. It is that simple.



Were you in the Court? How do you know such evidence did not get presented?

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No Yards
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posted 08 December 2004 05:02 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I assume the judge was there!! And he makes a statement that obviously points to no direct involvement ..."He did not have direct control over the militants, but did wield influence," the judges wrote.

Ah, but he was a lowly Palestinian, so the level of proof needed isn't as strong as one needs to convict an Israeli.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 08 December 2004 05:33 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And the judge also made the finding of guilt. The wonderful thing about the israeli justice system is that even Barghouti can appeal to the Supreme Court that even rabid anti-Zionists have admitted treats such cases fairly and properly.
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Black Dog
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posted 08 December 2004 05:54 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If the intention was to showcase this as an example of the equality of the Israeli justice system, then the mark has been missed. If this individual had been blown to bits after synagogue by a Hellfire missile, his home bulldozed and property seized, then maybe we'd have some equivilancy.

As it is, though, it's just spin.

[ 08 December 2004: Message edited by: black_dog ]


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fairydust
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posted 09 December 2004 05:35 PM      Profile for fairydust     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee you are beating your head against a wall. Unless of course you enjoy these circular dicussions tainted with a little sarcasm. Many on this forum don't appear to be independent thinkers. I hope you are not trying to convince or enlighten them. It matters not that you might be armed with the truth in some of your posts. You can always expect this sort of treatment or
much worse. You see, you are wrong and they are right in their estimation.

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Macabee
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posted 09 December 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fairydust believe me I discovered long ago the intransigence of some here. Chhanging their minds is the furthest from mine. One cannot change a closed mind.

However many lurkers access babble. It is important that those who dont think like the close-minded understand that there are two sides to all issues.


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No Yards
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posted 09 December 2004 07:11 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The issue is one of how Israel "justice" system discriminates when it comes to sentencing Israelis and Palestinians convicted of the same crime.

Here we have Barghouti, a Palestinians accused of inflamatory spech that lead to 5 deaths, and receives 5 consecutive life sentences ... then we have Dvir-Zeliger who is a member of a terrorst organization that killed 8 people, with weapons he stole, and it is likely that was directly involved, who gets 8 years.

Sound fair?

And how about last year when three Israeli terrorists were convicted of bombing a Palestinian school? ... actually bombing, not just gathering weapons, or making inflamatory speeches ... two get 15 years, one gets 12 years.

But I guess it's just my "closed mind" doesn't allow me to see the "truth" that Palestinian's making hate speech are much worst than Israelis actually blowing up people, and that Palestinian lives are worth nothing compared to Istaeli lives!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 09 December 2004 07:14 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 09 December 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 December 2004 09:45 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
The issue is one of how Israel "justice" system discriminates when it comes to sentencing Israelis and Palestinians convicted of the same crime.

Here we have Barghouti, a Palestinians accused of inflamatory spech that lead to 5 deaths, and receives 5 consecutive life sentences ... then we have Dvir-Zeliger who is a member of a terrorst organization that killed 8 people, with weapons he stole, and it is likely that was directly involved, who gets 8 years.

Sound fair?

And how about last year when three Israeli terrorists were convicted of bombing a Palestinian school? ... actually bombing, not just gathering weapons, or making inflamatory speeches ... two get 15 years, one gets 12 years.

But I guess it's just my "closed mind" doesn't allow me to see the "truth" that Palestinian's making hate speech are much worst than Israelis actually blowing up people, and that Palestinian lives are worth nothing compared to Istaeli lives!


Try it this way "Here we have Barghouti a member of a terrorist organization accused of heading terrorist groups with direct responsibility for attacks where 26 Israelis were murdered.

Dvir-Zeliger on the other hand was involved in NO murders.

And as for the bombing of the school, a reprehensible act, as I recall the bomb did not detonate. The terrorists were discovered in advance by Israeli police. How often were Palestinian terrorists forund by PA police in advnace?


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 09 December 2004 10:17 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, Barghouti was accused of inciting 5 deaths with some speeches, the judge said himself that he wasn't directly in control of the terrorists, but that his speech had influence ... Dvir-Zeliger's stolen weapons were found to be involved in 8 deaths ... the Israeli terrorists school bombing did indeed detonate, injuring 4 children and a teacher.

What would a Palestinian terrorist get for the attempted murder of one Israeli? An Israeli terrorist gets 2 to 3 years per attempt (two od them got 15 years, one of them got 12( ... figure the same penalty would apply to a Palestian convicted of attempted murder?

Here's a hint: Barghouti was, in addition to being convivted of 5 murders each resulting in life sentences, also convicted of one count of attempted murder (a bombing, just like the Israeli terrorists.)

The one count of attempted murder against Barghouti had a penalty not of 2 or 3 years, which is what the Israeli terrorists received for each of their 5 attempts ... not 12 or 15 years which the Israeli terrorists received altogether for their 5 attempts ... no, Barghouti, being a Palestinian received a 40 year sentence for one attempted murder!!

Yes, must be MY narrow mindedness that keeps me from seeing what you and dirtyfairy find so obvious!?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 December 2004 10:32 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Barghouthi, was convicted by a Tel Aviv district court for direct responsibility in four attacks which killed five people. He had been charged with 26 counts of murder.

This is simply an error. The judges who convicted him stated that although they could not link Barghouti directly to any specific attacks, they said that he made speeches. In other words when he made speeches supporting the Intifada, attacks (they say) would happen, and when he gave speeches denoucing the attacks, attacks stopped (they say). Yadda yadda.

It is totally circumstantial. Justice by inference -- It is bullshit.

[ 09 December 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 10 December 2004 08:17 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It seems that you have all had the opportunity to actually read the judgement. Could you post a link or copy so we are operating from the same page.

BTW it is a serious criminal offence to counsel murder, punishable to up to life in prisonment in most westewrn democracies.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 December 2004 08:27 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
However many lurkers access babble.

Mac, it's true that a lot of us often guess that this might be so, but I'm never sure. It appears that you are. Can you tell us how you know?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 10 December 2004 01:58 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hebrew version here.

[ 10 December 2004: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 10 December 2004 04:10 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
BTW it is a serious criminal offence to counsel murder

That's nice. Maybe they should have charged Barghouti with that. You'll notice they didn't. Of course, it may well be that his speeches didn't actually counsel murder but were merely generally "inflammatory".
But I think they knew they could nail him to the wall no matter what they charged him with, and if they only convicted him of wimpy stuff like "counselling murder" it wouldn't sound evil enough to make an effective political smear. Plus it would be easy to make it sound like they were repressing speech, which mercy me, The Only Democracy In The Middle East wouldn't want to be associated with--that's a hot button issue, not like arbitrary detention and torture. Whereas if they convicted him of buggering the Pope it would sound sorta contrived. But I'm sure they could have managed it if they really wanted.

Want to talk about Israeli justice and its ethnic-blindness? Here's an interesting story. There was a case, before the newest intifada began, of a Palestinian who was arrested, charged and convicted of throwing a rock at an Israeli trooper, on no evidence. He was in there for months in the usual horrible conditions, while lawyers busily made appeals and the story, for a particular reason, got a certain amount of media play. See, not only did this guy not match the usual profile for such things, being a middle-aged shopkeeper, HE WAS BLIND.
So in the end they let him go. But the really funny thing was that they didn't do anything sensible, like grant an appeal and find him not guilty. That would have meant admitting they could be wrong. No, they just reduced his sentence on compassionate grounds such that he'd already served all of it. So the moral is, if Israeli soldiers accuse Palestinians of crimes they are right by definition.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 10 December 2004 05:02 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Mac, it's true that a lot of us often guess that this might be so, but I'm never sure. It appears that you are. Can you tell us how you know?


An educated guess.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 10 December 2004 05:04 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:

That's nice. Maybe they should have charged Barghouti with that. You'll notice they didn't. Of course, it may well be that his speeches didn't actually counsel murder but were merely generally "inflammatory".
But I think they knew they could nail him to the wall no matter what they charged him with, and if they only convicted him of wimpy stuff like "counselling murder" it wouldn't sound evil enough to make an effective political smear. Plus it would be easy to make it sound like they were repressing speech, which mercy me, The Only Democracy In The Middle East wouldn't want to be associated with--that's a hot button issue, not like arbitrary detention and torture. Whereas if they convicted him of buggering the Pope it would sound sorta contrived. But I'm sure they could have managed it if they really wanted.

Want to talk about Israeli justice and its ethnic-blindness? Here's an interesting story. There was a case, before the newest intifada began, of a Palestinian who was arrested, charged and convicted of throwing a rock at an Israeli trooper, on no evidence. He was in there for months in the usual horrible conditions, while lawyers busily made appeals and the story, for a particular reason, got a certain amount of media play. See, not only did this guy not match the usual profile for such things, being a middle-aged shopkeeper, HE WAS BLIND.
So in the end they let him go. But the really funny thing was that they didn't do anything sensible, like grant an appeal and find him not guilty. That would have meant admitting they could be wrong. No, they just reduced his sentence on compassionate grounds such that he'd already served all of it. So the moral is, if Israeli soldiers accuse Palestinians of crimes they are right by definition.


Sadly travesties of justice happen everywhere even in Canada. Ask Guy Paul Morin or in the USA ask Hurricane Carter. BTW if you could source that story for me Id appreciate it. Thanks Rufus.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 10 December 2004 05:10 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Sadly travesties of justice happen everywhere even in Canada. Ask Guy Paul Morin or in the USA ask Hurricane Carter. BTW if you could source that story for me Id appreciate it. Thanks Rufus.

You forgot to mention that "travesties of justice" happened in Germany ... shit happen eh?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 10 December 2004 05:16 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:

You forgot to mention that "travesties of justice" happened in Germany ... shit happen eh?


And what would that be NY?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 10 December 2004 05:21 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What difference does it make what "travisties of justice" I am talking about? Obviously such things are meaningless trivia to you anyway ... people get arrested ... people get put on a show trial ... people are sentenced ... all nice and sanitary, nothing to get excited about!!
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged

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