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Author Topic: Trial "not for abusing Arabs but for disgracing the Holocaust".
Cueball
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posted 29 November 2004 06:43 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel shocked by image of soldiers forcing violinist to play at roadblock

quote:
Yoram Kaniuk, author of a book about a Jewish violinist forced to play for a concentration camp commander, wrote in Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper that the soldiers responsible should be put on trial "not for abusing Arabs but for disgracing the Holocaust".

There is something so completely obscene about the psychology of some persons in the Zionist camp. It seems that it is completely impossible for some Zionists to see an existence of people outside of the Zionist mythology. Completely insular, it is as if for some no narrative exists except one internal to the logic of Zionism.

"Others" simply do not exist.

[ 29 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Macabee
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posted 29 November 2004 08:11 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is just like you Cue to take one misguided individual's take on this travesty and turn it into sometthing anti-Zionist. The comparision was inappropriate. That said Israelis in general from what I have heard about this incident are outraged over this abuse. Stop creating hatred just to advance your agenda.
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Cueball
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posted 29 November 2004 08:20 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"If we allow Jewish soldiers to put an Arab violinist at a roadblock and laugh at him, we have succeeded in arriving at the lowest moral point possible. Our entire existence in this Arab region was justified, and is still justified, by our suffering; by Jewish violinists in the camps."


Excuse me? What about the Arabs?

Its always about the Jews and Israel, even when soldiers are torturing Arabs. Itt is so bizarre. What about the friggin Arabs?


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lagatta
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posted 29 November 2004 08:26 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball and Macabee both, it is about the value of symbol. The violinist being forced at gunpoint to perform is an emblematic image for anyone with a knowledge of 20th-century history (of the Western World at least).

Alas Edward Said isn't around any more to comment on this, but I'm interested to hear his old friend Daniel Baremboim's take on it...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 November 2004 09:08 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No way...he says:

quote:
not for abusing Arabs but for disgracing the Holocaust".

[ 29 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Macabee
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posted 29 November 2004 11:59 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One peron dos not represent all Israelis. Or does it in your mind?
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skdadl
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posted 29 November 2004 12:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One person? I thought that this thread was about what a group of soldiers did.

And then there is more, of course. From more than one commentator, too.


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Cueball
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posted 29 November 2004 12:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't say they did, now did I? I said there was a strain in Zionist thought that is completely insular.

Let me ask you this, if I, or anyone, who was not an Israeli, were to make any comparison between acts committed by the IDF and Arabs and the Holocaust, what would your response be?

The point is that the whole conception of Zinonist thought exist entirely in the framework of the Jewish experience, and the perceived needs of that community. The result of this insular mentality has been a considerable amount of damage done to other cultures that happened to be in the way.

quote:
Our entire existence in this Arab region was justified, and is still justified, by our suffering; by Jewish violinists in the camps."

You see, everything is justified not in terms of what is mutualy beneficial to both parties, but by the singular experience of "Jewish violinists in the camps." There is no expressed relationship to those 'others' who also happen to have a claim upon the territory claimed by Israel.

Zionism, by its nature, is about Jews, and therin lies the problem with it, because is not an overarching ideology that can encompass the needs of non-Jews. That is why it is a moral failure.


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Macabee
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posted 29 November 2004 01:52 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I didn't say they did, now did I? I said there was a strain in Zionist thought that is completely insular.

Let me ask you this, if I, or anyone, who was not an Israeli, were to make any comparison between acts committed by the IDF and Arabs and the Holocaust, what would your response be?

The point is that the whole conception of Zinonist thought exist entirely in the framework of the Jewish experience, and the perceived needs of that community. The result of this insular mentality has been a considerable amount of damage done to other cultures that happened to be in the way.

You see, everything is justified not in terms of what is mutualy beneficial to both parties, but by the singular experience of "Jewish violinists in the camps." There is no expressed relationship to those 'others' who also happen to have a claim upon the territory claimed by Israel.

Zionism, by its nature, is about Jews, and therin lies the problem with it, because is not an overarching ideology that can encompass the needs of non-Jews. That is why it is a moral failure.


But you make it seem as if the entirety of the Israeli nation feels that way. This is sterotyping of the worst kind. Oh and Skdadl, come on, that it is a couple of others makes no difference. You just cannot label an entire people on this basis. You certainly would react understandably in the negative if one would label all Palestinians on the basis of one or two or ten or twenty.

Now for the act itself, yes it certainly debases Arabs and Palestininas. But surely you see how many Israelis would react given Jewish history. It is not demenaing in any way to anyone else. It is but a historical reality that resonates with Jews in a harsh manner.

BTW, what "Zionist" thought are you referring to when you claim the insular strain.


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Cueball
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posted 29 November 2004 01:59 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, not all israelis think like this. This is the worst kind of idealized Zionism. it is actually more prevalent here, among the true believers. The reality on the ground makes it very difficult for the 'true believer' type to stay that way for long, but this quote, is a perefect example of it, and interesting because of its source.

Quite fascinating actually.


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Macabee
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posted 29 November 2004 03:43 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Im not following you. What exactly is facinating? Why is this special? That a couple of Israelis out of millions make a comment without real context means something. ??? Please elaborate
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skdadl
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posted 29 November 2004 03:51 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Point of information: Do we spell the word hi-jack or highjack?
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miles
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posted 29 November 2004 03:57 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Depends. Are you saying hello to your friend or committing an offense
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skdadl
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posted 29 November 2004 04:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was kind of hoping to halt the offence, miles. Not that anyone expects I am going to have much success, eh?

Amazingly enough, my COD tells me that the correct spelling is hijack, C20, origin unknown.

I'll try again. This thread is about something that was done to one man of an identifiable minority by a group of people with the power of life and death over him. Could we all stop denying the basic facts, at least?


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Macabee
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posted 29 November 2004 05:07 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, I am not denying the facts. I do question however Cueball's assumptions. Is that OK?
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DrConway
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posted 29 November 2004 10:18 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
But you make it seem as if the entirety of the Israeli nation feels that way. This is sterotyping of the worst kind. Oh and Skdadl, come on, that it is a couple of others makes no difference. You just cannot label an entire people on this basis. You certainly would react understandably in the negative if one would label all Palestinians on the basis of one or two or ten or twenty.

Now for the act itself, yes it certainly debases Arabs and Palestininas. But surely you see how many Israelis would react given Jewish history. It is not demenaing in any way to anyone else. It is but a historical reality that resonates with Jews in a harsh manner.

BTW, what "Zionist" thought are you referring to when you claim the insular strain.


Don't you always make the claim that the "broad majority" of Jews think in basically the same Zionist manner?

In short, aren't you also "stereotyping"?


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No Yards
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posted 29 November 2004 11:28 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What do we call it when you wall in a whole people because of the actions of a few members of that people?
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Macabee
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posted 29 November 2004 11:38 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Protecting your citizens from suicide bombers.
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DrConway
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posted 29 November 2004 11:43 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for playing, Macabee. You have just attempted to justify collective punishment. Pass go, and collect your Chauvinism Key at the door.
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Macabee
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posted 29 November 2004 11:51 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure Doc and you just keep on sitting comfortably in your easy chair here in Canada. Hell suicide bombers mean nuthin to ya!!! So what if a few Muslims, Jews and Christians are murdered in a restaurant in Jerusalem...means nuthin to ya does it Doc??..Hell they're only kids huh Doc??..Israelis should just let em' be..eventually they'll jus' all blow emselves up...


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Cueball
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posted 30 November 2004 12:26 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You have done it again! You have applied the same insular thinking that I am taliking about. Your ideas are about Jews and Jews only. Your wall only protects Jews. It does nothing to, for instance, defend Palestinian from the radical Islamic idealogues who push suicide bomning. Again, the Arabs are not included in your view.

How apt nothing could be more insular than building a wall.


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Macabee
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posted 30 November 2004 08:00 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball your reading abilities are very selective.

Firstly I clearly stated that a sovereign nation, first and foremost has the right and the obligation to protect its citizens, ALL ITS CITIZENS, from harm.

Secondly I noted that the seperation fence indeed protects, Muslims, Jews and Christians as well as all others living IN ISRAEL from the wrath of suicide bombers. That is its obligation and that is what it is doing, much to your chagrin it seems.


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Michelle
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posted 30 November 2004 08:37 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What does it do to protect innocent Palestinians in the West Bank?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 30 November 2004 09:27 AM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One peron dos not represent all Israelis.

That's true. It's also true that the Nazi who forced a Jewish violinist to play at gunpoint did not represent all Germans -- still, the symbol of that event is still with us all these years later. It's a powerful image.

It is a powerful image in its modern context: Israeli soldier, Palestinian violinist. In a symbolic sense, we are left with what that image essentially said in its original context as well: That power corrupts.


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skdadl
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posted 30 November 2004 09:34 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well said, Zoot.

And Israelis are not, of course, the only people currently in agony because they are trying not to see what righteous aggression is doing to them -- their own soldiers, their own society, themselves -- as well as to those they have in their righteousness conceived to be the enemy.


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Cueball
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posted 30 November 2004 10:13 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Cueball your reading abilities are very selective.

Firstly I clearly stated that a sovereign nation, first and foremost has the right and the obligation to protect its citizens, ALL ITS CITIZENS, from harm.

Secondly I noted that the seperation fence indeed protects, Muslims, Jews and Christians as well as all others living IN ISRAEL from the wrath of suicide bombers. That is its obligation and that is what it is doing, much to your chagrin it seems.


No. Israel is the Jewish state.

Its purpose as defined by Zionism is to create a haven for Jews, the Arab Muslims and Christians are incidental, some whom live behind the isolation barrier (AKA wall or fence what have you) like the Arabs of East Jerusalem aren't even afforded citizenship of the state. The purpose of the isolation barrier is to effect a solution for the security needs of the state of Israel in line with the countries founding docterine, both in terms of active attacks against it by Arab militants, but also, and probably more importantly to its design, counter what is commonly called the demographic threat.

That demographic threat, is conceived of as a threat because of the potential for Israel 'Jewish' character to be submerged in what is percieved to be an verly fecund Arab population. Again, the essential thesis is exclusion, not integration. It is singular and insular. The idea is not to come to accord with the realities of the lives of non-Jews, who share the region, but to exclude non-Jews from the polis.

Need we note that the overwhellming impact of Israel's security measures over the last four years (including its latest manifestation: the isolation barrier) has not been to stop suicide bombing, which has actually increased by six fold since 1999, but limit Arab access to Israeli labour markets.

[ 30 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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miles
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posted 30 November 2004 10:22 AM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
No. Israel is the Jewish state.

Its purpose as defined by Zionism is to create a haven for Jews, the Arab Muslims and Christians are incidental, some whom live behind the isolation barrier (AKA wall or fence what have you) like the Arabs of East Jerusalem aren't even afforded citizenship of the state.


Cueball I always thought that the State of Israel was a country whose dominant religion was judaism but who has citizens of other faiths. And that these citizens of other faiths Christians and Muslems for example are members of the Knesset, serve in the army and partake in society.

Yes some do live behind the barrier but then again some do not.


Yes Hebrew is the main language. But then again many countries have a main language that is the language of the cultural majority.

Israel is a Jewish state the same way that Canada is a Christian state. By virtue of the dominant religion of the populous.

I do not think that we can generalize to say that Israel is just a zionist entity the same way that one can not say that only Jews are zionists.

There are Christian Zionists around the world. There are non-zionist Christians as well. There are Zionist Jews and there are sects Judaism who are against Zionism and against the State of Israel.

[ 30 November 2004: Message edited by: miles ]


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Cueball
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posted 30 November 2004 11:19 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel is explicitly a Jewish state. It says so in its founding document, which is by the way not a constitution I forget what it is called. Here it is, i looked it up:

The Declaration Of The Establishment Of The State Of Israel

quote:
ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.


I got that from the Jewish Virtual Library a great resource on all things Israel, with great resources all in one place.

Canada's Christian nature is tacit, not explicit. Furthermore Canada explicitly enshrines the principal that religion and state are seperate. At best, given that the declaration also includes various qaulifiers about religious equality, the official Israeli position can at best be termed confused. How can one truly have religious equality in a state dedicated to one religion?

In fact this confusion has led to an ongoing constitutional crisis in Israel, about whether it is secular, or not, as well as the rights of otehr religions. Be that as it may, Israel has no constitution, only the declaration, and some subsidary laws.

Anyway...

The reason that there are a substantial number of Jewish people living there is because the Zionists made it that way. I believe that in 1889 the statistics for Jewish residents of what is Israel today was somewhere in the neighborhood of 5%, with Jews owning 3% of the land.

The Zionists at first specifically engineered the present demographic by encouraging Jewish immigration, prior to 1948 through ideological commitment, then later many came as an unfortunate result of the Nazi attempt to exterminate European Jews, and then after Israel encouraged further immigration through means of relocation subsidies, supported by Israels British and American backers.

At the same time they have actively pursued a policy of of encouraging Arabs to leave through violence, intimidation and the application of legal and adminstrative measures designed to force Arab evacuation. In 1948 alone over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were more or less expelled after a series of attacks and massacres of Arab villagers. To this day Israel denies the 'right of return,' to Arabs expelled in the 1948 Nakba (disaster as it is termed by the Arabs) and otherwise limits the immigration of non-jews, in particular Arabs.

Today it is as we see it, devided, isolated, in constant conflict and insitant on enforcing a type of racial isolation that simply does not fit the facts.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
dillinger
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posted 30 November 2004 02:05 PM      Profile for dillinger   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
and speaking of the right of return I find it infuriating that the Isrealis have explicity called the right of return for Palestinian refugees kicked off of their land by Isreal a "non-starter" in terms of negotiations yet allow any Jew in the world to become a citizen of Israel. How's that for fair: one side rots in a refugee camp, the other gets a right of return from somewhere they're not even from!
From: Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 01 December 2004 01:49 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stole this from another thread.

quote:
While the officer responsible for killing Iman al-Hams has been charged with relatively minor offences, and the soldiers who forced the violinist to play were ticked off for being "insensitive", the only troops who were swiftly punished for violating regulations last week were some who posed naked in the snow for a photograph. They were dismissed from their unit.

For a moment of levity, I note for the record that I want *those* pictures.

quote:
The rightwing Army Radio commentator Uri Orbach found the incident disturbingly reminiscent of Jewish musicians forced to provide background music to mass murder. "What about Majdanek?" he asked, referring to the Nazi extermination camp.

So, Macabee. Is that commentator a "demonic Anti-Semite" for drawing an explicit comparison to Nazi Germany?

In plagiarizing myself, I will repeat:

"The line is blurring dangerously, Macabee. At some point the distinction will be lost, and you will still call me demonic (which you claimed you never called anyone) because I am calling a spade a spade."

The line is still blurred, but as yet has not vanished. Have a care, Macabee, for one day the oppressor will be indistinguishable from the previous one.

(and if you don't believe that can happen, look at the USA. It's turning into some kind of cracked-mirror-image of the USSR.)


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WingNut
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posted 01 December 2004 03:13 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Firstly I clearly stated that a sovereign nation, first and foremost has the right and the obligation to protect its citizens, ALL ITS CITIZENS, from harm.

And how convenient that would include Jews but not Arabs in the West Bank.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 01 December 2004 10:39 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Israel is explicitly a Jewish state. It says so in its founding document, which is by the way not a constitution I forget what it is called. Here it is, i looked it up:

The Declaration Of The Establishment Of The State Of Israel

I got that from the Jewish Virtual Library a great resource on all things Israel, with great resources all in one place.


What a surprise, I guess you must have forgotten this salient piece huh?

quote:
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.



From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 01 December 2004 10:42 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"...and you will still call me demonic (which you claimed you never called anyone) because I am calling a spade a spade."


Can you show me where I made that claim. I'll just wait.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 02 December 2004 12:55 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Apparently some of the soldiers in question lied (you don't say?) about what happened.

A Palestinian man photographed playing his violin at the Beit Iba checkpoint near Nablus in the West Bank earlier this month on Tuesday rejected the Israel Defense Forces' claims that he played of his own accord.

quote:
"I felt humiliated," Tayam said Tuesday. I always identified with the Jews who suffered in Europe [at the time of the Nazis] and after that they come and do the same thing to us."

[ 02 December 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 December 2004 01:06 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Can you show me where I made that claim. I'll just wait.

quote:
Invoking Nazi imagery to Jews/Israelis in general (as this so cleverly does) is abhorrent especially in a time when Jews are being targeted world-wide for the perceived crimes of Israel. It is exactly what Jewish leaders refer to when identifying uncivil and demonic language being used against Jews and Israelis. Im truly sad and shocked that you even posted such drivel.

Are those your words or not? You have claimed before that you never used that word to describe anyone. It's on the same thread I linked to previously when I said I plagiarized myself, so you can go look your own words up.

And holy geez, you and your good buddy Mishei love that word.

Check it here, and here, and here, and over here.

Now you might nitpick and claim that you just called the "language" demonic, but the fact is that the use of that word is quite unique, as it is a religiously-themed word, and as such brings up connotations of evil, thus implying that the person using the words is evil.

So I will not let you try to fly that one past me, so you can just save it.

[ 02 December 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 December 2004 04:42 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well Mac, I was prepared for your silly post by noting that:

quote:
Canada's Christian nature is tacit, not explicit. Furthermore Canada explicitly enshrines the principal that religion and state are seperate. At best, given that the declaration also includes various qaulifiers about religious equality, the official Israeli position can at best be termed confused. How can one truly have religious equality in a state dedicated to one religion?


So try reading my posts all the way through, or something, or... who knows, what you should do, to stop embarrassing yourself.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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