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Author Topic: All hail the Isreali resistance!
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 19 November 2004 07:03 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
“Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth, Lest the Lord see it, and it displease him.” This biblical injunction (Proverbs 24:17) is one of the most profound Jewish moral tenets.

In this connection, Israel is very far from being a “Jewish State”, as it likes to define itself. The disgusting filth poured out over Yasser Arafat during the last few days in practically all the Israeli media makes one ashamed to be an Israeli.

The demonization of the Palestinian national leader, which has been the center-piece of Israeli propaganda for decades, continues even after his death. It seems that 37 years as occupiers have bestialized our society and left it bereft even of common decency. Ministers and fishmongers, TV icons and university professors, “leftists” and outright fascists tried to outdo each other in utter vulgarity.


Uri

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 19 November 2004 07:15 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is an admission of failure. The written word is a failure at making tangible to Israeli readers the true horror of the occupation in the Gaza Strip. When something is written about the sea being closed off to Palestinians in the north and south of the Strip, the response will be "they are terrorists." If something is written about neighborhoods in the western part of the Khan Yunis refugee camp and how the buildings are all full of bullet holes from heavy machine guns and cannon shells, the response will be "the Palestinians started it." Tell the story of how 15-year-old Yusuf Bashir's family home in Dir al-Balah has been turned into an army fortress, and in Israel they'll say, "there is no choice, the Jewish settlement of Kfar Darom must be protected, like Kfar Dekalim, Atzmona and Morag."

Amira


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 19 November 2004 07:25 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is nothing very complicated or mysterious about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Never trust those who present it as an extremely complex issue, with endless political, historical, religious and cultural repercussions, on which you cannot take an informed stand without a Ph.D. in history and three decades of political activity for AIPAC. It's quite simple: the Arab states and the Palestinians have in fact acknowledged Israel's right to exist in peace, if it withdraws from the occupied Palestinian territories taken in 1967; whereas Israel wants to keep these territories, though it doesn't quite know how. The conflict is as simple as that.

Ran


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 19 November 2004 07:39 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would post more articles by left wing isreali radicals but I can't think anymore.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 21 November 2004 03:31 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
George W. Bush is a product of the Wild West myth. He sees himself as the fast-drawing sheriff who kills the bad guys and maintains order in town.

But in fact he is much more like another stock figure of the Westerns: the top-hatted vendor of the patent medicine which heals everything: tooth-ache and belly-ache, cholera and impotence, gunshot wounds and heart attacks.

Bush’s patent medicine is called “democracy”. Democracy will heal all the diseases of the Middle East and the entire world. If only the Muslim nations would buy his little flask, all problems would be solved, and foremost among them the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And since Israel is already an exemplary democracy, led by that great democrat, Ariel Sharon, all that is needed now is to impose democracy on the Palestinians. This means free elections for president and parliament.

A person with limited intellectual capacity needs simple solutions. A one-dimensional solution that does not demand delving into the complexities of other societies and civilizations. What’s good for his little Texan town must be good for Baghdad and Gaza, too.

Since winning reelection, his self-confidence has shot sky high. He has kicked out the hapless Colin Powell and put a certified yeswoman in charge of the State Department. From now on, nobody will question his decisions anymore. Not even if he appoints his horse Chief Justice.

So who is worried? Of all people, Ariel Sharon, his great friend, teacher and guide.

As fate would have it, Bush achieved his great victory one day before the sudden, mysterious breakdown of Yasser Arafat’s health. Sharon’s alibi was buried in Ramallah.

Successive Israeli governments have presented Arafat as a monster and used his monstrosity as a pretext for undermining any attempt to impose peace upon them. Peace means withdrawing to the pre-1967 border, more or less, and dismantling the settlements. Peace means giving up East Jerusalem, more than half of the “eternal capital of Israel”. God forbid!

The demonization of Arafat helped avoid this. After all, one cannot make peace with a monster. Even Bush understood that. Therefore he helped Sharon prevent elections for the Palestinian Authority, in which Arafat was certain to be reelected by a landslide.


Who's next?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 November 2004 04:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I read all your links, CMOT. Most powerful.

Now I am disheartened. What is left to say that we haven't said before?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 21 November 2004 06:55 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's all right, You don't have to say anything, I created this thread to showcase dissident voices in Israel. We Babblers spend so much time attacking the lunatics who control the IDF and the corruption and racism of the Israeli government, we sometimes forget that there's opposition to the occupation and to the military junta which controls Israel. The opposition isn't that large, but it is there.
Does Ben Halper write articles?

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Cueball
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posted 22 November 2004 09:29 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of resistance, I think my favourite Ran Hacohen article was this one: The Syrian Threat.

quote:
"Out of the north an evil shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land" (Jer 1:14) is a verse every Israeli pupil learns by heart. This biblical truth has never been more true than these days: the Syrian President, in a major threat to the Jewish state, offers Israel to resume peace talks. A blatant crime against war itself. Israel, understandably, is forced to defend itself.


It freaked one poster out so much that he called it "defeatist." It was the strangest comment on the article, revealing a mentality exactly like the one Hacohen attacks... any talk of negotiation is "defeatist," I guess.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 22 November 2004 10:54 AM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It freaked one poster out so much that he called it "defeatist." It was the strangest comment on the article, revealing a mentality exactly like the one Hacohen attacks... any talk of negotiation is "defeatist," I guess.

Wrong again


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Cueball
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posted 22 November 2004 06:44 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh your back. Well than, what was your point. What is defeatist about Ran Hacohen. His point seems to be, we've won, now its time to negotiate terms of armistice, no?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 29 November 2004 06:40 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
“Give me some credit!” the new Israeli Prime Minister, Levi Eshkol, cried out at the Labor Party convention in February 1965, addressing David Ben-Gurion.

From the moment he resigned, Ben-Gurion started to undermine his successor. Eshkol, who until then had only dealt with finances, looked pale and ineffectual next to his monumental predecessor, the Father of the State, the leader in two wars.

Eshkol meant his words quite literally. He said: “Ben-Gurion, I shall use the language of a treasurer: Give me some credit! That’s all I ask, for one term in office, four years at most!”

The dramatic cry did not help. Ben-Gurion left the party and continued to rain fire and brimstone on Eshkol.


Give me some credit!


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 05 December 2004 02:32 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My immediate reaction to Marwan Barghouti’s registration as a candidate for the presidency of the Palestinian Authority was positive.

First of all, I am always in favor of the underdog. And who could be more of an underdog than a prisoner?

Second, I respect the man. I have met him at planning meetings for joint peace actions. I have demonstrated for him in Tel-Aviv and been forcibly evicted from the court building, with a rightist lynch mob howling in the background.

Third, the Marwan Barghouti candidacy puts the fate of the Palestinian prisoners on the agenda – those prisoners of war who are treated like common criminals by Israel.

Fourth, his candidacy (if he exercises it) will set the stage for a scene unprecedented in the Arab world: an election where the victory of one candidate is no assured in advance. An Abu Mazen-Marwan Barghouti confrontation would be a real fight.


Widow of Opportunity?

Question: Has Uri ever critcized the Oslo Accord?


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MyName
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posted 06 December 2004 12:13 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
That's the great thing about Israel.
Every nutbar with a computer can write whatever they want.
That's part of what makes it a democracy.
And that's part of why it deserves the support of every progressive.

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al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 December 2004 12:22 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You ought to watch Palestine is Still the Issue and see how the IOF treats the computers of people they want to silence.
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Cueball
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posted 06 December 2004 12:48 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think he meant any Jewish nutbar can say what they want.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 06 December 2004 07:18 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MyName:
That's the great thing about Israel.
Every nutbar with a computer can write whatever they want.
That's part of what makes it a democracy.
And that's part of why it deserves the support of every progressive.

Mr. Avnery is a life long peace activist. He was a consumate politician and has given his life to the Israeli state.
[sarcasm font]I would have thought that that he would have your support, given that you like the idea of peace so much.[/sarcasm font]
Calling him a nutbar shows an incredible lack of respect.
Question: Why do so many Zionists endorse a course of action which will inevitably lead to the destruction of Israel?

[ 06 December 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 07 December 2004 01:39 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is weird isn't it.
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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 12 December 2004 09:15 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When the fruit sellers at the Tel Aviv market shout “the boss has gone crazy!” they mean that they are selling their merchandise at ridiculously low prices.

In the world’s capitals, a similar cry is now being heard: “The boss has gone crazy!” – but it is not about the price of tomatoes. It refers to the new situation, after the reelection of George W. Bush for four more years.

In many places, Bush is seen as a crazy cowboy, the kind who rides into town shooting in all directions. He has attacked Afghanistan. He has attacked Iraq. His neo-con handlers want to attack Syria and Iran in the next phase. They want to establish subservient regimes everywhere (“promoting democracy in the Middle East”), station permanent American garrisons in the region and control the world’s oil market, and - last but not least - help Ariel Sharon to fulfil his plans.

Now, in his second term of office, Bush can do pretty much as he pleases.

The Middle Eastern rulers have drawn this conclusion with impressive speed. Every one of them rushed for cover in the nearest political cave, until the danger is over.

- The Syrian ruler, Bashar Assad, has started a peace offensive, to the sound of a hundred angelic trumpets.

- The Egyptian ruler, Husni Mubarrak, has suddenly discovered that Sharon is his long-lost brother, a man of peace from the cradle onwards. He now presents himself as Bush’s viceroy in the Middle East.

- The Jordanian ruler, King Abdallah II, is making similar noises (after taking the opportunity to clip the wings of his younger brother.)

- The rulers of Iran, the tough Ayatullahs, executed a hasty withdrawal and agreed to give up their nuclear program.

- And the Palestinians are uniting behind Abu Mazen, who is favored by President Bush.


The Boss Has Gone Crazy!


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 December 2004 07:21 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We should also not forget to include this fellow on this thread...

Israel must be treated as South Africa was: sanctions, boycotts -- Illan Pappe

quote:
The first agenda is not a peace agenda. If you are in the business of protecting the cause of Palestine you are not just on the business of peace — you have a much more urgent agenda, which is saving the Palestinians in Palestine. I'm not sure that you can prevent the Israeli government from taking its next steps in its policies of destruction and expulsion by talking about dialogues for peace.

I think you should start thinking about what an activist group can do to create an atmosphere in which Israel is a pariah state as long as these policies continue. Talk about sanctions, talk about boycotts, talk about anything that drives home the message that enough is enough, that such behaviour cannot be tolerated from a state that claims to be part of the family of civilized countries.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 13 December 2004 11:35 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does he beleive in a one state solution?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 14 December 2004 12:10 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
To appreciate the breathtaking magnanimity expressed by this short slogan, one needs to remember its context. Imagine: a foreign army occupies your village for decades, reduces you to subjects without any rights, arrests you arbitrarily, savagely tortures the arrested, and, on top of it all, sends mighty bulldozers to erect a gigantic wall on your land, locking you up as in a cage. And your reaction? Peaceful demonstrations, shouting "No to the Wall" – but "Yes to Peace," to peace with your very oppressor and dispossessor.


Finally! An update!


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 19 December 2004 02:23 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ariel Sharon’s speech at the “Herzliya Conference”, an annual gathering of Israel’s financial, political and academic aristocracy, proved again his wondrous ability to conjure up an imaginary world and divert attention away from the real one. Like every successful con-man, he knows that the audience desperately wants to believe good tidings and will be happy to ignore bad ones.
It was an optimistic message, as the bewitched commentators proclaimed. According to him, we are on our way to paradise, 2005 will be a year of tremendous progress in all fields and all our problems will be solved.

Most of the speech was devoted to his fabulous achievements since he launched, at the same conference a year ago, the “Unilateral Disengagement Plan”.
This (in my own free translation) is what he said: America is in our pocket. President Bush supports all of Sharon’s positions, including those that are diametrically opposed to Bush’s own former positions. Europe has resigned itself to him. The Great of the World are standing in line to visit us, starting with Tony Blair. Egypt and the other Arab states are cosying up to us. Our international position has improved beyond recognition. The economy is advancing by leaps and bounds, our society is flourishing. Apart from the right-wing lunatic fringe, there is no opposition left. The Labor Party is joining the government and will support all its steps. (He somehow forgot to mention Yossi Beilin’s Yahad party, which, too, has promised him an “iron bridge”.)
Sharon has achieved all this solely by talking. His words have not been accompanied, up to now, by even one single action on the ground. There is no certainty that Sharon really intends to implement the “disengagement” at all. His intentions can be defined as follows:


The mountain and the mouse


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 29 December 2004 08:31 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
“The curious incident is the barking of the dog,” Sherlock Holmes remarked.

“But the dog did not bark!” exclaimed Dr. Watson.

“That is the curious incident!”

This week’s curious incident concerns the wreath of Tony Blair. The wreath that he did not lay on the grave of Yasser Arafat. Elementary, dear Watson.

Blair did go to the graveside. But he omitted the natural and customary thing: laying a wreath. Neither did he bow. He just tilted his head a few centimeters and hastened to get away.

In my imagination, I can hear the frantic consultations before the event. Blair’s advisors are discussing it: To lay a wreath? No, no, that will make President Bush angry. To bow? Ariel Sharon won’t like it. To tilt the head? Alright. That should satisfy the …. Palestinians.

But how much? Ten centimeters? Too much. Two? Not enough. Five, then? That should do it.

I see Blair practicing in front of a mirror. And, indeed, he did it exactly as planned. To the millimeter.


Tony Blair is a cowardly little shit!


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 02 January 2005 10:47 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Let’s imagine for a moment that the huge tidal waves had hit the western shores of Europe, that more than a hundred thousand English, Irish, Dutch, Belgian, French, Spanish and Portuguese had fallen victim to the tsunami, and that the east coast of the United States had also suffered.

How the world would have sprung into action! How the governments would have been galvanized! What huge sums of money would have materialized within hours to save what could be saved and prevent the epidemics that threatened millions!

But it did not happen in Europe. It happened to remote, poverty-stricken Asiatic countries. And that makes all the difference.

Was this bound to happen?

The earthquake could not have been prevented and sufficient warning of it could not have been given. But the moment an earthquake under the sea was registered, the tsunami was to be expected. When it started its amok race across the ocean, there was enough time to warn more distant shores. After all, a few minutes were enough for tens of thousands to run to higher ground or climb to higher floors. Such a warning was not given.

Mankind has reached the moon. Spaceships explore far-away stars. Billions upon billions have been invested in these efforts. But the human genius is not sufficient to save hundreds of thousands of human beings from such a natural disaster.


Before the Next Catastrophe


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 09 January 2005 12:50 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How the hell did I get into this goddamned mess? I wake up in the morning and can’t believe it. What, I, Arik Sharon, am waging a war against the settlers? I, who put them there in the first place? I, who drafted the map of the settlements long before the settlers themselves ever dreamed of it?

How, for God sake, did this start? What did I want, after all?

President Bush asked me to produce a peace plan of some kind. He needed it for his reelection campaign. Alright then, shouldn’t I do him a favor, after he supported us on everything just to get a good word from me, frequently performing a U-turn, like with the settlement blocs?


web page


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 10 January 2005 05:35 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CMOT, I urge you to go out and find the collection The Other Israel: Voices of Refusal and Dissent edited by Tom Segev. It is right up your alley. I hope, one day, we will see an American equivalent.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 15 January 2005 09:58 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Now it’s official: “the First Democracy in the Arab World” or “the Second Democracy in the Middle East” has been born.

The Palestinian elections have impressed the world. Until now, if elections were held in any Arab country at all, there was only one candidate, and he received 99.62% of the vote. Yet here there were seven candidates, there was a lively election campaign and the winning candidate got only 62%.

The truth is, of course, that Palestinian democracy existed already. In 1996, the Palestinians held elections for the presidency and the parliament, monitored by international observers. Yasser Arafat, the leader of the Palestinian struggle for liberation, was not the only one standing; another candidate, Samikha Khalil, a respected woman, did garner almost 10% of the vote. But because of Arafat’s dominant personality, the insufficient separation between the branches of government and the relentless Israeli defamation campaign against him, many people around the world did not recognize the Palestinian democracy.


Who envies Abu Mazen?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 January 2005 07:45 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When King George V died, we got a day off from school as a sign of mourning. Palestine was then a part of the British Empire, which ruled the country under a League of Nations mandate. To this very day, a central street in Tel-Aviv, not far from my home, bears the name of King George.

George V was followed (after a brief interlude) by George VI, who was until recently the last George in our life. Now we have a new King George, not British but American.


King George


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 27 January 2005 07:02 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
CMOT, I urge you to go out and find the collection The Other Israel: Voices of Refusal and Dissent edited by Tom Segev. It is right up your alley. I hope, one day, we will see an American equivalent.

To be quite frank, I'm not certain that there is an Israeli resistance. It would appear that most Israeli leftists believe in the two state solution. A Palestinian state in the occupied territories is a Band-Aid solution. It will not adress the grievances of the Palestinian refugees and probably won't ensure happiness and prosperity for the Palestinian residents of the territories (they will have to rely on massive amounts of aid from the West and will probably never be financially independent)
the only real solution is a single democratic secular Palestinian state in which both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace.
I post the articles from Uri Avnery et al. Because I believe that they are good people, if somewhat misguided. I wonder how any of the dissidents I have cited would react, however, if they were faced with the possibility that the world's only Jewish state would become somewhat less Jewish. Would Ran Hacohen try to prevent Arab refugees from returning to Jerusalem? Would Amira Hass be in favor of relocating Israeli Arabs to the West bank?
I wish someone could reassure me that their are in fact Jewish one staters in Israel, but I haven't heard of any besides Bernard Aveshi and Jeremy Meltram.
It's very depressing

[ 27 January 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
mahsbah
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posted 28 January 2005 02:12 AM      Profile for mahsbah     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why must an Israeli support eliminating their country to be deemed appropriately "progressive" in your eyes?

Avnery supports a two-state solution, because, unlike the backseat drivers on the North American left, he is in touch with reality. There will never, ever be a "binational" state, even if such a result were desirable.


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Coyote
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posted 28 January 2005 12:54 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The fundamental problem is the occupation: full stop. One, two, a bajillion states all come after that. Now, I have advocated for one state in the past, and I do consider the best possible solution in the best of all possible worlds. The problem for one state advocates in that there is no constituency for it in Israel, and I don't think anyone wants to be put in the position of imposing such a state on anyone; if it happens it will happen because it is the democratic will of the people involved.

There is a constituency for ending the occupation, pulling out the settlements, and negotiating with Palestinians - even amongst people who are not "progressive".

I will defend the idea and the motives of those who advocate one-state, and I understand that the idea flows from the notion of the occupation as Apartheid - which I share. I am not convinced that the conversation advances what I think must be the primary goal: the end of the occupation.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
mahsbah
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posted 28 January 2005 03:43 PM      Profile for mahsbah     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with you on that much: the occupation is destroying Israel, and destroying the territories in an even more concrete way. The sooner it ends the better.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 28 January 2005 08:27 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The fundamental problem is the occupation: full stop.


How will the lives of the Palestinians improve if the occupation ends? If the Israeli army withdraws from the territories and the West Bank and Gaza become the independent state of Palestine, the Palestinian authority will still be stuck with a country that has very little in the way of natural resources and no infrastructure. This means of course, that any president, regardless of how progressive he actually is, will be unable to end the conditions that lead to terrorism.


I'm sorry everybody, this was meant to be a thread about the Israeli left, something to make North American Progressives think happy, optimistic thoughts about Israel. I didn't mean to become so pessimistic.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 29 January 2005 12:23 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As Oscar Wilde once said, there are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it. Israel is now facing the latter tragedy. For years on end, we knew what we wanted: we wanted Arafat dead. Not that we just sat and waited for it: we used ceaseless incitement to prepare world opinion for his proactive elimination; we even endorsed a government decision to get rid of him, and we held the old man prisoner in his destroyed headquarters under conditions that would sooner rather than later kill the healthiest senior (the Palestinians missed a good point by propagating the legend that Arafat was poisoned, as if his incarceration by Israel was not enough to kill him). Anyway, Arafat is now dead, we got what we wanted, and we are not happy.


The threat of peace


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 29 January 2005 05:32 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:


How will the lives of the Palestinians improve if the occupation ends? If the Israeli army withdraws from the territories and the West Bank and Gaza become the independent state of Palestine, the Palestinian authority will still be stuck with a country that has very little in the way of natural resources and no infrastructure. This means of course, that any president, regardless of how progressive he actually is, will be unable to end the conditions that lead to terrorism.


Well, CMOT, the answer to this could be very long. I'm going to shorten it. How would their lives be better? Well, I think the lack of checkpoints, military closures, settlements, and land confistication would be a marked improvement. Control over their own resources, their own land, their own lives. I think it takes a certain naivety to believe that the occupation is something that exists on a purely political level; it is the everyday humiliation and fear that is the grist of terrorism.

I have never liked the "poverty creates terrorism" equation; it does not explain how or why terrorism can be inflicted on the poor by the rich, and it is a slander on the poor of the world - most of whom would not take the life of innocents. I also think, on this point, that you underestimate the economic capacity of an indepedent Palestine which has, despite everything, one of the most literate and educated populations in the Middle East.

None of this is an argument against a possible one-state solution; it is an argument against the necessity of a one-state solution as the "only" solution.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 29 January 2005 07:27 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you for your optimism.


quote:
Perhaps the second intifada has come to an end. Perhaps the cease-fire in the Gaza Strip will develop into a general, mutual cease-fire.

For me, the words “cease fire” have an extra resonance. When I was a soldier in the 1948 war, I twice experienced what it means to wait for a cease-fire. Each time we were totally exhausted after heavy fighting in which many of our comrades had been killed or wounded. We hoped with all our hearts that a cease-fire would really come into effect, but did not allow ourselves to believe in it. In both cases, a few minutes before the appointed hour, along the whole front line a crazy cacophony of firing erupted, everybody shooting and shelling with everything he had. To attain some last-minute advantages, as it appeared afterwards.

And then, suddenly, the shooting stopped. An eerie quiet settled in. We looked at each other and left unspoken what we all felt: We are saved! We have been left alive!

I understand, therefore, the feelings of the fighters on both sides, who are now hoping that the mutual cease-fire will come into effect and hold. After four and a quarter years of fighting, everybody is exhausted.

The first question at the end of the fighting is: Who won?


The stalemate


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 06 February 2005 08:14 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What would we say if an American institution, holding a seventh of all the land in the United States, adopted statutes that allowed it to sell or rent land only to White Anglo-Saxon Protestants?

We would not believe it. And it is, indeed, impossible.

But that’s the way things are in Israel. This us now the subject of a stormy public debate.

These are the facts: The Jewish National Fund (in Hebrew Keren Kayemet le-Israel - KKL) holds 13% of all the land in Israel. Its statutes explicitly prohibit the sale or rental of land to non-Jews. This means that every Jew in the world, living anywhere from Timbuktu to Kamchatka, can get land from the KKL, without even coming to Israel, while an Arab citizen of Israel, whose forefathers have lived here for hundreds – or even thousands - of years, cannot acquire a house or an apartment on its land.

The debate arose after a recent ruling of the Israeli Supreme Court which proscribed discrimination between citizens in the distribution of land. On the strength of this, the KKL has been sued. Now the Attorney General has decided that the Government cannot discriminate against Arab citizens, even while distributing land belonging to the KKL.

This is all very nice, but there is a “but”. The best legal brains looked for a way out: How to keep the discrimination alive in spite of the court’s decision? No Problem. The Attorney General simply proposes that for every dunam (1000 square meters, a Turkish measure still applied in Israel) that the KKL will have to distribute – God forbid – to Arabs, the government will compensate it with another dunam somewhere else. The alternative land will be in the “peripheral” areas, the Negev and the Galilee, where it is much more profitable. And for good measure, the government will guarantee that the annual revenues of the KKL will reach half a billion Shekels. Thus the cake will be divided but remain whole.

The KKL, by the way, appoints almost half the directors of the “Israel Land Authority”, the government body that is in charge of all state-owned land in Israel.

In this situation, 20% of the citizens of Israel are denied the right to buy a home in large parts of the country, while this right is enjoyed by Jews living in Brooklyn and Odessa.


www.gush-shalom.org/archives/article342.html


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 06 February 2005 08:29 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are we 100% sure that Uri Avnery is a Zionist? I mean, if he's in favor of Israeli Arabs being able to buy land and participate fully in Israeli society, doesn't that mean that he would also be willing to forget the idea of Israel being a Jewish state? This article makes it sound as though he's completely prepared to let Israel lose its Jewish majority and become a completely egalitarian country.
Have I missed something?

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 13 February 2005 04:27 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Nobody called it the “Ophira Conference”. Not even the papers of the extreme right. Who today even remembers the name Ophira, which was given to Sharm-al-Sheikh during the Israeli occupation, as a first step to its annexation?

Who wants to remember the famous saying of Moshe Dayan that “Sharm-al-Sheikh is more important than peace”? A few years later, the same Dayan took part in the peace negotiations with Egypt and gave Sharm-al-Sheikh back. But in the meantime, some 2500 young Israelis and who knows how many thousands of Egyptians paid with their lives for that statement in the Yom Kippur war.

While the conference went on, I could not clear my head of a song that was haunting me: “Sharm-al-Sheikh, we have come back again…” It was sung with gusto in the days of the stupid euphoria after the Six-Day war. It reminded people at the time that we had already conquered the place during the 1956 Sinai war but were compelled by the Eisenhower-Bulganin ultimatum to withdraw. So here we were again.

I was there in 1956. A beautiful gulf (“Sharm-al-Sheikh means “the bay of the old man”), a few small houses and a distinctive mosque. Before our army withdrew, a few months later, it blew up the mosque in a fit of pique.

Now, 22 years after leaving Ophira for the last time (nobody sang then “Sharm-al-Sheikh, we have left you again…”) all of us are treating the place as an Egyptian resort, as Egyptian as Cairo and Alexandria. The past has been erased. The occupation has been wiped from our collective memory.

That is the first optimistic lesson from the conference. One can withdraw. One can put an end to occupation. One can even forget that it ever took place.

The spirits of two people who were not there hovered over the proceedings.


“Sharm-al-Sheikh, We Have Come Back Again…”


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 20 February 2005 01:35 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is not very flattering to be paraded like a Rottweiler on a leash, whose master threatens to let him loose on his enemies. But this is our situation now.

Vice President Dick Cheney threatened a few weeks ago that if Iran continues to develop its nuclear capabilities, Israel might attack her.

This week, President George Bush repeated this threat. If he were the leader of Israel, he declared, he would have been feeling threatened by Iran. He reminded those who are a little slow that the United States has undertaken to defend Israel if there is a threat to its security.

All this adds up to a clear warning: if Iran does not submit to the orders of the US (and, perhaps, even if it does) Israel will attack it with American help, much as it attacked the Iraqi nuclear reactor some 24 years ago.



Beware of the Dog!

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 February 2005 06:31 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Many years ago, Noam Chomsky called Israel the USA's "attack dog" in the Middle East.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 20 February 2005 06:45 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess great minds think alike, eh?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 27 February 2005 02:54 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Seven words uttered by President Bush in Brussels have not been paid the attention they deserve.

He called for the establishment of “a democratic Palestinian state with territorial contiguity” in the West Bank, and then added: “A state on scattered territories will not work.”

It is worthwhile to ponder these words. Who did he point the finger at? Why did he say this in Brussels, of all places?

Nobody warns of a danger without a reason. If Bush said what he said, it means that he believes that someone is causing this danger.

Just who might that be?

For years now I have been warning that this is the intention of Ariel Sharon, the basis of the whole settlement enterprise planned and set up by him. The lay-out of the settlements on the West Bank map is designed to cut the territory up from North to South and from West to East, in order to forestall any possibility of establishing a really viable and contiguous Palestinian state, a state like any other.

If the settlement blocs that have been created are annexed to Israel, the Palestinian territory will be sliced up into a number of enclaves – perhaps four, perhaps six. The Gaza Strip, an isolated ghetto by itself, will be another enclave. Each enclave will be surrounded by settlements and military installations, and all of them will be cut off from the world outside.

The American intelligence agencies are familiar with this picture, of course. They can see it with their satellites. But that did not deter President Bush from promising Sharon last year that Israeli “population centers” in the West Bank will be annexed to Israel. These “population centers” are the very same settlement blocs that were defined by the US in the past as “illegal” and “an obstacle to peace”. During the presidency of the first President Bush, the American administration even decided to deduct the costs of new settlement projects from the financial benefits accorded to Israel.

So why did the second Bush suddenly make a declaration whose practical meaning is that some of these settlement blocs must be dismantled? And why did he make it in Brussels?




Finger After Finger

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 February 2005 06:21 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
“a democratic Palestinian state with territorial contiguity”
Are they not contigous if they are joined together by "Palestinian Only" roads?

I am not saying that he was he meant. But you can't be sure that isn't what he meant or say he meant at some future point. He has lied before.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 02 March 2005 03:15 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
S.Y. Agnon, the famous Israeli writer, once toyed with the idea that the German culture was all but forgotten, with German scholars traveling all over the world, desperately looking for exiled German Jews who were the last to preserve the lost German culture and save it from oblivion. I cannot help thinking about this fictitious anecdote whenever the U.S., once a great democracy and now the great "democratizer" of the globe, becomes less and less democratic, running propaganda channels like al-Hurra while pressuring a country like Qatar to close or "restrain" its relatively free television channel al-Jazeera (New York Times, Jan. 30). A time may come when the world has to remind America of the meaning of democracy.



Democracy, a Free Press, and Other Fantasies

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 06 March 2005 12:52 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Next Crusades

Many years ago, I read a book called “The Quiet American” by Graham Greene. Its central character is a high-minded, naive young American operative in Vietnam. He has no idea about the complexities of that country but is determined to right its wrongs and create order. The results are disastrous.
I have the feeling that this is happening now in Lebanon. The Americans are not so high-minded and no so naive. Far from it. But they are quite prepared to go into a foreign country, disregard its complexities, and use force to impose on it order, democracy and freedom.

Civil war: Lebanon. Lebanon is a country with a peculiar topography: a small country of high mountain ranges and isolated valleys. As a result, it has attracted throughout the centuries communities of persecuted minorities, who found refuge there. Today there are, side by side and one against the other, four ethno-religious communities: Christians, Sunnis, Shiites and Druse. Within the Christian community, there are several sub-communities, such as Maronites and other ancient sects, mostly hostile to each other. The history of Lebanon abounds in mutual massacres.
Such a situation invites, of course, interference by neighbors and foreign powers, each wanting to stir the pot for its own advantage. Syria, Israel, the United States and France, the former colonial master, are all involved.
Exactly 50 years ago a secret, heated debate took place among the leaders of Israel. David Ben-Gurion (then Minister of Defense) and Moshe Dayan (the army Chief-of-Staff) had a brilliant idea: to invade Lebanon, impose on it a “Christian major” as dictator and turn it into an Israeli protectorate. Moshe Sharett, the then Prime Minister, attacked this idea fervently. In a lengthy, closely argued letter, which has been preserved for history, he ridiculed the total ignorance of the proponents of this idea in face of the incredibly fragile complexity of the Lebanese social structure. Any adventure, he warned, would end in disaster.
At the time, Sharett won. But 27 years later, Menachem Begin and Ariel Sharon did exactly what Ben-Gurion and Dayan had proposed. The result was exactly as foreseen by Sharett.


The Next Crusades

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 12 March 2005 02:00 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
An American and a Soviet soldier meet in Berlin in 1945 and get into an argument about which of their countries is more democratic.

“Why,” the American said, “I can stand in the middle of Times Square and shout ‘President Truman is a scoundrel’ and nothing will happen to me!”

“Big deal,” the Russian retorted, “I can stand in the middle of Red Square and shout ‘Truman is a scoundrel’ and nothing will happen to me!”

It is perhaps this story that inspired Natan Sharansky’s theory that the ultimate test of democracy is that a person can stand in the town square and denounce his government, without anything happening to him. True, but rather simplistic, I would say. Simplistic enough to catch the imagination of that other great thinker, George W. Bush.

When Israelis heard for the first time about Bush citing Sharansky as his guide and mentor, they gasped in disbelief. Sharansky? Our Sharansky?

To explain this reaction, one has to go back a little bit. We first heard of Natan Sharansky (actually Anatoliy Shcharansky, but the name was simplified and Hebrewized when he came here) as a “dissident” in the Soviet Union. After attracting international attention in Moscow, he was arrested by the KGB and sentenced for treason, in what looked like a particularly clumsy attempt to silence him. As we heard it, he was not broken in the hell of the Gulag but remained a proud fighter for his rights and ideas. A huge international campaign demanded his release. In the end the Soviets decided to get rid of him and exchanged him for a valuable Soviet spy held in America. The picture of this small but upright figure crossing the bridge in Berlin has remained imprinted in our memories.



Bush’s Guru

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 12 March 2005 02:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just to let you know that I do read along as your archive grows, CMOT.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 March 2005 11:53 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It was an impressive ceremony: the UN Secretary-General, presidents, ministers, prime ministers and notables from 40 countries gathered in Jerusalem to inaugurate the new Holocaust museum of Yad Vashem - only a few months after the mighty of the earth had gathered to commemorate the liberation of Auschwitz.

From the well-chosen - as usual - words from Joschka Fischer, the German Foreign Minister, to the tortured - as usual - face of Eli Wiesel, the Holocaust professional, it was an appropriate commemoration of the historic crime.

But it was also a great victory for Israeli diplomacy. The chiefs of our Foreign Office openly boasted of this political achievement. The foreign guests met with the Israeli leaders and thus lent their indirect but clear support to Ariel Sharon’s policy.
Altogether, it underlined the ambiguity of the Holocaust commemoration at this time.

When one of the leading Nazis imprisoned in Nuremberg first learned the full dimensions of the Holocaust, he exclaimed: “This will not be forgotten for a thousand years!” He was right. The Holocaust was indeed a unique crime in history.

It is difficult for foreigners to understand that for us in Israel the Shoah is not just a thing of the past. It is a part of the present. An example: at the time of the museum opening, I was flying back from Europe. In the airplane I got into conversation with an Israeli professor I had not known before, and he told me about the various stages of his life. I noticed that he passed quickly over several years of his childhood. When I asked him, be told me that he had been in Theresienstadt. He did not go into detail, so I did not ask what happened to his family.


Remember What? Remember How?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 28 March 2005 11:10 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uri Avnery has written a new article about Sharon and his "disengagement plan" The only problem is that the Webmaster at the Gush Shalom website has yet to add a link to the full essay. I will post the piece as soon as he/she/they give me access to it.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 March 2005 11:32 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's another take on the "disengagement" plan
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 March 2005 05:02 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Just to let you know that I do read along as your archive grows, CMOT.

Yes these archive threads are some fo the best on this site. Thanks CMOT.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 April 2005 12:30 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Last week, the mainstream peace organizations held a demonstration in support of Ariel Sharon’s disengagement plan. I agonized for days about whether to take part or not. The question continues to bother me, and the discussions on this subject are still going on – with crucial votes due in the Knesset this week.

Perhaps the best way to find an answer is to set out the pros and cons.


Weeeeeee! I have it at last.
Paved with Bad Intentions


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Granola Girl
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posted 01 April 2005 01:23 AM      Profile for Granola Girl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have only one thing to say to you CMOT Dibbler.

Sausage? Inna bun?

And that's cutting me own throat, too.

(Oh yes. And good articles too. Apologies for detracting fromt the seriousness of this thread.)

[ 01 April 2005: Message edited by: Granola Girl ]


From: East Van | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
alan crabb
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posted 01 April 2005 05:42 AM      Profile for alan crabb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
when i lived in israel the thing that struck home to me was the incredible arrogance of the israeli's. The same attitude of the colonial masters in India, china and the rest of the british empire and the attitude still of the west ( not geographical but i hope you know what i mean) towards developing countries( which assumes they are undeveloped).
The attitudes i witnessed were either patronising or dismissive.
With that arrogance it's not surprising they treat the Palestinians as they do. Not only are they inferior the savages want to kill us.

From: England | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 April 2005 01:59 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
when i lived in israel the thing that struck home to me was the incredible arrogance of the israeli's.

I have heard that, yes. I find amusing that Israelis consider themselves to be" civilized" Westerners, when in fact half of the population is made up of Arabs Duze, and Saphardim.

The attitude may also have something to do with the roots of Zionism itself, after all the founding of Israel (which involved a great deal of ethnic cleansing and immigration) is essentially a imperialist project. I am not saying that all Zionists are racists, since doing so would mean calling into question the sincerity of people like Amira Hass and Uri Avnery, who until the occupation is ended are my comrades in arms. I won't bad mouth my allies until after the revolution comes.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 03 April 2005 03:23 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We were gazing over the roofs of Cairo through the windows of an elegant, modern office. My companion was a scion of the local aristocracy and one of the founders of Egyptian Marxism.

“We must ally ourselves with the Muslim Brotherhood,” he said.

I was amazed. “But you are a completely secular person!” I exclaimed. “You are striving for a modern society. What do you have in common with those religious fanatics?”

“We Marxists have no roots among the masses,” he sighed. “The Muslim Brothers do. We must ally ourselves with them in order to reach the masses.”

I remarked that this had already failed in Iran, where, for the very same reason, the left-wing Tudeh party had allied itself with Khomeini before the revolution, only to be liquidated by him once he was in power.

“We have no choice,” he said.
This conversation took place more than twenty years ago. I was reminded of it this week, when I saw what is happening in Egypt now.


Djinn in the ballot box


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 03 April 2005 03:41 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That would lovely, thanks. It's odd, I use the same handle over at the SPACE message boards and very few of the Sci Fi geeks who post there seem to know who Cut Me Own Throat Dibbler is. I come here, a forum bursting at the seams with political pundits and radical activists and suddenly everybody seems to know who Dibbler is. Why is that?
quote:
Sausage? Inna bun?

And that's cutting me own throat, too.



From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 10 April 2005 02:08 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As a decent person, I am supposed to feel compassion for the Gush Katif settlers. To embrace them. To shed a tear for their plight.
And indeed, there are grounds for compassion. Human beings uprooted from the soil where they have been living for decades. Middle-aged people compelled to start their lives all over again. Children born there obliged to move to schools in other places. People who have flourishing businesses having to construct new livelihoods, under who knows what conditions.
But however much I try, I really cannot feel much pity for them.


Don't Shoot the Croupier!


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 17 April 2005 08:50 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Next Saturday, 100 days since Abu Mazen (Mahmud Abbas) assumed the office of President of the Palestinian National Authority, Jews will celebrate Passover, in memory of the Exodus from Egypt - one of the great stories in human annals.

The Hundred Days of Abu Mazen


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 25 April 2005 06:23 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
An Iranian technician called Jalal-a-Din Taheri, who had been working at the nuclear reactor at Bushehr, managed to defect to Europe, where he disclosed the Ayatollahs' plans for producing nuclear bombs.

Taheri was acclaimed a hero throughout the world. A number of organizations nominated him for the Nobel Peace Price. President Bush praised his courage. Ariel Sharon invited him to come and live in Israel, even calling him one of the Righteous of the Nations. The Ayatollahs denounced him as a traitor, infidel, Crusader and Zionist.


For Whom the Bells Toll


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 25 April 2005 07:19 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Clever. I was on pins and needles.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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Babbler # 4117

posted 01 May 2005 01:05 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The day before yesterday, two demonstrations were held, just a few dozen kilometers apart.
One took place at the Homesh settlement, not far from Jenin. Tens of thousands of settlers and their sympathizers came to demonstrate against the planned evacuation of this settlement. The demonstrators swore to sabotage the decisions of the government and the Knesset. One of them declared that they could be removed only in coffins draped with the national flag.
Hundreds of soldiers and policemen were stationed along the route to protect the demonstrators against all eventualities. The official Voice of Israel radio told its listeners that the traffic police were acting on instructions from the leaders of the Settlements Council.

At the same time, another demonstration took place at Bil'in, west of Ramallah. The inhabitants of that and the neighboring villages, together with Israeli peace activists, demonstrated against the "Separation Fence" that is being put up on their land.



A Tale of Two Demonstrations

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 May 2005 03:59 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So much for Isreal being a light unto nations eh?
I hope Mr.Avnery is alright.

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 May 2005 04:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
At other places, the rampage was even worse. Muhammad Hatib, one of the village chiefs, noticed a man who, with his face covered, started to throw stones at the soldiers. He ran towards him, shouting: "We decided not to throw stones! If you want to throw stones, do it in your own village, not ours! What village do you come from, anyway?" The man turned towards him and attacked him, at the same time calling out to his associates, tearing the handkerchief from his face and donning a police cap.

Thus the secret came out and was also documented by the cameras: "Arabized" undercover soldiers had been sent into action. These started throwing stones at the security people in order to provide them with a pretext to attack us. The moment they were uncovered, they turned on the demonstrators nearest to them, drew revolvers and started to arrest them. Later on, when it became clear that the events had been recorded by foreign television crews, the police officially confirmed that throwing stones is the method used by "Arabized" undercover soldiers so as to merge with the crowd.


What else needs to be said.

[ 01 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 01 May 2005 05:03 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Makes you wonder how many of those "stone-throwing" incidents we hear about are manufactured excuses to bring the iron fist of the Israeli Army on the Palestinians.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Yonge Street Blue
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posted 02 May 2005 12:08 AM      Profile for Yonge Street Blue        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

The inhabitants of that and the neighboring villages, together with Israeli peace activists, demonstrated against the "Separation Fence" that is being put up on their land.

Apartheid Zionist style.


From: Gananoque, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 May 2005 04:09 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Where is the Palestinian Gandhi?" is a quite popular question, especially abroad. You won't often hear it asked (with the inevitable self-righteous shrug) here in Israel: after all, the Israeli culture itself worships violence, with the semantic field of "war" being the richest in the modern Hebrew language, with militarism as the state religion, and with popular wisdom expressed in rules of thumb such as "where force won't do, try more force."

But Americans love the Gandhi riddle. While their governments give Israel gigantic military aid, private Americans with the best intentions – like actor Ben Kingsley – translate the film Gandhi into Arabic and screen it all over the occupied territories as an example for the Palestinians to follow.

[SNIP]

We've now got a clear confirmation of what Palestinian and Israeli peace activists have been saying all along: the Israeli army would not tolerate a Gandhi-style resistance. Someone up there in the occupation echelons must have studied Ben Kingsley's film long before "the Gandhi Project" got started and reached the conclusion that nonviolent resistance is not in Israel's interest. To thwart this threat, Israel employs soldiers whose task is to turn a peaceful demonstration into a violent one, by infiltrating it undercover and throwing stones at Israeli soldiers. During the demonstration, the army uses these stones as a pretext to break the demonstration by force, using tear gas, salt, or rubber-coated bullets and live ammunition. In the aftermath, this stone-throwing – pictured by army photographers who surely don't miss the stones thrown by their own comrades – enters the world media as propaganda, depicting the peaceful demonstrators as dangerous stone-throwers.


I thought I'd step on the Hacohen pedal first, sorry to steal your thunder CMOT.

[ 02 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 02 May 2005 03:26 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
That would lovely, thanks. It's odd, I use the same handle over at the SPACE message boards and very few of the Sci Fi geeks who post there seem to know who Cut Me Own Throat Dibbler is. I come here, a forum bursting at the seams with political pundits and radical activists and suddenly everybody seems to know who Dibbler is. Why is that?

Isn't SPACE a TV station? The "Sci Fi geeks" there may be a bunch of wannabes who think science fiction is something you watch.
I suspect that political pundits are more likely to be part of reading culture.

Sorry for the drift. And probably should be sorry for the reader's condescension about TV, but too smug to manage it.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 May 2005 03:56 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel employs soldiers whose task is to turn a peaceful demonstration into a violent one, by infiltrating it undercover and throwing stones at Israeli soldiers

There is nothing new about this. Agent provocateurs have been tools of the state for as long as there has been dissent.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Themis
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posted 02 May 2005 04:49 PM      Profile for Themis        Edit/Delete Post
CMOT Dibbler, I just found out about this thread.

Quoting your quote above:

quote:
There is nothing very complicated or mysterious about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Never trust those who present it as an extremely complex issue, with endless political, historical, religious and cultural repercussions, on which you cannot take an informed stand without a Ph.D. in history and three decades of political activity for AIPAC. It's quite simple: the Arab states and the Palestinians have in fact acknowledged Israel's right to exist in peace, if it withdraws from the occupied Palestinian territories taken in 1967; whereas Israel wants to keep these territories, though it doesn't quite know how. The conflict is as simple as that.

Dr. Norman Finkelstein says more or less the same thing here.

But what about the changing demographics? There is obviously the religio-political aspects, but would not the demography also be a stumbling block. I believe it would be and it is therefore wrong to say that "the conflict is simple".

Do you have any views on this aspect of the problem?

[ 03 May 2005: Message edited by: Themis ]


From: Babylon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 02 May 2005 05:16 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Agent provocateurs have been tools of the state for as long as there has been dissent.

Why would governments pay good money, and risk some very embarrassing exposure, when there are invariably hotheads willing to do it for free?

Seems to me like any good sized demo has two inevitables:

1. various "black bloc"/black hoodie/anarchist types thumping their chests and boasting about all the shit they caused.

2. other activists claiming all the shit the anarchists caused was really paid agents provocateurs.

I'm not suggesting that agents provocateurs are imaginary, like Unicorns, but given how many people delight in stirring up trouble, I'd think they'd have mostly gone the way of the chaperone, the matchmaker, or other turn of the century archaisms.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 May 2005 10:55 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why would governments pay good money, and risk some very embarrassing exposure, when there are invariably hotheads willing to do it for free?

It is the embarrassing exposure part of this story you are missing.

You'd do well to read some of the research material before poping of with your 'common sense' Socratic questioning and rationale based on your usual quickie read over of the facts. Especially since the Israeli military admitted that it had agents in the crowd, and wetn on to say that it has them throw stones at Israeli soldiers in order to mingle with the crowd (as part of the cover, don't you know.

Would you consider that your whole presuposition that their are 'hot heads' in the crowd, is based on the impression that you have of persistant instances of violence at Palestinian demonstrations. An impression that could, at least be partly be manufactured as evidenced by IDF admissions, admissions forced by the presence of international media at the event in question:

Please read carefully the following:

quote:
Military sources charged that Barakeh and the commander of the forces at the scene had not exchanged words; the sources added that the undercover forces had only started throwing stones after Palestinian youths had adopted such tactics. "Stone-throwing by the undercover forces is part of the way in which they operate in such instances," the sources said.

From Ha'aretz

Just in case you are wondering the Hebrew version of Ha'aretz identifies the source as Lieutenant Colonel Tzahi. I find it interesting that the copy is different in this regard, but that is another matter.

And on a personal note, demostrations I have attended wich have been organized by PLO/PA people are not your typical anti-globalization protest, with anrachist running around writing "lies" on Newspaper boxes. Those people are in out of their league entirely. PLO/PA parade marshalls are organized as a paramilitary organization (naturally, because they are drawn from the paramilitary wing of the PLO/PA), and the demonstrations have a different character. If the marshalls say throw stones, there will be stone throwing, if they say don't throw stones, there will be no stone throwing, I can assure you of that.

[ 03 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 03 May 2005 01:31 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You'd do well to read some of the research material before popping of with your 'common sense' Socratic questioning and rationale based on your usual quickie read over of the facts.

Now, now. To his credit, Magoo has made some decent contributions to "Foodie" threads.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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Babbler # 4117

posted 03 May 2005 10:13 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just in case you are wondering the Hebrew version of Ha'aretz identifies the source as Lieutenant Colonel Tzahi. I find it interesting that the copy is different in this regard, but that is another matter.


*thread drift*
You speak Hebrew? Cool!


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 14 May 2005 02:53 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The uproar has been raging for two weeks so far, and is showing no sign of abating. Israel is shaken to the core - is it the postponed "disengagement plan? Is it the killing of demonstrators against the Wall? No, it's a song.

Like a devout Christian, Naomi Shemer confessed, on her deathbed, to the greatest sin of her life: her immortal song, "Jerusalem of Gold", is a copy of a Basque lullaby she heard some years earlier from a Spanish singer.

The way she told it, she had not stolen the melody consciously, but had absorbed it into her subconscious and taken it for her own. It was, as she put it, "a work accident". She also took pains to stress that she had altered eight notes of the melody, so that, according to the law, she had every right to the royalties she had been receiving for 38 years.



Death of a myth

Is Jerusalem of gold the song that talks about Arab camels straying and Zion's hills?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 28 May 2005 12:16 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What to do on "Herzl Day", the anniversary of the birth of the founder of the Zionist movement - officially celebrated this week for the first time? How to honor the memory of this strange man, who still has such an enormous impact on our lives?

Wagner at the Memorial


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 02 June 2005 05:49 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Perhaps there are countries where drivers stuck in traffic jams don't get annoyed. They know they can do nothing about it, so they wait patiently. Think their own thoughts, listen to the radio or read until the jam disperses.

Buying off the settlers

[ 02 June 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 04 June 2005 12:28 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Themis:
CMOT Dibbler, I just found out about this thread.

Quoting your quote above:

Dr. Norman Finkelstein says more or less the same thing here.

But what about the changing demographics? There is obviously the religio-political aspects, but would not the demography also be a stumbling block. I believe it would be and it is therefore wrong to say that "the conflict is simple".

Do you have any views on this aspect of the problem?

[ 03 May 2005: Message edited by: Themis ]


Great a quote from "Dr." Finklestein the historian on a road tour of his book the Halocaust Indusrty. Very credible guy....


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 04 June 2005 12:38 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dr. Finkelstein holds a valid doctorate from a university. You should do him the courtesy of referring to him by his proper title.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 04 June 2005 02:24 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Dr. Finkelstein holds a valid doctorate from a university. You should do him the courtesy of referring to him by his proper title.

.

"Dr" Finkelstein is considered very controversial. His recounting of history is perverse and he has no respect from me or many historians.

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 05 June 2005 02:05 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
While the new Chief-of-Staff, Air Force general Dan Halutz, was assuming his new job, I stood with a group of demonstrators at the gate of the General Staff building, to protest against his appointment.

The Bogyman


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 10 June 2005 05:03 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"The President of the United States and the President of the Palestinian Authority!" intoned the voice, as the two leaders appeared before the journalists during the recent visit of Mahmud Abbas to the White House.

Three in a Bed

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 10 June 2005 05:13 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And then there's this:
quote:

BETTER LATE THAN NEVER


After decades of celebrating the day of lies known as "Jerusalem Day" and
mouthing the empty cliches about "United Jerusalem, eternal capital of Israel",
Labour Party leader Shimon Peres this week declared that it had been a mistake
to annex East Jerusalem.


In the same week, the army imposed a curfew on the village of Marda near
Ariel settlement. Under cover of the curfew, more than a thousand olive trees
were cut down. Twenty five villagers were wounded from a massive volley of
tear-gas and "rubber bullets". All of this is part of the erection of "The
Separation Fence" which penetrates 25 kilometres into the West Bank in order to
annex Ariel - which would totally cut the Palestinian territorial continuity.


How long will it take until we hear from Mr.Peres that this, too, was
grave mistake





I really do think that a viable palestinian state is closer to being founded in the West bank and Gaza then it has been for many years. Here's hoping.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 10 June 2005 05:53 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
There are 411,000 Israeli settlers living on occuppied territory. Their numbers are growing at a rate of 6% per year. That means that, at the current rate of growth, their numbers double every 12 years.

Or, to look at it another way, in the increasingly unlikely event that the state of Israel removes 8,000 settlers from Gaza, the settlement movement will replace those numbers in three months.

An optimistic nature is a blessing, but from where I'm sitting, there's not a lot of hope.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 10 June 2005 06:23 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The American empire will collapse in the next 10 years, at which point Isreal (if it wants to survive)will have to end the occupation and start rebuilding it's crumbling welfare state.
There is hope.

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 10 June 2005 09:45 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
No one is more anxious than I for the Napolean wannabes in the White House and the Pentagon to get their comeuppence. But it won't happen all at once, and it's doubtful it will even be well under way within the next 10 years.

We have a huge base of resources and know-how to squander on various unwinnable wars before we will collapse. There is a giantic reserve of patriotic loyalty and social cohension to be undermined by corporate corruption and plutocratic, secretive government. I'd put our fall at about 50 years from today. This kind of slow decline is consistant with the behavior of empires through history. Rome wasn't sacked in a day.

Long before the US collapses, the demographics and economics of Israel should bring them to dire straits -- although that won't necessarily mean they will end the occupation. If you study Israeli politics closely, you will note that the more time passes, the dysfunctional their political culture becomes, the more numerous and powerful the religious and ultranationalist forces become.

Take away American support, and they will not do anything as sensible as rebuilding their welfare state. Their paranoia will deepen, their acts will become more sadistic and irrational, and the voices of sanity, who are also the wealthiest and most cosmopolitian Israelis, will abandon the country en masse, as they did in the 80s. This will strength the Talibanesque forces in Israeli society all the more.

When you're in a corner -- and progressive people everywhere are in a corner today -- it's hard not to comfort yourself with the notion the impersonal forces of history will sweep away your enemies. And so they may. But unless we put great thought and effort into managing that decline, we are likely to fall into the abyss right along with our tormentors.

[ 11 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 11 June 2005 12:34 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...the voices of sanity, who are also the wealthiest and most cosmopolitian Israelis, will abandon the country en masse, as they did in the 80s.

Why did they abandon the country in the 80's?

Where did they go?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 11 June 2005 04:32 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
It's quite late, so let me give the short version and I'll find you some links tomorrow.

In the 80s, Israel experienced high inflation, economic stagnation, the war with Lebanon, and the first Intifada. Yearly emmigration statistics were in the low six figures.

They went were you would expect them to go; Europe and America. It is hard to know their numbers because Israel continues to count them ever if they do not live in Israel.

This dynamic was not so much halted as swamped by aliyah from the FSU in the 90s. At the same time, the Oslo agreements were signed, and on the back of that, and the general economic upswing of the 90s, Israel's economy boomed and the hemmoraging of Jews stopped.

Since this touches on my favorite subject, let me say something about demographics, as it relates to the conflict.

The demographics of Israel are a complicated, but fascinating study, which I recommend to anyone who wants to understand want's going on over there; if it's about any one thing, it's about demographics, and not just "Jews" vs. "Palestinians." There are secular Jews, Jews who are Jewish according to the law of return but not according to the state rabbis, "Jews" who made up a story about a Jewish grandparent to get in on the economic boom, Jews who have convented to Christianity, Ashkenazis, Sephardrim, religious, ultra-othodox, black Jews (Ethiopeans), American Jews, kibbutniks, and more.

On the Palestinian side you have the Beoduin, the Druze, the Armenians, the Christians, the Sunnis, Shia and Sufis. You have secular and religious, Israeli Arab, refugees, non-refugees, residents and Palestinians in the Dispora. There are red-haired Palestinians desended from the Crusaders and dozens of Christian sects.

Each group has its own politics, and, just as important, its own patterns of migration and natural growth. All these are crucial to the war over land and the "Jewish majority," which is, in short, what the entire war is all about.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 11 June 2005 08:56 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
A relevant, if hostile, analysis from a pro-Zionist academic:

But before turning to the “Palestinian Question,” consider the improbable success, relatively speaking, of Israel’s experience with deep cultural differences within the Jewish majority, fortuitous product of a sui generis amalgam of settler nationalism, socialist humanism, and multicultural accommodation. The cleavages in Israel—between immigrants and natives, the secular and the religious, not to mention the classical binary between the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim (which itself elides finer cultural distinctions)—would be enough to paralyze and divide any society under far less strenuous circumstances.

Even so, despite successive destabilizing waves of migration, not to mention periodic (arguably permanent) political crises, there is a high degree of social solidarity among Israel’s roughly 5 million Jewish citizens, as well as a nontrivial minority of its 1 million Arab citizens. In large part, this reflects the coalitional imperative in a democratic polity. Assimilationist programs have been met with disfavor in many communities, a disfavor then translated into votes, thus forcing existing political elites to welcome newcomers on more or less their own terms—a process which has involved many a charismatic politician, including some as demagogic as Azmi Bishara, leading his coethnics to the bargaining table. The tenacity of ethnic and other subnational identities has thus not precluded the creation of common bonds.

Despite notable exceptions—the celebrated Bedouins of the I.D.F. come to mind—the great exception to this broadening of loyalty has been the Arab minority. In light of a daunting demographic picture in which the Russian influx, in all likelihood the last major wave of Jewish immigration to Israel, has been exhausted, Jewish emigration from Israel is rising (of high human-capital individuals, no less), and high Arab birthrates, this failure represents nothing less than a disaster. And so Azmi Bishara’s vision for the Israeli future may prove more salient than the various concessions proposed by Shimon Peres and others.


link


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 11 June 2005 09:08 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
A good excerpt that hits the main points:

Demography has been inextricably linked to politics and public policy in Israel since the establishment of the state in 1948 (and even before). This is reinforced by two key issues on the Israeli agenda--security and national identity(15) (Meyers, 1998). . . Zionist goals were further institutionalized with the creation of a Minister of Immigration, and ideologically buttressed by references to Jewish immigrants as "Olim"(the ascending) and the stigma attached to emigrants as "Yordim" (the descending).

Israel's Zionist ideological goals were extraordinarily successful, as evidenced by its demographic structure, and its absorption of more immigrants, per base population than any other country in the world. With the exception of the 1950s when the government attempted to reduce the number of people through "rules of selection" policy, * ...mass immigration of Jews to Israel has been actively encouraged policy. Between 1948 and 1951, Israel admitted 666,000 Jewish immigrants, mostly from Mediterranean countries and survivors of the Holocaust from Europe, who joined a base population of only 600,000. Since 1989, almost 780,000 immigrants have arrived in Israel, mostly from the former USSR. Thus, Israel's demographic structure today mainly consists of first or second-generation immigrants.(17)

These demographic trends have clearly reflected national goals oriented towards the'ingathering' of Jews and the growth of population resources for security and ideological reasons. In this context, the simultaneous emigration of Israelis (albeit a natural phenomenon for any country) has been particularly problematic for a liberal democracy that cannot contain emigration. While figures have been difficult to accurately chart, and only significant in context of its political significance, it is known that a substantial number of Israeli Jews left the country between the 1950s and 1990s. Until the 1970s, the early 1950s witnessed the highest rate of outflow in Israeli history (see Table 4.1). The proportion of emigrants to immigrants was higher (although the absolute number was lower) in the 1950s than in the late 1970s, a period in which problems of emigration concerned the public .(18)(Clearly, while this newly established liberal democracy could not treat emigration as a crime, as in the early mercantilist period described by Zolberg, Israeli emigrants have been generally stigmatized, both officially and indirectly. * By the late 1970s, the then Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin denounced this emigration, calling Israeli emigrants "the fallen among the weaklings",(19) and the Israeli government openly admitted that this large demographic loss was a matter of serious national concern.

FInitial government plans to encourage residents to return were fairly unsuccessful.(20) These packages included benefits identical to those granted to new immigrants (mainly customs rebates and housing benefits) to those yordim who returned to Israel after being abroad for at least two to five years. In 1980, the Israeli government appointed the then Deputy Prim Minister, Simcha Ehrlich and the Director General of the Jewish Agency, Schmuel Lahis with the tasks of investigating the matter. * * Ehrlich and Lahis were concerned only with yeridah (emigration) to the United States, since it was clear that that country was the major destination for yordim. The Lahis Report, published in 1980, reported between 300,000 and 500,000 yordim in the United States (with the majority of them in New York and Los Angeles). That report reinforced by others at the time suggested that * the loss to Israel of many citizens (most of whom were young and skilled) was bound to have disturbing implications for the demography, economy, morale and defense of the country.(21) The Lahis report pointed out that the yordim themselves were greatly attached to Israel and that this feeling should be nurtured. The Israel Government Yearbooks ever since 1981 declared that measures would be taken to discourage emigration and to persuade the yordim to return to Israel, as well as to increase immigration from both eastern and western countries. The finding of the Lahis Report alarmed the Israeli Jewish public when they were publicized by the media, and the reaction of the government was evidenced by the transfer of activities to the Prime Minister's Office to deter emigration.(22) By the mid-1980s, the Prime Minister's Office along with a special appointed committee consisting of the Directors General of the Ministries of Defense, Education and Culture, Finance, Housing, Labor and Welfare, and chaired by the Director General of the Immigrant Absorption adopted recommendations to deter emigration, which aimed at young persons nearing the age of military service, recommending intensification of education in Zionist values. Despite the repeated government declarations that the problem of Jewish emigration was viewed as a deplorable trend, turn-around was fairly ineffective.

As the Israeli state has matured, and headed towards its 50th year independence celebrations, the question of whether yordim in fact lack Zionist values or patriotism has come to the fore, and several changes in the population structure vis-a-vis nation-state relationship have emerged.

In an age of globalization, yerida (emigration) has been increasingly related to ideological shifts and social changes in Israeli society, that include the decline of the pioneering spirit and the growing ideals of a consumption society which have produced an identity crisis among Israeli(23) The majority of Israeli emigrants can no longer be described as marginal members of society, or 'weaklings'.

By the mid-1980s, it had become clear that Israelis who were acquiring rights of permanent residence in the United States were not only mainly from the upper socio-economic strata of Israeli society, but also larger than comparable positions than nationals of other countries whose total population was far larger than that of Israel. Israeli government officials altering their status to permanent residents of the US for example (i.e., those on category A visas) contrasted dramatically to other Western countries . . .

* The numbers of Israeli academics and professionals who had settled abroad ('the brain drain') posed an important concern for Israeli policy-makers. They included senior scientists, medical personnel, engineers, technicians, and computer specialists who sought abroad professional advancement and increased earnings, not to mention Israeli students who, after studying abroad and graduating found greater rewards abroad.(24) The government has tried to target that part of the population which has been seen to be most apt to emigrate: young persons in their twenties who had completed their period of military service, and were experiencing difficulties in securing independent adequate housing and/or in supporting themselves while pursuing their studies in institutions of higher learning. Nonetheless, the bureaucratic complexity involving the Ministry of Defense, Labour and Welfare, Education and Culture, and Ministry of Construction and Housing, not to mention the Ministry of Finance for implementation have made access to special entitlements such as housing, employment, higher studies and income tax rebates for demobilized soldiers fairly remote.(25)

While these developments continued into the 1990s, the demographic stream has somewhat changed, as have attitudes. Although as mentioned above, there are significant problems with emigration data, the Israeli Border Police and the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics does record the exits and entrances of Israeli residents.

While there is no legal definition of a "yored", as it is impossible to know who has left permanently and who is travelling as a tourist, student or on business, extrapolated data suggest that in the period between 1985-1996, there has been a significant rise in Israeli returns after residing 1 year and more abroad (the OECD definition of 'immigrant') over time (see Table 4.4).

link


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 20 June 2005 12:23 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The experience was almost surrealistic: I was in a hall in the centre of Gaza, facing some 500 people, all of them bearded men, nearly all of them Hamas militants. The Hamas movement officially opposes the very existence of the State of Israel, and here I stand on the podium speaking in Hebrew about peace between Israel and the future State of Palestine

Red Herring


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2005 06:36 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Forget everything I wrote in this post.

[ 23 June 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 June 2005 06:39 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting article: I was looking for (and I found) this:

quote:
Sharon now demands the exclusion of Hamas from the elections, as long as they do not officially recognize the State of Israel and abjure terrorism. More than that: he has already declared that there will be no peace negotiations until the Palestinian Authority destroys the "terror infrastructure" (meaning: Hamas) and disarms it.

Everybody! One more TIME! Can you say: "no partner for peace! No partner for peace! No partner for peace!"

I've never understood how people can actually be fooled into believing that Sharon supports some kind of peace process, when he wont even negotiate with the people he is at war with. Who else do yo unegotiate with? The Dutch?

Israel isn't at war with the Dutch. They are at war with Hamas, however.

The only kind of peace negotiations Sharon is interested in is negotiation over pieces of land for his "development" "interests."


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 26 June 2005 01:43 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This week, the country was shocked by a terrifying train accident. A heavy truck was crossing the tracks as a train approached at high speed. The locomotive driver saw the truck but could not stop in time. The truck driver saw the train but couldn't get off the track in time. Result: many killed, many hurt, a scene of destruction.

The Day After

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 03 July 2005 03:01 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
All the world saw the horror on TV: a Palestinian boy lying on the ground, unconscious. An Israeli soldier bending over him, not knowing what to do. A settler coming up from behind and throwing a stone at the head of the injured Palestinian. Another settler dropping a big stone on him at point-blank range. A bearded medic, also a settler, approaches the wounded boy, hesitates, and then goes away without treating him, pursued by the chants of a chorus of settler boys and girls: "Let him die! Let him die!"

Arik's Horror Show


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 09 July 2005 07:56 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A visitor to Israel at this time may get the impression that the country is in the throes of a contest between two football teams - orange and blue.

Thousands of cars are already flying ribbons with these colors, mostly from the antennas. This is very striking on the roads: those who fly different colors are treating each other with hostility, also expressed by their driving, while those who fly the same color exude a civility that is quite foreign to Israeli highways.


The War of the Colors


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 July 2005 07:40 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess this thread will likely close soon. I want to thank you for putting it together. Perhaps its soon time to strike premetively and start a new one. Its a great record! Good work.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 July 2005 11:29 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball is remarkably prescient!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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