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Author Topic: Arafat dead... media held for questioning
Le Téléspectateur
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posted 07 November 2004 11:50 PM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does anyone find it strange how Arafat has essentially been pronounced dead?

In fact he's been reported dead a handful of times in the last couple weeks as he remained in a coma.(That journalist who cajoled the Bush sound bite comes to mind)

I've seen at least two a&e biography-type-things in the last week.

What's going to happen when he really dies, now that the cat is already out of the bag?

It seems a bit anti-climactic.


From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boydfish
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posted 08 November 2004 02:53 AM      Profile for Boydfish     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All I know is at this point, for the last two weeks, every stringer and spook that has ever worked for the state of Israel has been making sure that thier whereabouts and activities have been duly recorded and confirmed by independent witnesses, creating bomb-proof alibis that they had nothing to do with it!
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Michelle
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posted 08 November 2004 08:29 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On the news this morning, it said that his wife was accusing the interim leaders of Palestine of wanting to "bury him alive". This story just gets odder and odder.

BTW, shouldn't this be in the Middle East forum? I'll move it there now.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 08 November 2004 08:42 AM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
This is standard practice when a major political figure is dying. It happened most recently with Reagan and Trudeau, but it goes back a long way.

It was most famously satirized following the death of Spanish dictator Generalissimo Francisco Franco. For weeks after his death, Chevy Chase would announce on Saturday Night Live that he was "still dead."


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Wilf Day
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posted 08 November 2004 09:49 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Never overlook the possible simple explanation: if they gave him a general anaesthetic and he had a bad reaction, the hospital has a negligence issue to try to cover up or finesse.
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Doug
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posted 09 November 2004 12:30 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Achieving an anti-climactic reaction is probably the point. That or they've made him Schrodinger's Leader and he's both alive and dead until they open the box.
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DrConway
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posted 10 November 2004 12:46 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doug: Took the words out of my mouth

Arafat burial preparations under way

quote:
RAMALLAH, West Bank (CNN) -- Preparations were under way in Ramallah on Wednesday for the burial of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, who is gravely ill in a Paris hospital.

Bulldozers and trucks were busy preparing for the burial at Palestinian Authority headquarters, moving burned-out cars, rubble of destroyed buildings and other debris left from three years of the renewed intifada.


Still can't figure out if he's alive or dead, but they sure aren't taking any chances.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 November 2004 01:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Achieving an anti-climactic reaction is probably the point. That or they've made him Schrodinger's Leader and he's both alive and dead until they open the box.

Yes.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
JBG
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posted 11 November 2004 02:15 AM      Profile for JBG     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oops, double post.

[ 11 November 2004: Message edited by: JBG ]


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JBG
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posted 11 November 2004 02:16 AM      Profile for JBG     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Post moved to other "Arafat" thread where I should have posted it.

[ 11 November 2004: Message edited by: JBG ]


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Hailey
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posted 11 November 2004 02:17 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't believe they won't allow a dead man to be buried in the place of his choosing.
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JBG
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posted 11 November 2004 02:19 AM      Profile for JBG     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:
I can't believe they won't allow a dead man to be buried in the place of his choosing.

For one thing, the Temple Mount is structurally unsound and the crowds could cause a collapse and a real slaughter of innocents, not that certain of those people would mind. For another thing, he doesn't deserve it.

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Mr. Magoo
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posted 11 November 2004 02:21 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
He was a man of "pieces", a man who followed in Alfred Nobel's great tradition as the inventor of dynamite in finding inventive uses for it.

You've got the whole rest of your life to score a point. What's the rush?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 11 November 2004 02:40 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
JBG...who gets to decide who deserves it?...And if he doesn't deserve it..who does...Mr. Sharon?
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Cueball
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posted 11 November 2004 07:53 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyway, it was just pointed out to me that they kept kig Hussein of Jordan on life support for a week when he was in Paris as well. The tradition among Muslims is to bury the dead within 24 hours. It is likely the long delayed announcement had a lot to do with them deciding where to bury the body, etc, given Sharon's petty frame of mind.

It seems the master escape artist has once again frustrated Sharon's attempts to trap and kill him. Last laugh is on Arik, I'm afraid.

[ 11 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 11 November 2004 08:37 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:
JBG...who gets to decide who deserves it?...And if he doesn't deserve it..who does...Mr. Sharon?

hailey as far as i know their are 2 parts to what is known as temple mount.
1 is the western wall.

the second is the area that includes the mosques and i think it is called rebeccas tomb. this second area is controled by muslem "caretakers" of the holy sites. they control who enters and leaves the tomb, the dome of the rock and the other mosque (i forget its name).

i heard today that it would be the muslem keepers of the islamic sites that woudl decide who can be buried there.


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Hinterland
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posted 11 November 2004 09:10 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
hailey as far as i know their are 2 parts to what is known as temple mount.
1 is the western wall.

Also called Ha-Kotel or The Wailing Wall

quote:
the second is the area that includes the mosques and i think it is called rebeccas tomb

The Arabs call the entire complex Haram-al-Sharif.

quote:
this second area is controled by muslem "caretakers" of the holy sites. they control who enters and leaves the tomb, the dome of the rock and the other mosque (i forget its name).

What tomb? Anyway, it's the Al-Aqsa Mosque. The Golden Dome of the Rock is a ceremonial mosque, the Al-Aqsa is a "working" one.

The "Holy of Holies" is supposedly located on the spot where the Dome of the Rock is now located. Certain pious Jews will not enter that area of the Temple Mount because of ritual concerns.

[ 11 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 November 2004 06:29 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israeli ambassador slams French for falsified Arafat death certificate

quote:
Israel's ambassador criticised the French government for issuing a death certificate for Yasser Arafat stating his place of birth as Jerusalem.

"I cannot understand how the French government agreed to issue a death certificate based on false information," ambassador Nissim Zvili told a press conference in Montpellier.

Municipal officials at Clamart, the suburb of Paris where Arafat died on November 11, said they issued the document based of a family record book issued by the French foreign ministry in 1996, after Suha Arafat became a naturalized citizen of the Third Republic.


Seems that the media's not the only one being questioned here.

However, I think the bottom part of the article displays such overwrought crap as to be embarassing:

quote:
Last month, Zvili said that a growing number of members of the Jewish community in France are questioning their whole future in the country amid a rise in anti-Semitism.

"The phenomenon of anti-Semitism in France has reached worrying proportions. There have been lots of attacks against Jews, against people and their possessions, and fear is becoming deep-rooted in the Jewish community," he said.

Between 2,000-2,500 Jews are leaving France each year for Israel, according to the ambassador.


Yes, according to the ambassador, who has a partisan interest in scaring more people into coming to Israel to try and defuse a demographic "time bomb".


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Frac Tal
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posted 28 November 2004 06:54 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
Do you have a problem with Jews emigrating to Israel, Dr. Conway?
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DrConway
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posted 28 November 2004 07:10 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have a problem with the Israeli Government encouraging immigration under what might be termed false pretences.
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miles
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posted 28 November 2004 07:50 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
DrC do you know if the allegations about Arafat not being born in Jerusalem are correct? I recall a biography on either a and e or bio channel stated that he was born in Cairo.
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DrConway
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posted 28 November 2004 08:03 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't really care where he was born. You can go find out for yourself if you're so interested.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 28 November 2004 08:08 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
I don't really care where he was born. You can go find out for yourself if you're so interested.

I was asking because of the article that you posted. And since the last part about the government trying to get immigration for the wrong reasons was after the part discussing where Arafat was born. I thought that you might have some insite.


According to the nobel prize site nobelprize.org

quote:
Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini was born on 24 August 1929 in Cairo Besides Cairo, other sources mention Jerusalem and Gaza as his birthplace , his father a textile merchant who was a Palestinian with some Egyptian ancestry, his mother from an old Palestinian family in Jerusalem.

So DrC I ask again. Do you have any idea where he was actually born? Were the Israelis correct in this article?

The immigration part seems to be a replay of what Sharon said a couple of months back and that the French protested. To me it is not a new story. But then again ...everything in the middle east can change day by day by day

[ 28 November 2004: Message edited by: miles ]


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 November 2004 08:14 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why the fuck are you wasting my fucking asking me questions about Arafat's fucking birthplace? I don't give a flying fuck where he was born, so go do your own fucking research.

Do I make myself fucking clear?


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Hephaestion
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posted 28 November 2004 08:33 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Doc's got his claws unsheathed... better step lively, Miles!
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Cueball
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posted 28 November 2004 08:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Miles. There is quite a funny tragi-comic parody of the effects of the introduction of modern passport and citizenship laws on the happless people of Germany, Belgium and France written by B. Traven, called "Death Ship." Traven is known for his classic Treasure of the Sierra Madre.

In Europe, before WW1, most people did not carry passports. People on Alsasse Lorraine who were of Germanic origin, were Germans, people of French origin French. People freely moved from one side of the "border" to another almost undisturbed by officialdom of any kind. States were mostly concerned with securing tariffs through shipping and or through the rail lines. That is Europe in the Nineteen Twenties.

Likewise, the Arab states in the 1940's, newly evolving from the ruins of the Ottoman empire, can not be said to have anywhere near the kind of sophisticated state infrastructure as that of Europe even in the twenties. The kind of officious preverication that some comentators are trying to evoke by insisting that the place of Arafat's birth means something, is based on a conception of citizenship that until very recently didn't exist even in Europe.

Arafat is Palestinian because he was born into a Palestinian family -- it is that simple. Palestinians are not Egyptians, there is a distinct cultural and dialect divide between the two, if anything Arafat's family culturally and lingustically has more in common with Iraqis, than Egyptains.

Many Palestinians were driven away by the constant fighting, in and around Jerusalem, and the occasional evacuations forced upon Palestinians by Israelis during that period, who were determined to make life as uncomortable as possible for the indiginous Arab population. Given these facts, Zionist who insist on making an issue of the exact place of birth an issue are engaged in an exacting kind of disingenous thought that avails the needs of propganda and nothing more.

There is a big difference between a refugee family that directly connects it heritage within the span of a generation, and those who connect it through an ancient text written more than 2000 years ago.

One is reality, the other is mythology.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 28 November 2004 08:47 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks Cueball. That was why I was confused about the first part of the article and the reation I have seen in the worlds press as to the place of birth.

I did not know if it was a mountain out of a moehill, propoganda, or truth.

I guess it is like the country of Poland that according to "Paris 1919" was created again after WW1. But whose borders where fluid depending upon the year, ruler and area


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 November 2004 09:24 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Edward Said, has an interesting autobiography, called "out of place."

He is from a Palestinian Christian, and Palestinian-American family with strong ties in Bethlehem, Nazareth, his mom was educated Catholic French in Beriut. He too, spent most of his youth in Egypt, and the Egyptians certainly did not think he and his family were Egyptian. They called the people from the north the Shami people.


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lagatta
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posted 28 November 2004 10:12 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The lack of modern attention to "citizenship" applied as well to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, a multinational entity like the Ottoman Empire. Freud's family hailed from Moravia, for example.

Indeed, it is odd to discount family origins, when the Zionist claim to Israel is based on pre-diaspora Jewish inhabitation. (Obviously most Jews settling in Palestine because they were fleeing the Nazis or parked in postwar DP camps had far more immediate reasons to seek a place to live). But the ideology bases the ownership claim on the history of Biblical times, or soon after.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 November 2004 11:07 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But the ideology bases the ownership claim on the history of Biblical times, or soon after.

This part confuses me, because from what I remember of the Bible, Abraham and his tribe came from Mesopotamia, not Palestine.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

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