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Author Topic: Arafat
Cueball
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posted 07 November 2004 05:19 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 07 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 07 November 2004 08:56 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee, he was a pretty handsome guy when he was young, huh?

Is this a memorial thread, then? Has he died? I haven't seen the news in the last day or two.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 07 November 2004 09:01 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The CBC radio news, on right now, says there are reports that Arafat is suffering from liver failure.

But he is still alive. Until just now, I couldn't find any other overnight developments.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 07 November 2004 06:33 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh I thought it might be cool just to do a thread on Arafat, who he was, etc, given the state of things. For people who wanna talk about what he did in his life, (not who he was doing.)

He may be dead, he may be not. Even if he is they may not tell us for a while, until they fix up the shop. Liver failure sounds about right, given the symptoms.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 07 November 2004 07:00 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is a start. Arafat's single greatest achievement had less to do with the Arab/Israeli issue, than many people think. Mostly Palestinian issues are seen within the context of the Arab/Israel struggle as viewed by the west. Not much attention is paid to inner workings of post-colonial Arab internal struggles.

It was Arafat who managed to seperate the struggle of the Palestinian liberation movement from its subserviance to the agenedas of the other Arab powers, the Hashemites, and the Nasserites and the Saudis whom all claimed the Palestinian struggle as their own, at various times. It was Arafat who managed to lead the PLO into becoming a movement for Palestinian rights, independent of Israel, but also the Arab dictatorships.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 07 November 2004 07:25 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I will agree with that, Cueball. Whatever disagreements and outright condemnations I have with and of the man, he was able to clearly define Palestinian liberation in and of itself, and to establish a clear leadership to that end.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 07 November 2004 09:36 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know a lot about Arafat, and what I do know is all bad. I've been reading Robert Fisk to much. Since this is supposed to be a positive thread about the man and his time, I won't ruin it by being negative.
The picture is great. I'm sure Mr. Arafat had plenty of women lusting after him in his younger days. I mean, just look at that smile!

I have a Zionist friend who believes that the main goal of Arafat and the Palestinian liberation organization is to drive the Jews out of Israel and claim it all as Palestinian land. Is there a book I can buy him which will disabuse him of this notion? (He's older and doesn't trust the Internet).


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 07 November 2004 10:50 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This article is old, but it's still a decent portait of the man as a politician. You have to love ol' Uri!

quote:
For 50 years he has led the Palestinian struggle for liberation, and for 25 years he has directed the transition from armed struggle for the dismantling of Israel to the effort to reach a political solution with Israel - an immense revolution in the position of the Palestinian people. In this he has kept ahead of most of his colleagues and used all possible methods - diplomacy, violence, ruses, intifada and agreements. But not for a moment did he let the historic aim of the Palestinian people - the establishment of a state with its capital in Jerusalem - out of his sight.

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 November 2004 11:36 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There's no use in reminding the Right that Nelson Mandela, Yitzhaq Shamir and Menachem Begin were "murderers" and "terrorists", not to mention Bar-Kochba and the Maccabees.

Bar-Kochba?

[ 07 November 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 08 November 2004 06:18 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ask, and be linked.

quote:
When Hadrian first became the Roman emperor in 118 C.E., he was sympathetic to the Jews. He allowed them to return to Jerusalem and granted permission for the rebuilding of their Holy Temple. The Jews’ expectations rose as they made organizational and financial preparations to rebuild the temple. Hadrian quickly went back on his word, however, and requested that the site of the Temple be moved from its original location. He also began deporting Jews to North Africa.

The Jews prepared to rebel until Rabbi Joshua ben Hananiah calmed them. The Jews then satisfied themselves with preparing secretly in case a rebellion would later become necessary. They built hideouts in caves and did shoddy work building weapons so that the Romans would reject the weapons and return them to the Jews.

The Jews organized guerilla forces and, in 123 C.E., began launching surprise attacks against the Romans. From that point on, life only got worse for the Jews. Hadrian brought an extra army legion, the "Sixth Ferrata," into Judea to deal with the terrorismHadrian hated "foreign" religions and forbade the Jews to perform circumcisions. He appointed Tinneius Rufus governor of Judea. Rufus was a harsh ruler who took advantage of Jewish women. In approximately 132 C.E., he started to build a temple to Jupiter in place of the Jewish Holy Temple.

As long as Hadrian remained near Judea, the Jews stayed relatively quiet. When he left in 132, the Jews began their rebellion on a large scale. They seized towns and fortified them with walls and subterranean passages. Under the strong leadership of Shimon Bar-Kokhba, the Jews captured approximately 50 strongholds in Palestine and 985 undefended towns and villages, including Jerusalem. Jews from other countries, and even some gentiles, volunteered to join their crusade.

The turning point of the war came when Hadrian sent into Judea one of his best generals from Britain, Julius Severus. Instead of waging open war, Severus besieged Jewish fortresses and held back food until the Jews grew weak. Only then did his attack escalate into outright war.

Following the battle of Bethar, there were a few small skirmishes in the Judean Desert Caves, but the war was essentially over and Judean independence was lost.


Impish emphases mine.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 November 2004 01:12 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Its rich.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 10 November 2004 03:18 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If they vote on "Young Yassir" or "Old Yassir" for the commemorative postage stamp, put my vote down for "Young".
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 November 2004 03:21 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about on balloons?

[ 10 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
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posted 10 November 2004 03:36 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
Imagine what fun pricking that balloon would be.
From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 November 2004 03:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Have you seen the movie?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
periyar
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posted 10 November 2004 04:09 PM      Profile for periyar   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Divine Intervention- I heard about the movie listening to community radio- this guy was reviewing it and went on this rant about how offensive it was to him- i knew the subject matter was about palestine and it was obvious he was a zionist so my husband and i rented it - i have to admit, i only saw half of it cause we put it on late at night after our babies had fallen asleep and i followed suit shortly thereafter. What I did see of it was interesting. It wasn't a conventional narrative and one had to really pay attention -but unfortunately, i was just too tired to give it the committment that it needed.
From: toronto | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 November 2004 06:02 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We had a thread about Divine Intervention back when the picture was in theatres.

The Arafat balloon was an cheeky, inspiring symbol of human freedom unfettered by checkpoints, walls and soldiers' guns.

[ 10 November 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 11 November 2004 02:14 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arafat has died.

quote:
He became one of the most recognizable faces in the world, as leader of the Palestinian cause. Wearing a traditional keffayeh and stubble on his face, Arafat came to represent the struggle of the Palestinian people for a homeland.

President Arafat to be buried in Ramallah


quote:

Senior leader of the Islamic Jihad resistance group Nafez Azzam told Aljazeera that Arafat's death was "the most painful news for us as Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims and all free people in the world".

"We in Islamic Jihad, will make our best efforts to unite the Palestinians and to go on the same path which Arafat devoted his whole life for"

"Arafat did not represent Fatah or Palestine only, but the voice of freedom against aggression and occupation," he said.

During his 40-year struggle, Arafat's name had become a symbol for the Palestinians' resistance against the Israeli occupation, Azzam said, adding that these 40 years of struggle ended on Thursday.

"We had some disagreements," Azzam said. But with his death all these disagreements would be put aside, he said.

"We in Islamic Jihad, will make our best efforts to unite the Palestinians and to go on the same path which Arafat devoted his
whole life for," Azzam said.


[ 11 November 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
JBG
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posted 11 November 2004 02:59 AM      Profile for JBG     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
MY SINCERE EULOGY FOR YASIR ARAFAT, MAN OF HIS PEOPLE

He was a man of "pieces", a man who followed in Alfred Nobel's great tradition as the inventor of dynamite in finding inventive uses for it. A true humanitarian, who donated blood, at great risk to his own health as well as the recipient’s. He was a very smart man; a man who's outsmarted such Western geniuses as Jean Chretien, Gerhardt Schroder, Willy Brandt, Jacques Chirac, Giscard d' Estang, William J. Clinton and many others. A true asset to his people, especially his overseas wife and his PA Associates. He will be missed greatly by many who benefitted from him.


From: Harrison, New York | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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posted 11 November 2004 06:35 AM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good luck in the next old man, good luck...
From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 November 2004 08:06 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He was a symbol of a people still fighting for their liberation and independence, and as such he has earned enormous respect.

It would be nice to think that others, particularly in Western democracies, were civilized enough to recognize most of their own liberation heros and histories in him, to recognize as well that to insult him right now is to insult the Palestinian people, who have the right to define their own symbols, without our condescension.

(And just in passing, I would be interested to know, JBG, whether you wrote that nasty piece of satire yourself.)


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 11 November 2004 08:14 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't mind the satire. Lots of us did it to Reagan, too.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 11 November 2004 09:14 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
As an agnostic, I cannot wish anything "for" Mr. Arafat with any degree of sincerity. I hope DO hope his death does not result in a vicious power struggle, or that the Israelis do not seize this opportunity to promote mischief by attacking the Palestinians.

And, if I am wrong, and Mr. Arafat IS somehow still self-aware and at peace, I fervently wish that this very same sense of peace descend on Ariel Sharon with all due speed.

salaam / shalom

[ 11 November 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 November 2004 09:24 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not that I have any sympathy at all for Chirac's politics, but if I were an epic-heroic leader of his people, or even one of those people, I would want a Chirac, with that sense of historical occasion, of the roots of human nobility in symbols of a still-oppressed collective, to memorialize me and my people.

Chirac's tribute to Arafat is still not up on the CBC website, but there has been a fine summary of it just broadcast. Exceptionally well done.

When they still sing the auld songs about Cherlie, the Scots are under no illusions about the silly throwback they name in those songs. They are singing to, and they know that they are singing to, the people who rose to follow a leader they believed would make them free. Wallace and the Bruce, same thing. Short of independence, symbols are all that people have, and that sometimes for a long time. A very long time.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
brebis noire
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posted 11 November 2004 09:50 AM      Profile for brebis noire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just read most of the long obituary in the NYTimes and I can't help coming out with the feeling that for most political leaders the whole point of their lives and actions is about career survival, as if all of the awful decisions they've made to order killings eventually turns out to be about nothing greater than that. (That's why Gandhi was such a brilliant exception.)
I watched the Fog of War last night and unless I was missing the point, it was again all about a man's career, as if the lives of hundreds of thousands of people were just backdrop. And it often turns out to be that these leaders were just fighting their own monsters inside their heads. (Not that independence, resistance and political sovereignty aren't important; my own political theory is that once we get rid of child abuse, neglect and authoritarian child-raising theories, then we can talk. But that's another subject altogether...)
At least Arafat is free from his own inner monsters now.

From: Quebec | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 11 November 2004 10:05 AM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
as an announcer on the bbc this morning stated, "the long awaited announcement has finally come".

Arafat in his eulogy will be called many things depending on who is talking:father of a people, leader, nation builder, statesman, terrorist, peace maker and many others.

the true testament to yasser arafat is not the disection of his life, the search for answers as to whether he has billions hidden, the answer to the question of what type of man he was.

the real answer to his impact will be felt by how the palestinian people carry on. a lot of nations around the world have felt the terrible sorrow of losing thier leader.

some have honoured the leaders work by continuing on ... others have been swallowed up by turmoil as they lose direction.

i can only hope that the palestinian people follow arafat by moving forward and finishing those that he started ... i can only hope that arafat's memory is used as a rallying point towards that one thing he wanted so much a peaceful existance for his people.

and personally i can only hope that this search for peace for the palestinians will bring peace to the region. and soon the day where palesitian mothers and israeli mothers can brag about their children the doctor or the lawyer rather than mourn the death of their child.


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 11 November 2004 11:07 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, Michelle, I wasn't around when Reagan died. That would have been offensive to me. It's offensive to me, albeit it less, when persons do that with Arafat. I would just think that a board that has outlined standards should include among those standards not demonstrating hatred and mockery to the dead.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 11 November 2004 11:15 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I was one of the people who couldn't be bothered eulogising over the greatness of Reagan, but I'm pretty sure, when I did say something negative or sarcastic, I didn't do it in a thread to honour him or to reflect seriously on his life (...like there would have been such a thread on Babble anyway). I certainly didn't do it as artlessly and humourlessly as attorneys from upstate New York generally do.

[ 11 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 11 November 2004 11:33 AM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peek at your PMs, Hailey.
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 11 November 2004 04:03 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
bbc news just played an interview that i found amazing. in an interview with palestian leaders about the death of arafat that was broadcasted on al jazeera.

khaled mashaal of hamas told al jazeera television that "I hold Israel responsible for the crime of killing Abu Ammar,"

even in death the contraversy remains


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zaklamont
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posted 11 November 2004 09:45 PM      Profile for Zaklamont        Edit/Delete Post
Another view of Arafat (the one that's not so nice).

It don't claim it has a monopoly on the truth about him but neither do I feel it should be ignored...in fact, not at all:

http://www.honestreporting.com/m/legacy.asp


From: Ottawa Ontario | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zaklamont
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posted 11 November 2004 10:10 PM      Profile for Zaklamont        Edit/Delete Post
re: skdadl's comment on Chirac.

My view is that Chirac is skilled at making capital with the Arab world and 3rd World countries , at Israel's expense.

What did the French troops just do in the Ivory Coast? They were out firing directly into crowds from helicopters.

Chirac , as one of the main spokesman for the European Union , is always echoing the old chestnut of "not using disproportionate force".

Well, the time to put into practice the old E.U. litany has come to pass and heavens to betsy - what do Chirac's troops go and do...??

Chirac and the E.U.'s big heartedness stops when they themselves are against the monsters of crowds gone amok , or flying arms and feet or the slit throats of their own civilians on their own turf.

But, let Israel react as they do , and the almighty Lord's European Union's wrath is upon it.

No, the careerist Chirac's amassing of brownie points with the Arab World is just inches away from crumbling - something terrible happening on its own turf. Let them burn synagogues in Paris and attack religious Jews...that's one thing but the day that France looks upon something really frightening done to the non-expendable in their population and poor opportunistic Chirac will actually no longer be able to collect gold stars at the expense of Israel.


From: Ottawa Ontario | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 11 November 2004 10:44 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
What an ugly person you are, Zaklamont.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 12 November 2004 03:01 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow Zak, I went to your link, and rather than an authorative, well researched look at Arafat's political history, the ugly side, I found a propoganda trailer. Nothing, that even remotely proves any of the many allegations asserted by creators, just assertion after assertion.

I was really hoping one of you guys would contribute something substantive. I am always amused that I, a supporter of the Palestinian struggle and the PLO, blemishes and all, have better knowledge of the concrete evidence against Arafat that his vocal detractors.

Its an amazing. It says much about the creators of the short clip, that they choose, as evidence to support their claims and excerpt from an op/ed piece from the Chicago Sun Times.

Blow hards.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 12 November 2004 03:08 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Zak, Europe-bashing is so tacky. I doubt there are many babblers who would contest France's imperialism in the Ivory Coast or elsewhere in West Africa, or who consider Chirac progressive ... or honest for that matter. However there is no evidence whatsoever that any French political force to the left of the Front national harbours any sympathy whatsoever for racist criminals who burn synagogues ... or mosques.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 12 November 2004 03:30 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
New Arafat Needed

quote:
Now that Arafat has reached his biological end, what the Israeli peace camp desperately needs is a new narrative about him. All three narratives mentioned above are inadequate as a basis for a vision of peace: the right-wing hate narrative for obvious reasons, the left-wing "conversion" fairy tale is superficial and inadequate, and Gush Shalom's heroism narrative is so blind-spotted that even many Palestinians reject it.

[SNIP]

This narrative portrays Arafat neither as a subhuman villain nor as a superhuman hero, but as a leader overwhelmed by the forces of history, who chose to save his skin by striking a deal with his enemy and sacrificing his people's interests. His double-talk, corruption, and tyranny are immediate derivatives of that.

Further elaboration is needed to extend this story to the other end of the Oslo process, to explain why Barak's Israel was so eager to put a violent end to a system that served its interests so well (in 1996-1999 Israel saw economic prosperity, the settlements were expanded massively, and there was almost no Palestinian terrorism), and why Arafat was ready to risk his chair (and life) by stopping the collaboration with Israel, thus regaining among the Palestinians much of the popularity he had lost earlier by arresting activists according to Israeli orders and blacklists.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 12 November 2004 04:18 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shatila refugee camp, Lebanon
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 12 November 2004 04:20 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 12 November 2004 04:23 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Ramallah

[ 12 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 12 November 2004 04:30 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Anaheim, CA


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skdadl
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posted 12 November 2004 09:06 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Zaklamont, your post in reply to me is sheer posturing.

I began my post by disassociating myself from Chirac politically, as any good socialist would do. And if you want to start a thread on what is happening right now in Ivory Coast, hey! I'll be there.

It is such a puzzle to me that so many people are willing to think structurally about victors and yet refuse to think structurally about those who have not yet won their battles.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Publically Displayed Name
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posted 12 November 2004 11:14 AM      Profile for Publically Displayed Name        Edit/Delete Post
After Arafat, and after this thread, I now believe the following:

-He proved the ancient Vulcan proverb "Only Nixon could go to China". The Palestinians and the Israelis need a new Palestinian Nixon. I don't think they're going to get one.

-That Arafat was a human symbol of national liberation for the Palestinian people tells us very little about Arafat, or the Palestinian people, but a whole lot about the human symbols of national liberation thoughout history.


From: Canada | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 12 November 2004 01:06 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Palestinians need a new partner for peace. Sharon is a terrorist and an obstacle. He is irrelvant. There can be no peace until Sharon steps a side or is dead.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
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posted 12 November 2004 01:10 PM      Profile for Publically Displayed Name        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
The Palestinians need a new partner for peace. Sharon is a terrorist and an obstacle. He is irrelvant. There can be no peace until Sharon steps a side or is dead.

... or gets voted out. I get the joke, but I don't think Sharon is much of a symbol to his supporters.


From: Canada | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
JBG
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posted 12 November 2004 07:11 PM      Profile for JBG     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
With all of my considerable respect and admiration for skdadl, I must disagree with his conclusions. France's conduct in the Ivory Coast is highly relevant to the issues on this thread; it displays the utter hypocrisy of those who criticize Israel and the United States for actions that countries they support readily take when necessary.
From: Harrison, New York | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 12 November 2004 08:03 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
a) skdadl's a she.

b) whaddaya mean, support? Who here's a Chirac supporter? Or a France in Africa generally supporter? Have the common courtesy to get your facts straight before you start going after people for irrelevancies.

Or, just go back to FD, where even you seem moderate.

Tell me JBG: How does it feel to make common cause here, in this country, with those who refer to muslims as "mooselimbs" and advocate mass slaughter for those who disagree with Israel and the US? And you dare lecture us?


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 12 November 2004 08:34 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The reason there is not the discussion about France's imperialism in Côte d'Ivoire or elsewhere in West Africa that there is about US imperialism in Iraq or the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is that I've never encountered anyone on babble who would defend such French policies or actions. And no, they are not dictated by "necessity". They are dictated by greed, just as the US actions in Iraq are.

Here in Montréal, where most Ivorians here live (as French is the second language and one of the main languages of instruction) there was a demonstration by Ivorians against the French government's actions.

Problem is, the Euro-bashers mix such legitimate and necessary criticism of French imperialism with French "cowardice" in refusing to back Dubya or unconditionally back Sharon, and nasty asides about the social legislation and progress achieved in Europe - through workers' struggles, not by Chirac or his ilk.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 12 November 2004 09:36 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If peace had been achieved according to the terms set forth by Gush shalom in 1994, would Joe Palestinian have been able to dethrone Arafat and replace him with someone who was less authoritarian and more inclined to support social democracy?

Mustapha Barghouti for president!
Marwan Barghouti for vice president! (That one's for you Cue. )


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
August1991
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posted 13 November 2004 05:07 AM      Profile for August1991     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lagatta, how many Iraqis sat in the US Congress? How many Ivorians sat in the French National Assembly?

How many French citizens live now in the Ivory Coast? How many American citizens live in Iraq?

What language does the Ivorian President speak at home? What language does the Iraqi President speak at home?

In 20 years, will American troops be in Iraq? Will French troops be in the Ivory Coast?

Votre comparaison est loufoque.

With that said, I agree that ordinary people in Africa (and Iraq) should have the chance to decide their own fate.

----

As to Arafat, am I the only person in the world to notice that the manner of his death was completely disorganized and confused?

(He was taken incommunicado to a French hospital. There were persistent rumours of AIDS. His Parisian wife attempted to assert authority but others flew in from the West Bank. Even now, no one knows who represents Palestians. Arafat apparently didn't leave a will.)

Need I note that Israel had absolutely nothing to do with this confusion?

Am I wrong to believe that this disorganization was typical of Arafat's leadership?

Can I conclude that, over the past 30 years or so, ordinary Palestinians have suffered because of their incompetent representatives?

[ 13 November 2004: Message edited by: August1991 ]


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lacabombi
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posted 13 November 2004 08:44 AM      Profile for lacabombi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
August1991 wrote about Arafat's "Parisian wife".

What is the relevance of "Parisian" here ? Yes she lived in Paris. Her mother lives in Paris. She is Palestinian.


From: Ontario | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 13 November 2004 09:41 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
1991 claimed that my comparison of US imperialism in Iraq and French imperialism in Côte d'Ivoire was "loufoque" (dodgy, screwy...). I did not say these two cases of imperialism had the same history or took the same form - simply that they were both cases of imperialism (and imperialist violence), both dictated by greed and both to be condemned. Iraqi oil, Ivorian agricultural and mineral resources...

It is true that not only babblers but all commentators tend to have too little to say about the situation in sub-Saharan Africa. A lot of people look upon the desperate situation there and throw up their hands. I agree that is a grave problem, but it is most deserving of its own thread.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 13 November 2004 09:43 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As to Arafat, am I the only person in the world to notice that the manner of his death was completely disorganized and confused?

August, have you ever faced a medical emergency? Seriously, this part of your post left me helpless with laughter. Sooner or later, almost all of us find ourselves blundering to cope with someone else's sudden collapse. No one is ever ready or "organized" in the way you are fantasizing. Dying, or caring for the dying, is not a neat little project that one takes on and does tidily.

And those rumours. God forbid that you should keep them circulating, eh?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 13 November 2004 01:55 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Independent
The dreamer who relied on emotion and failed to protect his own people
Friday, 12th November 2004, by Robert Fisk

E was everything loyal and everything miserable about the Palestinian dream. I have a tape recording of Arafat, sitting with me on a cold, dark mountainside outside the Lebanese port of Tripoli in 1983 where the old man - he was always called the old man, long before he was elderly - was under siege by the Syrian army, another of the Arab "brothers" who wanted to lead the Palestinian cause and ended up fighting Palestinians rather than Israelis.


After reading this, I find myself asking, why would any Palestinian weep over the death of such a man? He was weak, he could not provide his people with an independent state or give them the security they wanted. He let the Israelis rail road him into signing onto Oslo, an agreement that essentially turned him into an Israeli puppet. Why did he enjoy the support of so many people in the territories?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 November 2004 08:35 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You also know that Fisk has his own web site www.robertfisk.com...
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 14 November 2004 08:45 AM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
http://www.pmw.org.il/AFD.html
Some interesting videos.

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Cueball
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posted 14 November 2004 09:05 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks. Its to bad there isn't any point in talking with you, as your head is completely blocked up with hate. Otherwise we coule discuss the nature of those propogandea films.

We might note for instance that Yasser Arafat was not the producer of those shows, no more than say Moses Znaimer is the 'producer' of every single show on City TV in Toronto, even though he likes to claim that he is.

Are you suggesting that Yasser Arafat had the time to vet every single script on PA TV before the Israelis destroyed the broadcast center and stole all the equipment in 2001?

BTW did Israel ever return the equipment it looted?

[ 14 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 14 November 2004 09:24 AM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your response might carry more weight if you laid off the personal attacks and tried to actually debate the point.
"Some interesting videos" says that and nothing more, it was a neutral comment, however your emotional response to it suggests a certain bias in your thinking, or perhaps lack of thinking.

From: top of the food chain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 November 2004 09:41 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't be a coward. You were trying to make a point. Don't back away like the weasel that you are. How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you act like such a dilinquent 10 year old snot, who won't even own up for the point you were trying to make.... sheese!

If you are really interested in the machinations of PA TV, why not start a thread on that. But no.... its here... on the Yasser Arafat is deas thread. Doh! "Just some interesting videos..." what a lying little snot you are... christ! It is not an issue for this thread. The movies you presented have absolutley nothing to do with the death of Yasser Arafat. That is what this thread is about.

Was he the producer on the show?
Was he the writer on the show?
Was he the director?

No. No. And no.

Look if you want to vilify Arafat why don't you present something, about something he was actually involved with?

Your "presentations" are nothing but vague, guilt by association, and are typical of the lax standards of scholarship applied by penny rag tabloid journalists and other muckrakers.

Do yourself a favour... do some research. Finding out nasty stuff that Yasser Arafat was actually involved with is actually not that hard. But that is probably beyond you, as you are too entertained with the fabulations of the pro-Israeli lobby, to be interested in the truth or in the relevant because it better suits the ontology of hate, than the actual facts.

[ 14 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 14 November 2004 03:42 PM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Put it back in your pants, pal. You'll notice that I didn't express an opinion on the videos other than that they were 'interesting'. Now if you have some legitimate arguements about the validity of the message in the videos, let's hear it. If you think that there is a bias in them, well, let's hear that as well. If you think that they show that Arafat talks out of both sides of his mouth, comment on it, if you think he doesn't, comment on that too. Your vitriol exposes your inability to consider both sides of the issue and shows your complete willingness to indulge your hatred of one side while ignoring or whitewashing the sins of the other side.
I simply posted the link to hear some comments on them, perhaps the site has a history of bias or perhaps it's dead on the money and shows something the mainstream media ignores.
Feel free to call me a hair lipped, buck toothed, mouth breathing, slope foreheaded, knock kneed, pigeon toed, pointy eared, big nosed, over weight, skinny, short, tall, average, city slicker, country bumpkin, puppy eating freak if that will help you make your point.

From: top of the food chain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 14 November 2004 05:12 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OS, given your penchant for obtuse propaganda and lack of regard for anything even resembling the truth, why should we regard anything you have to say as credible? I will give you credit though: You do seem now to have discovered how to link to something other than the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. Bravo.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 14 November 2004 05:16 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Though I'd hazard a guess and say OS still reads way too much bloody Newsmax (or Townhall; they're indistinguishable).
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 14 November 2004 07:58 PM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, uh, what did you think of the videos?
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Hinterland
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posted 14 November 2004 08:14 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
What? Don't you have a review from WorldNetDaily you'd like to post?
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 14 November 2004 08:31 PM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There are videos showing Arafat encouraging children to become suicide bombers. Are they legit? Is it just propoganda? Why all the personal attacks on me? Is it that hard to face the ugly truth head on? Are you so desperate to elevate Arafat to hero status that you can't even think about anything that may suggest that he plays the western media for fools? I haven't heard any criticsism of the video's themselves or the message they contain, that suggests that they probably are legit.
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Hinterland
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posted 14 November 2004 08:35 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are you so desperate to elevate Arafat to hero status that you can't even think about anything that may suggest that he plays the western media for fools?

No. It's because you've established a reputation here as a sneering dismissive troll who is not interested in dialogue. It's too late now, OS, to try and engage people in dialogue when you went out of your way for so very long to tell everyone you weren't interested.

[ 14 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 14 November 2004 08:40 PM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nah, I think you just don't want to face the ugly truth and the only way out is to attack the messenger.
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Hinterland
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posted 14 November 2004 08:41 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Whatever blows up your skirt, pal (...or something like that).

[ 14 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 November 2004 04:18 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Put it back in your pants, pal. You'll notice that I didn't express an opinion on the videos other than that they were 'interesting'. Now if you have some legitimate arguements about the validity of the message in the videos, let's hear it. If you think that there is a bias in them, well, let's hear that as well. If you think that they show that Arafat talks out of both sides of his mouth, comment on it, if you think he doesn't, comment on that too. Your vitriol exposes your inability to consider both sides of the issue and shows your complete willingness to indulge your hatred of one side while ignoring or whitewashing the sins of the other side.

My statement saying that it is not that hard to find bad things about Arafat that are true is a sign of my inability to see both sides of the issue?

My exact quote from my previous post:

quote:
Finding out nasty stuff that Yasser Arafat was actually involved with is actually not that hard.

As for the content of your message, and the link, you say I did not respond directly to the point you raised, when in fact I did. Previousluy, I pointed out that Arafat was not the writer, the director or the producer of the show used as evidence in the presentation you linked too. That was a direct response the issue you raised.

Why am I responding to charges made by you saying that I have not done things that I have clearly done?


Can you read?


Are you brain dead?

?

[ 15 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 15 November 2004 07:13 AM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My statement saying that it is not that hard to find bad things about Arafat that are true is a sign of my inability to see both sides of the issue?

So are you saying that the video clip of Arafat encouraging children to become suicide bombers is untrue?

From: top of the food chain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
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posted 15 November 2004 08:29 AM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arafat is a Terrorist

so is Sharon

I hate this "one side is right" mentality used by people in the Isreali-Palistinian conflict. Both sides murder innocent civilians in cold blood. The sooner everyone accepts that, the sooner we can get peace in the area. The Blame-Game is getting quite old.


From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 15 November 2004 10:12 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The individual acts of of violence by the Palestinians are regularly far more atrocious than those of the Israelis.

However, the sheer volume of atrocity and violence directed at the Palestinians by the Israelis is far greater.

Both sides have legitimate historic grievances, and both share an equal load of the blame now.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 November 2004 05:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So are you saying that the video clip of Arafat encouraging children to become suicide bombers is untrue?

What you have there is Arafat saying one thing on one program (not a childrens program,) in response to a specific question about martyrdom, and some things being said on another program, a fictionalized television drama. The juxtoposition of the two is the most simplistic and hamfisted type of propoganda, a kind worthy of the propoganda missives of the Jihadists.

National leaders supporting the view that all persons in a society should be prepared to die for the 'higher cause' of the nation, is no big deal, sorry. This indoctrination begins at an early age. Bush does it, he says the lives lost in Iraq are worthwhile, and the Israelis do it too. Nowhere, however, does Arafat say Childeren should go to war, when they are children.

Here you seem to be insisting on the double standard where Palestinians must conform to Ghandi like passivity, while "we" are allowed any recourse to project "our" values, anywhere, and protect "our" interests, at anytime.

You are a joke sir.

[ 15 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 15 November 2004 06:06 PM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:


D. Political Leadership

The Shahada mandate to children comes from the Palestinian political leadership. Arafat presents the actions of children who intentionally died as Shahids as model behavior. 14-year-old Faris Ouda died a week after having been broadcast on TV hurling stones at an Israeli tank. The story of his successfully achieving death was glorified in the PA official press: "On the day of his death Faris Ouda left his home with a slingshot, after having made himself a wreath decorated with photos of himself and having written on it ’The Brave Shahid Faris Ouda’…" He said to his mother: "Don’t worry, mother, Shahada is sweet…"
[PA official daily, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Nov. 30, 2000, Feb. 3, 2001]

Yasser Arafat has singled out Ouda as a role model for children. Addressing an assembly of summer camp children, he praised Ouda’s action, and called the children there "peers of Faris Ouda." Asked in a TV interview what was his message to Palestinian children, he cited Ouda’s suicide act, saying dead Palestinian children Shahids are "the greatest message to the world."

1. Arafat: Displaying Dead Palestinian Children to the World is "The Greatest Message."Question: "Mr. President, what message would you like to send to the Palestinian people, in general, and, in particular, to the Palestinian children?"

Arafat: "…This child, who is grasping the stone, facing the tank, is it not the greatest message to the world when that hero becomes a Shahid? We are proud of them…" [PATV Jan. 15, 2002]2. Yasser Arafat: Palestinian Children are "Peers" of Faris Ouda. The Children: "Millions of Shahid’s Marching to Jerusalem!" Newscaster: "The president said in his address to these boys and girls [in summer camp] that the [14-year-old] Shahid Faris Ouda and all the Shahids of our people constitute the fundamental and victorious power, Allah willing!"
Arafat to the children: "Oh, children of Palestine! The peers, friends, brothers and sisters of Faris Ouda. The peers of this hero represent this immense and fundamental power that is within, and it shall be victorious,



Allah willing!... Onward together to Jerusalem! Onward together to Jerusalem!"
The children respond, cheering and chanting: "Millions of Shahids marching to Jerusalem



Posted by Cueball;
quote:
Nowhere, however, does Arafat say Childeren should go to war, when they are children.

What exactly is he saying then?
quote:
Arafat: "…This child, who is grasping the stone, facing the tank, is it not the greatest message to the world when that hero becomes a Shahid? We are proud of them…"

[ 15 November 2004: Message edited by: The Oatmeal Savage ]


From: top of the food chain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 15 November 2004 06:15 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just out of curiosity, has there ever been any major political or religious figure in the Arab world who has totally repudiated the death penalty and also renounced all violence and terrorism etc...

Are there any Muslim theologians who reject the death penalty? (Even the Pope condemns that).


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 November 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 15 November 2004 07:54 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is Shahid another word for suicide bomber or does it simply mean "warrior" or "soldier"

[ 15 November 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 November 2004 08:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It can mean martyr, but it has also, I believe, been applied to Allah, as the witness to creation. A Shahid bears witness to the truth of Gods creation. It is a complex term.

Martyrdom

quote:
The Arabic word 'shahid', meaning one who is present as a witness, is translated into English as martyr. Through its usage in the Qur'an and through the manner in which it has been employed in early Islamic history, shahid has come to mean one who bears witness to the truth. This definition sets the ground rules for deciding who qualifies as a martyr and who does not. To attain the status of a martyr it is necessary to die or be slain in the course of defending and upholding the principles of the Qur'an, so martyrdom became valid only under certain specific circumstances.

Therefore, the child on the show, might in fact be saying that to be a martyr (a witness to the truth of Gods creation) is beautiful, in general. It is not necessarily a direct reference to the suicide bombers, but very possibly an general comment on Shahid in religious terms.

St. Stephen's martyrdom is likewise seen as "beautiful" to devout Christians, as is Christs crucifixtion.

Apparently, when talking about the suicide bombers, most Palestinians add a caveat, describing them as conducting Martyr-like operations.

Intifada, is a likewise complex term. It does not mean explicitly "Armed resistance." It means resistance, pure and simple. Someone conducting a sit down strike, would be engaged in an act of Intifada. Therefore calling for Intifada might be something that Ghandi would call for, if he were Palestinian.

[ 15 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 November 2004 08:44 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So in fact OMS, your little propoganda spiels, depend not only on deliberately disingenuous cross-editing of different sources, and selective quotation as a means of impunging the character of Mr. Arafat, they also depends on a singular, and very simplistic interpretation of Arabic.

Even if this simplistic interpretation of the Arab language is unintentional, it speaks of a deep ignorance that undermines the credibility of your source.

A competent researcher, academic, scholar or journalist, would have at least noted the open ended nature of the statement made by the girl in the film. The fact that this is not done in itself shows extreme bias, and ignorance.

She is saying to witness to the truth of gods creation is beautiful, it is up in the air that she is making a specific reference to the suicide bombers, she might even be talking about historical martyrs, etc. etc. Is she engaging in metaphysics?

quote:
"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty" -- Keats.

Our girl says: "Witnessing the TRUTH of Gods creation is BEUATIFUL." Is she examining the metaphysical relationship between truth and beauty, ala Keats, or Emmanuel Levinas.

There are any number of interpretations of this girls statement and what she meant in context. You seem to be under the impression that Palestinians only ever talk about suicide bombings. You don't think they actually talk about religion in a theoretical sense? No matter the bottom line is:

A muslim might very well argue that suicide bombing is not proper Shahid, but none would ever say that Shahid is not beautiful, if it is a correct Shahid, Martydom has a place in Muslim thinking in the same manner as Christians and the crucifixtion. This does not mean that all Christians seek crucifixtion or recommend it.

So, if you are so desperate to find fodder to fulfill your ontology of hate, please find a tree that Mr. Arafat actually pissed on, as opposed to constructing one out of matchsticks.

[ 15 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
August1991
rabble-rouser
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posted 16 November 2004 02:10 AM      Profile for August1991     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
August, have you ever faced a medical emergency? Seriously, this part of your post left me helpless with laughter.
Skedaddle, your post made me laugh too. And I will post here, perhaps to no effect.

I am no Arafat. My death will change nothing in this world yet I have a will with clear instructions. Arafat, on the other hand, leader of the Palestinians, left no instructions, no will.

According to you, Arafat faced a medical emergency. Huh? Arafat, ordinary guy? Huh?

I'm sorry. Arafat died without instructions, without a will. To me, this is indication of his incompetence. If your friend's mother died in the manner of Arafat, and without a will, what would you say to your friend?

Now, imagine that your friend's mom was a President.

[ 16 November 2004: Message edited by: August1991 ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 16 November 2004 05:22 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Unfortunately Arafat seemed to believe that because of the covert nature of much of what had to be done to further the cause of independence, he used a very Byzantine system of financial control. Part of this covert system was deliberately instituted so as to prevent the siezure of PA assets were the US to suddenly decide that the PA itself was a 'terrorist' organization, or that it was funding terrorist activities.

Possible. Yes? This has been charged yes?

It is also true that the PA aparatus was nacent, And when it has evolved at all it was immediatly attacked by Ariel Sharon, its television station sacked, its jails bombed and its security officers gunned down. For instance did you know that the IDF raided and stole all the money out of a bank in Ramallah? Bet you didn't.

You are right, Arafat was not a normal guy and he operated not under normal circumstances. Among other things he spent the last four years virtually imprisoned in Ramallah. These are not the normal conditions under which you or Paul Martin, for instance, live.

Obviously, not creating a will was his way of ensuring that his wife, as closest living relative, would have some direct control over the vector of his personal political legacy, while at the same time not exposing the covert system of finacing. A will would have left a paper trail. He did not want that.

As you know doubt know Arafat lived the life of an ascetic, directing his life toward his politcal mission. Politics, not money was Arafat's primary motive, always. Money was a tool for politics, nothing more. This is what the fight in Paris was about, Queira and Abbas went begging for her financing their continued operations. That is the way Arafat wanted it.

His attitude to Queira and Abbas was always one of extreme ambivalence, and his acceptance of them in the role of PM, was done under explicit preassure by the US. Israel would not negotiate with him. His specific preference for leadership after his death was more or less explicitly Marawan Barghouti, not Quiera or Abbas, whom I believe he felt were fine, when he was able to control their activities, but not when he was gone. Barghouti, interestingly enough, is the only top PA official that the IDF hunted down and then arrested.

He now languishes in an Israeli jail for murder, even though the jurists who convicted him were only able to establish that he gave inflamatory speeches, and in fact admit that they could not tie him to direct knowledge of the murders he has said to have committed.

This is no doubt what the fight in Paris was about. Arafat is using his wife to direct from the grave. Whether Arafat is right in doing this or not is another thing, but it was deliberate, Not a sign of confusion.

Do you see?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 16 November 2004 05:25 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Fidel signs a book of condolences.

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 16 November 2004 05:27 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Also signing a book of condolences.

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Cueball
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posted 16 November 2004 09:46 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Ramallah

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 17 November 2004 12:21 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As you know doubt know Arafat lived the life of an ascetic, directing his life toward his politcal mission.

Maybe he had to live as an ascetic since his wife seemed to be running up his credit card like crazy in her shopping sprees at Christian Dior!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 November 2004 12:49 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dammit, you're right Stockholm! The IOF should send in the gunships and level Ramallah immediately!
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 17 November 2004 02:02 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you read People magazine for content Stockholm.

How do you feel about her position on Oslo? Or her public criticism of Arafat and the PA? How about her refusal of an Israeli VIP pass that would get her front of the line at check points? Or what about her fundraising efforts for charity in the West Bank.

Ok your right, lets talk about women's clothing, and where they shop as that is really all that is relevant about women. Isn't that right?

Look at Queira and his friggin Armani suits and his Italian shoes? Fuck you don't seem to find time to mention that. You are a mendacious and sailently sexist prick arent you?

Those are the kind of cloths that people of power wear. I remember that Arafat, back in the Oslo days, was at a dinner party sitting next to Catherine Deneuve and Suha had to explain who she was to him. Obviously having someone who could help escort him through protocols and whose, who of the European power elite, had a very valuable political function.

Sorry, even I wouldn't go to a party with Catherine Deneuve in Khaki.

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
August1991
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posted 17 November 2004 02:23 AM      Profile for August1991     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Obviously, not creating a will was his way of ensuring that his wife, as closest living relative, would have some direct control over the vector of his personal political legacy, while at the same time not exposing the covert system of finacing. A will would have left a paper trail. He did not want that.
Cueball, in the case of Arafat, I did not mean will in the sense of you or I. I meant "will" in the sense of "I'm leader, I'm going to die. What about my people?"

Arafat was incompetent.

Compare him to Michael Collins, Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi or our own Rene Levesque.


From: Montreal | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 17 November 2004 02:26 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I will in fact compare him to any of those people, I will also compare him to Fidel Castro and also Nasser.

I know very well what kind of will, you are talking about. I am not talking about say "the Will to Power." But legal will.

You are saying that he should have dictated who would follow him in leadership? Or are you still talking about finacing? What are you talking about?

There is a consititution in place. Elections are to take place etc. etc. The constitution is Arafat's "will" so to speak. It is the same kind of will that Nelson Mandela, and Nehru helped write for their people.

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
August1991
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posted 17 November 2004 02:39 AM      Profile for August1991     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You are saying that he should have dictated who would follow him in leadership? Or are you still talking about finacing? What are you talking about?
I am saying that the manner of his death was typical of his leadership. Confused, mismanaged, nonsensical. Sheer incompetence.

You don't have to be an expert on Oslo to draw this conclusion. Arafat's last days were farcical. His leadership was probably the same.

Skedaddle noted that a death in the family is not always simple. I agree. But a competent person, given the stakes, prepares her/his death. Arafat didn't do that. In fact, it appears that he made the problem worse. In direct language, Arafat was a fuck-up.

As I say, compare him with others. The Irish have a country. The Palestinians have, well, what?


From: Montreal | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 17 November 2004 02:48 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes Revolution is just so fucking easy when you are sitting at home. Is it not?

They have a country wich has directly been occupied by the favourite client state of the sole super power in the world.

Nerhu and Ghandi's ability to effectively rest power from the English was a direct consequence of the collapse of the British Empire. The ANC, was able to navigate a difficult course, helped largely by the neutral zone provided by the ongoing afircan conflict as sponserd by the USA and the USSR. It was only when Mandela agreed to drop nationalization of the diamond industry from the ANC program that he was fully welcomed into the club, as an example.

Arafat has left a constitution, and a nacent state. He left legacy of struggle. By your terms Augusto Sandino must have been incompetent, because he could not overcome the fully deployed power of the United States of America.

And it as I directly and clearly established, his intention was to make Suha a power broker against Abbas and Quiera in order to forward the faction he represente in Fatah, the one that is led by Marawan Barghouti, who is in jail, incidentally.

He is in fact thwarting the coupe. It is a sign of keen political incite and imagination, as well as competence.

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
August1991
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posted 17 November 2004 03:33 AM      Profile for August1991     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, please don't be angry with me. I was probably harsh (and perhaps incorrect) describing Arafat as a f**k-up. I don't know.

Arafat's death was profoundly disorganized. On reflection, his leadership was disorganized too. (Jordan, Lebanon, Tunisia.)

The Palestinians are arguably worse off now than in 1955.

Cueball, I request only that you apply the so-called "scientific method" to the question. That is, be an "intelligent skeptic". Have an "open mind".

I met Arafat once in my life. I thought that he was a man who hadn't had a decent night's sleep in five years.


From: Montreal | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 17 November 2004 03:56 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thing is see, I think you have made a political decision. I think you think that Abbas is the way to go. I think, you think that Arafat not endorsing this clear and simple transition to power for Abbas as being a mistake and a sign of confusion.

As you know Abbas's assent to the role of PM was largely engineered by US and Israeli pressure. This was not a legitimate evolution in his eyes. He may have thought that Abbas was a good liutenant, but no a good leader. So, whether or not you agree with this position, it seems that Arafat is in a sense, continuing the highly personalized management style of his life by ensuring that the new generation of people such as Barghouti have leverage in the upcoming power struggle.

I think it is pretty clear that Arafat did not want the PLO and the PA to become soley a tool for maintaining the occupation. As you are know doubt aware, Arafat always kept use of force as an option as a contrast to peace process. I think that he would prefer Barghouti, as a person to forward that mixture of peace process and armed struggle.

He has done this by not establishing that Abbas has clear authority to rule, or that he is 'picked,' so to speak by Arafat. I think he has picked Barghouti.

Perhaps not even that, perhaps he has been very democratic in defining his legacy, and now Palestinians must decide; Intifada (Barghouti) or appeasement (Abbas,) in this sense he stays true to the tradition of "olive branch and gun," which he described in his famous UN speech.

I do not think that he was a theoretical genius, in the sense that Mandela was able to articulate a theoretical politcal vision of liberation, but I think he was a very astute politcal tactician, one who was able to maintain control of a very fractious and internally violent liberation movement. This was no easy task -- through Jordan, through Lebanon, through Tunis, and Oslo, and even at the end.

I mean what do we really know of Mandela? He was great at articulating vision, but he sat out the most of the struggle in prison. Running operations was Oliver Tambo's job, he did the nuts and bolts work of spending the Russians money and keeping the organization together. Not to say that Mandela could not have done it, but we don't know that he could have, for a fact. It seems to me that Arafat had the unusual ability to be both symbol and organizer if not a brilliant theoretician ala Mandela.

I do not think Arafat was incomptent, I think he may have been to clever for his own good sometimes.

Said made some interesting observations about Arafat when they were "still friends," prior to Camp David. At that time it was very difficult for Said to get Arafat to understand the immense complexities of Washington and it multilayered factions and lobbies. Arafat was under the impression, so says Said, that all he had to do was talk to the man in charge (Clinton) and things would be worked out. In other words, and I am loathe to say this, but there was always something of Arafat's leadership style that didn't work in Washington, and with our values and our ways of seeing the world, but they also worked very well in the tradition of inter-Arab politics, where it counted most for him.

This is partly why I have a problem of simply assigning our values, as to what is "competent" and "incompetent" because it must be remembered that Arafat's chief area of work was within the logic of the culture of the people whom he led, and so may seem strange and "confused," to us, when actually he was navigating an extremely complicated and fractious politcal movement with extreme grace under extreme preassure.

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 17 November 2004 06:22 AM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nice whitewash job, Cueball, you might want to take a closer look at some of the policies that you're so desperate to spin.
From: top of the food chain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 17 November 2004 05:33 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see you have stopped nattering on about some girl saying that Shahid is beautiful on tv. Good for you. You know seem to have degenerated into simplistic sweeping slurs, without even the benefit of a source or referencing anything specific.

Which policies are speaking about? Many would count the Oslo 'betrayal' as chief among them. You?

[ 17 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Oatmeal Savage
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posted 17 November 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for The Oatmeal Savage   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Posted by Cueball;

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nowhere, however, does Arafat say Childeren should go to war, when they are children.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What exactly is he saying then?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arafat: "…This child, who is grasping the stone, facing the tank, is it not the greatest message to the world when that hero becomes a Shahid? We are proud of them…"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From: top of the food chain | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 17 November 2004 06:18 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are you saying a child throwing a rock at an occupying tank in his own town is an act of war?
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 17 November 2004 06:58 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, yeah. He is a terrorist don't you know?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 17 November 2004 07:21 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about a serious critique, by someone seriously invested in the Palestinian struggle:

THE DESERTION OF ARAFAT

quote:
Arafat is finished. Why don’t we admit that he can neither lead, nor plan, nor take a single step that makes any difference except to him and his Oslo cronies who have benefited materially from their people’s misery? All the polls show that his presence blocks whatever forward movement might be possible. We need a united leadership capable of thinking, planning and taking decisions, rather than grovelling before the Pope or George Bush while the Israelis kill his people with impunity. True leaders of a resistance movement respond to popular needs, reflect the realities on the ground, and expose themselves to the same dangers and difficulties as everyone else. The struggle for liberation from Israeli occupation is where every Palestinian worth anything now stands. Oslo cannot be warmed over or resuscitated as Arafat and company would like. What is required now are mass actions designed to press on with resistance and liberation, rather than confusing people with talk of a return to Oslo—who can believe the folly of that idea?—or the stupid Mitchell Plan.

What I find most miraculous about those who wish to crush the Palestinian rebellion is how quickly they picked up on the charge of curuption, as made by people such as Said, while missing of course the intent. They charged that Arafat's curruption springs from willingness to sign on to a half-baked peace proposal wich makes the PLO the tool of Israeli oppression. Marvelous how the Orwellian double think allows them to take only the part of the message they want to hear, and ignore the rest of the charge.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 November 2004 03:03 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dershowitz on Arafat
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 19 November 2004 03:16 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess you have to register now to read The Forward. Oh well, I'm sure it was a glowing eulogy. What I'm waiting for is I eagerly look forward to the day when Dershowitz gives as detailed a eulogy for Ariel Sharon. Someone, though, I think, for once, he'll remain silent on the subject, as he and too many other Jews around the world do while the man is still breathing.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 19 November 2004 03:21 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
This is Alan "torture mandate" Dershowitz, right?

I think I'll pass.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 19 November 2004 03:27 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wish i could read the article. It is easier to critisize when one has read the content than to assume what is in it because of past history.

And Josh, many Jews do critisize Sharon. Just because it may not appear on rabble does not mean that it does not exist.


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 19 November 2004 03:29 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is easier to critisize when one has read the content than to assume what is in it because of past history.

Undoubtedly. But it's a safe bet, and I use that sort of thing to save myself time.

Actually, I would read it if I didn't have to register.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 19 November 2004 03:34 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

And Josh, many Jews do critisize Sharon. Just because it may not appear on rabble does not mean that it does not exist.


I'm well aware of that, and it does appear on babble because I'm one. But many more have remained silent. Remained silent while the occupation has deepened, the illegal settlements have expanded and the human rights violations have grown. All in accordance with Sharon's plan of never giving up control of the west bank. If any people should know about danger and moral failing of remaining silent in the face of injustice and oppression, it is the Jews. Yet all too many are continuing to look the other way.

From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 19 November 2004 03:38 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
good point Josh. I would add that some remain silent because they do not want to get "dragged" into a debate over whose death is a worse thing.

Personally, I wish that more moderates from both sides would come forward and condemn together. Not just condemn violence but at the same time and same microphone jointly condemn showing the world that the majority of Jews and Palestinians care and want to be seen and heard.

Thus endeth the sermon


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 19 November 2004 03:39 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just tried to register, actually, and I can't. They don't want me. *sob*

(Or I'm not competent enough to figure it out, more like.)

Anyway, I'm sometimes ready to take one for the team, so I tried but failed. I always find it interesting to read Dershowitz: he is devious and therefore influential, and I think it matters to see what he is writing. It's sort of like reading Michael Ignatieff: painful but important, because you just know that he is going to be parroted.

What a coincidence, too: they have both recently written books that rationalize torture. You'd think that Bush would give them something, eh? Maybe not A-G or Supreme Court, but something.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 19 November 2004 04:03 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow. For $80, I think I'll pass on a subscription. Especially if Alan "I love torture" Dershowitz is a regular contributing author. That seems like a lot for a magazine destined to line the bottom of my e-bird cage.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 November 2004 05:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was wondering where Macabee had gone, it seems the new talking points have been issued, and the clamouring can begin again.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 November 2004 06:02 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I was wondering where Macabee had gone, it seems the new talking points have been issued, and the clamouring can begin again.

Cueball, please send me or post those talking points so we can all see them. You seem to know so much more than anyone else it seems. BTW it doesnt cost a thing to register for the Forward.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 November 2004 06:08 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why should I, when you posted them above, and for free no less! Thanks.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 November 2004 06:49 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Posted what above???
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 November 2004 08:34 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Another long thread.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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