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Author Topic: Attack on Falluja Imminent
Willowdale Wizard
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posted 05 November 2004 11:36 AM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
bbc news:

quote:
The US military has sealed off the rebel-held Iraqi city of Falluja amid speculation an assault is imminent.

All roads in and out of the mainly Sunni Muslim city have been closed by US troops, Reuters reports.

The BBC's Paul Wood, who is with US troops outside Falluja, says Iraqi troops have now arrived at their positions, and final preparations appear to be taking place. He says units are stocking up with large quantities of artillery shells, and the pace of training has increased.

The US military said it had carried out five air strikes within seven hours on Friday, destroying a command post, arms caches and rebel positions.



From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 05 November 2004 11:57 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What(who) else did they destroy? How many will die in the final assault? Is nearly 100,000 not enough?

Remember Grozny?


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 05 November 2004 12:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder whether Ms Hassan is being held in Fallujah.

This is grim. It is being done to shore up Bush's image every bit as much as Allawi's.

The American commander says he's waiting for orders from Allawi. Sure.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 November 2004 12:24 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Have any babblers looked at the sidebar article to Willowdale Wizard's BBC link? It describes the life of people remaining in Falluja awaiting the attack. This is the Holy month of Ramadan, but nobody is partying in the evening. Falluja's best kebab spot was destroyed by bombs...
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 November 2004 06:25 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Trust lagatta to raise the culinary implications of a military assault.
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lagatta
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posted 05 November 2004 06:28 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, hunger and tainted water are big ones, no?
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 06 November 2004 03:31 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I wasn't off by much. Weeks ago, I predicted the Lidice-ization of Fallujah would start on November 3rd.

This evening my dad heard a couple military "experts" on some American TV station calmly explaining how there are no civilians left in Fallujah, only terrorists, so everyone's a "legitimate target".

It's gonna be a long fucking four years.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 November 2004 09:49 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Everyone left is a legitimate target ...

That line has a recent history in discussions in this country and on this board, of course. At least all Canadians have recently agreed that we abhor it. Haven't we?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 06 November 2004 10:03 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think there are at least 100,000 people left in the city - all "terrorists", of course. I made the mistake of reading articles about the "sealing off" and "pounding" of Falluja before turning in; didn't sleep a wink. I'll contact the Iraq solidarity people here - hope there are some actions, whatever we can do to show our disapproval of this barbaric mass murder.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 November 2004 10:05 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
At the end of this Guardian summary of the current situation, there appears this wonderful nugget of news:

quote:
· Mr Zarqawi's al-Qaida in Iraq group called last night for the release of the charity worker Margaret Hassan, and promised to free her if she fell into their hands.

I hope that this is true, and that it may happen.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
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posted 06 November 2004 11:06 AM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
Certainly she would be free if she fell into the "coalition" hands.

Is Zarqawi angling for good press? Is it really that bad?


From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 November 2004 12:40 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it means that Zarqawi's people didn't do the kidnapping.

So the Yanquis are going to destroy Falluja in order to save it, or to bring democracy and freedom to the city?

If God's watching, and keeping score, just like the US Fundamentalists say he does, the people of the USA are in big trouble.


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intheright
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posted 06 November 2004 02:49 PM      Profile for intheright        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
I think it means that Zarqawi's people didn't do the kidnapping.

So the Yanquis are going to destroy Falluja in order to save it, or to bring democracy and freedom to the city?

If God's watching, and keeping score, just like the US Fundamentalists say he does, the people of the USA are in big trouble.


I think if He is keeping score, He will count the houndreds of thousands Saddam killed.


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
RookieActivist
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posted 06 November 2004 02:56 PM      Profile for RookieActivist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What hundreds of thousands?

Piss off troll.


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Contrarian
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posted 06 November 2004 03:13 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
God damned Americans bomb hospital.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 06 November 2004 03:24 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Holy warriors?? Fanatic, prepare to meet fanatic.
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beluga2
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posted 07 November 2004 02:45 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fallujah hasn't even been erased from the map yet, and already the reprisals have begun.

[ 07 November 2004: Message edited by: beluga2 ]


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 November 2004 03:50 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
He will count the houndreds of thousands Saddam killed.

I suppose everything - age, body counts, etc. - is in multiples of seven using dog math.


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beluga2
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posted 07 November 2004 04:09 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by intheright:
I think if He is keeping score, He will count the houndreds of thousands Saddam killed.

No doubt. And since the US supported Saddam while most of those deaths were occurring, I'm sure He will add those deaths to the US's total as well.

Thank you for emphasizing the US government's long-standing tradition of facilitating the murder of Iraqis.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 07 November 2004 04:17 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't want to think about it.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 07 November 2004 10:08 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A sixty-day state of emergency has just been imposed in all of Iraq except the Kurdish areas in the north.

This permits the government to do a number of things: confiscate/outlaw private holdings of weapons, impose curfews, etc.

Will look for a link.


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skdadl
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posted 07 November 2004 10:12 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CBC: Iraq declares state of emergency.
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beluga2
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posted 07 November 2004 02:38 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If it's only now become an "emergency", what the hell was it before?
From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
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posted 07 November 2004 05:02 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for putting up the info and links.

I'll start a thread in the activism section for announcements and call outs for actions against the reinvigorated US death machine.


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beluga2
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posted 07 November 2004 05:02 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excuse me while I fucking puke.

quote:
Sgt. Maj. Carlton W. Kent, the top enlisted Marine in Iraq, told troops the coming battle of Fallujah would be “no different” than the historic fights at Inchon in Korea, the flag-raising victory at Iwo Jima, or the bloody Tet Offensive to remove North Vietnamese from the ancient citadel of Hue in 1968.

“You’re all in the process of making history,” Kent boomed in a clarion voice. “This is another Hue city in the making. I have no doubt, if we do get the word, that each and every one of you is going to do what you have always done – kick some butt.”
...

During the fight, rules of engagement allow US troops to shoot and kill anyone carrying a weapon or driving in Fallujah, a move aimed at allowing US troops to fire on car bombers, Ramos said. Military age males trying to leave the city will be captured or turned back.

“If I see someone who looks like a martyr, driving at high speed toward my unit, I’ll send him to Allah before he gets close,” Ramos said.

...

“This is a whole can of whoop-butt all combined here,” Kent said, surveying the Marines surrounding him.

A pumped-up crowd shouted a deafening “Hoo rah” in response.

As the rally came to a close, the crowd parted to allow Sattler and Kent to walk through, shaking the young fighters’ hands as the Marine hymn, “From the Halls of Montezuma,” played in the background.



From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Broken Arrow
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posted 07 November 2004 05:30 PM      Profile for Broken Arrow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What hundreds of thousands?

Vhat Holocaust, huh?


From: close | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 07 November 2004 06:20 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All the Holocaust stuff is well documented, the only war crime material I have seen on Iraq that is credible is the Halabja attack, and that amounts to 5000.

I don't think people here are gullible enough to outright believe everything coming from the US intelligence community. In Kosovo they claimed 100,000 killed, yet they only have a little over a thousand bodies and they claimed there were WMD in Iraq, there were not, etc. If you have a credible source for figures outside of State Depertment press releases please feel free to share.


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Bubbles
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posted 08 November 2004 12:03 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post
I wonder why the stormtroopers are waiting so long before beginning their attack on Falluja? Are they waitng for all the heavies to get out sothat they will have it a bit easier in their kill to casualty rating. Those 14 year olds they are not letting out could be easy propaganda for the kill skill of the USA marines and co. Or are they hoping for all the heavies to get in and then turn on the flametrowers? If it is going to take 20,000 stormtroopers to subdue Falluja, what will it take to subdue Bagdad when it starts dancing. If it turns in a Warsaw they lose, if it turns into a Stalingrad they lose. Do they not teach history in school?
From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 08 November 2004 12:17 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Broken Arrow:

Vhat Holocaust, huh?


So in almost three decades, Saddam managed a measily hundred-thousand? Jeezus, what I piker - his Washington handlers have matched that in a scant few months. Thank God Almighty that amateur is out and some real professionals are on the job!


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 November 2004 01:47 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If it's only now become an "emergency", what the hell was it before?

From what I've seen of history, governments declare "states of emergency" when they are about to let loose the hounds of hell.

The "emergency" is the pretext and the excuse for whatever atrocities follow.

Expect a bloodbath.

hooah


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 November 2004 08:00 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The assault began last night.

The main target captured so far is a hospital. Grudge match?

quote:
During the siege of Fallujah last April, the hospital was a main source of reports about civilian casualties that US officials insisted were overblown. Those reports generated strong public outrage in Iraq and elsewhere in the Arab world, prompting the Bush administration to call off the offensive.

From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
thebabblerformerlyknownas'larry'
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posted 08 November 2004 04:44 PM      Profile for thebabblerformerlyknownas'larry'     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
[QB] In Kosovo they claimed 100,000 killed, yet they only have a little over a thousand bodies[QB]

The Lancet, which came up with the 100 000 figure for Iraq found 12 000 deaths "directly related to war" and "mostly civilian" from Feb 1998 to June 1999.

It's available as a PDF if you register.


From: Kitchener, Ontario | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 08 November 2004 05:09 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Could the fanatic please stand-up!
quote:
"God's people would be annointed with oil," the chaplain said, as he lightly dabbed oil on the marines' foreheads.
AFP Features full story

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
FakeDesignerWatch
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posted 08 November 2004 05:16 PM      Profile for FakeDesignerWatch   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
It's maddening to think that we live in a world where a woman from small-town USA is shipped to Iraq and says things as bizarre as "you are the pure spotless lamb" before she straps on massive murderous machinery - and many people think this is sane.

Think of the most surreal thing you'll experience this month, and compare it to this.


From: Milan | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
exiled armadillo
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posted 08 November 2004 05:16 PM      Profile for exiled armadillo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Military age males trying to leave the city will be captured or turned back.

This seems like they are creating guerrillas? Are they afraid if they let people leave the guerrillas will too and there will be no one left to kill? So they are rounding up all the men so they can get them in one fell swoop and move on to the next place?

Seems to me that the first person to be contacted by "God" must ahve been dyslexic cause he and his people act more like a Dog.


From: Politicians and diapers should be changed frequently and for the same reason | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 08 November 2004 05:24 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One spoke of their Old Testament hero, a shepherd who would become Israel's king, battling the Philistines some 3,000 years ago.

"Thus David prevailed over the Philistines," the marine said, reading from scripture, and the marines shouted back "Hoorah, King David," using their signature grunt of approval.


Funny how both sides beleive in the David vs. Goliath battle. It seems that it is only reserved for the Judeo-Christian military fundies.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
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posted 08 November 2004 05:29 PM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
the only war crime material I have seen on Iraq that is credible is the Halabja attack, and that amounts to 5000.


I used to believe that too but not so long ago I read a piece (would have to look for it on my drive) by a former CIA agent who worked on the Iraq dossier. He puts doubts on even that atrocity being "the credit" of Saddam. If I remember correctly he lays the blame at Iran.

All that said, I have not encountered one single Saddam lover at all the peace rallies I've been to. He was a murderous bastard but to make up things about him doesn't do anybody but stupid people any good. I'm sure he didn't kill hundreds of thousands.

It's just garbage arguments used by the war mongers.

Now as to the USA and their complicity in the deaths of hundreds of thousands many places come to mind e.g. Indonesia, various Latin American countries, 9-11-1973, Nagasaki not to mention the natives and their dispossession as the very basis of the USA.

(Edited to provide link to article)
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0131-08.htm

[ 08 November 2004: Message edited by: VanLuke ]


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 08 November 2004 05:34 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Every time I see that "their signature grunt of approval" I would laugh if I didn't feel so sick about the whole thing. Is this a macho thing, like gathering in the forest to beat drums and pee in the bushes?
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 08 November 2004 06:12 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
After the WMD and "helps-terrorists" allegations proved to be specious, President Bush and his allies made much of Saddam's suppression of the Shi-ite rebellion in the south, which undoubtedly caused many unnecessary deaths before the Saddam government could be sure they would not be overthrown from within.

And now, the Allawi government, aided by US firepower, must suppress the Sunni uprising centred in Fallujah, in order to retain power, thereby causing many unnecessary deaths.

But while the deaths caused by Saddam were fine for war crimes propaganda, today's slaughter in Fallujah will be largely justified in the press.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 08 November 2004 06:16 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not to mention Bush pere's shameful role in that uprising. The blood of those Shia and Kurds that rose up against Saddam after the Gulf War is just as much on the Bush's - and Colin Powell's - hands as it is on Saddam's.

The hypocrisy is quite breathtaking.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 November 2004 06:36 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Military age males trying to leave the city will be captured or turned back.

At the Casablance Conference, F. D. Roosevelt shocked his allies by saying that they would accept nothing less than unconditional surrender from the Axis powers. He didn't realize, or seem to care, that this left the Germans no choice but to fight to the death.

Lessons of history unlearned. The Iraqi resistance now has no choice but to fight to the death...or drive out the invader.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
kukuchai
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posted 08 November 2004 08:10 PM      Profile for kukuchai        Edit/Delete Post
Better to die free then to live oppressed.
From: Earth | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
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posted 08 November 2004 10:12 PM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A horrific wave of crimes is taking place in the Middle East and it's reported on the daily news.

It is so sickening and will come to haunt us all, I believe.

Including those of us who are horrified by the barbarity.

[ 08 November 2004: Message edited by: VanLuke ]


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 November 2004 10:18 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by kukuchai:
Better to die free then to live oppressed.

That's easy for you to say.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 08 November 2004 11:55 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"I got myself a real juicy target," shouted Sgt James Anyett, peering through the thermal sight of a Long Range Acquisition System (LRAS) mounted on one of Phantom's Humvees.

"Prepare to copy that 89089226. Direction 202 degrees. Range 950 metres. I got five motherf****** in a building with weapons."

Capt Kirk Mayfield, commander of the Phantoms, called for fire from his task force's mortar team. But Sgt Anyett didn't want to wait. "Dude, give me the sniper rifle. I can take them out - I'm from Alabama."


'I got my kills ... I just love my job'


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 09 November 2004 01:02 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It has begun!

(Listening to the coverage on Air America right now...)


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
ShyViolet
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posted 09 November 2004 01:53 AM      Profile for ShyViolet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
It has begun!

gir, i really need that drink now...

how long can this go on???!!! how many will have to die...

and if dubya reinstates the draft and sends my sean or my little brother... god, i don't know what i'd do... if anything happens to them, i will die. i couldn't bear it... this is what i'm afraid of! can bush not see the damage he has done and seems to intend to continue? someone should put him in the middle of the battlefield so he can experience firsthand what he skipped out on in vietnam... i bet he wouldn't be so eager to warmonger then...

[ 09 November 2004: Message edited by: ShyViolet417 ]


From: ~Love is like pi: natural, irrational, and very important~ | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 09 November 2004 02:01 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ShyViolet417:

gir, i really need that drink now...

Well then come on over

quote:
Originally posted by ShyViolet417:
how long can this go on???!!! how many will have to die...

How long? Well unless something big happens, it will go on for four more years

quote:
Originally posted by ShyViolet417:
and if dubya reinstates the draft and sends my sean or my little brother... god, i don't know what i'd do... if anything happens to them, i will die. i couldn't bear it... this is what i'm afraid of! can bush not see the damage he has done and seems to intend to continue?

This is what irks me so much about family values voters. They're so afraid of homosexual marrying each other that they will elect a president who will send their sons, brothers, fathers, and husbands to die in Iraq. If only they could see what a tool they are being in voting for Bush...

Oh and Shy, do you listen to Air America? I'm listening on the net right now... Malloy's show just ended. Wow did he ever tear into Bushite hypocrisy... I think you'd like Air America if you'd like to hear progressive news and commentary.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
kukuchai
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posted 09 November 2004 02:05 AM      Profile for kukuchai        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

That's easy for you to say.


Ok. How about "Better dead than Red", the mantra of some 30 years ago.

Personally, I would rather die fighting an oppressor than live under an unjust tyranny.


From: Earth | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
ShyViolet
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posted 09 November 2004 02:15 AM      Profile for ShyViolet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:

This is what irks me so much about family values voters. They're so afraid of homosexual marrying each other that they will elect a president who will send their sons, brothers, fathers, and husbands to die in Iraq. If only they could see what a tool they are being in voting for Bush...

Oh and Shy, do you listen to Air America? I'm listening on the net right now... Malloy's show just ended. Wow did he ever tear into Bushite hypocrisy... I think you'd like Air America if you'd like to hear progressive news and commentary.


nope, not listening to air america...

and as for the family values thing..i know! i can't beleive that they are so afraid of letting 2 people have a legal, loving union that they are willing to sacrifice their kids! makes no sense to me.... family values my ass.... obviously they value their families enough that they want them to die in a pointless war! how much do ya wnat to bet that if the draft is reinstated, he will draft women too?

i pray that it doesn't go on 4 more years..but it prolly will. he'll take iran and n. korea next, i'm sure!

yes, i need that drink! where do i need to go?

[ 09 November 2004: Message edited by: ShyViolet417 ]


From: ~Love is like pi: natural, irrational, and very important~ | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
VanLuke
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posted 09 November 2004 02:49 AM      Profile for VanLuke     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by kukuchai:

"Better dead than Red"


You don't know what you're talking about.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 09 November 2004 03:11 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ShyViolet417:

how much do ya wnat to bet that if the draft is reinstated, he will draft women too?

I don't think so. For a reactionary, the kitchen is the place for wimmin-folk, not the battlefield.

quote:
Originally posted by ShyViolet417:

yes, i need that drink! where do i need to go?


Edmonton.

From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 09 November 2004 03:16 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your post has made me very sad Shyviolet You know I can't imagine having to worry about. I feel awful.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
ShyViolet
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posted 09 November 2004 03:24 AM      Profile for ShyViolet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:

Edmonton.

*sigh* that's a bit far.... oh well, since alcohol's out the question, i guess it'll have to be chocolate! i do have a hershey bar!
i handle chocolate better than alcohol anyhow...
if only i could have that drink though...

as for the draft (can't figure out how to get more than one quote thingy in my post hopeless w/ comps!!)
yes, probably they won't draft women... but hey, if they get desperate enough, ya never know. not that i wanna be drafted. if they tried to draft me, i prolly would leave the country. i have no intention of being killed for something i don't believe in!
edited 'cause i didn't mean to post that map!

[ 09 November 2004: Message edited by: ShyViolet417 ]


From: ~Love is like pi: natural, irrational, and very important~ | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
ShyViolet
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posted 09 November 2004 03:27 AM      Profile for ShyViolet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:
Your post has made me very sad Shyviolet You know I can't imagine having to worry about. I feel awful.

don't feel bad! not your fault! it'll be ok... hopefully they won't get sent, but they are both in that draftable window. sean is 18, my bro is 16. if it continues for 4 more years, they will def both be eligible! i've been driving sean crazy lately 'cause unless they've changed it, there's a provisions stating that if you're in college you can't be drafted. so i keep telling him he must enroll asap (he wanted to take a year off). he's getting annoyed with me, but i don't care. i don't want him sent!!!!!

[ 09 November 2004: Message edited by: ShyViolet417 ]


From: ~Love is like pi: natural, irrational, and very important~ | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 09 November 2004 11:40 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They've actually dubbed the attack, Operation Phantom Fury. Now, they're naming military campaigns after vacuum cleaners

Edited to add a link

quote:
Alleviate the need for messy vacuum bags while using the cleaning force of two Cyclones. with the FANTOM. Fury Vacuum.

When you buy from our online store, you choose savings as well.

Features include:

  • Bagless cyclonic dust collection bin
  • Dirt arresters to prevent trapping fine dust on bin bottom
  • Dual filter system--self-charging electrostatic filter and anti-allergen filter
  • Washable, reusable anti-allergen filter to capture 99.97 percent of all particles
    Squeeze 'N Go cleaning wand handle with 10-foot reach
  • Three floor settings
  • Assorted models and colors

and a picture

[ 09 November 2004: Message edited by: Scott Piatkowski ]


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
kukuchai
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posted 09 November 2004 12:02 PM      Profile for kukuchai        Edit/Delete Post
Mostly men. Not familiar with vacuum cleaner names probably. Puts an interesting, amusing twist on the whole thing though. Not that murder is amusing.

Or maybe it was intentional as in "We need to clean up this town!"

But then what can you expect from a bunch of brain-washed, brain-dead drones -- kind of like vacuum cleaners.


From: Earth | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 09 November 2004 12:57 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
They've actually dubbed the attack, Operation Phantom Fury. Now, they're naming military campaigns after vacuum cleaners


Remember teh invasion of Panama: it was dubbed "Operation Just Cause", which pretty much summe dup it's purpose: just 'cause.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 09 November 2004 01:25 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
And now, the Allawi government, aided by US firepower, must suppress the Sunni uprising centred in Fallujah, in order to retain power, thereby causing many unnecessary deaths.
[/QB]

And what do you want to bet that in 10 or so years, some right wing US government will be sending troops in to take out the evil dictator Allawi, and raging against the left wing anti-war protesters, Canada, the French, and Germany for not wanting to bring "Freedom" to the people of Iraq, and for not supporting them in their effort to remove the evil dictator and putting in a new "democraticly elected" government?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Insurrection
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posted 09 November 2004 06:11 PM      Profile for Insurrection     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Muhammad Abbud said he watched his nine-year-old son bleed to death at their Falluja home, unable to take him to hospital as fighting raged in the streets and bombs rained down on the Iraqi city.


In the midst of a US onslaught and hemmed in by a round-the-clock curfew, he said he had little choice but to bury his eldest son, Ghaith, in the garden.

"My son got shrapnel in his stomach when our house was hit at dawn, but we couldn't take him for treatment," said Abbud, a teacher. "We buried him in the garden because it was too dangerous to go out. We did not know how long the fighting would last."


'Scores of civilians' killed in Falluja


From: exit in the world | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory64
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posted 09 November 2004 11:34 PM      Profile for majorvictory64     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[U.S. Pushes Into Fallujah; 10 GIs Killed

quote:
By JIM KRANE, Associated Press Writer

NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq - U.S. troops powered their way into the center of the insurgent stronghold of Fallujah on Tuesday, overwhelming small bands of guerrillas with massive force, searching homes along the city's deserted, narrow passageways and using loudspeakers to try to goad militants onto the streets.

As of Tuesday night, the fighting had killed 10 U.S. troops and two members of the Iraqi security force, the U.S. military announced. The toll already equaled the 10 American military deaths when Marines besieged the city for three weeks in April.

As the offensive moved into a second full day, up to eight attack aircraft — including jets and helicopter gunships — blasted guerrilla strongholds and raked the streets with rocket, cannon and machine-gun fire ahead of U.S. and Iraqi infantry who were advancing only one or two blocks behind the curtain of fire.

Small groups of guerrillas, armed with rifles, rocket-propelled grenades, mortars and machine guns, engaged U.S. troops, then fell back. U.S. troops inspected houses along Fallujah's streets and ran across adjoining alleyways, mindful of snipers.

A psychological operations unit broadcast announcements in Arabic meant to draw out gunmen. An Iraqi translator from the group said through a loudspeaker: "Brave terrorists, I am waiting here for the brave terrorists. Come and kill us. Plant small bombs on roadsides. Attention, attention, terrorists of Fallujah."


[ 09 November 2004: Message edited by: majorvictory64 ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 November 2004 09:08 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Allawi's cousin and daughter-in-law become hostages.

quote:
Hours after the abductions, a posting on a website used by Islamic militants from a group calling itself Ansar al-Jihad claimed responsibility. The group warned it would behead the pair in 48 hours unless all Iraqi detainees were released from jail and the raid on Fallujah ended.

From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
FakeDesignerWatch
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posted 10 November 2004 12:12 PM      Profile for FakeDesignerWatch   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Article writen by Sami Ramadani, a political refugee from Saddam Hussein's regime and a senior lecturer at London Metropolitan University.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1347354,00.html

Contains many interesting facts - Falluja was also the heart of anti-Saddamism. So, the link between the old US supported regime and new US supported one is being enforced. Further proving to the Iraqis that its the religious leaders who are willing to defy the masters. Alas.


From: Milan | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 November 2004 01:36 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
'This is where the foreign fighters hang out'

Ironic that phrasing and headline when we discover:

quote:
"There's a man in black with a weapon on that roof," shouted Sgt Ndifreke Aanam-ndu, a Nigerian who hopes to gain American citizenship by serving in the army.


Interesting to that this guy is already a sargent. That is a pretty fast climb through the ranks given that the war is less than a year old. On suspects that he may be one of the CIA's regular African assets.

[ 10 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Insurrection
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posted 10 November 2004 01:57 PM      Profile for Insurrection     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Body parts everywhere!" cries a US soldier as a shell crashes onto a group of suspected rebels in the Iraqi city of Fallujah, where a punishing torrent of firepower thundered down on Tuesday.

More than 500 rounds of 155-millimetre Howitzer cannon shells have been fired on the besieged Sunni stronghold west of Baghdad since a US-Iraqi offensive to take control of the city started on Monday evening, said Sergeant Michael Hamby.

Using a global positioning system, each shell is precision aimed and fired at insurgent spots, while unmanned reconnaisance aircraft check whether the target was hit and feed back the information, Hamby told AFP.

Unconfirmed estimates suggest that as many as 100 000 residents of Fallujah could still be inside the city.

In the northwestern Jolan neighbourhood alone - branded the hotbed of insurgent activity in Fallujah - US forces unleashed more than 20 air strikes and some 60 artillery rounds on Monday, said Major Todd Desgrosseilliers.

"We probably had 20-to-30 air strikes in the Jolan and probably two-to-three times that in artillery missions," he said.

Attack helicopters swooped overhead, dropping flares on buildings from where the muzzle of insurgent rocket heads jutted out.

"Nothing is being indiscriminately fired at. These are spots where they (militants) are either getting ready to fight or already are," the major said.


'Body parts everywhere' in Fallujah


From: exit in the world | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 10 November 2004 02:12 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This series of reports by Falluja journalist Fadhil Badrani cuts through the official crap about "surgical war" and gives us some insight about the lives and deaths of ordinary Fallujans: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3999899.stm
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 November 2004 03:30 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stalingrad comes to mind.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory64
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posted 10 November 2004 05:20 PM      Profile for majorvictory64     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fallujah prayer : A rosary hangs off the barrel of a machinegun

quote:
mounted on a Bradley belonging to the 1st Cavalry Regiment 5th Battalion positioned on the outskirts of Fallujah.

From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 November 2004 06:11 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Didn't these clowns learn anything from the previous nine Crusades?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory64
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posted 10 November 2004 09:04 PM      Profile for majorvictory64     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
'Watching tragedy engulf my city'

quote:
US and Iraqi forces are locked in desperate street battles against insurgents in the Iraqi city of Falluja. The BBC News website spoke by phone to Fadhil Badrani, a journalist in Falluja who reports for the BBC World Service in Arabic.

Translation from Arabic by Jumbe Omari Jumbe of bbcarabic.com

11/09/04 "BBC" -- I am surrounded by thick black smoke and the smell of burning oil. There was a big explosion a few minutes ago and now I can hear gunfire.

A US armoured vehicle has been parked on the street outside my house in the centre of the city.

From my window, I can see US soldiers moving around on foot near it.

They tried to go from house to house but they kept coming under fire.

Now they are firing back at the houses, at anything that moves. It is war on the streets.

The American troops look like they have given up trying to go into buildings for now and are just trying to control the main roads.

I am sitting here on my own, watching tragedy engulf my city.

Looks like Kabul

I was with some of the Falluja fighters earlier. They looked tired - but their spirits were high and they were singing.

Recently, many Iraqis from other parts of the country have been joining the local men against the Americans.
No one has had much sleep in the past two days of heavy fighting and of course, it is still Ramadan, so no one eats during the day.

I cannot say how many people have been killed but after two days of bombing, this city looks like Kabul.

Large portions of it have been destroyed but it is so dangerous to leave the house that I have not been able to find out more about casualties.



From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 10 November 2004 11:59 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Way to make them like us better George!

King George II will not negotiate with the Iraqis. He believes they are dirty savages. He only understands violence. Therefore the Iraqis must use violence in order to get him to negotiate.

So, in an effort to promote multilateralism, I have no hesitation in saying:

Victory to Iraq!
Long live the fighters!


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 11 November 2004 01:04 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why don't they just surrender in Fallujah, form a political party that is anti-American and in favour of a Sunni theocracy and then start doing some door to door canvassing, advertising, getting out the vote and maybe win the election in January. Isn't it better to take power via the ballot box as opposed to by war? If Iraqis view the Americans as occupiers, then i expect that they will vote en masse for which ever parties or candidates position themselves as being the most anti-America.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory64
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posted 11 November 2004 01:23 AM      Profile for majorvictory64     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Squeezing jello in Iraq

quote:
By Scott Ritter

Wednesday 10 November 2004, 20:26 Makka Time, 17:26 GMT

The much-anticipated US-led offensive to seize the Iraqi city of Falluja from anti-American Iraqi fighters has begun. Meeting resistance that, while stiff at times, was much less than had been anticipated, US Marines and soldiers, accompanied by Iraqi forces loyal to the interim government of Iyad Allawi, have moved into the heart of Falluja.

Fighting is expected to continue for a few more days, but US commanders are confident that Falluja will soon be under US control, paving the way for the establishment of order necessary for nation-wide elections currently scheduled for January 2005.

But will it? American military planners expected to face thousands of Iraqi resistance fighters in the streets of Falluja, not the hundreds they are currently fighting. They expected to roll up the network of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and his foreign Islamic militants, and yet to date have found no top-tier leaders from that organization. As American forces surge into Falluja, Iraqi fighters are mounting extensive attacks throughout the rest of Iraq.

Far from facing off in a decisive battle against the resistance fighters, it seems the more Americans squeeze Falluja, the more the violence explodes elsewhere. It is exercises in futility, akin to squeezing jello. The more you try to get a grasp on the problem, the more it slips through your fingers.



From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 11 November 2004 03:55 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Why don't they just surrender in Fallujah, form a political party that is anti-American and in favour of a Sunni theocracy and then start doing some door to door canvassing, advertising, getting out the vote and maybe win the election in January. Isn't it better to take power via the ballot box as opposed to by war? If Iraqis view the Americans as occupiers, then i expect that they will vote en masse for which ever parties or candidates position themselves as being the most anti-America.

You are presuming the January election will be fair and honest. In an occupied country, that is quite an assumption to make.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 November 2004 04:01 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder why it is ... I read Stockholm's last post, and I hear Rex Harrison singing, "Why can't a woman ... be more like a MAN?"

Why can't everyone in Iraq be just like ... Stockholm?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 11 November 2004 04:04 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's a good question. Why can't a woman be more like a man?
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 November 2004 04:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mandos, really. Would you settle for second-best if you didn't have to?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 11 November 2004 04:08 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's almost impossible for the Iraqi elections to be anything other than a farce, so I'll give Stockholm the benefit of the doubt and assume that his last post was satire.
From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 11 November 2004 04:12 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought Harrison said "Why can't the English learn to speak?"

Oh, and "¡Viva Sandino!", Stockholm.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 11 November 2004 04:29 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's almost impossible for the Iraqi elections to be anything other than a farce, so I'll give Stockholm the benefit of the doubt and assume that his last post was satire.

Under current conditions, the elections will be a farce. But if all the insurgents laid down their weapons, declared a ceasefire and formed political parties then maybe the election wouldn't be such a farce! But of course if they did that, they would have to face up to the possibility of losing the election.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 11 November 2004 06:33 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Under current conditions, the elections will be a farce. But if all the insurgents laid down their weapons, declared a ceasefire and formed political parties then maybe the election wouldn't be such a farce! But of course if they did that, they would have to face up to the possibility of losing the election.


Stockholm, if the insurgents laid down all their weapons and peacefully campaigned for a theocracy, they still wouldn't get what they want, not only would Iraqis oppose them(Iraq is an extremely secular country)
they would also be incarcerated by the Americans. Bush has no interest in democracy. A democracy in an oil-producing state would be disastrous for the US economy. The elections are a sham. Mr. Allawi will win handsdown and the human rights abuses that Mr. Hussein was so famous for Will begin again.

[ 11 November 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 11 November 2004 06:41 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, the real danger is that the insurgents would win the election. At which point, of course, the US would announce that Iraqi democracy was deeply flawed, Iraqis were not ready for self-government, and therefore it would unfortunately be necessary to launch a coup and place Iyah "Quisling" Allawi in office indefinitely.

Then, after several years of torture, martial law and arbitrary dictatorship, Iraqis would successfully be "educated" as to the proper behaviour of "voters" in a US client-state "democracy": namely, vote for the US candidate, or suffer the consequences.

The US will never cease to defend the right of Iraqis to elect a government the US likes.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 November 2004 06:58 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As in Viet Nam, the U.S. will be forced out, sooner or later.

From a human point of view, sooner would obviously be better.

But given what we know about the capacity of American popular culture for long-term denial, later is more likely.

It won't make any difference. Well -- more will die if it's later. There will be a panic bug-out at some point, which will give the Americans another burr under the blanket to madden them for yet another generation.

And yet, a generation on, Iraq, like Viet Nam, will be quietly rebuilding in its own way, politely allowing the Americans to come to find their dead even as they try to forget the much much greater death toll on their side.

The Americans have a history of doing this. The only way to stop it would be through an effective UN, and we don't have one of those.

So look for a panic evacuation from the secure zone -- next year, five years from now ... It hardly matters. Americans will care about the drama of it all. They will never notice all the Iraqi bodies.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Insurrection
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posted 11 November 2004 07:03 PM      Profile for Insurrection     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
People have short memories.
From: exit in the world | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 November 2004 07:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some people, Insurrection.

Some cultures try to destroy memory, mind. I think that that is the purpose of American pop culture -- to destroy memory, and replace it with Disneyfied lies.

And their pop culture is their greatest creation, their greatest export.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 11 November 2004 07:19 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Americans have a history of doing this. The only way to stop it would be through an effective UN, and we don't have one of those.

I don't know. The United Nations was pretty effective when it came to proving the shrub was full of horse pucky. Do you believe that multilateralism is now a impossibility in any circumstance?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 11 November 2004 07:26 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think that that is the purpose of American pop culture -- to destroy memory, and replace it with Disneyfied lies.

And their pop culture is their greatest creati


The Americans aren't the only ones who are guilty of that. Television programs and motion pictures from all over the world are designed to do one thing. Distract us so that corporations can get away with murder.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Insurrection
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posted 11 November 2004 07:28 PM      Profile for Insurrection     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl, absolutely.

Just seeing it in motion is like watching prosthetic history…

Amazing how the invention and reinvention of memory is dependant upon what isn't said.

[ 11 November 2004: Message edited by: Insurrection ]


From: exit in the world | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 November 2004 07:28 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, how can I know?

I do remember that for a short time in the early and mid-nineties, there was serious talk about shifting UN peace-keeping to the construction of major peace-making armies, and I thought that that was a good idea, a good counter to imperialist adventurism.

But those discussions ended with 9/11 and Bush's doctrine of pre-emptive -- really, aggressive -- war.

It would be better if Iraq had effective international help, given the hell of the last two years, and then the decades before that. But I don't see that coming. The current so-called coalition is just American adventurism, and the sooner it stops, the better, no matter what ensues -- and I'm sure that that won't be great.

A genuine international peace-making army would have been great, but it doesn't exist. It would be great in Palestine, too. But it doesn't exist.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 November 2004 07:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stckholm seems to forget that the all this trouble really started with the US trying to close down a Sadr's paper, and that is when the Mahdi Militia made its appearance. So much for a free electoral process. Also, Stockholm s typically long on jingoism and short on facts, on what basis does he suggest that the Sunni Muslim population of Faluja are opposed to secular government? After all it was the Sunni's who led the last secular government in Iraq.

Could it be because he thinks that all Iraqi fighters represent Zaraqi's group? Of course he would think this, he doesn't bother reading beyong the big print in the paper.

[ 11 November 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 12 November 2004 12:46 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
on what basis does he suggest that the Sunni Muslim population of Faluja are opposed to secular government?

I don't!! and that is why there is a war. War is typically fought by people who know they can't win by the ballot box.

So who are we supposed to be rooting for in Iraq? The US puppet government, or its fascist theorcratic opposition? Why are there no social democrats in Iraq? or anti-Americans that are also anti-religious?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 12 November 2004 01:24 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't!! and that is why there is a war. War is typically fought by people who know they can't win by the ballot bo

Do you recall who invaded Iraq, Stockholm?

Perhaps their presence might explain the cause of the war there.

Or maybe I'm misreading you. Did the Commander-in-Chief of the invading force fear losing his next election, and so thought that he could busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
majorvictory64
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posted 12 November 2004 02:29 AM      Profile for majorvictory64     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Iraq: the unthinkable becomes normal

quote:
Mainstream media speak as if Fallujah were populated only by foreign "insurgents". In fact, women and children are being slaughtered in our name.

John Pilger

11/11/04 "New Statesman" -- Edward S Herman's landmark essay, "The Banality of Evil", has never seemed more apposite. "Doing terrible things in an organised and systematic way rests on 'normalisation'," wrote Herman. "There is usually a division of labour in doing and rationalising the unthinkable, with the direct brutalising and killing done by one set of individuals . . . others working on improving technology (a better crematory gas, a longer burning and more adhesive napalm, bomb fragments that penetrate flesh in hard-to-trace patterns). It is the function of the experts, and the mainstream media, to normalise the unthinkable for the general public."

On Radio 4's Today (6 November), a BBC reporter in Baghdad referred to the coming attack on the city of Fallujah as "dangerous" and "very dangerous" for the Americans. When asked about civilians, he said, reassuringly, that the US marines were "going about with a Tannoy" telling people to get out. He omitted to say that tens of thousands of people would be left in the city. He mentioned in passing the "most intense bombing" of the city with no suggestion of what that meant for people beneath the bombs.

As for the defenders, those Iraqis who resist in a city that heroically defied Saddam Hussein; they were merely "insurgents holed up in the city", as if they were an alien body, a lesser form of life to be "flushed out" (the Guardian): a suitable quarry for "rat-catchers", which is the term another BBC reporter told us the Black Watch use. According to a senior British officer, the Americans view Iraqis as Untermenschen, a term that Hitler used in Mein Kampf to describe Jews, Romanies and Slavs as sub-humans. This is how the Nazi army laid siege to Russian cities, slaughtering combatants and non-combatants alike.

Normalising colonial crimes like the attack on Fallujah requires such racism, linking our imagination to "the other". The thrust of the reporting is that the "insurgents" are led by sinister foreigners of the kind that behead people: for example, by Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian said to be al-Qaeda's "top operative" in Iraq. This is what the Americans say; it is also Blair's latest lie to parliament. Count the times it is parroted at a camera, at us. No irony is noted that the foreigners in Iraq are overwhelmingly American and, by all indications, loathed. These indications come from apparently credible polling organisations, one of which estimates that of 2,700 attacks every month by the resistance, six can be credited to the infamous al-Zarqawi.



From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 12 November 2004 09:20 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Stockholm, if the insurgents laid down all their weapons and peacefully campaigned for a theocracy, they still wouldn't get what they want, not only would Iraqis oppose them(Iraq is an extremely secular country)
they would also be incarcerated by the Americans. Bush has no interest in democracy. A democracy in an oil-producing state would be disastrous for the US economy. The elections are a sham. Mr. Allawi will win handsdown and the human rights abuses that Mr. Hussein was so famous for Will begin again.


We don't know that all the insurgents (or even the majority of them) are bent on bringing a Theocracy to Iraq. Maybe they are secular, and just want to ensure that Sunnis get a voice in the new government. Maybe they hate the idea of their country being ruled by America through a puppet, and are fighting to kick America out. We don't know, because the picture we receive of the insurgents is a simplistic cartoon supplied by the US military.

The systematic erosion of all democratic institutions (courts, free press, security, liberty) in Iraq _by_ the US does not inspire confidence in a full and fair election. Hell, the numerous voting irregularities in Ohio and Florida don't inspire confidence in a fair Iraqi election, considering who's running the show.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 12 November 2004 02:09 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The systematic erosion of all democratic institutions (courts, free press, security, liberty) in Iraq _by_ the US does not inspire confidence in a full and fair election.

For there to be EROSION of democratic institutions in Iraq, there has to have been some form of democratic institutions in Iraq in the first place - otherwise there is nothing to erode!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 12 November 2004 02:28 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
there is nothing to erode!

There you go, folks.

There speaks the North American middle class. That is what they know about the rest of the world.

And that is why we now face Armageddon.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 12 November 2004 02:34 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For there to be EROSION of democratic institutions in Iraq, there has to have been some form of democratic institutions in Iraq in the first place - otherwise there is nothing to erode!


I'm not talking about the conditions under Saddam when I refer to the press, Stockie. I'm talking about the almost-burgeoning press that tried to start up immediately after his ouster. There was _more_ security before the invasion than now, albeit a perverse strongarm form of security. There was also a functioning (if corrupt in some areas) court system for dispute resolution before the invasion - that is no more. The only thing that really didn't exist is the western form of liberty, and that good has certainly not been delivered. Nor will it, through fraudulent elections.

[ 12 November 2004: Message edited by: Briguy ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 12 November 2004 03:49 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There was _more_ security before the invasion than now, albeit a perverse strongarm form of security. There was also a functioning (if corrupt in some areas) court system for dispute resolution before the invasion - that is no more.

I find it amusing that all of a sudden people on the left are being apologists for a fascist military dictatorship on the grounds that "at least there was law and order/at least he made the trains run on time". Reading between the lines, I'm getting the message that Saddam may have been a brutal fascist dictator, but at least there was less crime because the police were more efficient etc...

Gee, if I had written that things were better in Chile under Pinochet because one advantage of a fascist dictatorship is less crime and trains that run on time - I'd be eaten alive.

But, then again, there will always be people who take the attitude that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", ergo, Bush is the enemy and therefore if Bush is at war with Saddam Hussein, there must be something defensible about Saddam otherwise why would Bush be against him???


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Paladin
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posted 12 November 2004 04:33 PM      Profile for Paladin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pointing out that some aspects of life were better in Iraq prior to the invasion does not make one an apologist for Saddam Hussein. And I think it's been said here many times that one can loathe Bush and everything he stands for, and not be a cheerleader for the Iraqi dictator. I had hoped that we were past that.
From: Jugular knotch | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 12 November 2004 04:45 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree, i just find it interesting that people are happy to point out that in "some ways" things were better under Saddam. Yet, I don't see much eagerness to find any virtue in how under people like Stalin and Hitler and Mussolini and Franco, there was more law and order and less civil unrest etc... and hence "in some ways" things were better then under democratic regimes.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 12 November 2004 04:47 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I agree, i just find it interesting that people are happy to point out that in "some ways" things were better under Saddam.

"Happy" is not the right word. "Appalled" is more like it.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Paladin
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posted 12 November 2004 04:54 PM      Profile for Paladin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
and hence "in some ways" things were better then under democratic regimes.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that things were better in Saddam's time than they would have been under a democratic regime. Some things may have been better than they are now, where there is a US backed puppet regime declaring martial law, and there is outright warfare being waged against people who want the US out.


From: Jugular knotch | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 12 November 2004 06:43 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Polls have shown that three out of five people prefer to be killed by democracies than by dictators.

quote:
I find it amusing that all of a sudden people on the left are being apologists for a fascist military dictatorship...

I think we need a program to keep up with the fascists here. So Sadaam was a fascist, now? But I thought the Islamists he had repressed for decades, and who called him an infidel, are fascists.

I'm confused.

{edited typo in "polls" to give Frac Tal a chance to say something of some import)

[ 12 November 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
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posted 12 November 2004 08:02 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Pools have shown that three out of five people prefer to be killed by democracies than by dictators.

Well, pools are known to be shallow. Ya think those citizens of Berlin preferred Stalin's shot and shell?

quote:
I think we need a program to keep up with the fascists here. So Sadaam was a fascist, now? But I thought the Islamists he had repressed for decades, and who called him an infidel, are fascists.

How much did you pay pay for your ticket? The Fascists are seated in rows 15 B to 18 S.

quote:
I'm confused.

Buy a program. For 10$ US they even now point out Arafat's grave.


From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 13 November 2004 12:51 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So Sadaam was a fascist, now? But I thought the Islamists he had repressed for decades, and who called him an infidel, are fascists.

Fascism comes in different forms. Franco was a Catholic fascist. Hitler was an anti-Christian fascist. Stalin was a fascist who pretended to be a communist.

If you read a dictionary definition of fascism it perfectly describes both Saddam Hussein and the fundamentalist Islamist forces that are now fighting in parts of Iraq.

The only non-fascist alternative would be s small "l" liberal social democratic pluralist government in Iraq that recongnizes total religious freedom, equality of the sexes, abolishes the death penalty and legalizes gay sex. In the absence of that, all Iraq faxces are choices between different flavours of fascism.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 November 2004 01:54 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dictionary?

Why not consult Benito Mussolini, who said, "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."

He oughta know. Since your Islamists have neither state nor corporate power, they must be something other than Fascists.

Your use of the word is closer to Orwell's description:

"The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies 'something not desirable.'"

Politics and the English Language


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 13 November 2004 10:58 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Without trying to diminish the importance of this thread topic, and how ugly Usian actions are in Falluja, and Iraq, I feel that Stock's comments need to be rebutted. In my opinion, his tactic to get off the topic, in this thread, of how bad USian actions are against Iraqis, is to profess absolute BS about fascism, history and Hitler.

Having read your comments Stock, I am astonished that you would profess that Hitler was anti-Christian. Nothing could be further from the truth unless it would be you saying Saddam and Iraq was fascist.

First off, to post such premises, you really need to provide support for it. Which you did not and I presume you did not because there is none. So, here are some actual facts on Hitler's Christianity. The first source is a link to many other sources disproving you Stock. The second is an overview. The third is a website of the son of a soldier in Hitler's Nazi Germany.

quote:

"To deny the influence of Christianity on Hitler and its role in World War II, means that you must ignore history and bar yourself forever from understanding how this atrocity occurred.

Hitler's religious beliefs and fanaticism (quotes from Mein Kampf)
Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church and experienced the anti-Semitic attitude of his culture. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country. "


Hitler's]Hitler's Christianity

quote:

Hitler's Christianity
Some people say Adolf Hitler was an atheist. They blame atheism for Hitler's philosophy. But the historical record shows that Hitler believed in God and was convinced he was carrying out God's will.
Hitler served as an altar boy in the Catholic Church. Growing up in this environment, he surely learned something of the centuries of discrimination and persecution the Church had supported against Jews in Europe.
Former Jesuit theologian Peter de Rosa describes the groundwork Catholic theology laid for Hitler and the Nazis: "[Catholicism’s] disastrous theology had prepared the way for Hitler and his ‘final solution.’ [The Church published] over a hundred anti-Semitic documents. Not one conciliar decree, not one papal encyclical, bull, or pastoral directive suggest that Jesus’ command, ‘love your neighbor as yourself,' applied to Jews."
Not surprisingly, then, Hitler wrote in his book, Mein Kampf: ". . . I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." He made essentially the same claim in a speech before the Reichstag in 1938.
Hitler considered himself a Catholic until the day he died. In 1941 he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." In fact, Hitler was never excommunicated from the Catholic Church, and Mein Kampf was not placed on the Church's Index of Forbidden Books.
Hitler's biographer John Toland explains Catholicism's influence on the Holocaust. He says of Hitler: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god. . .."


Catholic Hitler

quote:

The Holocaust was caused by Christian fundamentalism:

History is currently being distorted by the millions of Christians who lie to have us believe that the Holocaust was not a Christian deed. Through subterfuge and concealment, many of today’s Church leaders and faithful Christians have camouflaged the Christianity of Adolf Hitler and have attempted to mark him an atheist, a pagan cult worshipper, or a false Christian in order to place his misdeeds on those with out Jesus. However, from the earliest formation of the Nazi party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, Hitler expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and chat rooms.

Considering that Christianity has thus far been incapable of producing an unbiased, educated follower which speaks the truth, (I haven’t encountered any), I have been forced to dispel the myth by writing this essay. It is not until I bring up his speeches, my personal info on the Nazi regime and their tactics that a Christian will begin to question what their clergy told them. (I am the offspring of a German soldier. My Opa served under Hitler in WW2 and my father was raised during the time of the Nazi regime. This is important information to take into consideration for I am privy to some info that most Americans do not know. It is common for American media and education institutions to lie to their citizens concerning Nazi Germany.) So, in presenting this information I must break it into four parts: 1) Facts about Hitler and his involvement with the Church. 2) How the Church was the catalyst for anti- Semitism. 3) Facts concerning how the Nazi regime drilled these beliefs into Germanic society. 4) Quotes Hitler made which prove he had a disdain for atheism/occultism, upheld his Christian faith, and hated Jews due to his Christianity.


Hitler Was a Christian

This is a link to Britannica on line re Fascism that shows that indeed Saddam could not be labelled Fascist:

Fascism and Christianity

Identification with Christianity
Most fascist movements portrayed themselves as defenders of Christianity and the traditional Christian family against atheists and amoral humanists. This was true of Catholic fascist movements in Poland, Spain, Portugal, France, Austria, Hungary, Croatia, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, and Brazil. In Romania, Codreanu said he wanted to model his life after the crucified…

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=219389

quote:

George Bush and the Rise of Christian Fascism

Rev. Rich Lang
Trinity United Methodist Church Seattle.

The men who wrote the Constitution of the United States knew that we human beings have a tendency to 'not get along with each other'. They knew that if power accrued into the hands of an elite the experiment of democracy (power spread out into the realm of the people) would be over. ...That dream died in December 2000 when the checks and balances of our Constitution collapsed and George Bush was inserted into the Presidency of the nited States. September 11, 2001 furthered the atrophying of democracy handing the country into the hands of an emerging Corporate (and I say Christian) Fascism.

Since that time we have witnessed and have been unable to prevent the emergence of an Imperial Presidency that has the unrestricted power to declare war against any country he chooses. The Imperial Presidency has brought to an end the Constitutional mandate that 'ONLY CONGRESS' has the authority to declare war. It has furthered weakened international law and has undermined the potential of the United Nations to spread democracy throughout the earth....Part of the power and seduction of this administration emerges from its diabolical manipulation of Christian rhetoric. I want to flesh out the ideology of the Christian Fascism that Mr. Bush articulates. It is a form of Christianity that is the mirror opposite of what Jesus embodied. It is, indeed, the materialization of the spirit of antichrist: a perversion of Christian faith and practice...




A Methodist Minister on Bush's Fascism

Stock perhaps it pains you to realize that the Catholic Church, may well be up to it's Fascists tricks again, and seeing as how it has the fundamentalists and that Evangelicals partnering with it one can only see them as being Fascist in nature as well, but you really need to start researching your remarks/beliefs that have hoodwinked you.

quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Fascism comes in different forms. Franco was a Catholic fascist. Hitler was an anti-Christian fascist. Stalin was a fascist who pretended to be a communist.

If you read a dictionary definition of fascism it perfectly describes both Saddam Hussein and the fundamentalist Islamist forces that are now fighting in parts of Iraq.

The only non-fascist alternative would be s small "l" liberal social democratic pluralist government in Iraq that recongnizes total religious freedom, equality of the sexes, abolishes the death penalty and legalizes gay sex. In the absence of that, all Iraq faxces are choices between different flavours of fascism.


[ 13 November 2004: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
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posted 13 November 2004 11:34 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Stock perhaps it pains you to realize that the Catholic Church, may well be up to it's Fascists tricks again, and seeing as how it has the fundamentalists and that Evangelicals partnering with it one can only see them as being Fascist in nature as well, but you really need to start researching your remarks/beliefs that have hoodwinked you.


Why would it pain me? Anyone who has read my posts knows that i am totally anti-Catholic and that i regard the Catholic Church as one of the most intrinsically evil institutions in the world. I only wish that Hitler's links with Catholicism were stronger so that it would be easier to blame the Vatican for Naziism!

I define fascism as follows:

1. Brutal police state
2. Death penalty and torture
3. Adulation of police and military and nationalism
4. Vilifying of minorities as "the other"
5. Support for elite power
6. Personality cult (most of the time)
7. Close ties to conservative religious institutions (most of the time)
8. Mindless nationalism
9. Anti-intellectualism


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 13 November 2004 11:38 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All very interesting, but this is a long thread and it's off topic now anyhow, so I'm closing it.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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