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Author Topic: Israel and Palestine: In Search of Answers
DrConway
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posted 21 October 2004 12:50 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By right of birth: Travelling to Israel and Palestine in search of answers

quote:
"Welcome home."

It's odd to hear this as you enter a country you have never before set foot in. These were the words I heard as I passed through customs at Ben-Gurion Airport and found my hand clasped in a warm, strong handshake by Schlomo (Momo) Lifshitz, a paunchy, muscular, former army colonel and current director of Oranim Birthright.

"As you are a Jew, this is your rightful homeland," he finished saying to me in a thick Israeli accent, before moving on to greet another person with similar words. He would reappear over the next 10 days, completing his message: I could, if I wanted, claim my Israeli citizenship at any point. I would be issued a passport, given an envelope full of cash, and the keys to a subsidised flat. Most importantly, I was here, in his words, "not to support us, but to be supported."


I found this to be one of the most interesting articles written on the subject of Israel and Palestine, devoid of the usual harsh rhetoric on the subject.

As to the above quote, I was amazed. Talk about getting a leg up! Just show up, get a fresh passport, instant cash and a place to live to get going.

Would that we did the same thing for immigrants here!

It's also a bit shocking because it makes one wonder whether Israel is abusing the very real central tenet of the Zionist tradition - that Israel is a Jewish homeland and should remain so - by, in effect, bribing people to go live in Israel.

That would be sad.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 October 2004 01:33 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The article as a whole is indeed beautiful and sad, Dr C.

quote:
I have no doubt that Sadaam will be able to fulfill his dreams. I can see him exploding his frail body among Israelis, fulfilling the dictates of a twisted Hamas creed. I can see him imagining himself rousing the consciousness of Israel and the world about the utter injustice of his situation. Sadaam is the terrorist I was taught to fear and hate during Birthright - their "mindless agent of hatred." In fact, he is a mere boy whose life is so painful that it does not seem to him to be worth living. His desire to be a suicide bomber is not borne of an intractable hatred but in direct response to an occupation that does not give him a chance to live.


When I read that paragraph, especially the sentence about rousing the consciousness of the world, the first image that sprang to my mind was the Buddhist monks in South Viet Nam back in the early sixties, setting themselves alight at a time when the rest of the world had barely begun to recognize what was happening there.

There, in the conviction, however distorted, that one's own sacrifice must rouse the world, is the psychological verisimilitude, I think -- not in some incantation about sheer evil.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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Zaklamont
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posted 01 November 2004 03:08 PM      Profile for Zaklamont        Edit/Delete Post
How Dr. Conway thinks a tiny nation like Israel can support new immigrants, in the lap of automatic comfort,with such ease and glee, as he describes it, is a mystery to me. Sure Israel looks after immigrants in the same manner, no greater , no less than most western countries. However, a recent article in Haaretz points out that the Jewish Agency (Israel's immigration agency) is cutting back.
(http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/SearchEn.jhtml)

Israel's key tourism industry has been wasted by a paucity of tourists, arising from terrorist attacks within the country. Another key industry, the high tech industry, has sufferred like everywhere else, including Canada.

On top of that, as a small country it requires to invest hugely in defence.

I wish Dr. Conway would get off his SANCTIMONIOUS lazy ass, and do some research, aside from quoting from one man's experience.

Zak


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Hinterland
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posted 01 November 2004 03:11 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
When did you turn into such a douche-bag, Zak?
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Michelle
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posted 01 November 2004 03:14 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right, let's nip this little flame war in the bud, shall we?

Zaklamont, if you have something useful to say, how about doing it without the personal attacks? And Hinterland...well...I think it goes without saying.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 01 November 2004 03:16 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Sorry.
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B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 01 November 2004 03:49 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zaklamont:
How Dr. Conway thinks a tiny nation like Israel can support new immigrants, in the lap of automatic comfort,with such ease and glee, as he describes it, is a mystery to me.

And to me. The 'ease and glee' with which they support new immigrants -- and colonial settlers for that matter -- masks the suffering and pain inflicted on Palestinians. It's true that Dr. Conway didn't really get into the "mystery" of it.

And just think what ease and glee they might experience had they chosen butter over guns...


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 01 November 2004 03:52 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
People are living there for thousands of years. After the West unleashes a genocide, they find themselves invaded by a European people. And they're supposed to simply move aside and say "Welcome?"

Yeah, that'll work.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 01 November 2004 03:55 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
hinterland i am not disagreeing with your message but just remember there were some jews there already as there were palestinians there already as well.

i am not saying how many but some had lived there hundreds if not thousands of years.

the irony of all irony's is, as a charater on the west wing said last week, that the palestinians are the jews of the middle east. no one wants either of them


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Hinterland
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posted 01 November 2004 04:01 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Put yourself in the place of a Palestinian. It shouldn't be that difficult. Imagine where you live now...imagine ancestral claims to your land being thrown in your face as you're asked to vacate the land you now occupy. What would you do?
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 01 November 2004 04:05 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Put yourself in the place of a Palestinian. It shouldn't be that difficult. Imagine where you live now...imagine ancestral claims to your land being thrown in your face as you're asked to vacate the land you now occupy. What would you do?

actually hinter. a good friend of mine had that happen to his family. the family after living for about 300 years in baghdad was kicked out with a suitcase each in 1949 for being jewish.

the irony of all ironies is that the grandson is a major in the us army and his "billet" was the same house that his family was kicked out of.

as he emailed me. he was home

but my point about palestinians is that their were jews who had and have as much claim to land as palestinians.. sometimes we forget that part as well

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: miles ]


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 01 November 2004 04:10 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Imagine where you live now...imagine ancestral claims to your land being thrown in your face as you're asked to vacate the land you now occupy. What would you do?

Phone the department of Native Affairs and ask them what the hell's going on, and should I cede my land or hold my ground.


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Hinterland
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posted 01 November 2004 04:11 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...the family after living for about 300 years in baghdad was kicked out with a suitcase each in 1949 for being jewish.

And the Palestinians have to atone for this...why?. This is ridiculous, considering that the Jewish people fared way better in the centuries they lived under Muslim rule, than in the centuries living among Christians, who murdered half of the Jewish population of the World.

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 01 November 2004 04:13 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hinterland

you asked me to imagine being kicked out of my home. i gave you an example of someone i know that it happened to.


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B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 01 November 2004 04:13 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by miles:
but my point about palestinians is that their were jews who had and have as much claim to land as palestinians.. sometimes we forget that part as well

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: miles ]


Most of the Jews of Palestine were confined to Jerusalem and a few small areas otherwise. Statistically, pre-Zionist Palestine was overwhelmingly (I mean, not even a question) Arab.

There is a large difference between the historical claim of some Jews based on books and stories of questionable lineage and the de facto "I'm-still-living-in-the-house" claim of many of the Palestinians evicted by Zionist Jews.

You wouldn't find justification in your "friend" the American Major evicting "his" home's current occupants, would you? Do you believe the current occupants owe your "friend" a comfortable place to stay and should recognise his historical right to "his" house?

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 01 November 2004 04:15 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Phone the department of Native Affairs and ask them what the hell's going on, and should I cede my land or hold my ground.

Oh.

3...2...1....Ha!


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Hinterland
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posted 01 November 2004 04:16 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by miles:
Hinterland

you asked me to imagine being kicked out of my home. i gave you an example of someone i know that it happened to.


Fair enough. Though, to get technical, I asked a question (what would you do?) for which you gave no response.

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 01 November 2004 04:21 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

And the Palestinians have to atone for this...why?. This is ridiculous, considering that the Jewish people fared way better in the centuries they lived under Muslim rule, than in the centuries living among Christians, who murdered half of the Jewish population of the World.

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


I think this is a canard too, Hinterland. As I said above, we need to focus on the difference between the individual rights of people to their current property (unless some wrongdoing in it's possession can be clearly shown - like ethnic cleansing, say) and 'national' rights to swathes of territory. Otherwise we just enter the forest of competing histories/mythologies and the problem of origins.

What nationality was Lucy, anyway?


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 01 November 2004 05:42 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As I said above, we need to focus on the difference between the individual rights of people to their current property (unless some wrongdoing in it's possession can be clearly shown - like ethnic cleansing, say) and 'national' rights to swathes of territory.

It's not a canard. But in any case, don't tell me this; tell the Palestinians. Tell the Israelis. Tell the Americans. Let's see how they react.

...oh, right. We've already seen that.

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
kablunnanajuk
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posted 01 November 2004 06:04 PM      Profile for kablunnanajuk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's a good article.

quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
People are living there for thousands of years. After the West unleashes a genocide, they find themselves invaded by a European people. And they're supposed to simply move aside and say "Welcome?"

Yeah, that'll work.


Aren't the Jews semitic? I.e., originally from that region? They are as much an ethnic group as a religious one, so it's not really fair to call them "Europeans".

Also, from the histories I've read, it isn't really accurate to use the term "invasion". The early Zionist settlers who moved into the region before WW1 purchased the land for their kibbutzim from Arab landlords. The Arab tenant farmers who were displaced by this were upset, but their coreligionist landlords deserved as much or more of their emnity. Post WW1, more Jewish immigrants arrived, and the tension became violent. By WW2 and after, they were refugees, hardly invaders.

As to who started the 1948 war, who invaded whom, pick your source. It all started in the space of a day, which suggests that everyone (Israel, Syria, Egypt, Jordan) was planning aggression.


From: 2000km from home (by road) | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 November 2004 06:11 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As I said above, we need to focus on the difference between the individual rights of people to their current property (unless some wrongdoing in it's possession can be clearly shown - like ethnic cleansing, say) and 'national' rights to swathes of territory.

*nitpick*
The concept of Palestine as a state has only existed for a few decades. Before that they were a colony, controlled by
the Turks and the British.
*nitpick*

Isn't one of the main arguments behind the one state solution that most of the land once inhabited by exiled Palestinians is currently standing empty?


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Coyote
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posted 01 November 2004 06:36 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

*nitpick*
The concept of Palestine as a state has only existed for a few decades. Before that they were a colony, controlled by
the Turks and the British.
*nitpick*


So what? What was an American before independence? What constitutes a Canadian? I think that a common struggle, a common experience of a given people in a given cultural, geopolitical situation, is as good a grounds as there is for national sentiment.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 01 November 2004 06:38 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
[QB]

*nitpick*
The concept of Palestine as a state has only existed for a few decades. Before that they were a colony, controlled by
the Turks and the British.
*nitpick*


I don't see why this matters. My point was that the 'national' claims are problematic. The individual claims of Palestinians to return to their homes need not be based in the rubric of nationalism and ethnic mythology. They are rooted in legalisms like: if I'm living here, you can't kick me out, no matter who you are and when your purporter ancestors commanded the word of the skyghost of your choosing...


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 01 November 2004 06:43 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BTW, one could also nitpick that Jewish nationalism is also a recent development, in spite of the usual claims of Jewish romantics.
From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 01 November 2004 06:47 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

It's not a canard. But in any case, don't tell me this; tell the Palestinians. Tell the Israelis. Tell the Americans. Let's see how they react.

...oh, right. We've already seen that.

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


You don't think the fact that some Muslims happen to treat some Jews better than some Christians is irrelevent?

That's what I was arguing.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 November 2004 06:53 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't see why this matters. My point was that the 'national' claims are problematic. The individual claims of Palestinians to return to their homes need not be based in the rubric of nationalism and ethnic mythology. They are rooted in legalisms like: if I'm living here, you can't kick me out, no matter who you are and when your purporter ancestors commanded the word of the skyghost of your choosing...

quote:
So what? What was an American before independence? What constitutes a Canadian? I think that a common struggle, a common experience of a given people in a given cultural, geopolitical situation, is as good a grounds as there is for national sentiment.

I agree with both of you. It was a rather pointless argument actually. I was attempting to be amusing, Like the nerd who says, "well actually, Leonard Nimoy has 100 nostril hairs, not 76"
I apologize, I should have put a smiley at the end of the statement.
Would anyone like to address the other part of my post.
Is most of the land abandoned by Palestinians standing empty, or has the Israeli government currently building on it?

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 01 November 2004 06:56 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

I agree with both of you. It was a rather pointless post actually.
Would anyone like to address the other part of my post.
Is most of the land abandoned by Palestinians standing empty, or has the Israeli government currently building on it?


A little of both. In many cases it is 'empty' but it is owned and operated by the military. It's one of the ways the land has been 'laundered' since 1948; i.e. giving it to the IDF so it can be used for "military purposes" and cannot be settled. This "military zone" thing was carried out in the Galilee - in a big way.

Check out the Absentees' Property Law (1950) and the Development Authority (Transfer of Property) Law also of 1950. There's a fair amount of literature on the internet and elsewhere about how the process of converting ethnically-cleansed Palestinian lands into Israeli territory was carried out.

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 01 November 2004 07:16 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
i always thought that the "palestinian land" whether it be muslem palestinians, christian palestinians or jewish palestinians was not just the present state of israel, occupied territories but also other land from before lines were drawn on a map. in the early 20th century

doesn't "old" palestine also include parts of the current countries of syria, lebanon and jordan?

just curious


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 November 2004 07:25 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No.

Palestine is part of Syria, as is Lebanon and Jordan.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 01 November 2004 07:25 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
i am not sure if this is the right area to post this. i was just sent the email and link below from a colleague in Paris and it is about Palestinian /Christian relations in Lebannon. is it true?

A Lebanese Christian talking about the pestinian massacres and Arafat's civil war..Murder of Christians, defecation in churches....Israel being pushed into the sea....Israel's aid to the christians...Israel is why her and her family are alive...It's all here told very eloquently...The reason the ME is the way it is now pretty much..

Brigitte Gabriel's Video:

http://www.phyllis-chesler.com/db_video.html


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 01 November 2004 07:27 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 01 November 2004 10:07 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zaklamont:
How Dr. Conway thinks a tiny nation like Israel can support new immigrants, in the lap of automatic comfort,with such ease and glee, as he describes it, is a mystery to me. Sure Israel looks after immigrants in the same manner, no greater , no less than most western countries. However, a recent article in Haaretz points out that the Jewish Agency (Israel's immigration agency) is cutting back.

Last I looked Canada didn't give no subsidized housing and no free money to no immigrants. Germany used to do that but only for East Germans that crossed "The Wall", and needed to get a fresh start in a noncommunist country.

quote:
Israel's key tourism industry has been wasted by a paucity of tourists, arising from terrorist attacks within the country. Another key industry, the high tech industry, has sufferred like everywhere else, including Canada.

Last I looked, Canada didn't have terrorists suicide bombing themselves everywhere because (a) it isn't applying the idiotic principle of doing the same thing even if it keeps not getting the results desired, which leads into (b) we happen to be, however haltingly, trying to deal with the problem of how we white folk (87% of the country according to StatsCan) got the wealth of this country without having to really pay for it, which means dealing with Aboriginal land claims and negotiating them honestly and with respect.

quote:
On top of that, as a small country it requires to invest hugely in defence.

This actually makes no sense at all. Costa Rica is a piddly little country and doesn't have a military at all, just to use a single data point.

quote:
I wish Dr. Conway would get off his SANCTIMONIOUS lazy ass, and do some research, aside from quoting from one man's experience.

Pot, meet kettle.

----

quote:
As spake by miles:
A Lebanese Christian talking about the pestinian massacres and Arafat's civil war..Murder of Christians, defecation in churches....Israel being pushed into the sea....Israel's aid to the christians...Israel is why her and her family are alive...It's all here told very eloquently...The reason the ME is the way it is now pretty much..

Brigitte Gabriel's Video:


]http://www.phyllis-chesler.com/db_video.html[/QUOTE]

Oh christ, Phyllis fucking Chesler. She's the Adam Fucking Yoshida of the pro-Israeli contingent.

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zaklamont
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posted 02 November 2004 02:03 AM      Profile for Zaklamont        Edit/Delete Post
More research done for a passive aggressive lazy sermon maker, also known as Dr Conway, who should be doing the research himself, instead of spewing Palestinian propaganda, light headedly.

The real life anecdote quoted below is from Roman Greenberg, an Israeli heavy weight world boxing championship contender who emigrated to Israel in the early 1980s with this family (admittedly a while ago, but I doubt the double intifadas have spurred the Israeli economy to acts of suicidal generosity since then)

============
From "Newsweek":

Greenberg was born in Russia in 1982 and speaks fluent Russian, Hebrew, German, and English. When he was ten, he moved with his parents and infant brother to Haifa.

"Some parts of my life were not so nice," Greenberg recalls. "When we arrived in Israel, it was quite hard. We lived on the streets; my parents, my little brother Alex, and me. It was not good in Russia, but those early days and nights in Israel were an absolute nightmare. There were times when we had nothing to eat. Those are the experiences that push people to get to the top. You do not even want to remember that something like that happened. My ambition is that my children will not have the same problems I had when I was young." - Newsweek (http://www.secondsout.com/USA/news.cfm?ccs=229&cs=12533)


From: Ottawa Ontario | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
may05
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posted 02 November 2004 07:14 AM      Profile for may05     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by miles:

but my point about palestinians is that their were jews who had and have as much claim to land as palestinians.. sometimes we forget that part as well

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: miles ]


NO, the Jewish community in Palestine before 1947 formed only 2% of the Palestinian population. Even if it was larger than that does this justify ethnically cleansening the palestinians ( muslims and christians)??!!!

No one would object the jews visiting and living in their "ancestors' land" in Palestine but not when a whole Palestian nation is exterminated in their land and the land of their ancestors..!!

The jews, christians and muslims lived peacefully in Palestine for centuries until zionism created that rogue state called israel on 1948.... we forget that part as well.

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: may05 ]


From: Earth | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 02 November 2004 10:38 AM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by dr. conway:

Oh christ, Phyllis fucking Chesler. She's the Adam Fucking Yoshida of the pro-Israeli contingent.

that may be the case but you did not answer my question which was could their be any truth to it. i actually have never heard of either phyllis or adam yoshida before so your comparison mean diddly squat to me


may05 i will not comment on whether or not jews, muslems and christians lived in peace for centuries since i think all three groups could point to countless hostilities against them


quote:
Originally posted by may05:

NO, the Jewish community in Palestine before 1947 formed only 2% of the Palestinian population.


i have never seen a hard number ever presented as to the percentage of jews that lived there.

what geographic area does this encompass? as i asked earlier but now with relevance to your figure. is this 2% figure of only what we now know of Israel or does it include Israel, Jordan, Syria and Lebannon?

as well maybe someone can anwer me this. were all arabs living in the pre line drawn in the sand palestine what we today call palestinians?

what was the breakdown of the (to use may05 number of 2% jews) 98% arab population


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 November 2004 11:09 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is a land ownership map of Israel-Palestine from 1945.

I'm having no success finding a modern version of this map (or a proper demographics map).

This document contains a series of maps outlining the depopulation of Arab centres in 1948.

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: Briguy ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2004 11:50 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This discussion underlines the requirement for a singular, secular, and democratic states with constitutional guarantees of minority rights.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 November 2004 12:06 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your ongoing drivel of a one state solution is no solution at all. Virtually everyone who has a true desire for peace advocates a two-state solution. They understand that to deny a Jewish democratic state is not only untenable but more importantly a denial of the right of Jews to be part of the family of nations.

Thankfully even most of the left understand this including Jack Layton.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 02 November 2004 12:14 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So I must assume Macabee that you are an advocate for the right of the Aboriginal peoples here in Canada, the US, South America and Australia as well as the Roma people to be part of the family of nations. Perhaps also the Quebec people, the Acadians, the Scottish, the Welsh, the Africaaners, the Kurds, and the Paelstinians? Et cetera, et cetera.

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2004 12:21 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of drivel ...

Your, and others, on-going advocacy for a race-based, apartheid-type state is what maintains violence.

It was the violent act of ethnic cleansing for a "Jewish" state that resulted in the refugee crisis. It is the ongoing "Jewish" expansion into the West Bank that precludes a viable Palestinian state. In fact, teh one thing Israel coudl have done to demonstrate its commitment to a two-state option was to ensure there was no settlement in the West bank. But rather they funded settler communities and then provided them with full citizenship and protection while denying Palestinians the same thing. That is apartheid. And now Israel wants to keep two-thirds of the territory and leave Palestinians with dry, desert Bantus surrounded by fences, Palestinian-only roads, and weapons. Just like South frica.

And who, excatly, in the Israeli government supports a two state solution? Mr. Formaldahyde and his boss the Butcher? Nethanyahu? Don't make me laugh.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 November 2004 12:22 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Your ongoing drivel

Y'know, Mac, Wingy's post was civil.

Yours isn't.

You trying to start a flame war?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 November 2004 12:27 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sara Mayo:
So I must assume Macabee that you are an advocate for the right of the Aboriginal peoples here in Canada, the US, South America and Australia as well as the Roma people to be part of the family of nations. Perhaps also the Quebec people, the Acadians, the Scottish, the Welsh, the Africaaners, the Kurds, and the Paelstinians? Et cetera, et cetera.

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]


Where they have democratic states established, yes.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 November 2004 12:33 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Y'know, Mac, Wingy's post was civil.

Yours isn't.

You trying to start a flame war?


Dear Skdadl

What in your moral opinion was uncivil about my post? You know how I feel about those who wish to dismantle the Jewish state.

We have stayed silent in the past and sadly it never worked in our favour. If Jews at times get testy over those who wish to deny us status in the family of nations, well you will just have to put up with it.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 November 2004 12:37 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 02 November 2004 12:38 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Where they have democratic states established, yes.

But if they are not yet established then they're straight of out luck for the future, eh?

The Roma get treated similarly as the Jews in the Holocaust, but because they of their relative obscurity and lack of visible leadership they miss out on establishing a democratic state and now are forever condemmed to a state-less life?

And what about the Africaaners? They had a state which met their own definition of democracy, so you had no problem with them using ethinicity to differentiate the rights of the people of South Africa? Come to think of it, I think you have mentionned that you were opposed to apartheid in South Africa. So I am confused... why is an ethnic state in South Africa unacceptable, but perfectly OK in the case of all the other ethnic groups I mentionned?


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 02 November 2004 12:41 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

It was the violent act of ethnic cleansing for a "Jewish" state that resulted in the refugee crisis.

not to nit pick but i do remember that most (and no i do not have a percentage to document that number) palestinians left "israel" after the un voted for partitian under the promise arab leaders such as the grand mufti of jerusalem that the arabs would kick the jews back into the sea. and then the palestinians would return

quote:

Mr. Formaldahyde and his boss the Butcher? Nethanyahu?

i just looked at a current list of knesset members who are formaldahyde and the butcher?

on a serious point though. assuming and i take the vote to leave the gaza as a first step towards a 2 state solution then 67 members of the knesset are in favour


how many palestinian leaders want a 2 state solution?


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 02 November 2004 12:45 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think the original article claims to be anything but a young Jewish-Canadian man's subjective experiences - good and bad - in Israel - discovering both much about the achievements of Jews and Israelis and the truncated historical narrative with respect to the denial of Palestinians' existence and their rights.

Jews in Canada (and Québec), France, Argentina, the US etc all have the right to vote and elect representatives, take part in social movements and otherwise act as citizens and as part of the "familiy of nations".

What was said here about Germany is interesting, both with respect to integrating "ethnic Germans" from the East and also welcoming all Jewish immigrants (mostly from the former Soviet Union and other former Eastern bloc countries - there are also some Israelis of German-Jewish origin who returned to the land of their grandparents)... as an expression of atonement for Nazi genocide of course.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2004 12:58 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
on a serious point though. assuming and i take the vote to leave the gaza as a first step towards a 2 state solution then 67 members of the knesset are in favour

Really, you should keep up with the news:
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=001067

quote:

how many palestinian leaders want a 2 state solution?

You really should be paying attention if you are going to participate in these debates. It is teh Israeli side that is opposed to a Palestinian state. Not the Palestinians.

Which sort of undermines all of Macabees santimonious moral outrage, doesn't it?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 02 November 2004 01:08 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

You really should be paying attention if you are going to participate in these debates. It is teh Israeli side that is opposed to a Palestinian state. Not the Palestinians.

it can be assumed that palestinians are in favour of a palestinian state and israelis in favour of the state of israel.

what i am asking is about the palestinian leadership, leaders in waiting, different polticial groups and their opinion to a 2 state solution.

for example are the leaders of hamas, islamic jihad, pflp etc those who might become president if arafat can not return to duty.

are these men and woman in favour of 2 states living side by side.

which ones are? which ones are not


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 November 2004 01:18 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sara Mayo:

But if they are not yet established then they're straight of out luck for the future, eh?

The Roma get treated similarly as the Jews in the Holocaust, but because they of their relative obscurity and lack of visible leadership they miss out on establishing a democratic state and now are forever condemmed to a state-less life?

And what about the Africaaners? They had a state which met their own definition of democracy, so you had no problem with them using ethinicity to differentiate the rights of the people of South Africa? Come to think of it, I think you have mentionned that you were opposed to apartheid in South Africa. So I am confused... why is an ethnic state in South Africa unacceptable, but perfectly OK in the case of all the other ethnic groups I mentionned?



Nice diversion sarah. Im focusing on states that are democratic. Im focusing on entities that exist. I feel for the Roma people and have supported them in time of need. I spent much time with members of the Roma community when they attended court sessions regarding those nazis that attacked them in Toronto. Were you there too?

Israel is an established Jewish state with a commonly understood democracy. It is part of the UN and other than a few on the fringes of society is recognized as part of the family of nations. It is fallible as any other nation and open to criticsm of its policies as any other nation. But it has a right to exist as a Jewish state. Those who would deny it that right are engaging in this century's anti-Semitism. That's is my honestly held belief. I thank God that there are only a tiny few who would deny Israel its legitimacy .


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 02 November 2004 01:27 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But it has a right to exist as a Jewish state. Those who would deny it that right are engaging in this century's anti-Semitism. That's is my honestly held belief. I thank God that there are only a tiny few who would deny Israel its legitimacy.

It amazes and saddens me that someone who calims to be so dedicated to the cause of fighting antisemetism would twist its definition for political ends.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 November 2004 02:40 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
not to nit pick but i do remember that most (and no i do not have a percentage to document that number) palestinians left "israel" after the un voted for partitian under the promise arab leaders such as the grand mufti of jerusalem that the arabs would kick the jews back into the sea.

Sorry miles, but you remember incorrectly. The Palestinians were being driven from their homes starting on (and a little befire) May 7, 1948 (through terrorism, I might add). The Arab response (which was IMO also illegal) didn't begin until Israel declared independance on May 15th, 1948.


Macabee, I'm so proud of you. You held back from the smears for almost a whole week. Bravo. On vacation?

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: Briguy ]

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: Briguy ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2004 03:08 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It amazes and saddens me that someone who calims to be so dedicated to the cause of fighting antisemetism would twist its definition for political ends.

And wonderfully, opposing a race based state is racism.

But let's have fun with Macabee's words:

"America is an established Aryan state with a commonly understood democracy. It is part of the UN and other than a few on the fringes of society is recognized as part of the family of nations. It is fallible as any other nation and open to criticsm of its policies as any other nation. But it has a right to exist as an Aryan state. Those who would deny it that right are engaging in this century's anti-white racism. That's is my honestly held belief. I thank God that there are only a tiny few who would deny America its legitimacy."

Does it still sound as warm and fuzzy as when Macabee said it?

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 November 2004 03:46 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by black_dog:

It amazes and saddens me that someone who calims to be so dedicated to the cause of fighting antisemetism would twist its definition for political ends.



You see it twisted only because it assuages your conscience.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 November 2004 03:48 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Macabee, I'm so proud of you. You held back from the smears for almost a whole week. Bravo. On vacation?

Only becuase up till then you were playing nice.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 02 November 2004 03:49 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, you'll notice I didn't mention Israel. I'm actually quite interested in this whole Africaaners thing. If they had a democratic ethinic state, you would support them? That's what I'm getting from what you've said.

So what was so undemocratic about pre-1994 South Africa?


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
kablunnanajuk
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posted 02 November 2004 03:52 PM      Profile for kablunnanajuk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I spent 30 minutes looking for pre-Israel population figures for "Palestine", and found a bunch. The only ones considered to be really accurate were from 1931.
A sample:

1878 = 470,000 (5% Jewish)
1920 = 750,000 (11% Jewish)
1931 = 1,033,000 (17% Jewish)
1946 = 1,877,000 (32% Jewish)

I also saw two different stories of the start of the 1948 fighting. The first large-scale Arab attack on a Jewish community was January 9th, and the first Jewish attack against the Arabs was April 9th.


From: 2000km from home (by road) | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 November 2004 03:54 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Only becuase up till then you were playing nice.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that posting links to historical dates and data constituted antisemitism. My bad.

Hey kablunnanajuk, I was wondering if that source I posted had it right. It seems pretty partisan to me, and the dates seemed a little close together. IIRC, the Stern gang spent a lot of time driving Arabs from their homes pre-1948, just as Jews were being driven from the more Arabic neighbourhoods. British stewardship of the Palestinian-Israeli area was far from a quiet time, that's for sure.

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: Briguy ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 November 2004 04:29 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sara Mayo:
Macabee, you'll notice I didn't mention Israel. I'm actually quite interested in this whole Africaaners thing. If they had a democratic ethinic state, you would support them? That's what I'm getting from what you've said.

So what was so undemocratic about pre-1994 South Africa?



South Africa was a racist state. Israel is not.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 November 2004 04:30 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that posting links to historical dates and data constituted antisemitism. My bad.

Hey kablunnanajuk, I was wondering if that source I posted had it right. It seems pretty partisan to me, and the dates seemed a little close together. IIRC, the Stern gang spent a lot of time driving Arabs from their homes pre-1948, just as Jews were being driven from the more Arabic neighbourhoods. British stewardship of the Palestinian-Israeli area was far from a quiet time, that's for sure.

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: Briguy ]


I think you are quoting the wrong person. I have no idea what you are referring to.

BMF


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 02 November 2004 04:35 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
has anyone been able to find a break down of the arab population yet? i have looked but have only found references to arabs and jews. but i am still wondering how the arab population was broken down.

are all arabs palestinians?


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 02 November 2004 04:36 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

South Africa was a racist state. Israel is not.

C'mon, Mac. We can go round the mulberry bush about this one 'til the sun burns out. You don't have to believe in the one-state solution, or disavow Zionism, to figure this one out. So long as there is an occupation, based on privileging on race over another, the state which perpetuates that occupation is de facto racist. It's a no-brainer, and doesn't even have to include restrictive marriage laws and race-specific immigration policies. Please. If the basics can't be acknowledged there's no way forward.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 02 November 2004 04:50 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You see it twisted only because it assuages your conscience.

No. Your definition of "this century's antisemetism" is what's twisted. It trivalizes true acts of antisemetism, lumping the rejection of a state based on race in with real historical and contemporary racism. And for what purpose? To support a political agenda and to perpetuate race-basede inequality and violence. But I guess I should at least salute your honesty: it's clear you're only interested is in representing Israel and and Jews: the devil take the rest of humanity.

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: black_dog ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2004 04:56 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's like a child covering his eyes with his hands believing if he can't see it, it isn't there.

But just to go through it one more time: macabee, are Jewish settlers in the West Bank citizens of Israel with all the rights, benefits and protection that status entails? Are the Palestinians living right next door afforded the same status?

Are their marriage laws? Pass laws? Separate roads for Palestinians?

As I recall the Afrikaaners insisted South Africa was democratic. It only means "apartness" they said. What does a two-state solution where one state is comprised of scraps and bones called?

Edited to add: If we were to be honest, and I know that is a stretch -- the facts on the ground, the settler expansion and the recent statements by Sharon, Bush and others that Israel would keep the settlements in the West Bank -- we would admit there is a defacto single state already where one segment of the population is not only unequal but denied any rights and any status at all.

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 02 November 2004 05:01 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
wingnut. how does your one secular state work then?

where is the capital, how are elections run. what constitutes a political party.

for example if a religious organization -- whether it be christian, muslem or jewish -- wanted to be form a political party and had the support to elect candidates yet their party policies were based soley upon the sacred texts of their religion would they be allowed?

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: miles ]


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2004 05:09 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where is the capital? I don't care.

Of course, just like here, any party is allowed. But an independent judiciary, police and military would be responsible for maintaining the integrity of the state including upholding the laws and protections expressed through constitutional guarantees.

So, a constitution guaranteeing freedom of reliogion, expression and association would free me from having to abide by your morality.

In Canada we have a multi-ethnic state where many call themselves christian but our supreme court struck down laws against abortion and against same-sex marriage in upholding our constitutional rights.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 02 November 2004 05:13 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
true but in canada we do not have any political parties based soley upon religious ideology.

a party based soley upon any religion could and would eventually undermine the tools of democracy required.

your reference to the supreme court is an interesting one. i agree with you that the canadian example works. ..but turning my head to the south. the us one is policized from the appointment process to the decision rendering

i do care where a capital is since the location of the capitals of both entities in the 2 state solution is one of if not the major stumbling block between the palestinians and the israelis

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: miles ]


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2004 05:23 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The location of the capital would be up to the parties. Why not Jerusalem?

However, a constitution with clear separation of church and state would prevent religius parties from being able to advance religious ideologies on those who oppose them.

I agree with your concerns with regard to political appointees to the supreme court. But there is no reason it could not be done better in Israel.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
kablunnanajuk
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posted 02 November 2004 05:30 PM      Profile for kablunnanajuk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:

...
Hey kablunnanajuk, I was wondering if that source I posted had it right. It seems pretty partisan to me, and the dates seemed a little close together. IIRC, the Stern gang spent a lot of time driving Arabs from their homes pre-1948, just as Jews were being driven from the more Arabic neighbourhoods. British stewardship of the Palestinian-Israeli area was far from a quiet time, that's for sure.


The websites I viewed (all obviously biased one way or another) agreed that the pre-partition violence heated up in November 1947, though large-scale attacks didn't begin until later.

I have a book at home (published by the NY Times) which details inter-ethnic violence in Palestrine going back to 1929. there was a major uprising in the lat 1930's.


From: 2000km from home (by road) | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
kablunnanajuk
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posted 02 November 2004 05:37 PM      Profile for kablunnanajuk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by miles:
has anyone been able to find a break down of the arab population yet? i have looked but have only found references to arabs and jews. but i am still wondering how the arab population was broken down.

are all arabs palestinians?


It seems that neither the Ottoman nor British rulers categorized the local population by that detailed an origin. The figures I found only counted by religion (muslim, jew, christian). It is generally extrapolated that all muslims are Arabs. The British counted place of birth in 1931, but Palestinians reject that criteria. They argue that many "immigrant" Arabs were members of palestinian Arab families who had previously migrated to other parts of the Ottoman Empire, and were simply returning to their homeland. But in any case, it is probably fair to say that the number of actual Palestinians was slightly smaller than the number of Muslims/Arabs.


From: 2000km from home (by road) | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 November 2004 05:37 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think you are quoting the wrong person. I have no idea what you are referring to.

I am quoting you, Mac. Well, mocking you, really.

Then I moved on, and tried to start discussing actual timelines with kablunnanajuk. I can see where the confusion comes from. I was trying to have a civil conversation with someone else (regarding historic events), while laughing at Macabee's smears. I'll try to separate my chuckles from my serious conversations in the future.

To be frank, the timing of the Israeli-Arab war of 1948 and the actions of certain leaders is inconsistant in some texts I've read. I don't know which came first, the declaration of war by the Arab countries or the wholesale* ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by the Israeli state. Not that it really matters...both sides were in the wrong, and Likud is still compounding Israel's original crime.

*I'm using this term to separate the 1948 actions from the earlier terrorist actions of the Stern Gang and their ilk.

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: Briguy ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 November 2004 06:05 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by black_dog:

No. Your definition of "this century's antisemetism" is what's twisted. It trivalizes true acts of antisemetism, lumping the rejection of a state based on race in with real historical and contemporary racism. And for what purpose? To support a political agenda and to perpetuate race-basede inequality and violence. But I guess I should at least salute your honesty: it's clear you're only interested is in representing Israel and and Jews: the devil take the rest of humanity.

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: black_dog ]



I have echoed what many Jewish and non-Jewish leaders, philosophers and thinkers of today have said about todays antisemitism. They include people like; Elie Wiesel, Simon Wiesenthal,Emanuele Ottolenghi,Esther Benbassa,Shulamit Imber, Phyllis Chesler,Todd Gitlin, Jeff Rose, Bob Rae, Anna Porter, I could go on. Yet of course these people are all wrong. You are the only one (in company with some other babblers and others on the fringe on this issue)that is right.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 02 November 2004 06:31 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not an Arab name in the bunch. Funny who gets to define what is, or is not, fringe.

Why aren't settlements fringe?

Is Tom Delay's embrace of "population transfer" fringe?


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 02 November 2004 06:57 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
But an independent judiciary, police and military would be responsible for maintaining the integrity of the state including upholding the laws and protections expressed through constitutional guarantees.

So, a constitution guaranteeing freedom of reliogion, expression and association would free me from having to abide by your morality.


when i look at the countries of the middle east their appears only to be one that currently meets most if not all of your requirements.....

the state of israel

therefore the model is there all that needs to be done is for a 2 state solution copy it to the PA after borders, capital, refugees etc are agreed upon


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 02 November 2004 07:00 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Not an Arab name in the bunch.

coyote i took macabees list to be one of those who have studied and assistend in defining "modern" anti-semitism.

no offense but why would an arab name make a difference to this list. it would be nice to see an arab scholar but is it required?


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 02 November 2004 07:07 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

I have echoed what many Jewish and non-Jewish leaders, philosophers and thinkers of today have said about todays antisemitism. They include people like; Elie Wiesel, Simon Wiesenthal,Emanuele Ottolenghi,Esther Benbassa,Shulamit Imber, Phyllis Chesler,Todd Gitlin, Jeff Rose, Bob Rae, Anna Porter, I could go on. Yet of course these people are all wrong. You are the only one (in company with some other babblers and others on the fringe on this issue)that is right.

That doesn't change a thing: they and you (for parroting them) are expanding the definition of anti-Semitism beyond its traditional definition as hostility towards Jews into a much broader category inclusive of political speech directed, not at Jews, but of the Israeli state. You and anyone else who adopts this line of thinking are arguing that Israel be exempted from the same standards applied to other democratic nations. Failure to do so is branded with the same label used to describe a pogrom.

The "new anti-Semitism" is a crock of shit, simply because it states the denial of Israel's right to exist is always anti-Semitic. No one (myself, or any other babbler included) has denied the right of Israel to exist, only it's right to claim to be an egalitarian, democratic state. A state predicated on race and religion, a state that denies certain segments of its population equality and basic rights and freedoms simply cannot truly be described as a democracy. That is the real point that your casual degradation of the term "anti-Semitism" seeks to obscure.

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: black_dog ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2004 07:07 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So your intent was merely to be disingenuous. I will keep that in mind for the future.

However, again, your lack of reading skills seem lacking. Israel does not respect the rights of Palestinians. Again I will remind you that in the West Bank Palestinians are without status, even as persons, unlike their Jewish neighbours in the settlements. That is hardly a state that protects equal rights.

Israel is a "Jewish" state as Macabee likes to point out so you can hardly argument there is a clear separation of church and state. In fact, extremist Jewish parties routinely attack non-Jews and non-observant Jews on the Sabbath, do they not?

Also, and I guess this will be a big shock to you, Israel is without a constitution to guarantee any rights never mind minority rights.

And finally, extremist Jews, like Sharon, are working hard to expel Arabs from East Jerusalem and to deny even the fictional Palestinian state a capital in East Jurusalem.

But I do agree the basis for a state is there. All that is left is the embracing of Israel's Palestinian brothers and sisters followed by the negotiation of a constitution acceptable to both.

What's the big deal?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 02 November 2004 07:18 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
So your intent was merely to be disingenuous. I will keep that in mind for the future.

But I do agree the basis for a state is there. All that is left is the embracing of Israel's Palestinian brothers and sisters followed by the negotiation of a constitution acceptable to both.

What's the big deal?


actually i was not attempting to be disigenous actually i was thinking about our discussion on the subway as i was leaving the office to go to a meeting and thought of it then

i guess you can blame the fumes from the toronto transit authority


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2004 07:23 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fair enough. And you can blame traffic for me being jumpy.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 02 November 2004 07:25 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Fair enough. And you can blame traffic for me being jumpy.

lol i heard the news as i was going to my car and heard that the dvp was worse than normal so i left it at my building and took the ttc

thank you 680news


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 02 November 2004 08:10 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by miles:

coyote i took macabees list to be one of those who have studied and assistend in defining "modern" anti-semitism.

no offense but why would an arab name make a difference to this list. it would be nice to see an arab scholar but is it required?


Because the context is one within which the status of a geo-political unit, Israel, is assigned as a litmus test for the definition of anti-Semitism. That geo-political unit, Israel, is founded upon the usurpation of territory and the ethnic cleansing of some 800,000 Palestinian Arabs. To this date, Israel illegally occupies Palestinian territory.

The point is, this definition of anti-Semitism can be, and often is, used as a bludgeon against valid criticism of Israel. Therefore, negation of the Arab word, and Arab speakers, is a central tenet of this definition.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 02 November 2004 08:28 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
t is fallible as any other nation and open to criticsm of its policies as any other nation. But it has a right to exist as a Jewish state.

States are not nations, and nations are not states. States may protect the rights of several nations at once. Usually these arrangements come out of expediency, such as when two distinct national groups are living in close proximety so that separating them is unrealistic and untenable for political, economic and geographic reasons.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 November 2004 08:30 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
South Africa was a racist state. Israel is not.

If it quacks like a duck....


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 02 November 2004 08:43 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ok fair enough it answers my question thank you.

quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
That geo-political unit, Israel, is founded upon the usurpation of territory and the ethnic cleansing of some 800,000 Palestinian Arabs. To this date, Israel illegally occupies Palestinian territory.


i am confused by this quote and i hope that i have just misunderstood. in the 21st century definition ethnic cleansing is equated with mass genocide ie murder of a race. most recently seen in the former yugoslavia, we saw it in rwanda etc.

therefore i do not want to put words in your mouth. Are you saying that the israelis murdered 800,000 palestinians?


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 02 November 2004 09:18 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You need a new dictionary, miles. Genocide is genocide. Ethnic cleansing - as distinct from genocide - refers to the act of coercing an ethnic group out of a certain geographic territory.
From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
may05
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posted 02 November 2004 09:23 PM      Profile for may05     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by miles:

may05 i will not comment on whether or not jews, muslems and christians lived in peace for centuries since i think all three groups could point to countless hostilities against them



you can deny and assert what you want but the fact remains that zionism had created the post 1947 hostilities... at least!

BTW, I heard the account of many Palestinian survivors of the israeli massacres ( now living in the refugee camps); And memories of the good relationship with the jewish and muslim neighbors was present along with other memories.

quote:
Originally posted by miles:

what geographic area does this encompass? as i asked earlier but now with relevance to your figure. is this 2% figure of only what we now know of Israel or does it include Israel, Jordan, Syria and Lebannon?



No, only Palestine, the land from the Dead Sea east to Mediterranean west.

quote:
Originally posted by miles:

as well maybe someone can anwer me this. were all arabs living in the pre line drawn in the sand palestine what we today call palestinians?


Here is a definition of the word arab from the dictionary

arab

n 1: a member of a Semitic people originally from the Arabian peninsula and surrounding territories who speaks Arabic and who inhabits much of the Middle East and northern Africa
Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

So, as you noticed arabs are those who speaks arabic and living in an area spreading all over the middle east and north africa... so not all arabs are Palestinian and the Palestinians are not the only arabs.


quote:
Originally posted by miles:

what was the breakdown of the (to use may05 number of 2% jews) 98% arab population

I guess you are talking about the 'whole' arab population implied in the dictionary definition...
Then your question is very crucial...

Actually 54 years after the creation of israel, the arabs from different countries are still calling themselves brothers and believe in their unity - at least at the public level- they were one entity, the whole middle east and north africa, until the post WWI secret agreements (Sykes-Pico 1916) between colonial French and Britain to 'dissect' the arab world according to their needs.
So the area now called syria and lebanon was under french "mandate" and what is called now Iraq and Palestine and Jordan were under british "mandate"... the same applies for other arabic states Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco...etc.
Here is the sykes-pico agreement

I hope this answers...

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: may05 ]


From: Earth | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 02 November 2004 09:27 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:
You need a new dictionary, miles. Genocide is genocide. Ethnic cleansing - as distinct from genocide - refers to the act of coercing an ethnic group out of a certain geographic territory.

blzeebub that is why i worded my question so carefully. i did not want to insinuate something if i was incorrect


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 November 2004 09:44 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Not an Arab name in the bunch. Funny who gets to define what is, or is not, fringe.

Why aren't settlements fringe?

Is Tom Delay's embrace of "population transfer" fringe?



I agree to some extent. As a matter of fact I believe that jews get to best define anti-Semitism.

quote:
Also, and I guess this will be a big shock to you, Israel is without a constitution to guarantee any rights never mind minority rights.


When exactly did Canada get its own constitution?

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 November 2004 09:58 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It took far too long but we do have one. And historically Canada was a colony and the British Nort America Act served the purpose of our constitution. What is Israel's excuse?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
may05
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posted 02 November 2004 09:58 PM      Profile for may05     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

South Africa was a racist state. Israel is not.

Have you heard of the apartheid wall??!!
That structure the Israeli propaganda call 'a fence'??!!


From: Earth | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 November 2004 10:11 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by may05:

Have you heard of the apartheid wall??!!
That structure the Israeli propaganda call 'a fence'??!!


You mean the barrier that was established to protect Muslims, Jews, Christians and othew
rs from homicidal maniacs and terrorists? Yes I heard of it. You though must have it confused with something else.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 November 2004 03:28 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Remembering Yitzhak Rabin: Rekindling optimistic hope for peace

quote:
I spent part of this past summer on a free trip to Israel. As opposed to the more familiar Birthright program that sponsors Canadian-Jews who have little connection to Israel and have never been to the country, my trip was exclusive to Jewish-Canadian students who have a strong and developed interest in Middle Eastern politics. Some features of my trip included a visit to a checkpoint, speakers from the Palestinian authority, meetings with Israeli-Arab journalists, a talk with a former Israeli prime minister, visits to army bases on Israel's northern border, and discussions with members of the far left and the far right. This article's intention is to share both the most moving experience of my trip and to inform the SFU student body on a crucial event in Israeli history. The connection between my two purposes is the memory of Yitzhak Rabin.

From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 03 November 2004 04:55 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Their are in fact anti-Semites who under the pretext of defending the cause of the Palestinian people, attack Jews and Jewish institutions. They say things like " the Jews are doing to the Palestinians exactly what Hitler did to the Jews and nobody says anything!"
It's not fashionable to attack Jews in general anymore, so they attack Jews as Israelis. According to them, every Jew supports the policies of Sharon and the Imperial ambitions of people like Paul Wolfowitz.

Of course, with the Israeli government condemning even mild criticism of the Israeli state as anti-Semitic, it's becoming very difficult tell who is a an actual Jew hater and who isn't.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
kablunnanajuk
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posted 03 November 2004 05:20 PM      Profile for kablunnanajuk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's an unfair comparison to say that the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to the Jews. The South African example is a much better one. The system of passports and roadblocks for Palestinians, and the fact that so many of them have served as cheap labour for the Israeli economy, are almost exact parallels.

That said, I don't think it's fair to call the "security fence" an "apartheid wall". The fence won't keep the Palestinians in their bantustans, but it might reduce the guerrilla attacks which have wracked the area since the 1930's.


From: 2000km from home (by road) | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 03 November 2004 05:50 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"security fence" an "apartheid wall". The fence

And calling it a fence is fucked up. It's a wall. Only a fool would pretend that it's not.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 03 November 2004 06:05 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's an unfair comparison to say that the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to the Jews.

I know that. I was just using that as an example of the kind of rhetoric that some anti-Semites use in the Post Holocaust world. A one state solution would prevent attacks of this kind.

I'm not sure about the wall. Gush Shalom, Israel's largest Zionist peace organization, has said the wall has done tons of damage to the Palestinian economy. Are they wrong?

[ 03 November 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 03 November 2004 06:43 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No. They are not wrong.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
may05
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posted 03 November 2004 09:36 PM      Profile for may05     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
You mean the barrier that was established to protect Muslims, Jews, Christians and othew
rs from homicidal maniacs and terrorists? Yes I heard of it. You though must have it confused with something else.

You probably have not heard about it!!
That thing you refuse to call an aparthied wall is a 25 feet(8 meter) high and 403 miles(650 km) long. It was build on an occupied land and the direct consequences of it were:

  • Stealing more Palestinian land.
  • Depriving more families from their source of living, i.e. their crops
  • Damaging thousands of planted acres.
  • killing the hope of a viable Palestinian state.
  • Preventing the Palestinians from reaching their land, hospitals, schools, relatives...etc.
  • ...etc.
...and ofcourse ethnic cleansing continues.

so when you iterate the big israeli lie about this being a security issue keep that in mind...

and FYN, the ICJ has made its decision back in july.

quote:
Israel’s international responsibility - Israel obliged to comply with the international obligations it has breached by the construction of the wall - Israel obliged to put an end to the violation of its international obligations - Obligation to cease forthwith the works of construction of the wall, to dismantle it forthwith and to repeal or render ineffective forthwith the legislative and regulatory acts relating to its construction, save where relevant for compliance by Israel with its obligation to make reparation for the damage caused - Israel obliged to make reparation for the damage caused to all natural or legal persons affected by construction of the wall.

http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/idocket/imwp/imwp_advisory_opinion/imwp_advis ory_opinion_20040709.htm

What was the result?! A blind ear turned by israel, like the other dozens of resolutions ignored! (After all, what to expect from such a rogue state?!)

"homicidal maniacs and terrorists",I guess you are talking about those brave heroes that chose to fight israeli terrorism instead of watching and waiting a "random" bullet to kill them!

You though must have them confused with something else!!


From: Earth | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
may05
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posted 03 November 2004 09:45 PM      Profile for may05     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Their are in fact anti-Semites who under the pretext of defending the cause of the Palestinian people, attack Jews and Jewish institutions. They say things like " the Jews are doing to the Palestinians exactly what Hitler did to the Jews and nobody says anything!"
It's not fashionable to attack Jews in general anymore, so they attack Jews as Israelis. According to them, every Jew supports the policies of Sharon and the Imperial ambitions of people like Paul Wolfowitz.

Of course, with the Israeli government condemning even mild criticism of the Israeli state as anti-Semitic, it's becoming very difficult tell who is a an actual Jew hater and who isn't.


Agree, It is just disgusting how zionism always tries to make such a mix... that zionism is judaism! This effort itself victimize the jews. There should be a clear distinction between ziomism, the racist idealogy, and jeduism, the religion. No religion accepts what the zionist state does for the Palestinians... I have met alot of pro-palestinian jews.
But israel's response to critizism by 'anti-semitic accusations' proves its non-democratic racist nature.


From: Earth | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 04 November 2004 12:34 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Zionism is complex. Not all Zionists are racist.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
salaam
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posted 04 November 2004 09:55 AM      Profile for salaam     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please name at least one living Zionist individual or group that isn't racist in any form.

racism: “Any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment, or exercise, on equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, or any other field of public life.”


From: exile | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 04 November 2004 10:24 AM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by salaam:
Please name at least one living Zionist individual or group that isn't racist in any form.

my initial thought is israels peace now group


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 04 November 2004 11:49 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uri Avenry
Ed Broadbent
Ben Halper

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 04 November 2004 11:56 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by may05:

"homicidal maniacs and terrorists",I guess you are talking about those brave heroes that chose to fight israeli terrorism instead of watching and waiting a "random" bullet to kill them!

You though must have them confused with something else!!



No confusion. But your support of suicide bombers is no justb horrid but a complete departure from almost every Babbler I know who despite strong anti-Israel feelings has NEVER supported suicide bombers.

In fact I always thought that those who support and advocate murder on Babble are banned. I hope you become one of them.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 04 November 2004 12:05 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
(biting my tongue) Owie.

Nope, can't do it.

Now, Macabee, may05 didn't say a thing about suicide bombers in the statement you quoted. He/she could very well have been referring to the gunmen who try and prevent the IDF from invading Palestinian cities and refugee camps with the goal of razing a few houses. You should be ashamed of putting words in other people's mouths after accusing others of that so many times in the past.

[ 04 November 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 04 November 2004 12:20 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mac, nothing in may05's post gives the impression that she supports Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Read it again.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 04 November 2004 12:25 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:
(biting my tongue) Owie.

Nope, can't do it.

Now, Macabee, may05 didn't say a thing about suicide bombers in the statement you quoted. He/she could very well have been referring to the gunmen who try and prevent the IDF from invading Palestinian cities and refugee camps with the goal of razing a few houses. You should be ashamed of putting words in other people's mouths after accusing others of that so many times in the past.

[ 04 November 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]



Give me a break. Unless she specifically recants this statement or at least clarifies it is an obvious interpretation.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
salaam
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posted 04 November 2004 12:34 PM      Profile for salaam     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know Ed Broadbent or Ben Halper, but despite all the good they may do or say, Peace Now and Uri Avnery as far as I know believe that Israel's "Jewish character" overrides the right of refugees to return to their homes. Actively supporting exclusive demographic majority, and political power for one ethnic group at the expense of another's basic human rights is clearly a racist position.
I think this is also the main position that defines them as Zionist.

From: exile | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 04 November 2004 12:45 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
cbs radio news, radio out of monte carlo and israeli tv are both reporting that yasser arafat is "clinically dead"

palestinian authoraty prime minister denies the story.

prime minister of luxembourg has announced arafats death according to cfrb 1010 news radio


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 04 November 2004 12:47 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Another day, another 'obvious interpretation'.

quote:
originally posted by Macabee:
That said, I find it pretty offensive that you would respond in this way. I did not call you an anti-Semite, did not infer it, not even close. But you would start such a flame war for what reason exactly? Please Ms.Moderator we both know your statement was unecessay and provocative.

So let me get this straight: you, and only you, are allowed to make the call as to what's an 'obvious interpretation'?


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2776

posted 04 November 2004 01:01 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So let me get this straight: you, and only you, are allowed to make the call as to what's an 'obvious interpretation'?

Obviously.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 04 November 2004 01:03 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh look, what a long thread.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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