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Author Topic: Another Barbaric Murder of a Palestinian Child.
Cueball
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posted 12 October 2004 02:54 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israelis probe Gaza girl shooting

quote:
It is unusual for the army to launch an investigation into the circumstances of such incidents.

But the death of Iman al-Hams is different because soldiers have complained publicly about the behaviour of their commander - who has not been named.


quote:
It was reported that the Israeli troops had initially thought her satchel contained explosives - although it was found only to contain school books.

[ 16 October 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 12 October 2004 03:53 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Five bucks says this gets all the attention of a whitewash when the IDF "investigates".

quote:
Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Moshe Ayalon defended his troops on Sunday, telling the Israeli cabinet that Iman al-Hams had been sent towards the outpost to draw out the soldiers so that Palestinian snipers could fire at them.

Oh, BALLS! This has all the credibility of George W. Bush's assertions about Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq.

If the IDF's people are going to prevaricate and "Deny, Deny, Deny" (TM Colin Thatcher, 1985), the least they could do is try to come up with a less flimsy excuse. This one has all the strength of kleenex.

quote:
Her brother Ihab al-Hams angrily brushed off news of the investigation.

"Will this bring her back to life? Will this bring her back home? Will this heal our wound?" he told reporters.

"They are murderers and they killed her in cold blood."


Five bucks also says this kid becomes a suicide bomber in a few years.

Bravo, IDF! Your brave soldier shot an unarmed teenage civilian so he could feel all macho and big about himself and in the process has probably created the conditions for yet another turn of the wheel of violence.

Never let it be said that the IDF's soldiers were worried about picking on someone their own size.

[ 12 October 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]

[ 12 October 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
KM
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posted 12 October 2004 04:14 AM      Profile for KM     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Craziness. Are there not international standards for the military that Isreal is subject to? How can they get away with that? I'm not familiar with the United Nations and international law. Of course, not that it will bring her back
However they still shouldn't get away with it.

From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 12 October 2004 09:01 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
While Iman was lying, wounded or dead, about 70m from the Israeli guard post, the platoon commander approached her and fired two bullets from close range at her head, the soldiers said.

He then went back a second time, put his weapon on the automatic setting and - ignoring their objections on the walkie-talkie - emptied his entire magazine into her body.

"We couldn't believe what he had done. Our hearts ached for her. Just a 13-year-old girl," one soldier said.

Heavily-armed Israeli outposts line Gaza's border with Egypt
"How do you spray a girl from close range? He was hot for a long time to take out terrorists and shot the girl to relieve pressure," the soldier added.



From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 October 2004 09:09 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank-you for starting this thread, Cueball.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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posted 12 October 2004 07:25 PM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The whole reason societies train soldiers, and equip them with powerful weapons and armour, is so that they can take some risk in an effort to save the lives of non-combattants. The "she might have been a ter'rist drawing us out" line just doesn't fly - it's a soldier's goddamn job to go out and check, even if there is risk involved. Especially when dealing with a minor. Let's hope they don't just scapegoat the admittedly odious seeming commander on this, let's hope it leads to a rethinking of how soldiers are expected to respond to civilians.
From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 October 2004 05:49 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The whole reason societies train soldiers, and equip them with powerful weapons and armour, is so that they can take some risk in an effort to save the lives of non-combattants.

I am really not convinvced that the evidence supports this thesis.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ScepticOne
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posted 13 October 2004 07:51 PM      Profile for ScepticOne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Craziness. Are there not international standards for the military that Isreal is subject to?"
A simple answer: NO!

From: Québec | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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posted 14 October 2004 12:55 AM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball: It's more of a moral argument than a thesis. I should have made it clear that I am not naive enough to think this is how armies are used, just how they should be used.
From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 October 2004 01:04 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was playing off you, not against you.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 14 October 2004 02:33 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
sorry

[ 14 October 2004: Message edited by: Hailey ]


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Save Timber Wolves
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posted 16 October 2004 01:35 AM      Profile for Save Timber Wolves     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One should carefully note that Isarel is investigating this brutal act by their own soldier. Courageous and civilized countries prosecute their own wrongdoers as Israel surely will.

By contrast, with regard to Hamas,this coward tops them all. This "revolutionary" firebrand was quite willing to send two probably teenage jihadis to their death to slaughter other innocents. He comes out of his house when he's about to get his opportunity to meet his 72 virgins, waving a white flag, knowing that the Israelis he's been whipping people into hatred against will treat him humanely.

The Hamas leaders have lost all attributes of humanity. Sorry if it's not politically correct. It's how I feel.

Publication:The New York Sun; Date ct 14, 2004; Section:Front page; Page:1


HAMAS TERROR CHIEF ARRESTED BY ISRAEL TROOPS

DIRECTED BEERSHEBA ATTACK

By MARGOT DUDKEVITCH

Israeli troops yesterday arrested the commander of Hamas’s military wing in Hebron, Imad Kawasmeh, the man responsible for sending two suicide bombers to Beersheba two months ago.The bombers blew up two buses almost simultaneously and killed 17 Israelis.

Security forces are placing a high value on Mr. Kawasmeh’s capture.

Acting on intelligence information, Egoz and Nahal units surrounded a Hebron building Mr. Kawasmeh was hiding in on Tuesday night and were told by locals that there was nobody inside.Troops were not convinced and Israeli Defense Force bulldozers began demolishing the building, at which stage Mr. Kawasmeh walked out waving a white flag.

*snip*

[ 16 October 2004: Message edited by: Save Timber Wolves ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 16 October 2004 02:00 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One should carefully note that Isarel is investigating this brutal act by their own soldier. Courageous and civilized countries prosecute their own wrongdoers as Israel surely will.

And one should carefully note that (as in the article about this brutal murder : )

quote:
It is unusual for the army to launch an investigation into the circumstances of such incidents.

But the death of Iman al-Hams is different because soldiers have complained publicly about the behaviour of their commander - who has not been named.


And I want to personally thank you for keeping this thread alive.

[ 16 October 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
JBG
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posted 16 October 2004 02:03 AM      Profile for JBG     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, this article should interest you.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=70265

[ 16 October 2004: Message edited by: JBG ]


From: Harrison, New York | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 16 October 2004 02:16 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Courageous and civilized countries prosecute their own wrongdoers as Israel surely will.

I'm amazed it took 4 whole days for some apologist to plunk that tired old canard onto this thread.

Yawn.

JBG: thanks for the link to that frothingly insane settler/fundamentalist website. Do you have a point other than to prove that some Israelis are just as frightening and fanatical as any Hamas member could be?

And WTF's with the yellow-hilite shit?


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 16 October 2004 02:18 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well thats interesting. So he might have some accomplices. She is a supposed 'decoy' for terrorists. Hmmm. One would think that she would be an interesting interview, this unarmed school-book laden juvenile. Too bad she dead.

They shot her at 100 meters. The bomb blast for a bomb made up of C4 in a small school bag has a kill radius of like (what?) 20 meters.

quote:
IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Moshe Yaalon told the Cabinet this week that the girl had been dispatched by terrorists as a decoy in order to draw out soldiers and turn them into targets for terrorist snipers. Yaalon explained that the girl was in a closed military area. In addition, the girl reportedly threw a bag at them - a suspicious move, under the circumstances, even though the bag was later found to contain only schoolbooks and no explosives.

Dispatched by terrorist? Moshe Yaalon seems right in the thick of things, right down to knowing exactly what some 13 year old kid in Gaza is doing. With that kind of intelligence you'd think they'd have the whole Hamas thing cleared up.

She was supposed to draw the soldiers out. Why would the soldiers be disposed to expose themselves by walking 100 meters to the kid? They didn't they "immediatly opened fire." Why not wait for her to come to them and shoot her at say, 20 meters.

She threw a bag at the soldiers according to Yaalon. How far? 100 meters? She is 13.

Try this, realizing that she was in a restricted area, and seeing Israeli soldiers she threw her school bag away from her in order to show the soldiers she was unarmed. Bombs have to be triggered by the bomber, as I am sure you know. They do not throw their bombs at the soldiers. It might have been a remote control device but since a school girl is unlikely to be able to throw her school bag more than 10 meters, it would seem that the bag might have been 90 meters away from the outpost -- not even close to blast range.

I see the commander walked out of the outpost and up to the body. Where are Yaalon's snipers now. Wasn't her intention to draw the soldiers out for a sniper bullet? Well here is one (the commander) walking right up to her. A Perfect target.

Why is he alive, this "commander?" Yaalon's snipers are a fantasy. A lie as bold, and clumsy and stupid as the Soviet lie concoted to justify shooting down KAL 007. She was just a girl lost wandering around, at best she may have been spying.

Your story sucks. Try cold blooded murder.

I see your "soldiers" (Lets call them that) claim that the soldiers who have made a complaint against their "commander" (lets call him that) have ulterior motives. Perhaps their ulterior moitve is they are tired of being led by a nutcase. Nutcases are dangerous to serve under.

[ 16 October 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 16 October 2004 02:38 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"We couldn't believe what he had done. Our hearts ached for her. Just a 13-year-old girl," one soldier said.

"How do you spray a girl from close range? He was hot for a long time to take out terrorists and shot the girl to relieve pressure," the soldier added.


That's from a guy who witnessed this murder.

Yaalon is lying, which is SOP for the Israelis. They'll lie, as they did about the "missiles" being loaded into UN ambulances, until they get called on their lies.

Then they switch stories.

Sadly, it's a familiar pattern.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 October 2004 11:04 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes.

quote:
Why is he alive, this "commander?" Yaalon's snipers are a fantasy.

Yes.

I see that they have indeed retracted the claim about the ambulance.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
JBG
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posted 16 October 2004 11:45 AM      Profile for JBG     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by beluga2:

JBG: thanks for the link to that frothingly insane settler/fundamentalist website. Do you have a point other than to prove that some Israelis are just as frightening and fanatical as any Hamas member could be?

Somebody IM'd that link to me. I don't read that regulary.

From: Harrison, New York | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 16 October 2004 12:29 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you're so embarrassed by your sources, why use them in the first place?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
aa
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posted 16 October 2004 03:12 PM      Profile for aa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh no, no ! Yaalon doesnt lie. Why just yesterday, the IDF declared that of the over one hundred Palestinians killed over the past two weeks, only seven civillians were killed. Not seventy, or seventeen, but seven.

And that girl, being a terrorist decoy, counts as a terrorist, and not a civillian, of course.


From: montreal | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 16 October 2004 06:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shouldn't ride him for soucring material. Its a damn sight better than a lot of folks. And, yes it may be a sight for wackos but the information in the article and testimonies seem like things that were likely said, even if they are lies.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 16 October 2004 06:44 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And amazingly enough, the officer has been cleared of any charges!!
Israeli Soldier cleared in teens shooting

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Cueball
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posted 16 October 2004 06:47 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Meanwhile, the commander has been suspended because of "failures" in his "ability to command and in his relations with his subordinates," the IDF statement said.


Because he is a nut, and everyone know it.

So! it took 7 days to 'investigate' this incident, and clear the "commander" of this charge. A proper forensic's report can't even have been completed, or properly read by the court.

[ 16 October 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 16 October 2004 07:23 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One should carefully note that Isarel is investigating this brutal act by their own soldier. Courageous and civilized countries prosecute their own wrongdoers as Israel surely will.

So, still see a connection between Israel and a "Courageous and civilized countr[y]"?

I am at a loss to understand how Canada can continue to have any political or economical relationships with this racist country!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 16 October 2004 08:40 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
And amazingly enough, the officer has been cleared of any charges!!
Israeli Soldier cleared in teens shooting

I'm collecting my five bucks from Macabee if I ever meet him, because (a) I bet $5, and (b) he always claims the IDF will investigate itself with all the zeal and vigor one expects from an armed forces in a "Western" country.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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posted 16 October 2004 09:21 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Save Timber Wolves:
One should carefully note that Isarel is investigating this brutal act by their own soldier. Courageous and civilized countries prosecute their own wrongdoers as Israel surely will.


How can a country be courageous?


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 16 October 2004 11:47 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

I'm collecting my five bucks from Macabee if I ever meet him, because (a) I bet $5, and (b) he always claims the IDF will investigate itself with all the zeal and vigor one expects from an armed forces in a "Western" country.



Does the United Fruit Company own any orchards in Israel?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 17 October 2004 12:23 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If they don't, it'd be a great time for them to move on in considering the way Sharon's giving the country away to any big business that pays his price.

(Incidentally, does Israel grow bananas?)

[ 17 October 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 October 2004 08:15 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It certainly grows corn, and exports it to Europe.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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posted 18 October 2004 03:15 AM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Given the speed with which this guy was cleared by the IDF, it would seem Israel breeds kangaroos as well.
From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 18 October 2004 08:32 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:

So, still see a connection between Israel and a "Courageous and civilized countr[y]"?

I am at a loss to understand how Canada can continue to have any political or economical relationships with this racist country!


Well, I dunno about courageous and civilized countries. But Canada, sure. I mean, to note a couple of Vancouver incidents, when our cops drag comatose First Nations guys out of the drunk tank into the winter cold to die, or beat the teeth out of people with batons on video who were just trying to get away, etc. etc., the cop inquiry always seems to say there was no wrongdoing. Very similar institutional dynamic, really. Just imagine how Vancouver's finest would react if they were in a situation where there was actual danger involved? I expect they'd be kid-killing alongside the IDF no questions asked.

The moral is, whether in Israel or Canada, never let armed authorities investigate themselves.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 18 October 2004 09:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
True enough but the Dudley George thing has been under investigation and in the courts for a life-time. I doubt that the parent of the Palestian child involved will feel able to resort to Israeli courts.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 18 October 2004 09:59 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You'll get no argument from me that any country could find themselves in exactly the same situation if they aren't constantly watcing out for abuses from those assigned to do the "proection" . . . but while all countries have their "regrettable instances", some countries have a knack for having a lot more "instances" and a lot less "regret".

South Africa was a similar situation and needed to be dealth with . . . now it's Isael's turn.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 21 October 2004 10:52 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Guardian followup on this murder

quote:
This week, the officer responsible for the Gaza strip, Major General Dan Harel, completed his investigation and pronounced that the company commander had not acted unethically in the shooting of Iman but was being suspended for losing the confidence of his soldiers.

The speed of the investigation has revealed once again the cursory nature of the army's inquiries into such shootings. A more thorough investigation usually only follows if there is external pressure, such as in the case of three Britons shot dead by Israeli soldiers over the past two years.

The military has quietly dropped an investigation into the killing by an Israeli sniper of a brother and sister, both teenagers, in Rafah in May. The army falsely claimed that the pair were killed by a Palestinian bomb and only began the investigation after journalists found the bodies of the children and reported that both had a single shot to the head.

Under pressure from the revelations of the Shaked battalion soldiers, the military police has launched a separate investigation into the death of Iman al-Hams. The soldiers say they will insist that it is completed.



From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 21 October 2004 11:17 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why would it be unethical (nevermind criminal)? She was Palestinian.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
JBG
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posted 22 October 2004 01:02 AM      Profile for JBG     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now let's see someone find a problem with this Israeli strike:

Israeli Missile Kills Hamas Weapons Maker
By THE NEW YORK TIMES

Published: October 22, 2004


By: The New York Times

JERUSALEM, Oct. 21 - An Israeli airstrike in Gaza City on Thursday night killed a leading weapons maker of Hamas who was responsible for some of the group's most powerful bombs and its homemade rockets, Israel's military said.

A white sedan carrying the bomb maker, Adnan al-Ghoul, and his aide, Imad Abbas, was hit by two missiles and burst into flames, according to Palestinian witnesses. The two men were killed and four Palestinians on the street were wounded, according to doctors at Shifa Hospital.

Over the past year and a half, Israel has carried out a series of strikes against the most senior figures in Hamas. Mr. Ghoul was the No. 2 man in Hamas's armed wing. Israel has tried to kill him on at least four previous occasions.

According to Israel's military, Mr. Ghoul made the bombs used in suicide attacks against Israel that date to 1995, with a death toll in the dozens. More recently, he built large, powerful explosives that were used against Israeli tanks in Gaza. The military said he was the crucial figure in developing the Qassam rocket; Hamas has fired more than 400 Qassam rockets from Gaza in the past three years.

Earlier on Thursday, an Israeli soldier was killed when a bomb exploded along the road that Israeli forces patrol on Gaza's border with Egypt, the military said. Hamas claimed responsibility.

In northern Gaza, Israeli forces shot dead two armed Palestinians who were crawling toward a border fence trying to enter Israel, the military said.


From: Harrison, New York | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 22 October 2004 01:11 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Extracts from the article quoted in order that I can respond:

quote:
A white sedan carrying the bomb maker, Adnan al-Ghoul, and his aide, Imad Abbas, was hit by two missiles and burst into flames, according to Palestinian witnesses. The two men were killed and four Palestinians on the street were wounded, according to doctors at Shifa Hospital.

Well, apparently the idiots still couldn't aim well enough to avoid injuring four people who had nothing to do with it.

quote:
In northern Gaza, Israeli forces shot dead two armed Palestinians who were crawling toward a border fence trying to enter Israel, the military said.

Were they shot in the back, as is standard IDF procedure?

[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 22 October 2004 01:14 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The first is an extra-judicial killing carried out by an occupying power which has responsibilities to the occupied people, and thus any military action which can potentially harm or kill civilians needlessly is strictly prohibited under international law.

The second, however, can be argued to be justified given the imminence of the threat.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 October 2004 02:07 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is no international law.

The rape of Palestine has given us 37 years to mull this over.

The USA's invasion of Iraq (and Grenada, Panama, etc.) further demonstrates that the Nuremburg Trials meant nothing.

The big battalions, not any moral or legal code, dictate international law.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 22 October 2004 06:39 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyway I don' think I could shoot children, illegal or not.

quote:
The accounts of Palestinian witnesses back the claims of the protesting soldiers.

Fuad Zourob was working at a small brick factory overlooking the area where Iman was shot. "The girl was walking in the sand. She was shot from the army post. She was hit in the leg and she was crawling.

"Then she stood up and started to try and run and then she fell. The shooting went on. The soldiers arrived by foot. One came close to the girl and started to shoot. He walked away, turned back and then shot her some more," he said.


A schoolgirl riddled with bullets. And no one is to blame

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 22 October 2004 08:23 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
JBG, you should take a hint from the professional apologists and avoid this thread. There are no points available here.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 22 October 2004 11:53 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JBG:
Now let's see someone find a problem with this Israeli strike:

Israeli Missile Kills Hamas Weapons Maker
By THE NEW YORK TIMES

Published: October 22, 2004


By: The New York Times

JERUSALEM, Oct. 21 - An Israeli airstrike in Gaza City on Thursday night killed a leading weapons maker of Hamas who was responsible for some of the group's most powerful bombs and its homemade rockets, Israel's military said.


First of all, I believe very little of what Israel's military says. The case of Iman should tell us all we need to know about how the IDF operates. How do we know this guy was who they say he was? Extrajudicial assasinations are not only against international law, they undermine the credibility of Israel as a state that believes in the rule of law over vigilante justice.

In fact, the strike, much like the murder of Iman (not to mention the farce of an investigation) demonstrate the IDF's continuing failure to abide by the Geneva Conventions.

[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 22 October 2004 04:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Failure to abide" by Geneva. "Deliberate contravention" of Geneva, surely?

quote:
JBG, you should take a hint from the professional apologists and avoid this thread. There are no points available here.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 22 October 2004 04:42 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think what happened here is obvious. The Israeli army taught the Palestinians not even a child straying into a "forbidden area" will be treated with even a hint of mercy but rather will be met with an absolute ferocity. This was a lesson and nothing more. It is why the soldier responsible was cleared. His actions were not "unethical" for the treatment of animals which is how Israel has come to view Palestinians.

History will be harsh.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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Babbler # 3308

posted 22 October 2004 04:43 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
JBG, I am prepared to believe that there exists a case such that IDF killed someone and they were justified in doing so (Although the IDF saying so isn't enough of a reason to believe it).
Similarly, Paul Bernardo could hypothetically kill someone who was about to execute a bunch of hostages. Would I then be willing to invite him into my home and introduce him to my daughter? I think not. He'd still be a scumsucking murderer and rapist. Similarly, the IDF killing someone justifiably for a change would not suddenly make all the children they killed OK.

From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged

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