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Author Topic: Another barbaric beheading
Macabee
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posted 08 October 2004 08:45 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ken Bigley beheaded


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 October 2004 04:11 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am confining my comments and posts to a more dignified thread with a less politicized title, that has been in progress over the last week, wherein numerous people have made their concern known, throughout Mr. Bigley's ordeal. It is here:

Tony Blair: Save Mr Bigley

I think you would do well not to use every death as a means of pushing your polititical agenda. it does nothing for your cause, embarrasses us all and diminishes the memory of life which has been lost.

[ 09 October 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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posted 10 October 2004 07:34 PM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just for the record, I think the word barbaric is merited given the action, and would not have awarded any style points for it. Come on, I know where Macabee wants to go with this if someone is willing to dance with him, but there is nothing inflammatory here yet. If we can't agree that cutting someone's head off is barbarism, this forum really is hopeless.
From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 10 October 2004 07:40 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, I certainly agree that it is barbaric, horrific, and unwarranted.

My only question to Macabee - who has posted so often on the "modern barbarism" of the Holocaust, and also thanked me for my infos on the equally modern and technological methods employed by the regime in Argentina (and throughout the lands of Operation Condor) in scientific torture and mass disappearance - why it is more barbaric to murder an innocent man with a knife than with a cluster bomb?


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 October 2004 08:31 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lets think of some other adjectives Macabee might have used. 'Sad,' or 'tragic,' would have done. Both speak to Mr. Bigley whose life has been lost. Barabric speaks to the nature of those who killed him, not Bigley. By speaking of them and not Bigley, Macabee is politicizing the death, without regard to Bigley or his family. It cold.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 October 2004 08:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This can be discussed in the thread already started.

Hmm, actually, that thread is already over a hundred posts. So I'll reopen this one.

[ 10 October 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 10 October 2004 10:17 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Liverpool remembers Ken Bigley: . http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/3728526.stm

Liverpool has also been remembering John Lennon, who would have been 64 today. Alas neither made it there ... Ken Bigley was about to retire and do all the "when I'm 64" stuff, just retired but still hale and hearty enough to enjoy his time with his wife, grandkids, and garden...

I do think modern religious fundamentalism has a component of modern barbarism, whether it is perpetrated in the name of Christianity, Judaism, Islam or of non-Abrahamic religions - think of the systemic genocidal pogroms of Muslims in Gujaraat, by Hindu fundamentalists. Tariq Ali and Gilbert Achcar both wrote books with very similar titles about that: something like "the clash of barbarisms, the clash of fundamentalisms" (easy to Google).


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 10 October 2004 10:32 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball with all due respect in regards to your second post on this thread your playing the politicized word game (even if your 'goal' is 'just') that you perceive Macabee to have started. It really doesn't matter what the action is called so long as the connotation is the same. Not everyone is precise with language as you are nor does everyone have that sort of precise grasp of language that you have, people should definitely be more careful, but it doesn't mean they're intentionally (or even sub-consciously) doing something wrong.

[ 10 October 2004: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 10 October 2004 10:53 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is true, Vansterdam. The Muslim Council of Britain called the murder of Ken Bigley "utterly reprehensible and repugnant" and "a cold-blooded killing". Moreover, they recalled that killing hostages or PoWs is forbidden under Islam: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3727690.stm

In this case it is essential to remember that the enemy of our enemy is NOT necessarily our friend. Dubya Bush and Osama Bin Laden are both spoilt, murderous rich boys who don't give a tinker's dam about the people of the world, even of their respective faiths.

But it also essential to stop the damned war!


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 10 October 2004 11:06 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
That is true, Vansterdam. The Muslim Council of Britain called the murder of Ken Bigley "utterly reprehensible and repugnant" and "a cold-blooded killing". Moreover, they recalled that killing hostages or PoWs is forbidden under Islam: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3727690.stm

In this case it is essential to remember that the enemy of our enemy is NOT necessarily our friend. Dubya Bush and Osama Bin Laden are both spoilt, murderous rich boys who don't give a tinker's dam about the people of the world, even of their respective faiths.

But it also essential to stop the damned war!



Well said, Lagatta.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 10 October 2004 11:07 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vansterdam Kid:
Cueball with all due respect in regards to your second post on this thread your playing the politicized word game (even if your 'goal' is 'just') that you perceive Macabee to have started. It really doesn't matter what the action is called so long as the connotation is the same. Not everyone is precise with language as you are nor does everyone have that sort of precise grasp of language that you have, people should definitely be more careful, but it doesn't mean they're intentionally (or even sub-consciously) doing something wrong.

[ 10 October 2004: Message edited by: Vansterdam Kid ]



Tell that to Macabee who takes every opportunity he gets to twist imprecise language (hell even precise language that his demented little mind will twists around) into long derailing arguments.

He just implied on another thread I was an anti-Semite because I suggested he was on an "Israeli apologist holiday" when he failed to condem or at least be an apologist for an equally "barbaric" IOF murder of two little girls.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 10 October 2004 11:46 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lagatta you're absolutley right.

No Yards I understand that, I realize the stupidity of the if your against Israel then your against all Jews argument (although from what I understand 'Semites' are Arabs too aren't they?). But I find over analyzing things, on all sides, to the extent that the wrong conclusion is drawn extremely frustrating.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 10 October 2004 11:54 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since when do barbarians use satellite TV to get their point across?

If anything, they are thoroughly post-modern. The use of electronic images to create a message of fear over the entire globe is snuff porn of a radical new kind. It does not belong in the twelfth century any more than my PC.

[ 10 October 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 10 October 2004 11:55 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
P.S. - strictly speaking, "modern barbarism" is an oxy-moron.
From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 10 October 2004 11:57 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I normally would agree (I think the right has co-oped "politiacl correctness" and have brought it to new hights of "nit pickyness", almost to the point that PC no loner has meaning) but seeing as Macabee deserves no leaway, I am willing to forgive anyone that points out any lack of preciseness in the muck racking that the master mucker tries to pass off as reasonable comment.
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 11 October 2004 12:18 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
He just implied on another thread I was an anti-Semite because I suggested he was on an "Israeli apologist holiday" when he failed to condem or at least be an apologist for an equally "barbaric" IOF murder of two little girls.


This is not only preposterous and a lie, it is continued proof of your paranoia. Please show everyone here where I made such an insinuation. This should be good.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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posted 11 October 2004 12:33 AM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This should indeed be good. Has Macabee found his dance partner? Your official referee is ready to watch this initially noble expression of distress at a random act of violence turn into a random act of flaming.

I'm so excited. The thread's barely started and we're going to have an argument carried over from another thread about implicit accusations (or lack thereof) of anti-Semitism. Doesn't get much better than that. Please do provide some proof, No Yards, I'm itching to get this party going.


From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 11 October 2004 03:18 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes let's get it started in here, let's get it started in here, let's...okay. Well let's get it on folks.

Now if only we had Michael Buffer.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 October 2004 04:20 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Cueball with all due respect in regards to your second post on this thread your playing the politicized word game (even if your 'goal' is 'just') that you perceive Macabee to have started. It really doesn't matter what the action is called so long as the connotation is the same. Not everyone is precise with language as you are nor does everyone have that sort of precise grasp of language that you have, people should definitely be more careful, but it doesn't mean they're intentionally (or even sub-consciously) doing something wrong.

U know, we had a thread about Bigley for a week. I and a few otehr posted on it. To me the thread was a little testament to Bigley. Macabee ignored the issue until Bigley could become a propoganda device.

The its barabaric this and them... etc.

That's the way I feel about it.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 11 October 2004 09:22 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball I understand your frustration. After all slicing off a person's head after toying with his life and publicly humiliating him while keeping his family in a state of mental duress ...well yes, you're right we shouldn't talk about that barbaric or not.....its too propagandistic.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 October 2004 09:31 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, Cueball, a number of other people, and I spoke out over two weeks as anxiously and as caringly as we could while Ken Bigley's life hung in the balance. I don't think you have grounds to reprove him here at all.

I shall save my reading of the term "bar-bar-ism" for a separate post.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 11 October 2004 09:31 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by John_D:
This should indeed be good. Has Macabee found his dance partner? Your official referee is ready to watch this initially noble expression of distress at a random act of violence turn into a random act of flaming.

I'm so excited. The thread's barely started and we're going to have an argument carried over from another thread about implicit accusations (or lack thereof) of anti-Semitism. Doesn't get much better than that. Please do provide some proof, No Yards, I'm itching to get this party going.


Heh.

Let's not.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 October 2004 09:34 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Right.

Anyone who has read how smoke rose from Ethel Rosenberg's head, after having a third charge run through her body, after a humiliating treason trial might question your relativistic moral landscape, and how it is you determine the what is "barbaric."


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
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posted 11 October 2004 09:35 AM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
Why is it more barbaric to cut of a man's head with a knife than it is to murder Israeli kids with a Kassam rocket?
From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 October 2004 09:39 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Its not.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 11 October 2004 10:11 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cluster bombs look like shiny little toys, as did many of the mines that the Soviets planted in Afghanistan. And they don't always kill instantly.

That said, I see nothing wrong with starting a new thread about the murder of Ken Bigley. It raises a lot of issues that are worthy of discussion here. The failure of the negotiations conducted by his family, the input from the Irish government and the Muslim Council of Britain rub salt in the wound.

This war is leading to nothing but brutalisation of all quarters.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 12 October 2004 12:25 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:
P.S. - strictly speaking, "modern barbarism" is an oxy-moron.


According to the Shorter OED, "Barbaric" could mean no more than "what the other guy does," which makes sense given the context of its original use in opening this thread.

barbarian noun 1. A foreigner, a person with different language of customs; spec. a non Hellene, a non-Roman; also a pagan, a non-Christian. Usu depreciative.

2. A savage, wild, or uncivilized person.

barbaric adjective 1. Uncivilized, uncultured, savage, savagely cruel.

One Brit's death is an act of barbarism; tens of thousands of dead Arabs is a statistic.

[ 12 October 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 12 October 2004 12:56 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is another article worth reading by a former hostage during the Lebanon war: Charles Glass. I'm not interested in a thread about barbarism. Wwhat does that have to do with the middle east? The barbarians were goths and celts.

You can find the article over here: America could have saved him


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 12 October 2004 04:36 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For those with a strong stomach, here is Mark Steyn's column on Bigley. It was so offensive that even the Telegraph spiked it

The Quality of Mersey

quote:
None of us can know for certain how we would behave in his circumstances, and very few of us will ever face them. But, if I had to choose in advance the very last words I’d utter in this life, “Tony Blair has not done enough for me” would not be high up on the list. First, because it’s the all but official slogan of modern Britain, the dull rote whine of the churlish citizen invited to opine on waiting lists or public transport, and thus unworthy of the uniquely grisly situation in which Mr Bigley found himself. And, secondly, because those words are so at odds with the spirit of a life spent, for the most part, far from these islands. Ken Bigley seems to have found contemporary Britain a dreary, insufficient place and I doubt he cared about who was Prime Minister from one decade to the next. Had things gone differently and had his fate befallen some other expatriate, and had he chanced upon a month-old London newspaper in his favourite karaoke bar up near the Thai-Cambodian border and read of the entire city of Liverpool going into a week of Dianysian emotional masturbation over some deceased prodigal son with no inclination to return whom none of the massed ranks of weeping Scousers from the Lord Mayor down had ever known, Mr Bigley would surely have thanked his lucky stars that he and his Thai bride were about as far from his native sod as it’s possible to get.

From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 12 October 2004 05:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rude, crude, and entirely political, of course: I don't think that he would have written it if Paul Bigley had not been so effective a critic of Blair's policies. Steyn seems to have forgotten that Nick Berg's father was a similar problem to Bush.

That said, I admire Fabrizio too.

[ 12 October 2004: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 12 October 2004 05:17 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone who believes Steyn would show the "courage" he professes to admire, were he kidnapped and threatened with death, please PM me. Have I got a Florida land-deal for you.

Grimly amusing, too, how he tries to spin this Iraq war as a struggle -- presumably a defensive struggle -- against "jihad."


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged

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