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Author Topic: Syria's Use of Chemical Weapons on Sudanese Villagers
Justice
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posted 29 September 2004 06:43 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sudan Campaign Demands Immediate UN Investigation into Syria's Use of Chemical Weapons on Sudanese Villagers

quote:
Today, German newspaper Die Welt is reporting that Syrian military officials have traveled to Sudan to test chemical weapons on civilians in the Darfur region. The paper reports that frozen bodies of victims recently arrived at a hospital in Khartoum displaying injuries caused by chemical weapons. Sources for the article indicated that the chemical weapons tests followed a joint military exercise between Syria and Sudan.

"For months, the United Nations has stood by watching a genocide unfold in Sudan," said Keith Roderick, director of the Sudan Campaign. "The UN must act immediately. And it can start by launching a thorough investigation of the Syrian military's activities in Sudan."

"The Sudanese government has enslaved and murdered its own black African population for the past two decades," noted Dr. Charles Jacobs, President of the American Anti-Slavery Group. "This is a regime that repeatedly demonstrated its genocidal intentions, and the international community must take reports of chemical weapons use with the utmost concern."


Those Syrians so much more humane then those Israeli's??? Israel's the biggest threat to world peace today???

I won't deny Israel's a problem but man hardly a mention of Syria. And when it is mentioned Israelis worse? This is what the world is coming too???

Fundamentalism vs. Globalization who ever wins we lose. Win will those Marxist socialist stand up against both?

Yes I admit globalization sometimes promotes and encourages fundamentalism but its no cause of it nor if globalization ended would it go away. These 2 evils both need to be dealt with as swiftly and strongly as possible.

Israel is not the problem in either case its just a small hardly significant piece of the problem and "sometimes" it fights both problems very well.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 29 September 2004 06:49 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is no such thing as "fundamentalism AND globalisation".

You don't need to be Hegel to see that they are part of the same process: capital.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 September 2004 06:55 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Give me a break. If Syria did commit such a crime it is hardly justification or a defence of crimes committed by Israel. Look what Germany did fifty years ago! That excuses everything by your logic. What nonsense.

And Israel is part and parcel of globalization and the war in the mid-east. Whatever dreams or hopes gave rise to Israel has long since been dashed against the rock of US geo-politics, and Israeli apartheid.

Please, condemn Syria if this is true, yes, but don't try to use it as an excuse to give Israeli brutality a pass. Keep in mind, Israel has nuclear weapons and has never provided a guarantee against first use.

And why is it okay for Israel to have WMD's? My God what hypocrisy.

[ 29 September 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 29 September 2004 07:07 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Charles Jacobs (quoted in the article) is an interesting character. He is not only founder of CAMERA (a group that purports to expose unfair media framing of the ME conflict) but is also involved with the David Project which is essentially a pro-Zionist propaganda operation on university campuses, and elsewhere. The David Project's usual mode is almost always invidious comparison - i.e. show that things are also bad in, for example, Syria, and suggest that why we hear about Israel is because there is a dark anti-semitism lurking in universities, the press, etc.

Their other main plank is that a "fair and honest" assesment of the ME conflict is to realise that "The Middle East conflict is about ongoing Arab rejection of Jewish political self-determination. But this reality has been obscured." They claim to reveal the stark truth. They also claim that "the foremost obstacle to peaceful coexistence (between Israel and the Arabs) is the culture of hate and intolerance promoted by the dictators and elites who rule Arab countries."

In other words, the Arabs made them do it (the occupation). The Zionists only ever wanted to make friends.

Sound familar?

Anyway, Jacob's work for Sudanese people is laudable, but given all the shit (and I do mean shit) currently being thrown at the fan about Syria, one has to wonder if this accusation against Syria isn't just hand-waving.

[ 29 September 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 29 September 2004 07:07 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is no such thing as "fundamentalism AND globalization".

I believe they are 2 very big and very separate evils.

quote:
And Israel is part and parcel of globalization and the war in the mid-east. Whatever dreams or hopes gave rise to Israel has long since been dashed against the rock of US geo-politics, and Israeli apartheid.
Please, condemn Syria if this is true, yes, but don't try to use it as an excuse to give Israeli brutality a pass. Keep in mind, Israel has nuclear weapons and has never provided a guarantee against first use


Further more I did not justify Israel but it is hypocrisy to say you for human rights and to constantly criticize Israel and hardly mention this. If you truly cared you'd at least fight both with the same zeal.

I wish Israel didn't need to be supported by the states I wish Israel didn't have WMD's for better or worse it does. The question once again is not whether it will use that question is has it used and so far there is nothing that you can compare to this and what is going on in the Sudan.

If you think this isn't "one" of the worest problems today. I really think the situation is hopless.

[ 29 September 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 29 September 2004 07:25 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"I believe they are 2 very big and very separate evils."

How are they seperate? The rise and spread of Wahabbist "Fundamentalist" Islam is directly related the the spread of Saudi Arabian petro-dollars, and the various attempts to control Middle East natural resources both by Western imperialism and local thugs who use the ideology of Islam to placate folks so they can run the show. The roots of modern "fundamentalism" are under the oil sands....


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 29 September 2004 07:41 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then how come fundamentalism didn't rise in most places in Africa or South America don't they suffer from the same sort of oppression and exploitation from globalization as people in the Middle East do?

I don't see people blowing themselves up in Nigeria or Venezuela or attacking innocent civilians.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 29 September 2004 08:07 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
I don't see people blowing themselves up in Nigeria or Venezuela or attacking innocent civilians.

Lots and lots of innocent civilians get attacked in Africa. The available divisions to exploit there, however, are tribal/racial more than religious.
Lots and lots of innocent civilians get attacked in South America too. But they have the same religion as the globalizers, so religion functions differently. It is notable, for instance, that the Catholic hierarchy is united in its denunciation of Hugo Chavez (although the rank and file clergy' allegiances are, I suspect, less clear-cut). Again, much of the violence there is racist, with the targets being predominantly native and mestizo (occasionally Jewish e.g. in Argentina), the bosses white.

For better or worse, distinctions between the foreign oppressor and the local in the Middle East have race intertwined with religion in a way that is different from that in Africa or South America. But just as apparently tribal or religious conflicts in Africa, or race-based conflicts in some parts of Africa and South America, are really largely fuelled and mutated by imperialism in one way or another, so too the way Islam becomes violent in colonized areas is bound up with imperialism.

No, they ain't separate. Not identical, but certainly there are strong connections and relationships.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 September 2004 08:30 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Further more I did not justify Israel but it is hypocrisy to say you for human rights and to constantly criticize Israel and hardly mention this. If you truly cared you'd at least fight both with the same zeal.

If it happened I would condemn just as strongly. Unlike you, constantly making excuses for the abuses of Israel, I have been fairly consistentin condemning all violence.

I also distrust the Syria story because of what the devil had to say and because both sources quoted in your excerpt above, the Sudan Campaign, and American Anti-Slavery Group are one in the same but are not identified as such.

I sense a misinformation campaign afoot.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 29 September 2004 08:40 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One AND the same. (/quibble)

If this is true this is a most reprehensible act. I'm reminded of how the Germans and Soviets used the Spanish Civil War to test out all their fancy-shancy new weaponry, and didn't mind someone else dying for their test results.

Just as cold-blooded and just as calculating.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 29 September 2004 09:13 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Unlike you, constantly making excuses for the abuses of Israel, I have been fairly consistentin condemning all violence.

I.



Ahh you say that about all pro-Israel posters. And I thought it was just me...

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 29 September 2004 09:15 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shoes. Fit. Pithy remark.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 29 September 2004 10:37 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm...I did a Google News search for "syria chemical weapons sudan" and got an article from American Daily and WorldNetDaily. Not exactly reputable sources. I'll wait for confirmation before wading into this thread. Sort of.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 September 2004 10:49 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ahh you say that about all pro-Israel posters. And I thought it was just me...

What do you say about a beer on the Green Line? Eh?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 29 September 2004 11:04 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:
Hmm...I did a Google News search for "syria chemical weapons sudan" and got an article from American Daily and WorldNetDaily. Not exactly reputable sources. I'll wait for confirmation before wading into this thread. Sort of.

Same here and I think the source for both is WorldNutDaily. I also found several stories indicating that both American and German intelligence officials "expressed scepticism".

Since the original story is two weeks old, I suspect we'd have heard more if there was anything to it.

[ 29 September 2004: Message edited by: pogge ]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 30 September 2004 12:23 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

What do you say about a beer on the Green Line? Eh?


Only if you let me buy...


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 September 2004 01:51 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is highly unlikely that Syria would use chemical weapons in Sudan given its very shaky politcal position. I think the report is spurious. Syria was just ordered out of Lebanon by the UN, a position they held for 20+ years, and they immediatly began to comply.

Now some people with strong Zionist sympathies are saying they are gassing people in the Sudan, in rerun of the Iraqi attack against the Kurds. This runs completely counter to the present obsequious line of the young Assad. Assad is very concious of what happened to the leader of his parties sister party in Iraq.

File this under very, very, very unlikely.

Most likely this is the work of some Zionist muckraker trying to link suffering in Sudan to the shadows of the gassing of the Kurds and mixing it with the "...the WMD must have gone to Syria" mantra. Talk about cynically exploiting human rights issues for a political goal: discrediting Syria.

[ 30 September 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 September 2004 08:44 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's clear one thing up. The first place for the incident to be reported was in a so called respected German newspaper most other sources I've seen on the net were quoting it as if they had taken files from Reuters or something. Why would a respected German newspaper have interest in fabricating something like this?

I'm really getting tired of this blood libel and saying its Zionist conspiracy theories. Or people who think Zionist are so pompous they think only of themselves.

What is unlikely is that anyone would attack Syria or Iran now given the fact that American troops are spread so thin between Iraq and Afghanistan. If Israel or the states wanted to attack either one of these countries they would have not made the sale of smart bombes and bunker busters so public.

Anyways Syria is known for testing chemical weapons on its own troops so I don't think this is unlikely as one might think. The least this demands is a very serious investigation as if the situation in the Sudan isn't serious enough that a response is needed???


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 30 September 2004 09:23 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice, Britain and the United States are known for testing chemical weapons on their troops. There's a character over at the dark place who experienced it, and will tell you all about it. Strangely, at least to my way of thinking, he's still an ultra-patriot.

edit: Die Welt article

My German is rusty, so I checked it with Babelfish:

quote:
When the employment in Darfur began, cannot be determined exactly. However report Sudanese eye-witnesses in an article of the Arab Website "Ilaf" of the 2. August of strange procedures in Khartoums aluminum chamfering HR hospital. In June several dozen of frozen corpses was brought abruptly in the hospital. They would have exhibited strange injuries at the whole body. After short time Sudanese soldiers are to have locked a wing off of the building. If one believes the witnesses, the entrance thereafter an unknown Syrian physician team would have been only permitted. After days Sudanese forces would have removed the bodies.

Ahh, Babelfishspeak...

The fact that the story is dated two weeks ago, and no other news service has picked up on it since, I'm guessing they haven't been able to confirm or deny it.

[ 30 September 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 30 September 2004 09:25 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why would a respected German newspaper have interest in fabricating something like this?

Respected by whom? Die Welt persues a political agenda and always has. A respected newspaper, tries to report objectivley on information that has been independantly verified.

The fact that only the moonie organizations, UPI, and its Washington outlet, the Washington Times, speaks volumes about the respect it deserves.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 30 September 2004 09:28 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Justice, Britain and the United States are known for testing chemical weapons on their troops.
Not just. Agent Orange has left thousands of Americans and tens of thousands of Vietnamese suufering terrible illnesses.

And DU has been and will continue to kill Iraqis long after the US runs away. In fact, the only WMD used in Iraq, DU and napalm, were used by the US. Justice, where is your outrage?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 30 September 2004 09:36 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In defence of Die Welt, I asked a German colleague about it. It's a respected German newspaper, in the sense that it's not a lurid tabloid or a Weekly World News clone. Now, of course it'll have an editorial viewpoint, but this is a news article, not an opinion piece, so its journalistic standards should be roughly equal to any other equivalent paper's.

Which is a long-winded way of saying: if you're going to dismiss Die Welt because of it's political slant, you're going to have to dismiss everything from the National Pest to the Grauniad, and then no one will be able to cite newspaper articles to make any point whatsoever.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 30 September 2004 09:37 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First before this goes to far my intent is not demonize Syrians. Assad and his loyalist are demons. The same thing when it comes to Israel Sharon maybe be a demon not all Israeli's and if Sharon is a demon he is a little demon compared to some other fanatics in Israel like those Rabbi's calling for his head. Just wanted to make sure and get that out of the way.

quote:
Respected by whom? Die Welt persues a political agenda and always has. A respected newspaper, tries to report objectivley on information that has been independantly verified.

as I said at least this demands a more serious investigation.

quote:
Justice, Britain and the United States are known for testing chemical weapons on their troops. There's a character over at the dark place who experienced it, and will tell you all about it. Strangely, at least to my way of thinking, he's still an ultra-patriot.

I actually think I heard some documentaries about that. So I won't disagree with on that. I will tell you this in the IDF they do use tear gas in training once every four months and that’s enough a pain in the butt and can be dangerous if done improperly for example if some one who had asthma participated. In Syrian training I know for a fact they use actual mustard gas and they have a quota how many soldiers are allowed to die in training. The joke use to be what happened if the commanding officer of the exercise went over his quota do they kill him too?


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 30 September 2004 09:50 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmmn. A lot of people seem not to have got the memo about Assad, Sharon, and Dubya.

And Wingy and Macabee: you two!


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 30 September 2004 09:53 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I actually think I heard some documentaries about that. So I won't disagree with on that. I will tell you this in the IDF they do use tear gas in training once every four months and that’s enough a pain in the butt and can be dangerous if done improperly for example if some one who had asthma participated.

For that matter, if you want to include tear gas, you can add in Canada. Gas training is still an important piece of knowledge to have on the modern battlefield yaddayadda.

I note you haven't sourced your assertion that Syria regularly gasses its troops.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 30 September 2004 10:03 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In defence of Die Welt, I asked a German colleague about it. It's a respected German newspaper, in the sense that it's not a lurid tabloid or a Weekly World News clone. Now, of course it'll have an editorial viewpoint, but this is a news article, not an opinion piece, so its journalistic standards should be roughly equal to any other equivalent paper's.

Like CanWest? Like Fox News? Die Welt used its newpspers and editorial policy to fight the Cold War and to promote "free market economies" just as did, does, Rupert Murdoch.

Yes, all newspapers have editorial slants. But respected newspapers try to keep thier slant on the editorial pages as best they can. Other newspapers, the National Post, the Washington Times, and Die Welt, are activist newspapers that allow editorial policy to not only slant news but publish absolute falsehoods or unconfirmed stories also.

Where is the independent condfirmation of this story?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 30 September 2004 10:18 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I actually think I heard some documentaries about that. So I won't disagree with on that.
It freakin' fact with a hell of a lot more confirmation than that story you posted above. I do notice a much more understanding and and suddenly skeptical approach from you however, Why is that? Are you only outraged when atrocities are carried out by Arabs?

Here are some links for you:
US admits use of napalm in Iraq

This site is all babies (for those of you so outraged by the crime in Beslan) all reported victms of DU. Have a look:
DU Deformities

[ 30 September 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 30 September 2004 11:24 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Other newspapers, the National Post, the Washington Times, and Die Welt, are activist newspapers that allow editorial policy to not only slant news but publish absolute falsehoods or unconfirmed stories also.

As do the Guardian, Telegraph and LA Times. So I repeat: where does that leave us if every posted newspaper article, from every paper, is going to be shouted down with cries of 'Politics! Spin! Lies!'?


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 30 September 2004 12:58 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When the show fits ...

The Guardian, the Telegraph, the Globe and Mail and teh Torontp Star all have political affiliations but have you ever known them to delibertatley report false news?

Can the same be said for Fox, or the National Post (particularly in light of the report on Georgetti and their editing of wire stories)?

Their is a difference between an error and deliberate false information. There is also a difference between an editorial slant for a newspaper and political activism.

If you don't get that, well, then you never will.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 30 September 2004 03:01 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
[QB]Then how come fundamentalism didn't rise in most places in Africa or South America don't they suffer from the same sort of oppression and exploitation from globalization as people in the Middle East do?

Your logic is flawed here. There are many features to the globalisation of capital, just one being the rise of Islamic "fundamentalism". The social, political, and geographical terrain is not equal the world over - i.e. the effects are different everywhere.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 30 September 2004 03:06 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Re: Die Welt.

"Respected" newspapers get duped all the time. They are in a huge hurry to get the scoop, or to pursue some editorial bias, and so they run with stories that are less than solid. Look at Rather...

All you need is a willing and/or gullible reporter and an editor facing a deadline and the possibility that they might break TODAYS BIG NEWS...


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 September 2004 04:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In Syrian training I know for a fact they use actual mustard gas and they have a quota how many soldiers are allowed to die in training. The joke use to be what happened if the commanding officer of the exercise went over his quota do they kill him too?


How do you no this for a fact.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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