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Author Topic: Herzl's Nightmare -- a book
WingNut
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posted 27 September 2004 02:28 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is an essential and immensely readable plea for understanding and will open the eyes of intransigents on all sides. Allow a final word from Israeli politician Avraham Burg, who wrote last year: "It turns out that a 2000-year struggle for Jewish survival comes down to a state of settlements, run by an amoral clique or corrupt law-breakers who are deaf both to their citizens and their enemies."

Review

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 September 2004 01:55 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
login: Joe_Smith2004

password: pass

quote:
Rodgers is also scathing about subsequent Israeli leaders who have shown, without fail, a disdain and virulent racism towards Palestinians. Take the example of Golda Meir, Israel's third prime minister: "Who are the Palestinians? I am a Palestinian." Even the language of the dispute remains in question, not dissimilarly to the current nonsensical war on terror. "The violence of the other side was 'terrorism'," writes Rodgers, while "one's own was legitimate 'self-defence': both positions often resting on a bedrock of hypocrisy. Both Jews and Palestinians employed terrorism in pursuit of their political goals." This endless list includes PLO leader Yasser Arafat and every Israeli prime minister since 1948. It is the kind of terrorism rarely discussed in the West, because much of it is in fact "our terrorism", as John Pilger has said. How many believe that Western state-sponsored violence, such as Israel's, is in fact terrorism at all?

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 28 September 2004 09:37 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In Herzl's Nightmare, special focus is given to Israel post-1967, a period marked by the occupation of West Bank and Gaza, described in 2002 by Michael Ben-Yair (attorney-general in assassinated prime minister Yitzhak Rabin's government) as "a colonial society. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately after their capture [in the '67 war]. That oppressive regime exists to this day."

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 28 September 2004 10:05 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How many more black South Africans and Jewish Israelis need to call the situation 'apartheid' before the rest of us can legally do so?
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 28 September 2004 11:13 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I dunno. I'm still waiting for a few more women to declare feminism dead and a few more African-Americans to declare affirmative action to be wrong.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 28 September 2004 11:20 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:
How many more black South Africans and Jewish Israelis need to call the situation 'apartheid' before the rest of us can legally do so?

Its not illegal to call it apartheid. Its just a lie.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 28 September 2004 11:37 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I suppose if apartheid is defined as "the segregationist policies of the Afrikkaner government in South Africa" then it's technically a lie, because it's not happening in South Africa or being imposed by Afrikkaners...
From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
kukuchai
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posted 28 September 2004 11:37 AM      Profile for kukuchai        Edit/Delete Post
The word genocide comes to mind.
From: Earth | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 28 September 2004 12:12 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe going a bit far to call it genocide now, but I could see things turning in that direction in the future. And that goes for both sides.
From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 28 September 2004 12:22 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Its not illegal to call it apartheid. Its just a lie.

quote:
For the purpose of the present Convention, the term "the crime of apartheid", which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practised in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:

(a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person

(ii) By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment;
(iii) By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups;

(c) Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognised trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;
(d) Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;
(f) Persecution of organisations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.


Should I start listing examples?


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Macabee
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posted 28 September 2004 01:10 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The PA area is not in Israel. It sadly remains part of a zone where terrorism flourishes. I want the occupation to end as well. I want the Palestinians to have their own state as well. But until Arafat can find a way to become a true statesman. Tragically however while the area remains a hotbed for the infiltration of terrorism the Israelis have to do something to protect their citizens.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 28 September 2004 01:16 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
(c) Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognised trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;

This could become the mother of all Clarica commercials.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 28 September 2004 01:17 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
The PA area is not in Israel.

Israel is the legal authority in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, however these areas have not been officially annexed. As such, Macabee is quite correct to say that the "PA area is not in Israel". Macabee is usually correct.

[ 28 September 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 28 September 2004 01:23 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
But until Arafat can find a way to become a true statesman.

What Macabee is saying is that Arafat has yet to undergo the famous "Israeli Method" by which sometime "terrorists" are - by a special magic ceremony called a "swearing in" - turned into "statesmen". It's a fascinating process which has been the saving-grace of countless now-reformed Israeli terrorists from Isaak Shamir, to Menachem Begin, to Ariel Sharon, and so on.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 28 September 2004 02:01 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel is the legal authority in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, however these areas have not been officially annexed. As such, Macabee is quite correct to say that the "PA area is not in Israel". Macabee is usually correct.

And you are usually correct as well. But this returns us once again to the very nature of Apartheid, which, as a former South African turned West Bank settler put forth, means "apartness."

And so we find that Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza have rights as citizens of a nation which claims it has no jurisdiction of the place where they live. Meanwhile, those poor other folks, whose only crime is being in the West Bank while not being Jewish, have no such rights or protections even while leiving right next door.

quote:
Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;

That would include roads and communities. Macabee, and by extension Israel, is trying to have their cake and eat it too. They say Jewish settlers are Israeli and Israel has jurisdiction over those setlemnets even though they are not in Israel. But Palestinians, not being Jewish, are not in Israel but in the "territories."

They then set about developing separate communities with different levels of service and access to resources and with separate roads, laws for settlers and lawlessness for natives.

That is apartheid. Macabee can dance all he likes. It is apartheid and a crime against humanity.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 28 September 2004 02:04 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you for that clarification, Wingnut.

[ 28 September 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 28 September 2004 02:33 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What a nice mutual admiration society!
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 28 September 2004 02:39 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And while advocating, cynically, a two-state solution, it is worthwhile examining the strategy behind the settlements:

quote:
A third goal, geopolitical in character, was far more successful. This goal, as Dor explains, "was not made public, but there can be no doubt about its centrality in regard to the location of the mitzpim communities. The goal here was to drive wedges between the blocs of Arab settlements, in order to block their ability to create a territorial continuity that would make possible trends toward demands for autonomy in the future." Indeed, Dor writes, "The establishment of the mitzpim communities in conditions of relatively small areas made possible a maximum distribution of settlement sites and the `conquest' of the territory by means of access roads to them and by means of the permanent Jewish presence in the area."

quote:
The pamphlet shows that the discrimination and inequality are not a systemic failure but a deliberate intention. There is nothing new in all this, of course, but when such banality is offered up as a dry, businesslike, ostensibly nonideological report, it is more difficult than ever to swallow. The chair of geostrategy, as the pamphlet points out, "deals with subjects in the sphere of national security which have a territorial expression." The pamphlet is being distributed in high schools and academic institutions, thus inculcating in future generations unacceptable norms that raise serious questions about the sheer possibility of maintaining a "democratic Jewish state."

Unacceptable Norms


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 28 September 2004 02:42 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What a nice mutual admiration society!

Unable to attack the facts? Why not make an unsupportable assertion? Order the new book, Derailing Debate: The Mishtification of the Web today to learn how.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 September 2004 03:04 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, Macabee. Since you appear to be so strongly committed to fair and strong democracies worldwide, given your aspersions on the PA, et cetera, how come I haven't seen you say one flippin' word about the constant right-wing attack on Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, a man lawfully and legally elected to office twice, whose political party's deputies have been elected to numerous levels of office in honest elections, and yet who is constantly under attack by that country's economic elite?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm? So much for YOUR commitment to seeing fair democracy everywhere.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 28 September 2004 06:47 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, are you seriously positing that the settlements are a necessary response to acts of terror? Whatever the beginnings of the occupation, it is now largely a colonial exercise.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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Babbler # 3807

posted 28 September 2004 07:41 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The PA area is not in Israel. It sadly remains part of a zone where terrorism flourishes.

Ask yourself why?

Why?

Why?

Why?

Why?...

Oh right. It's Mishei. What's the use of asking?


Never mind.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

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