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Author Topic: Letting go for the sake of life
WingNut
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posted 25 September 2004 11:23 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
According to the moustahil approach, one must never show humanity, because humanity is a sign of weakness. Certain Jews and Palestinians have stopped being humane, even toward children. The heart aches at the sight of settlers dancing, carrying their children on their shoulders, as the Palestinians look on with blazing eyes. Never have I heard of such an idolatrous dance in all of Jewish history. It is horrifying to see Palestinian day camps where little tots sport suicide bomber masks. Is it any wonder that such a high percentage of children on both sides suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder - even higher than the incidence among soldiers sent into fierce combat?

From Haaretz

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 25 September 2004 11:33 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is a gorgeous, even-handed, heart-breaking piece.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 25 September 2004 11:42 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

From Haaretz
According to the moustahil approach, one must never show humanity, because humanity is a sign of weakness. Certain Jews and Palestinians have stopped being humane, even toward children. The heart aches at the sight of settlers dancing, carrying their children on their shoulders, as the Palestinians look on with blazing eyes. Never have I heard of such an idolatrous dance in all of Jewish history. It is horrifying to see Palestinian day camps where little tots sport suicide bomber masks. Is it any wonder that such a high percentage of children on both sides suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder - even higher than the incidence among soldiers sent into fierce combat? Originally posted by Macabee:

I wonder why you chose not to hi-lite this paragraph but chose instead the one paragraph that is most negative about Jews?

quote:
Arab culture is unforgiving. Blood revenge is a respected commandment. Time must not be allowed to erase memory, leading to forgiveness and surrender. A Bedouin who avenges the death of his father after 40 years is asked: "What's the rush?" For the Arabs, the loss of Andalusia might as well have been yesterday. Some Arab intellectuals denounce the Palestinians who negotiate with Israel in the hope of achieving peace between the two peoples, accusing them of the most galling crime: They may yet resign themselves to the defeat of Andalusia.

The piece is well written and passionte. While I may not agree with all of his sentiments, I feel his words. Perhaps it would have been better to just let the article speak for itself instead of showing your own personal bias. Just a thought.

[ 25 September 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 25 September 2004 11:43 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry double post

[ 25 September 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 25 September 2004 11:45 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I wonder why you chose not to hi-lite this paragraph but chose instead the one paragraph that is most negative about Jews?

Because it spoke plainly about both Arabs and Jews. Your own bigotry is showing through and has been for quite some time.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 25 September 2004 11:49 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The misportrayal of all non-"Western" peoples as "savage", with "tribal conflicts" can be answered with one simple question, which isn't actually mine, but attributed to Stephen Biko:

If "other non-Western peoples" have had tribal conflicts, then what do you call World War I and World War II?

The punch line, unstated, is that the white man's tribal conflicts are dignified with grander names. But just because we call our wars "World" wars, and we all our failed wars "Wars of Liberation" doesn't change the fact that we can act just as shortsightedly and just as stupidly as those we seek to denigrate.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 26 September 2004 12:15 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee:

Huh? The quote addresses both sides, and the effect of this conflict on both sides children. What on Earth are you doing, here? Jesus, are you so fixated that even the most even-handed assessment looks like bias to you? That's just sad.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 September 2004 12:34 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Because it spoke plainly about both Arabs and Jews. Your own bigotry is showing through and has been for quite some time.

You are so terribly blind to your biases. Shame really.

[ 26 September 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 September 2004 12:38 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The heart aches at the sight of settlers dancing, carrying their children on their shoulders, as the Palestinians look on with blazing eyes. Never have I heard of such an idolatrous dance in all of Jewish history. It is horrifying to see Palestinian day camps where little tots sport suicide bomber masks.
Surely there is a huge differenc between settlers dancing and Palestinian children whereing mock suicide belts!!!!???? If there is not in your world ..then your world must be an awfully strange and dark place.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 26 September 2004 12:45 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Indulge me, Macabee. To me, the author is making a comparison between settlers dancing in front of Palestinians while taking their land, or preventing them from harvesting their crops (this happens Macabee, normally with the protection of soldiers; it is intended to mock the powerlessness of the Palestinians) and the indoctrination of Palestinian children into suicide-bombing. Do you see the comparison? Both sides are teaching their children, early, to de-humanize the other.

That was what I took from the recounting. What did you take from it?


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 26 September 2004 12:48 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oops.

[ 26 September 2004: Message edited by: Coyote ]


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 26 September 2004 01:06 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You are so terribly blind to your biases. Shame really.
Perhaps I am and perhaps it is a shame. The real shame of it all, however, is the depth of your bigotry. It is you this article addresses. But bigotry, at its center, is cowardice. You will never have the courage to recognize in this article. And that is a terrible shame.

[ 26 September 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 26 September 2004 06:56 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder why you chose not to hi-lite this paragraph but chose instead the one paragraph that is most negative about Arabs?

quote:
The wrongs done to the Jews are deeply etched in Jewish culture: To this day, we hate the ancient Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Spanish Inquisitors and the perpetrators of the massacre in Hebron at the beginning of last century. A heart that bears grudges and a heart that remembers are hearts that end up brimming with resentment.

From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 September 2004 09:48 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Indulge me, Macabee. To me, the author is making a comparison between settlers dancing in front of Palestinians while taking their land, or preventing them from harvesting their crops (this happens Macabee, normally with the protection of soldiers; it is intended to mock the powerlessness of the Palestinians) and the indoctrination of Palestinian children into suicide-bombing. Do you see the comparison? Both sides are teaching their children, early, to de-humanize the other.

That was what I took from the recounting. What did you take from it?


QUOTE]Originally posted by Coyote:
?[/QUOTE]
Frankly I dont know what the context of the "dancing" may have been. The article gives absolutely no context to the sentence. Perhaps it was a bar mitzvah celebration, perhaps it was simply an evening of dance. I see nothing in the article to suggest anything. Certainly not what you suggest.

That said I am more than sympathetic with the feelings of loss that Palestinians suffer through in trying to deal with the occupation. However morally I have a problem comparing settlers dancing with children being forced to wear mock suicide belts.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 26 September 2004 10:07 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't understand this.

WingNut quoted a paragraph that described lamentable behaviour on both sides. Macabee quoted a paragraph that was about Arabs only.

And on that basis, Mac called Wingy biased.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 September 2004 11:11 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not hard to understand Skdadl if you see the juxtoposition of the two concepts; settlers dancing to Palestinian children wearing suicide belts. Yes they are both morally equal in some eyes arent they?

[ 26 September 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 26 September 2004 11:17 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uh, Mac? The author of the article said this:

quote:
Never have I heard of such an idolatrous dance in all of Jewish history.

I took it that he was describing settlers exposing their children to danger while taunting oppressed people who are hostile to being oppressed. And I took him at his word.

Having read the New Yorker article on the settlers that you and I discussed earlier this year -- well, we didn't really discuss it, did we? but I gave you the reference -- I thought that this author's description had a certain verisimilitude.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 26 September 2004 11:23 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Besides, Macabee, as usual, is not entorely honest. His objection is the mere mention that some Jews, settlers, were cast in a negative light. Or why would he have said:
quote:
I wonder why you chose not to hi-lite this paragraph but chose instead the one paragraph that is most negative about Jews?

So, clearly, he, himself, thought the dancing negative. But now, as usual agian, it is him who is dancing.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 September 2004 11:25 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Uh, Mac? The author of the article said this:

I took it that he was describing settlers exposing their children to danger while taunting oppressed people who are hostile to being oppressed. And I took him at his word.

Having read the New Yorker article on the settlers that you and I discussed earlier this year -- well, we didn't really discuss it, did we? but I gave you the reference -- I thought that this author's description had a certain verisimilitude.



Look Skddadl I am no supporter of those settlers who for their own misplaced sense of Judaism remain ensconced on Palestinian lands in places like Gaza. However, I have no idea how you extrapolated what you did from that one sentence. It's clear that is YOUR interpretation but sincerely, it comes from your mind nowhere else. The author makes no such illusions. That you and Wingnut would make such an interpretation does, IMHO, speak to an inherant bias ,no?

All this said the author clearly detests the settlers. It is possible that in his mind the very presence of the settlers and their dancing he equates with these Palestinian children and their adult counsellors forcing them to wear that hideous thing. I belive that this is wrong headed and an immoral equivalence as well.

[ 26 September 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 September 2004 11:27 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Besides, Macabee, as usual, is not entorely honest. His objection is the mere mention that some Jews, settlers, were cast in a negative light. Or why would he have said:

So, clearly, he, himself, thought the dancing negative. But now, as usual agian, it is him who is dancing.


No Wingnut I was wondering how and why you would choose a paragraph that clearly gives moral equivalance to Jewish settlers dancing and Palestinian children being forced to wear suicide belts at a day camp.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 26 September 2004 11:27 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, Mac.

1. The author does make such allusions (note sp).

2. And you yourself at first drew such conclusions: see Wingy's last reply above.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 26 September 2004 11:29 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No Wingnut I was wondering how and why you would choose a paragraph that clearly gives moral equivalance to Jewish settlers dancing and Palestinian children being forced to wear suicide belts at a day camp.

Liar, liar pants on fire.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 September 2004 11:31 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Liar, liar pants on fire.

Silly me and here I thought it was against babble policy to call another Babbler a "liar". I say this not as a defence but to question your own sense of morality once again, I am not lying.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 26 September 2004 11:31 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
That is a gorgeous, even-handed, heart-breaking piece.

Isn't it a shame that this was post #2 ... And the discussion ended there?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 26 September 2004 12:00 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, some would say that the subsequent development of this thread itself shows signs of "moustahil".
From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 26 September 2004 01:10 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
the settlers. It is possible that in his mind the very presence of the settlers and their dancing he equates with these Palestinian children and their adult counsellors forcing them to wear that hideous thing. I belive that this is wrong headed and an immoral equivalence as well.

This is an interesting example of the dangers inherent in assuming that because one holds the "right" two-thousand-year-old piece of literature that happens to have "Holy" imprimatur, one is entitled to snidely claim that people who do not also hold the "right" two-thousand-year-old book are not entitled to feel outrage at actions committed by one's fellows who also hold the same two-thousand-year-old book.

Religiously motivated worldviews that unconsciously assume the superiority of one's ethno-religious comrades' points of view, even when one disagrees with expressed viewpoints made by those comrades, are dangerous to the fundamental appreciation of human beings as being one race with very little to distinguish one of us from another.

Your DNA is not so different from that of a Palestinian's that you could not, with a Palestinian woman, bear a child.

A Palestinian's DNA is not so different from your daughter's (assuming you have a daughter) that she could not bear a child if he impregnated her.

Outrage at open gloating over one's own unfortunate position is universal, Macabee. If I trip you and then kick you when you're down, your outrage at that act is of the same nature as the Palestinians expressing outrage at Israeli settlers amusing themselves while, in essence, kicking the Palestinians when they're down.

Atheists don't have a two-thousand-year-old book to lend them instant credibility, so I don't expect you to just immediately take to a new appreciation of humanity as one race with fundamentally the same genome, because to prove this requires some basic appreciation of science, as I do and you do not.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 26 September 2004 01:22 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Look Skddadl I am no supporter of those settlers who for their own misplaced sense of Judaism remain ensconced on Palestinian lands in places like Gaza.

The tune's the same, but the key's different.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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Babbler # 4014

posted 26 September 2004 01:32 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Silly me and here I thought it was against babble policy to call another Babbler a "liar".

I sincerely hope this is the last time you post this, because you've done it before, and I'm getting tired of it. If you sincerely have reason to believe someone is lying, then it's entirely reasonnable to call that person a liar. What would be against Babble policy would be to fling that accusation willy-nilly, as it is anathema to civilised discourse, but I expect the moderators to make that call, not someone as obviously disingenous as yourself.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 26 September 2004 01:36 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

A Palestinian's DNA is not so different from your daughter's (assuming you have a daughter) that she could not bear a child if he impregnated her.



From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 September 2004 04:47 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

I sincerely hope this is the last time you post this, because you've done it before, and I'm getting tired of it. If you sincerely have reason to believe someone is lying, then it's entirely reasonnable to call that person a liar. What would be against Babble policy would be to fling that accusation willy-nilly, as it is anathema to civilised discourse, but I expect the moderators to make that call, not someone as obviously disingenous as yourself.


Firstly you are quite correct that is why it is against Babble policy. Secondly, please spare me your righteous indignation. I will continue to post as I please in respect of the babble policy. I will not be lulled or threatened by you to cease posts I feel are necessary. So if you are getting "tired" I would advise you to get some rest.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 26 September 2004 04:52 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Gee, I hope you're not lying.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 September 2004 04:53 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Gee, I hope you're not lying.
Why?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 26 September 2004 05:30 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee: Do you commit yourself to the existence of stable and fair democracies worldwide?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 September 2004 07:05 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Macabee: Do you commit yourself to the existence of stable and fair democracies worldwide?
Do you?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 26 September 2004 07:41 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah yes. The non-answer.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 September 2004 08:30 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Ah yes. The non-answer.
From you.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 26 September 2004 09:12 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, no, no. See, I asked the question first. You have to answer it.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 September 2004 09:38 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
No, no, no. See, I asked the question first. You have to answer it.
I did.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 26 September 2004 09:40 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Er... gentlemen?

It's time for one of you to say "I'm rubber, you're glue, it bounces off me and sticks to you." Doesn't matter which one.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 26 September 2004 10:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I think it's time to close the thread.

Loved the article in the first post, though. Too bad this thread outlived its usefulness so soon.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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