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Author Topic: Israeli General Strike!
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 21 September 2004 12:20 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
General Strike Paralyses Israel

quote:
Israel's unions staged a nationwide general strike on Tuesday, grounding all international air traffic, paralyzing financial markets and public services and even preventing burial of the dead.

The strike by 400,000 public-sector employees over a pay dispute was the latest in a battle between a right-wing government determined to push forward with free-market reforms and unions trying to prevent job losses due to spending cuts.

The open-ended strike, called by Israel's Histadrut labor federation, hit the country's international airport, seaports, government offices, banks, financial markets, hospitals, fire departments, postal services, trains, courts and cemeteries.


Woot. Give 'em hell, Histadrut!


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 21 September 2004 12:43 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I can only add:
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 21 September 2004 12:53 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thankfully in Israel the Labour movement remains a vital organization. Again the only such movement permitted in all of the Middle East.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 September 2004 12:56 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In the Middle East? Hell, in the world.

Can you imagine what the Bushies would be doing right now if something like this were even to be whispered about south of the border?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 21 September 2004 01:01 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Again the only such movement permitted in all of the Middle East.

That's twice now today I've seen you make the "Israel is not as bad as the rest of the ME" argument. It is not clever, and has little explanatory value. I really wish you'd try and contribute substantively to this forum, rather than continue some propaganda crusade that I'm sure interests very few.

[ 21 September 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 21 September 2004 01:01 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Can you imagine what the Bushies would be doing right now if something like this were even to be whispered about south of the border?

Since much of the National Guard is in Iraq, this might be the best time to do it.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 21 September 2004 01:04 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I noticed that too, Hinterland. I had posted, by my post has apparently disappeared into the aether.

Mac won't miss a chance to Arab/Muslim bash.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 21 September 2004 01:04 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
That's twice now today I've seen you make the "Israel is not as bad as the rest of the ME" argument. It is not clever, and has little explanatory value. I really wish you'd try and contribute substantively to this forum, rather than continue some propaganda crusade that I'm sure interests very few.

Ayy-friggin'-MEN!!


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 21 September 2004 01:07 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Alright, let's not pile on Macabee or this whole thread will go tits-up.

In any case, I love being able to show solidarity with lefty and socially-minded Israelis who make up a substantial proportion of its population. Kick Likud's ass!


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 21 September 2004 01:32 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
...I love being able to show solidarity with lefty and socially-minded Israelis who make up a substantial proportion of its population. Kick Likud's ass!

Okay... so let's show some solidarity and support.

Contact:

Website: http://www.laborisrael.org/

Email: ncli.info@laborisrael.org

Or, if you understand Hebrew: http://www.histadrut.org/


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 21 September 2004 01:34 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Thankfully in Israel the Labour movement remains a vital organization. Again the only such movement permitted in all of the Middle East.

Turkish public sector workers strike

Lebanon grinds to halt in general strike

So, anyways....


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 21 September 2004 01:48 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is an interesting, and short break down of Labour relations and union activity by region:

Violations of Trade Union Rights

Israel get high marks in comparison to most of its neighbors:

quote:
Israel and the West Bank and Gaza are perhaps a case apart. Israel respects basic trade union rights, although the situation is certainly not perfect. New proposals may give the Ministry of Finance more powers to interfere in pay bargaining.

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 21 September 2004 05:47 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

That's twice now today I've seen you make the "Israel is not as bad as the rest of the ME" argument. It is not clever, and has little explanatory value. I really wish you'd try and contribute substantively to this forum, rather than continue some propaganda crusade that I'm sure interests very few.

[ 21 September 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]



Well that's not quite true. Skdadl for example went one step further in quite correctly pointing out that Israel's labour movement is unique even by western standards.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 21 September 2004 05:48 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:
I noticed that too, Hinterland. I had posted, by my post has apparently disappeared into the aether.

Mac won't miss a chance to Arab/Muslim bash.


Actually I was bashing repressive dictatorial rgimes. It is you who mentioned Arabs and Muslims not me.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 21 September 2004 05:51 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Turkish public sector workers strike

Lebanon grinds to halt in general strike

So, anyways....


Wow that's great..very progressive in lebanon. I love being corrected over such good news.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 21 September 2004 05:52 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Thankfully in Israel the Labour movement remains a vital organization. Again the only such movement permitted in all of the Middle East.

That is true. In fact, Paul Bremmer scrapped all of Saddam's economic laws except his draconian laws on labour organizing and strikes. Seems there was something to like about Saddam after all. I mean besides killing Iranians, Kurds, Shiites and all those other victims that once made him a jewel in the eye of Rumsfeld, et al ...

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 21 September 2004 05:57 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Skdadl for example went one step further in quite correctly pointing out that Israel's labour movement is unique even by western standards.

I wasn't sure that's what Skdadl meant, but I'm no expert in the singular sophistication of the Israeli labour movement, so what do I know? Tell you what, Macabee. If you want to avoid confusion and would like to touch on the positive aspects of Israel that you think are worth mentionning here, in the spirit of constructive discussion and progressiveness, how about you actually describe these aspects, rather than compare them to the unfortunate situations that exist elsewhere. I think that would be more helpful.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 21 September 2004 06:41 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Turkish public sector workers strike

Lebanon grinds to halt in general strike

So, anyways....


Really!? Lebanon was once described to me as an uber capitalist state, where the social services Suck. I thought the labor movement would be in very poor health. I guess I was wrong.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 21 September 2004 06:46 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Skdadl for example went one step further in quite correctly pointing out that Israel's labour movement is unique even by western standards.


Well, no. That is not what skdadl thinks.

skdadl has ultra-utmost respect for everybody's labour movement. "I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night," and that sort of thing, wherever it raises its brave head. Yay, workers of the world. Let's unite, etc.

What makes a difference, obviously, is both the percentage of a population that are organized, and the kinds of reaction they can expect from people in power when they do something as daring as a general strike.

Now, since Israeli culture is in many ways intensely European, labour consciousness may well be higher there than it would be in North America, certainly in the U.S., and I don't know the the percentage of workers who are organized in Israel, although I have no doubt it is much higher than in the U.S., where that population is now on a precipitous slide.

So I will be interested to watch the response that Israeli workers get from figures like Netanyahu and Sharon. The comparison to Bush and, say, Ashcroft should be instructive, although it would have to be imaginary, because I can't imagine USian workers rising up at a moment such as this. I'm pretty sure of what would happen if they did. I doubt that Netanyahu and Sharon are quite that stupid, although they have certainly shown themselves to be equally brutal, if in a much more honest, straightforward, blood-on-the-hands kind of way.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 22 September 2004 06:55 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actually I was bashing repressive dictatorial rgimes. It is you who mentioned Arabs and Muslims not me.

quote:
Thankfully in Israel the Labour movement remains a vital organization. Again the only such movement permitted in all of the Middle East.

Oh, sorry, you didn't *specifically* mention Muslims, you just mentioned a region that's 90% Muslim.

Feh.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 08:10 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:

Oh, sorry, you didn't *specifically* mention Muslims, you just mentioned a region that's 90% Muslim.

Feh.


Why would you point out religion when I was talking about political dictatorial regimes? Dictatorships come in all ethnicities, faiths and lack thereof. Was Stalin a Muslim? Was Papa Doc Duvalier or others? Come on if I were you I wouldn't go there.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 22 September 2004 08:18 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stalin and Papa Doc were in the Middle East?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 22 September 2004 09:28 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Didn't Pol Pot visit Tel Aviv? No, wait, that was someone else..

Your words were clear: Israel as compared to the Middle East = Jewish democracy compared to Muslim dictatorship. The fact that you are now trying to distance yourself from these remarks is sad, and telling.

[ 22 September 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 22 September 2004 09:30 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One thing we haven't discussed yet, which is obviously mostly what makes this labour action unique among Western countries, is the fact that huge numbers of workers have not been paid -- for months!

Where else in the Western world is that true? No wonder these people have walked out. Wouldn't that happen pretty quickly here too?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 11:37 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:
Didn't Pol Pot visit Tel Aviv? No, wait, that was someone else..

Your words were clear: Israel as compared to the Middle East = Jewish democracy compared to Muslim dictatorship. The fact that you are now trying to distance yourself from these remarks is sad, and telling.

[ 22 September 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


No those are your words not mine. And the truth is clear Israel is a democracy, Egypt, Syria, Iran et al are not. Do you quibble with that?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 11:40 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Stalin and Papa Doc were in the Middle East?

All Im trying to say is that my focus is NOT on religion. Others put that into play not me. You all know it but prefer me to be the fall-guy for your own purposes.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 22 September 2004 11:42 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One thing we haven't discussed yet, which is obviously mostly what makes this labour action unique among Western countries, is the fact that huge numbers of workers have not been paid -- for months!
Where else in the Western world is that true? No wonder these people have walked out. Wouldn't that happen pretty quickly here too?

In a healthy economy, those people would possibly have quit the public service and found work elsewhere, after the first couple of weeks without pay. That may not be an option in Israel, with the way that Likud's policies have screwed up the economy. I'm just guessing, but maybe the public workers have no choice but to hang on to non-paying jobs. I'm surprised that it would take three months without pay before the strike. How in heck did they feed their families?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 September 2004 11:46 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And the truth is clear Israel is a democracy, Egypt, Syria, Iran et al are not. Do you quibble with that?

Yeah, actually. Israel denies citizenship and full rights to 3.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. I wouldn;t call that democracy. Would the Syrians?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 12:12 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Yeah, actually. Israel denies citizenship and full rights to 3.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. I wouldn;t call that democracy. Would the Syrians?


That's because they are not Israelis. Once the occupation ends (I pray sooner than later) and a Palestinian state is established they will rightly become citizens of the new state of Palestine.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 22 September 2004 12:18 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Re: Three months without pay

I'm not sure what the savings rate in Israel is, but if Israelis have a tendency to utilize savings accounts and long-term investments, then there is a good possibility that many government workers have been living off their savings and credit cards for the last three or so months and only now are feeling the pinch.

I don't think any government in an industrial nation has ever let its workers go without pay unless there's a strike action or lockout.

Re: Israel's Economy and the Public Service

Israel's economy tends to be very sensitive to the level of military spending, from what I understand; any increase tends to rapidly reach a point where any further increase simply hurts national production because resources are diverted from consumer and capital goods into guns, bombs, planes, and tanks.

Sharon's government has been heavily diverting resources in this fashion, both in continued military spending and this farce of a "security" wall.

It is thus not surprising that the public sector in Israel is now the employer of last and continuing resort; statistics posted elsewhere on babble have shown an alarming deterioration of Israel's income distribution, its poverty rate, and other important quality-of-life stats. This deterioration can be traced directly to the Israeli refusal to withdraw from the Occupied Territories and the simultaneous grudging acceptance of the burden that implies.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 22 September 2004 12:29 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
With the Argentine economic implosion three years ago, many people were not paid for months, including university and health care professionals and staff. Those who were paid found their paycheques utterly worthless. Well, people suffered a lot. A lot of people muddled along by developing a barter system.

Such practices were long in effect in the last years of the Soviet bloc, and continued in the economic disaster for many following the collapse of the Soviet Union. So it depends on how you define "Western" - do you mean only "advanced capitalist societies" or countries wih a European cultural background?

Macabee, you should read up on Lebanon. Although its democracy is not perfect either, in many respects it does function. It is a society where a kind of untrammelled postwar capitalism does co-exist with forms of solidarity and an old leftist movement that still has echoes today. I have friends from Lebanon who were in the former CP (that became something else, forget what) - they have moved back there and are pleased to be home - and they aren't in jail, so it isn't Syria, despite Syrian influence.

With my background in labour history, I really liked this snippet from the laborisrael site. I interviewed a lot of old Italian guys and other Québec trade unionists in the same way, but it is really interesting that the older generation is being empowered to use the computer technology themselves in this way:

"Through the generosity of hundreds of friends, NCLI has built a computer center at Histadrut's Mishan Senior Center at Neve Efal.  Here, young men and women skilled in the latest computer technology will help senior citizens who can recall Israel's beginnings be in contact with friends and family, and record their irreplaceable memories."


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 September 2004 12:33 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That's because they are not Israelis. Once the occupation ends (I pray sooner than later) and a Palestinian state is established they will rightly become citizens of the new state of Palestine.

Oh, I see. But the Jewish settlers, also living in the West Bank and Gaza, they are Israelis and subject to all the rights and benefits of citizenship?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 12:41 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes they are citizens quite clearly but the present situation, I agree is neither fair nor teneable. Thus a two-state solution would be IMHO the only answer.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 September 2004 12:44 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So how can a state that grants citizenship rights to one class of citizen while denying citizenship to another class, all on the basis of ethnicity, be a democracy?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 22 September 2004 12:50 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No those are your words not mine. And the truth is clear Israel is a democracy, Egypt, Syria, Iran et al are not. Do you quibble with that?

The truth is you never pass up an opportunity to tar "the entire Middle East (aside from Israel)", while remaining blissfully ignorant, as your later posts demonstrate, of labour union activities in Lebanon and Turkey. If no one else had called you on that, you'd still be wittering along about how bad every other country in the region is in relation to noble and perfect Israel.

Keep your eyes tightly shut, otherwise some light of reality might interfere with the tempo of your droning chant.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 01:04 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
So how can a state that grants citizenship rights to one class of citizen while denying citizenship to another class, all on the basis of ethnicity, be a democracy?
Its based on what was an occupation of land following a war. There are many Palestinians in Israel with Israeli citizenship.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 01:05 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:

The truth is you never pass up an opportunity to tar "the entire Middle East (aside from Israel)", while remaining blissfully ignorant, as your later posts demonstrate, of labour union activities in Lebanon and Turkey. If no one else had called you on that, you'd still be wittering along about how bad every other country in the region is in relation to noble and perfect Israel.

Keep your eyes tightly shut, otherwise some light of reality might interfere with the tempo of your droning chant.


I'll take that as an acknowledgement that you were the one who brought up the issue of religion not me.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 September 2004 01:12 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Its based on what was an occupation of land following a war. There are many Palestinians in Israel with Israeli citizenship.

Ah, that explains it. So a democratic state can occupy another territory granting rights to one ethnic group that colonizes there while denying the same rights to the indigenous population? Is that Israeli democracy?

And of those Palestinians in Israel with Israeli citizenship, do they enjoy the same marriage, property and other rights as Jewish Israelis? Do they have the same rights of movement and travel? Do they attend the same schools? Do they live on the same streets?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 22 September 2004 03:49 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

That's because they are not Israelis. Once the occupation ends (I pray sooner than later) and a Palestinian state is established they will rightly become citizens of the new state of Palestine.

Macabee is, as usual, quite correct. The 3.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank who are not Israeli citizens are not Israelis: i.e. Israeli citizens.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 22 September 2004 03:53 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 22 September 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 September 2004 03:56 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes. I think that Israeli citizenship, and the inherent rights and protections therein, is granted on the basis of ethnicity has been established. The issue is can Israel be a democracy when citizenship is withheld due one's not belonging to a specific ethnic group?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 04:03 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Yes. I think that Israeli citizenship, and the inherent rights and protections therein, is granted on the basis of ethnicity has been established. The issue is can Israel be a democracy when citizenship is withheld due one's not belonging to a specific ethnic group?

Established only by you. Palestinians in Israel are free and equal citizens of the state.

Now is there discrimination in Israel. Of course the same as in any other democratic state. Do poor African-Americans go to the same schools as well off white Americans? Are Cuban Americans or British and French Muslims treated the same as others in their country? You know full well the answers to these questions Your singular myopic view of Israel continues to continue.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 September 2004 04:16 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Suddenly you seem all red in the face. I am simply posing questions. Are their marriage restrictions on poor, black Americans? Can they legally be denied property? Can they legally be denied freedom of movement? Can they legally be denied access to publically funded schools in richer, white areas?

I am not denying that all societies face discrimination. What I am examining is state sanctioned discrimination in light of your claim that Israel is a democracy.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 22 September 2004 04:17 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
[QB]
Established only by you. Palestinians in Israel are free and equal citizens of the state.

Actually, Macabee, if you would allow me to correct you, those "Palestinians" are "Israelis". The State of Israel does not apply the appelation "Palestinian" to any of it's citizens.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 September 2004 04:20 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Further, the issue raised by the devil, himself, was with regard to the West Bank and Gaza where you, yourself, readily admit settlers have full Israeli citizenship but Palestinians, er ... Arabs, do not.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 22 September 2004 05:17 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And of those Palestinians in Israel with Israeli citizenship, do they enjoy the same marriage, property and other rights as Jewish Israelis? Do they have the same rights of movement and travel? Do they attend the same schools? Do they live on the same streets?

Add: Are they in the same unions? Well in 1989, Histadrut had 1.6 million members, of which 100,000 were Arab, just over 6%. My understanidng is that 20% citizens of Israel are Arabs-Israeli. Why the differential?

Histadrut


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 22 September 2004 05:30 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, Cueball, for getting this thread back on topic. Not that I think the points any of you raised are unimportant, but I really would be interested in learning more about this general strike, its implications, and indeed to what degree Arab-Israelis (aka Palestinians with Israeli citizenship) are involved. And how about some of the new immigrant groups?

I'd also be interested to know if there is any attempt to link up to the many protests by poor, unemployed Israelis (Jews, Arabs and others) - especially the recent protests by mothers raising children alone.

I think the question of to what extent a country that enacts discrimination against a group of people on its territory can be seen as "democratic" to a limited extent is an important one - and should not be limited to Israel alone - but it should be a separate topic.

It is clear that militarisation of the economy has had a dire impact not only on Palestinians, but on Israelis as well.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 05:40 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Suddenly you seem all red in the face. I am simply posing questions. Are their marriage restrictions on poor, black Americans? Can they legally be denied property? Can they legally be denied freedom of movement? Can they legally be denied access to publically funded schools in richer, white areas?

I am not denying that all societies face discrimination. What I am examining is state sanctioned discrimination in light of your claim that Israel is a democracy.


Believe me when I say that you could never make me red in the face.

As for property rights., well you know full well that these are issues still before the israeli Supreme Court. These issues affect both Jews and Muslims in that there are areas in Jerusalem and elsehwere where Jews cannot purchase property either. Im confidant that Israel's fiercly independant Courts will resolve this matter.

The marriage restrictions are highly problamatic I agree and need resolution.

No Israeli citizen is denied freedom of movement unless there is a severe military issue.

The school system in israel is funded via religion. Public funds go to faith-based schools. No one is denied an education. And yes some Muslim schools are poorly funded and this must be corrected. Democracies work out their problems and these too will be dealt with.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 September 2004 06:06 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But the discrimination against Arabs in Israel proper is institutional. There are Arab towns and there are Jewish towns. Arabs towns are subject to military and police intrusions unknown in Jewish towns. Such a nice euphamism, "military issue" happens how often? And according to Freedom House, " Some one million Arab citizens (roughly 19 percent of the population) receive inferior education, housing, and social services relative to the Jewish population."

And this does not even begin to address how you reconcile the issue in the territories where one, a minority, ethnic group has full rights and protections of citizenship and another, the majority, do not.

And then there is the courts. Israeli courts are, I agree, independent. But the members are appointed by the government. Furthermore, Israel has no constitution protecting minority rights. The court recently upheld the deportation of Palestinians to the penal colony known as the Gaza Strip. Tell me, need an Israeli Jew fear deportation to Gaza?

[ 22 September 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 07:12 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If the Middle East were only like canada life would be fine wouldn't it? There is a far different reality in the Middle East and some of the extremist elements the Israeli people have to deal with are nothing like anything we have ever seen here.

Just ask Eugene Armstrong or Jack Hemsley. Sadly they can no longer respond the terrorist types that are prevelant in the Middle East just sawed off their heads. It 's a different neighborhood there and sometimes as Shimon Peres and Yossi Beilan have explained Israelis have to use methods that are distasteful to protect their citizens.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 September 2004 07:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
If the Middle East were only like canada life would be fine wouldn't it? There is a far different reality in the Middle East and some of the extremist elements the Israeli people have to deal with are nothing like anything we have ever seen here.

I know. Some of those settlers are really something else, aren't they?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 22 September 2004 07:19 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is a far different reality in the Middle East and some of the extremist elements the Israeli people have to deal with are nothing like anything we have ever seen here.

Really? From what I saw, it was typical racism and second-class citizenship, the type you'd see here if you ever visited a reservation. You know, the usual.

[ 22 September 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 07:23 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

I know. Some of those settlers are really something else, aren't they?


Them too but in comparision to the beheaders they are downright angels.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 22 September 2004 07:26 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
At least the beheaders get it over with quick. The settlers make sure the torture is à petit feu and decades-long.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 07:26 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

Really? From what I saw, it was typical racism and second-class citizenship, the type you'd see here if you ever visited a reservation. You know, the usual.

[ 22 September 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]



My god Hinterland what are you saying...that there is racism and second-class citizenship elsewhere other than Israel? Even in Canada? Perhaps the Federal government ought to return most of northern Quebec and Ontario to the native people. That wouldn't even scratch the surface in terms of what our ancestors stole from them.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 22 September 2004 07:30 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My god Hinterland what are you saying...that there is racism and second-class citizenship elsewhere other than Israel?

Yeah, Macabee, that's what I'm saying. Of course, I'm also saying that you claiming some sort of Israeli exceptionalism is rather dense and propagandist, but...well, you know.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 22 September 2004 07:34 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
There is a far different reality in the Middle East and some of the extremist elements the Israeli people have to deal with are nothing like anything we have ever seen here.

Just ask Eugene Armstrong or Jack Hemsley.


Are Iraqi insurgent groups now operating in Israel? This is an important development. Do you have a link? I'd like to find out more about this.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 September 2004 07:52 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, I am quite interested in that also. Of course, even Iraq there was no such brutality until the US invaded and occupied that nation. So now, what happens in that hellhole, the creation of which was fully supported by Israel, provides justification for racist policies in Israel where no person has ever had their head sawed off.

And meanwhile, Israel is open to Americans who routinely strap humans to tables and inject toxic chemicals into their veins in act most Americans have indicated they would like to view on television.

Edited to add: Macabee, look how far you have come in justifying racist policies? At what point do you turn and head back? Or are you already past that point?

[ 22 September 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 08:10 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:

Are Iraqi insurgent groups now operating in Israel? This is an important development. Do you have a link? I'd like to find out more about this.



Gee is that what I said...funny I see no mention of them operating in Israel. You must be referring to someone else from a different thread.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 08:12 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Yes, I am quite interested in that also. Of course, even Iraq there was no such brutality until the US invaded and occupied that nation. So now, what happens in that hellhole, the creation of which was fully supported by Israel, provides justification for racist policies in Israel where no person has ever had their head sawed off.


[ 22 September 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]



Oh silly silly me... the barbarians who sawed off the heads of those innocent people...hell Its Israel and America's fault. Damn how did I miss that one.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 September 2004 08:29 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Of course, even Iraq there was no such brutality until the US invaded and occupied that nation.

No beheadings, but torture rape and totalitarianism. There was no street crime, But Saddam was still a sadistic fuckwit. I opposed the war and think that the Iraqis should have had the opportunity to overthrow the beast of Baghdad themselves. I also understand that the Baathist social safety net rocked hard. But you can't say that Saddam's Iraq was brutality free. It's simply not true.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 September 2004 08:36 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't say it was brutality free, did I? I did say the brutality now apparent, did not exist. And even the British are admitting the excesses of Saddam are not what the propaganda mills have made it to be. Do you have evidence of the so-called rape rooms? There is plenty of evidence that boys and women were raped under US custody. What do you suggest we do about the butchers of Washington (who supported Saddam during the worst of all his excesses including ppreventing sanctions following the gas attacks on the Kurds)?

quote:
Oh silly silly me... the barbarians who sawed off the heads of those innocent people...hell Its Israel and America's fault. Damn how did I miss that one.

Oh, Macabee, you are silly. I did no such thing. You, however, have just used the war in Iraq to justify institutionalized Israeli racism. You are no longer apologizing but now advocating.

[ 22 September 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 September 2004 08:38 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Only in your mind Wingy...only in your mind
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 22 September 2004 08:41 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
No, I'd say you're advocating racism, Macabee. I'm pretty sure you've been doing that for quite some time, now.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 September 2004 08:41 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, in this thread. Can't even be honest about your own words, eh? Tsk, tsk. What a shame. Good way to derail the discussion. though, eh?

A little turn to stereotypes and branding of Arabs as terrorists and look where we are, eh? very good, Macabee.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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Babbler # 2440

posted 22 September 2004 08:48 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Only in your mind Wingy...only in your mind

Well then please explain. In a conversation about Israel you suddenly made mention of two American victims of an attack by an Iraqi group. Where's the connection? I'll ask again. Do you have information to suggest that Iraqi insurgent groups are operating inside Israel? Or in the West Bank and Gaza? It would be a big story if it's true.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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Babbler # 4117

posted 22 September 2004 10:36 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And even the British are admitting the excesses of Saddam are not what the propaganda mills have made it to be. Do you have evidence of the so-called rape rooms?

OK dude, you've got me bang to rights. I don't have evidence. But I do believe that Bob Fisk visited a rape room at the end of Gulf War 1, he said so in an article he wrote during the buildup to the invasion. Do you know whether he ( Saddam)had them or not? You've obviously read tons of material on the Middle East.Otherwise you would be unable to debate the issues surrounding the region so skillfully. I believe you are intellectually honest and an honorable, decent human being ( otherwise you wouldn't be here, fighting against injustice) I know a little about Iraq but not a lot, please help me to understand more about its history.

quote:
What do you suggest we do about the butchers of Washington (who supported Saddam during the worst of all his excesses including ppreventing sanctions following the gas attacks on the Kurds)?

They(the Iraqi people) need to use guns. Lots and lots of guns.
The sexual assaults performed by those American troops are repugnant. All rapes are repugnant.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4768

posted 22 September 2004 10:50 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
in the spirit of constructive discussion and progressiveness,

Babble should add those vomiting smiles. This one is just too much.

From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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Babbler # 3807

posted 22 September 2004 11:05 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are Iraqi insurgent groups now operating in Israel? This is an important development. Do you have a link? I'd like to find out more about this.

That's not what our friendly flack meant, of course, but his comment is a babble example of the Likudization of the world that Naomi Klein warned about.

[ 22 September 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 22 September 2004 11:17 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

That's not what our friendly flack meant, of course, but his comment is a babble example of the Likudization of the world that Naomi Klein warned about.

[ 22 September 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


It's also an example of Richard Perle's decontextualization of terrorism. There is no historical or political context to terror, you see. Or least none worth talking about. Terrorists are all the same. They're just evil. There is no cause for their actions, no purpose and no agenda. They just hate our freedoms. You're with us or you're with them.

I'm making myself nauseous.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 22 September 2004 11:37 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Do you know whether he ( Saddam)had them or not?


No, I don't. But I do know that in 1991, a young woman sat before the US congress and testified that in a Kuwaiti maternity ward she witnessed babies being pulled alive from incubators. And it turned out this young woman was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador, that she could not have witnessed such atrocities because not only was she not in a maternity hospital at the time of the invasion, she wasn't even in Kuwait. That wonderful bit of propaganda was brought to us via Hill and Knowlton a public relations firm. And we know this:

quote:
President Bush on many occasions has pointed out that Iraq is better off without Saddam because his regime was known to have used “torture and rape rooms” at Al Ghraib prison. Now you know President Bush did not order our military people to use those same rooms to rape and torture Iraqi “detainees.” He says so and I believe him. But I wonder if you have evidence that Saddam ordered the Iraqi state or local police to “torture and rape,” or might he also insist as Mr. Bush has that he was at the tippy top of the national government and if he had known what excesses were committed by local cops, he would have put a stop to it.

To tell you the truth, John, as far as I can recall, there have been no assertions of the “brutality” of Saddam’s regime from anyone but the Iraqi exiles associated with Ahmet Chalabi or those Kurds who fought on the Iranian side in the Iran/Iraq war. There are all kinds of anecdotes about Saddam doing dreadful things, entire books written about them, but the source of all of them is the same pool of people who have been feeding faked “evidence” of WMD and Al Qaeda connections to our government. Can it be that there is nothing that Saddam has done all these years that cannot be justified as the permissible acts of a head of state acting in defense of his people. Yes, he invaded Kuwait in 1990, but in retrospect that was a really easy war to justify, given the economic warfare being conducted against Iraq by the Emir of Kuwait. I mean easy in relation to now having to justify this American invasion and destruction of good chunks of Iraq, on false premises.

President Bush still has it in his head that Saddam tried to assassinate his father in 1993, but if you did the smallest bit of digging you would find this was a hoax perpetrated by the neo-cons. The President also has it in his head that Saddam committed genocide against the Kurds in 1988, killing tens of thousands of them with poison gas and/or machine guns. If you lifted a little pinky to get to the bottom of this story, you will find it is also made of neo-con whole cloth. I’m not making wild assertions, John, because I have spent countless hours on this subject and find no loopholes left. Just call Human Rights Watch and ask if they have yet found the mass graves of those tens of thousands of Kurds and they will sheepishly admit they are still looking.

source: Saddam suddenly looks innocent


And we know the neo-con source for all these allegations was Ahmed Chalabi, leader of Iraqi National Congress, which was founded by who? A PR firm:

quote:
The Rendon Group is a secretive public relations firm that has assisted a number of U.S. military interventions in nations including Argentina, Colombia, Haiti, Iraq, Kosovo, Panama and Zimbabwe. Rendon's activities include organizing the Iraqi National Congress, a PR front group designed to foment the overthrow of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein.

In a 1998 speech to the National Security Conference (NSC), John Rendon described himself as "an information warrior, and a perception manager. This is probably best described in the words of Hunter S. Thompson, when he wrote 'When things turn weird, the weird turn pro.'"


If a foreign nation hired a private company to establish an organization to foment unrest and violence in our country, what would we call it?

I don't know the truth other than it was the first pre-war casualty.

quote:

All rapes are repugnant.

Agreed.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 22 September 2004 11:39 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Babble should add those vomiting smiles. This one is just too much.

You liked that one eh, Kev? Nice to see you crawl out from under your bridge just to be a bitch.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 22 September 2004 11:59 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:

Well then please explain. In a conversation about Israel you suddenly made mention of two American victims of an attack by an Iraqi group. Where's the connection? I'll ask again. Do you have information to suggest that Iraqi insurgent groups are operating inside Israel? Or in the West Bank and Gaza? It would be a big story if it's true.


Last I recall Israel was in the Middle East. That was what I was referring to.

That you and Wingy want to insist that Im making a racist argument only proves that you are unwilling to recognize that in the Middle East there are dangerous barbaric extremists who saw the heads off innocent people. And that most of the REGIMES are dictatorial in nature. That you wish to accuse me of being racist for pointing out these two obvious facts is wierd. But then I have come to expect that here from some.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 22 September 2004 11:59 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
International Confederation of Free Trade Unions

quote:
The trade union rights of Israeli workers are fairly well respected. Palestinian workers still suffer discrimination in law, and in practice can rarely get to Israel to work. Other foreign workers, notably Chinese construction workers, find their rights completely ignored and face appalling working conditions.

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 23 September 2004 12:05 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That you and Wingy want to insist that Im making a racist argument only proves that you are unwilling to recognize that in the Middle East there are dangerous barbaric extremists who saw the heads off innocent people. And that most of the REGIMES are dictatorial in nature. That you wish to accuse me of being racist for pointing out these two obvious facts is wierd. But then I have come to expect that here from some.

Mentioning all of those things would be fine, if it were not for the fact that your entire purpose for mentioning them is to create a smokescreen for Israel opression and militarism.

Your logic amounts to the Government of Suadi Arabia excusing itself on the basis that Ida Amin Dada was worse. Who cares!

This thread is about labour activities in Israel. I object to your selfish attempt to deflect atttention from the fact that Israeli government workers have been unpaid for 3 months. Absolutely absurd that someone who pretends to have so much concern for the welfare of Israelis refuses to even comment on what is, at least on the surface, a major violation of labour law.

What a charalatan!


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 23 September 2004 12:18 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Last I recall Israel was in the Middle East. That was what I was referring to.

Wingy was talking about discrimination against Arabs in Israel and in the occupied terroritories. Suddenly you jumped over to Iraq to talk about a group that had kidnapped two Americans and one Brit, demanding that the authorities release two Iraqi women who the Americans have been holding as "high value" detainees.

One is left to wonder how the two are connected unless you're suggesting that Iraqi groups are now operating in Israel and the territories. Or unless you're suggesting that terrorism anywhere, by anyone, gives Israel the right to discriminate against its own Arab population.

Do you know for a fact that the Iraqi kidnappers are Arabs? Might they be Kurds? Do you care? Would it matter?

Does it matter to you that the kidnappers had a specific demand? That given the recent history of American treatment of high value Iraqi detainees, the two women may themselves already have been victims of mistreatment?

Most of all, do you care that it had nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand and amounted to a complete distraction? Or that in claiming that bad acts by one group justifies action against a different group, you're employing exactly the same kind of disingenuous rhetoric that George Bush used to justify the invasion of Iraq?

See? I can yell at you without ever calling you a racist. I'm done now.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 23 September 2004 12:30 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If a foreign nation hired a private company to establish an organization to foment unrest and violence in our country, what would we call it?

That would be fine. Except that it's not just right wing ghouls who are saying these things. Many of our people, including Robert Fisk have said that Saddam has done monstrous things to his own people and that he is a psychopath.
I believe that many things we heard about weren't true. They " babies from incubators" story being the most famous. Before the war, Mr. Fisk said that Saddam was a tyrant and should be toppled. He simply said that the Americans should find real honest to God evidence that Saddam had chemical weapons/Had links Osama bin Laden/was building a nuclear bomb. Unfortunately they didn't, and haven't.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 September 2004 12:35 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That would be fine. Except that it's not just right wing ghouls who are saying these things. Many of our people, including Robert Fisk have said that Saddam has done monstrous things to his own people and that he is a psychopath.

Fisk has said similar things about Sharon. After all Sabra and Shatila was Fisk's coming out party.

Fisk, was opposed to the war period. He did not believe that the US should find prove before proceeding. Fisk new that deposing Saddam was opeing pandora's box. He is also not someone who generally feels that Arab problems can be solved by americans, or Israelis for theat matter.

[ 23 September 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 23 September 2004 12:40 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That you and Wingy want to insist that Im making a racist argument

I don't want to do any such thing. You keep forcing me. I mean, here I am, merely examining the statement that Israel is democracy against the backgropund of institutionalized Israeli racism, which you don't deny, when suddenly you excuse such racism due to "ome of the extremist elements the Israeli people have to deal with" and "It 's a different neighborhood there and sometimes as Shimon Peres and Yossi Beilan have explained Israelis have to use methods that are distasteful to protect their citizens." And these comments atre made in relation to events totally unrelated to the topic at hand.

If your purpose was not to color all Arabs with the brush of barbarism (because if all Arabs are barbaric then Israel, in their neighbourhood, must be brutal to protect itself) why raise it all and particularly in the ocntext of Israel?

As I have said, you have left the realm of apologizing and have become an advocate.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 23 September 2004 12:49 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That would be fine. Except that it's not just right wing ghouls who are saying these things.
Which things? Do you think Fisk would agree Bush and Blair are psychopaths? But, for the record, the only statement I can find from Fisk is this one:
quote:
Far better for the US and British governments will be the macabre discovery of torture chambers and "rape-rooms" and prisoners with personal accounts of the most terrible suffering at the hands of Saddam's secret police. This will "prove" how right "we" are to liberate these poor people.
From here: The war of misinformation has begun

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 23 September 2004 01:14 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Say, did y'all hear there's a general strike in Israel?

You'd never know it by this thread.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 23 September 2004 08:03 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Say, did y'all hear there's a general strike in Israel?
You'd never know it by this thread.


Yay! Macabee has succeeded!


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 23 September 2004 08:15 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Do you know for a fact that the Iraqi kidnappers are Arabs? Might they be Kurds? Do you care? Would it matter?
Did I ever mention the barbarians nationalities or faith? Again YOU are the one who has done so not me.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 23 September 2004 09:05 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought *I* was the one that mentioned faith! No fair, you all said it was my week to do that!


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 23 September 2004 09:25 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How did Iraq get into this thread?

Oh. I see.

Mac, are you aware that anyone anywhere in the world could be reading what you publish here? Do you honestly not care that thousands might conclude that you are stupid?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 23 September 2004 09:42 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know I tell my children that the word "stupid" is not only offensive but dirty. I have asked them to refrain from engaging in language like that because it is what we call in Judaism "loshen hora" or the spreading of bad names. It is considered one of the lowest forms of expression and sinful.

Disagree with me if you will. But namecalling and silly ad hominem attacks that are personal in nature are not only (as I understand the new rules) against babble policy, it is plain crass. Pure Loshen Hora.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 23 September 2004 09:54 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yawn.

What's on the other channel?


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 23 September 2004 10:09 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Name-calling? Someone engaged in name-calling? Where was that?

I was trying to imagine the word that others -- note that: others -- would apply to conflation such as you perform above, Mac. Ignorant? Crooked?

I dunno. The semantics are obviously not the point, Mac -- as I always tell my granddaughter.

The behaviour is the point.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 23 September 2004 10:17 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have asked them to refrain from engaging in language like that because it is what we call in Judaism "loshen hora" or the spreading of bad names. It is considered one of the lowest forms of expression and sinful.

Good. I'll have something to say the next time I go to confession. My priest was getting bored.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 23 September 2004 10:34 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Name-calling? Someone engaged in name-calling? Where was that?

I was trying to imagine the word that others -- note that: others -- would apply to conflation such as you perform above, Mac. Ignorant? Crooked?

I dunno. The semantics are obviously not the point, Mac -- as I always tell my granddaughter.

The behaviour is the point.


Oh please stop with the deflection and sophistry. It does not become you. You know full well what word YOU used and you meant it to hurt. That is loshen hora. And if you tell your grand daughter that the "behaviour" is the point then you should lead by example.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 23 September 2004 10:44 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your conflation was moral behaviour? Your non sequitur was moral behaviour? Your disingenuity is moral behaviour?

Hey, Mac: I'll trade you an ethnic expression, though. In Scotland, you will often hear people say of someone else -- as a compliment, mind -- "She has no side to her."

What the Scots mean by that expression is, more or less, what you see or hear is what you get. She doesn't play games; she's in touch with her own feelings; she's straight (in the non-sexual sense).


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 23 September 2004 10:45 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What are you talking about, Mac? Skdadl quite clearly said that thousands could read what you wrote and conclude that you are stupid. She did not call you stupid at all. She was merely commenting on the possible inferences of others. That you would leap to such a conclusion based only on the loosest of vaguaries is quite telling.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 23 September 2004 10:46 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Artful Dodger?

or Innocence Abused?


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 23 September 2004 12:25 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Great link
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 23 September 2004 01:09 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow, let me get this straight . . . in Macabee's world, if you speak out against Israel you are being anti-semitic, but speaking out against the Arab/Muslim world does not make anti-Arab/Muslim. . . . in Macabee's world a Jew in the occupied territory is an Israeli citizen and protected by the laws and constitution of Israel extended over the occupied territory, but a Palestinian in the occupied territory has no rights . . . in macabee's world Israel is justified in taking extraordinary violent actions because "the ME is not Canada", but the Palestinians (in the same ME I presume) should act like civilized people and stop taking extraordinary violent actions . . . in macabee's world Iraqi insurgents beheading hostages justifies the undemocratic and violent treatment of Palestinians . . . in macabees's world calling someone stupid is a sin, calling someone an anti-semite however is a valid debating tactic.

Not only is he an expert in derailing a topic, but he can do so while not caring one whit how bad he embarrases himeself in the process.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 23 September 2004 01:28 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
Wow, let me get this straight . . . in Macabee's world, if you speak out against Israel you are being anti-semitic, .

Wow let me get this straight. In No Yards' world making up lies about people is normal.

Please show me and all your other Babble friends who believe this EXACTLY where I have ever said such a thing. This is (as seems to be more and more the case for some here) an outright LIE. Its untrue, a FIB, a falsehood, a tall-tale...Most will know that I have never said such a thing and have gone to great lengths to say quite the opposite , that to critisize Israeli policy is NOT anti-Semitism.

But alas there are some here who not only violate Babble policy by calling fellow Babblers stupid (no matter how much they try to dress up their moral error) but also continue to lie about fellow Babblers.

All I can do is keep on exposing the lies and challenge the moral vacuity.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 23 September 2004 01:35 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
You know I tell my children that the word "stupid" is not only offensive but dirty. I have asked them to refrain from engaging in language like that because it is what we call in Judaism "loshen hora" or the spreading of bad names. It is considered one of the lowest forms of expression and sinful.

Disagree with me if you will. But namecalling and silly ad hominem attacks that are personal in nature are not only (as I understand the new rules) against babble policy, it is plain crass. Pure Loshen Hora.


Well, since the thread got derailed and lagatta already made a new one, I might as well get a parting shot on this one.

The above is sophistry of the highest order, and transparently specious in intent. Macabee, at this point your desire to be deliberately patronizing and obtuse is clearly evident, and no excuses you make will be accepted.

Go back to increasing the entropy of the universe and stop wasting my time.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 23 September 2004 01:37 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gosh, look how long this thread is.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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