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Author Topic: Remembering the victims
Macabee
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posted 19 September 2004 10:02 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As the three year anniversary (in Hebrew the Yartziet...memorial) of the 15 victims of the Sbarro suicide bombing approaches we should all pause to remember terror's victims.

Terror's victims

I am also conscious of the many innocent Palestinian victims that have been caught in the cross-fire of this terrible conflagration.

As the Jewish holy day of Yom Kippur approaches, I for one pray for peace. Peace for all families that they should know no more pain and suffering.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 September 2004 10:17 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank-you for remembering the victims on both sides, Macabee. I appreciate it. If only CNN did.

[ 19 September 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 September 2004 10:39 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sadly on these issues the media can rarely get it right.

Alleged CNN bias


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DrConway
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posted 19 September 2004 01:04 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jesus. You ALWAYS manage to find a way to queer the deal no matter what the topic is being discussed. I swear, you just love shoving your oar in anywhere you can with your personal agenda.

For someone who wants to memorialize victims on the approach to Yom Kippur you have some nerve working in a couple of cheap shots about CNN's "bias".


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 September 2004 01:33 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An interesting comparison can be made here between the two article;

From the article critical of CNN:

quote:
Over the past 18 months, CNN has been a primary target of complaints for its coverage of the Mideast conflict. Jewish victims are consistently downplayed, while Palestinians -- even the heinous suicide bombers -- are humanized with vivid personal descriptions and photos of their funerals.

On Saturday night, February 16, a Palestinian terrorist attacked Israeli teenagers sitting at a pizzeria in the town of Karnei Shomron. The suicide bomber killed Keren Shatsky and Nehemia Amar, both 15 years old. Several other teens, hit by flying nails placed in the bomb, remain in very critical condition.

CNN's website coverage, however, curtly mentioned the "killing of two Israelis" -- failing to reveal the Israeli victims' names, or the fact that they were teenagers. Furthermore, a large percentage of CNN's audience is American, yet CNN did not report that Shatsky was a U.S. citizen.


Fair enough as a deconstruction of media. Yet, the first article linked:

Does not mention the name of the bomber, or show a photo of his funeral, in fact "the bomber" is not even gendered. The article then goes into extreme detail about those killed, their families, their families reactions, and offers detailed human portraits and photos of each vicitim.

I don't see the purpose of posting a deconstruction of media that is clearly not in tune with the article that began the thread? Can you explain the apparent disconnect Macabee?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 September 2004 01:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Jesus. You ALWAYS manage to find a way to queer the deal no matter what the topic is being discussed. I swear, you just love shoving your oar in anywhere you can with your personal agenda.

For someone who wants to memorialize victims on the approach to Yom Kippur you have some nerve working in a couple of cheap shots about CNN's "bias".


To be fair, Doc, I brought it up.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 September 2004 01:52 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
An interesting comparison can be made here between the two article;

From the article critical of CNN:

Fair enough as a deconstruction of media. Yet, the first article linked:

Does not mention the name of the bomber, or show a photo of his funeral, in fact "the bomber" is not even gendered. The article then goes into extreme detail about those killed, their families, their families reactions, and offers detailed human portraits and photos of each vicitim.

I don't see the purpose of posting a deconstruction of media that is clearly not in tune with the article that began the thread? Can you explain the apparent disconnect Macabee?


Certainly. I was simply responding to Michelle's statement. She seemed to get it. That you and Doc did not is your problem.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 September 2004 02:02 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I didn't say I agreed with you or your source, Macabee.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 September 2004 02:03 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, its nice that you and Michelle are on the same page, but I asked for you to explain the disconnect between the first article and the second.

Your response to my inquirey was: "Certainly." Then you started talking about Michelle, and how the thread had evolved, not the diconnect.

One article accuses CNN of bias, and bases that on cogent deconstruction of media, but the elements of that bias are not evident in the first CNN article. So, again, can you explain the disconnect between the two articles?

[ 19 September 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 September 2004 02:16 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Well, I didn't say I agreed with you or your source, Macabee.

Did I say you did? I was merely trying to demonstrate the difficulty the media has in this area. Heaven forbid Michelle that anyone think otherwise.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 September 2004 02:17 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Well, its nice that you and Michelle are on the same page, but I asked for you to explain the disconnect between the first article and the second.

Your response to my inquirey was: "Certainly." Then you started talking about Michelle, and how the thread had evolved, not the diconnect.

One article accuses CNN of bias, and bases that on cogent deconstruction of media, but the elements of that bias are not evident in the first CNN article. So, again, can you explain the disconnect between the two articles?

[ 19 September 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


What is it with you and "disconnects"?? See my last response to Michelle for what I was trying to do and stop trying to make something from nothing. Its too nice a day!!

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Cueball
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posted 19 September 2004 04:30 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok, I guess you don't get it.

The second article depends on a perticular kind of media analysis, usually associated with Noam Chomsky and other latter day media critics. It is based on doing an analysis of language in media, wherein the underlying ideological predispositions of the media source, betray a hidden bias. In this case the claim is made that this bias appears in CNN. This is proven by the "de-humanization" of Israeli victims of a suicide attack, they are not named, nor are they identified by human attributes that would impute the reader with a natural 'human' sympathetic reaction to the persons killed. On the other hand they state that the the attacker is named, his relatives are shown at the funeral, details that 'humanize the attacker.

This de-humanization is of the Israeli victims of the attack is deemed to be an example of CNN bias against Israelis.

The disconnect is here: The original article you posted exhibits all of these characteristics, except in reverse. It is the Israeli's whom are named, and whose relatives are described in their mourning, and it is the Palestinian attacker who is de-humanized. You can not even establish whether the attacker is male or femal -- very normal information to give in a news article. The Palestinian attacker is just described as "the bomber."

So, following through on the media analysis given in the Jewish World piece as applied to the CNN article above, would lead one to conclude that the CNN article above de-humaizes Palestinians and therefore CNN is biased against Palestinians, not Israelis.

[ 19 September 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 19 September 2004 04:43 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
As the three year anniversary (in Hebrew the Yartziet...memorial) of the 15 victims of the Sbarro suicide bombing approaches we should all pause to remember terror's victims.

Terror's victims

I am also conscious of the many innocent Palestinian victims that have been caught in the cross-fire of this terrible conflagration.


Macabee is, as usual, correct to point out the difference between the Sbarro victims and Palestinians who are redacted by Israel. As we all know, there is nothing terrible, or terrifying about a few Palestinians dying even when these accidental killings reach proportions far in excess of the number of Israelis killed by terrorists. This is because the IDF has specially designed weapons which ensure that no fear, shock, awe, or horror is experienced by their victims or bystanders. These weapons are designed to explode in series whenever Israel is threatened. The resulting blasts produce a special kind of gas which Israeli engineers have designed to smell like roses and to produce images of milk and honey in the minds of all within the blast radius. This chemical mist is also designed to arrest certain normal brain functions which produce strong emotional responses to killing such as fear and outrage. This is necessary to ensure those in the blast radius remain subdued and pliable to instructions from the friendly IDF and to temporarily prevent subsequent shocks to their nervous-systems, minimizing the chance of further threats against Israel and the IDF.

Study of these weapons has shown interesting side-effects may be produced in those who come into contact with the mist that accompanies their explosion. Evidence compiled suggests that those who are exposed may often develop symptoms of a childlike gullability, short- and long-term memory loss, and may in some extreme cases develop delusional and/or paranoid thinking sometimes accompanied by nonsensical verbal outbursts or even violent behaviour.

[ 19 September 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 September 2004 06:01 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Iy never ceases to amaze me that even when someone just wishes to memorialize the victims in a terrible crisis, especially in the Middle East, there will always be some here who just have to make it into and anti-Israel tirade. How sad.

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Cueball
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posted 19 September 2004 06:50 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was talking about CNN, bias and the media theoretically, not Israel. It only relates latterally in terms of Israel as in that all of the material you presented was focussed on Israel.

I was really hoping to get some commentary from on the apparent bias of the article from CNN that opened the thread, given that it follows the exact patern of 'dehumanization' described in the Jewish World piece on bias in CNN.

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 19 September 2004 08:34 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Iy never ceases to amaze me that even when someone just wishes to memorialize the victims in a terrible crisis, especially in the Middle East, there will always be some here who just have to make it into and anti-Israel tirade. How sad.

I agree, Macabee. You, as usual, are quite correct. There are many commentators on this topic who wish to make political capital out of the suffering of some, at the expense of the suffering of others. These people need to be exposed for the insensitive oppurtunists they are. Where Israel is concerned, it seems that some simply have blinders on.

[ 19 September 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 September 2004 08:39 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

I agree, Macabee. You, as usual, are quite correct. There are many commentators on this topic who wish to make political capital out of the suffering of some, at the expense of the suffering of others. These people need to be exposed for the insensitive oppurtunists they are. Where Israel is concerned, it seems that some simply have blinders on.

[ 19 September 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


BL, I guess you feel your "unique" style of wit and sarcasm blends well with Babble. Frankly it is juvenile and silly. But if it puts a smile on your face please dont stop.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 19 September 2004 08:43 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
BL, I guess you feel your "unique" style of wit and sarcasm blends well with Babble. Frankly it is juvenile and silly. But if it puts a smile on your face please dont stop.

I'm terribly hurt that you should accuse me of sarcasm. I meant every word. I really do think that the insensitive oppurtunists surrounding this conflict should be exposed and condemned. Do you not agree? I mean, afterall, what I wrote is really just a paraphrase of what you said.

[ 19 September 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 September 2004 08:56 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
B.L. Zeebub LLD, I can't send you a private message because you don't have the feature turned on.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 September 2004 08:56 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
no doubt BL ...no doubt
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Coyote
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posted 19 September 2004 08:57 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

I am also conscious of the many innocent Palestinian victims that have been caught in the cross-fire of this terrible conflagration.


I think part of the problem is this quote, Mac. Many innocent Palestinians, like many innocent Israelis, have not been "caught in the crossfire"; they were the intentional targets of Israeli military incursions, just like many Israelis have died because of intentional bombings.

You have presented Israeli casualties as victims, whose perpetrators can be named and blamed, while presenting Palestinian casualties as collateral damage of an awful situations. That is reductionist, to say the least.

At the same time, I grieve with you for the civilians target by suicide-bombings; I wish you would grieve with me for the victims of Israeli aggression.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 September 2004 10:05 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where there has been unwarranted agression I of course condemn it with all my heart. But all is not as black and white as you paint it either. Yes there has been some horrible behaviour by some in the IDF but your characterization that the IDF are some how to be equated with the terrorists is just plain unacceptable.
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DrConway
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posted 19 September 2004 10:07 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dead people are still dead regardless of the method by which they die.

We should keep this in mind.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 September 2004 11:10 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was really interested in the stuff that Macabee brought up abour bias in the media. There was this really interesting deconstruction of CNN reportage in the piece in the Jewish World. I'm still trying to figure out if he thinks that lead article to this thread might also be biased, on the basis of the dehumanization of one side.

Can you see it, Macabee, or am I missing something?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 September 2004 11:51 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I did not post this article to discuss your ideas. It was posted as a memorial to the victims .
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 September 2004 12:41 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CNN to air "victims of Terror"
Letters of response

One could modify these templates to address the current CNN infotainment spectacle.


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B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 20 September 2004 01:46 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Where there has been unwarranted agression I of course condemn it with all my heart. But all is not as black and white as you paint it either. Yes there has been some horrible behaviour by some in the IDF but your characterization that the IDF are some how to be equated with the terrorists is just plain unacceptable.

Macabee is, again, correct. Some aggression is warranted, and should escape our moral oppobrium. It is also true that there has been much horrible behaviour by the IDF. It is furthermore true that the IDF and "the terrorists" are not the same.

So far, Macabee is three for three.

[ 20 September 2004: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 20 September 2004 03:20 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I did not post this article to discuss your ideas. It was posted as a memorial to the victims .

No I know. But then you extended the thread by posting a critque of CNN reporting in general. I thought you might be interested in the comparison. I thought you might be interested in discussing bias in the media, since you raised the topic.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 20 September 2004 03:36 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Where there has been unwarranted agression I of course condemn it with all my heart. But all is not as black and white as you paint it either. Yes there has been some horrible behaviour by some in the IDF but your characterization that the IDF are some how to be equated with the terrorists is just plain unacceptable.
Is it?

I mean that sincerely, Mac. I have never questioned the actions of the IDF as it pertains to the defence of Israeli citizens: meaning checkpoints on the Green Line, search and seizure on the Green Line, even killing of militants who have entered Israel proper.

It is the rest where I see, as you might say, equations.

Take Jenin. Let's forget the debate for now as to whether or not what took place constitutes a "massacre". What we see very clearly is that no matter what other facts may pertain, an Israeli military unit entered a refugee camp on Palestinian land and innocents died as a result. Whole blocks were levelled in the assault.

Take the Gaza uproar of this past spring. What are we to make of these attacks? And in your heart, does not a part of you take sides with those who rose up in arms to fight of their attackers, no matter how hopeless the fight?

You think you can draw a nice, clean line between killing done by and the killing of Israelis. It's not that simple.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 20 September 2004 08:04 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

No I know. But then you extended the thread by posting a critque of CNN reporting in general. I thought you might be interested in the comparison. I thought you might be interested in discussing bias in the media, since you raised the topic.


It was not a critique. Michelle made a point about the media to which I agreed with an example.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 20 September 2004 08:22 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Is it?


Take Jenin. Let's forget the debate for now as to whether or not what took place constitutes a "massacre". What we see very clearly is that no matter what other facts may pertain, an Israeli military unit entered a refugee camp on Palestinian land and innocents died as a result. Whole blocks were levelled in the assault.

What are we to make of these attacks? And in your heart, does not a part of you take sides with those who rose up in arms to fight of their attackers, no matter how hopeless the fight?

You think you can draw a nice, clean line between killing done by and the killing of Israelis. It's not that simple.


Here is a report that responds to your questions. While you may not like the source the information is worth a read.

Jenin Report


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 20 September 2004 09:18 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Assumes the conclusion, then sets out to 'prove' it with selective quotations.

Completely unsatisfactory, and well below what I'd expect even from the ADL. And that's saying quite a bit right there.

As a case in point, the following is used as part of the 'evidence' for the international community's prejudging the events at Jenin:

quote:
"The international community cannot permit the indiscriminate killings of Israeli civilians or the wanton killings of Palestinian civilians and the destruction of the civilian infrastructure to support life. It cannot be right to wage war on civilian populations...."

Mary Robinson, UNHCR, italics in original, emphasis mine.

Reading further on, any US reaction, even when an Assistant Secretary of State finds "on-site findings of 'disturbing report(s) about the human tragedies'", is presented in the best possible light, while statements such as were made by a Jewish British MP are presented in the context of anti-Israel bias.

That report isn't anti-defamation, it's defamation and slander.

Interesingly, in the 'Facts' section, the fighters in Jenin's willingness to go down fighting to the death is presented as a terrible and evil thing.

Interestingly, because of course the history of Israel and diaspora Jewry does contain, shall we say, a few instances of similar willingness to fight to the last drop of blood.

Oh, but since the ADL, while railing against 'prejudging' has effectively prejudged the defenders of Jenin as bestial barbarians intent only on seeking death, I guess they don't fall into the same league as the noble IDF. I wonder what the Romans thought of the Masadans, or the Syrians the Maccabees, or the Barak tank brigade, for that matter.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 20 September 2004 01:02 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Here is a report that responds to your questions. While you may not like the source the information is worth a read.

Jenin Report



Sorry Mac, that's not a response. I asked you questions that transcended your partisan interests; something you are unable of doing. That is too bad, both for you and for the people you claim to care about.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 20 September 2004 03:04 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It was not a critique. Michelle made a point about the media to which I agreed with an example.

Not quite, you exmaple was a critque that used a specific kind of media analysis. Reading it I was struck by how closely your orginal article matched the sailent features of that critque. One minor difference seprated the two, the article with which you beagn this thread showed bias against Palestinians.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 20 September 2004 04:18 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Not quite, you exmaple was a critque that used a specific kind of media analysis. Reading it I was struck by how closely your orginal article matched the sailent features of that critque. One minor difference seprated the two, the article with which you beagn this thread showed bias against Palestinians.


OK

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 20 September 2004 05:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excelent!
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 20 September 2004 10:11 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Excelent!
Right


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 September 2004 10:20 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sabra and Shatila: September, 1982
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 20 September 2004 11:59 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, I am glad that you and I agree for once! I mean you'd have to pretty stupid not to see the parallel between the CNN bias described in the Jewish World piece and the bias displayed in the article you posted at the begining of the the thread.

Or, did you mean something else than OK, when you said "ok?"


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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