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Author Topic: Palestinian economy in shambles
Macabee
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posted 15 September 2004 08:52 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A sad story.

Christian Science Monitor


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 September 2004 01:48 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee! Wonder how that happened?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 15 September 2004 02:09 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why don't the Saudis share their oil revenue with them? Jews around the world are already always giving money to Israel (though i have never given one red cent). Why don't Arabs show some solidarity with their Palestinian and give them money - money for social services and ediucation, NOT reward money to the families of suicide bombers.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 15 September 2004 02:18 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why doesn't Israel just get the hell out of the west bank and gaza? And Arab countries have given a lot of money to the Palestinians over the years. I fail to see what that has to do with anything.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 September 2004 02:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Isn't Saudi Arabia the largest donor of international aid per capita in the world?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 15 September 2004 02:27 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Why don't the Saudis share their oil revenue with them? Jews around the world are already always giving money to Israel (though i have never given one red cent). Why don't Arabs show some solidarity with their Palestinian and give them money - money for social services and ediucation, NOT reward money to the families of suicide bombers.

So the Saudis should pay Palestinians because of racial obligations? I guess from an Israeli-apartheid philosophy that makes sense, since racism is the undercurrent in all Israeli dealings with Palestinians.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 15 September 2004 02:38 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
C'mon, you guys: Arabs -- they're all the same. We all know that, don't we?

In other news today: Nixon and Reagan still dead.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 September 2004 02:43 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, but which ones are the real Arabs: The Egyptian ones, the Morrocan ones, the Iraqi ones or the Syrians ones or the Hedjaz? Are they Shia Muslim, Sunni Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian or Alawite? Do they have brown skin, white skin or something in between?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 15 September 2004 02:56 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There you go, Cueball, reminding us of all those other countries the Palestinians could happily have packed up and moved to. I mean: pick them up, plunk them down somewhere else, anywhere else in, ah, Arabia -- at least they would have been among their own kind. Pretty much. Well, roughly, as you point out.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 15 September 2004 03:43 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And yet not a word about the PA authorities and specifically Arafat who is as responsible as anyone else for this travesty.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 15 September 2004 03:46 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is there any truth to the claim that Arafat's wife seems fairly comfortable in Paris? That her "economy" is doing fantastically well, thank you very much?
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 15 September 2004 03:46 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bad Arafat! Naughty Arafat!

Now if so many Palestinians didn't have to worry about keeping a roof over their heads and where their next meal is coming from, maybe they could get organized and vote somebody else in.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 15 September 2004 03:49 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As anyone else? Really? How many olive trees has he bulldozed? How many towns has he shot up? How many acres of land has he stolen? How much water has he stolen?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 15 September 2004 03:57 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course there is poverty and 11% unemployment in Israel. And who knows what it is in the OT's because the right wing just aren't allowing information out about social or economic conditions. The security wall is about a lot more than security. It's about right wing economic warfare on an already poverty stricken people.

Benjamin Disraeli said something about never letting the oppressed make so much as a safety pin. Sado-monetarists and colonialists will have a high approval rating for what people like Nelson Mandela are saying amounts to Israeli apartheid.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 September 2004 05:34 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Now if so many Palestinians didn't have to worry about keeping a roof over their heads and where their next meal is coming from, maybe they could get organized and vote somebody else in.


Vote? No silly Palestinians aren't allowed to vote. If they were allowed to vote it would undermine Israel status as the only democracy in the Middle East, and (more importantly) Sharon's ability to call Arafat a dictator, therefore:

quote:
Palestinians in Jerusalem participated in Palestinian general elections in 1996, with the agreement of the Israeli government, at the time led by Shimon Peres, a moderate who negotiated interim peace deals with the Palestinian Authority.

However, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) staunchly opposes participation of east Jerusalem Arabs in elections.


Iraeli Police Raid Palestinian Offices

[ 15 September 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 15 September 2004 06:35 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Why don't the Saudis share their oil revenue with them? Jews around the world are already always giving money to Israel (though i have never given one red cent). Why don't Arabs show some solidarity with their Palestinian and give them money - money for social services and ediucation, NOT reward money to the families of suicide bombers.

Right, don't give money to the familes directly, don't give money to the P.A., don't give money to any Palestinian organization . . . maybe they should give the money to the Israeli government so THEY could hand it out to "needy" families on the other side of the green line?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 15 September 2004 06:57 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Of course there is poverty and 11% unemployment in Israel. And who knows what it is in the OT's because the right wing just aren't allowing information out about social or economic conditions. The security wall is about a lot more than security. It's about right wing economic warfare on an already poverty stricken people.

Benjamin Disraeli said something about never letting the oppressed make so much as a safety pin. Sado-monetarists and colonialists will have a high approval rating for what people like Nelson Mandela are saying amounts to Israeli apartheid.


And barely a word about the real cuprits, the PA authorities and specifically Arafat who is as responsible as anyone else for this travesty.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 15 September 2004 07:18 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arafat's a thug. He's a corrupt little chieftan who I hold responsible for the lack of organization, discipline, and common sense to effectively challenge the escalation of seizures and city invasions since 2000. Without the occupation, Arafat would be nothing; as it is, his sins are over-looked for the symbolic value he presents: a captive leader of a captive people.

So what? Anyone who seriously tries to suggest that a fucking military occupation, checkpoints, land seizures, city closures, mass arrests, dropping of high-tonnage bombs on civilian apartments, housing demolitions, a wall that steals farmland, the prevention of Palestinian goods from reaching foreign markets, assasinations, week-long curfews, etc. etc. etc. are not directly responsible for what has happened is just trying very hard not to see the truth.

Some people, though, are like that.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 15 September 2004 07:31 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The real cuplrits, Macabee ?. Now that's a good one. Which ethnic group there is being cleansed at a rate of three or four for every Israeli ?.

Is it wealthy Israeli's and Palestinian's who are taking the brunt of this conflict ?.

Which class of citizens benefits the most from a shitty economy and misery in general ?.

Which side of this conflict is using helicopter gunships and firing the odd missile into crowded neighborhoods and killing innocent people ?.

What if your grandfather were woken up in the middle of the night with a rifle butt and his shanty home flattened by a bulldozer donated by the American's ?.

Poverty and power are on the same page in the dictionary.

[ 15 September 2004: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 September 2004 08:04 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And barely a word about the real cuprits, the PA authorities and specifically Arafat who is as responsible as anyone else for this travesty.

Out of curiosity, who would that 'anyone else,' who are responsible be?

[ 15 September 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 15 September 2004 08:28 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Which side of this conflict is using helicopter gunships and firing the odd missile into crowded neighborhoods and killing innocent people ?.

The Americans. Oops, sorry, the thread's about Israel, not Iraq. Carry on.


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 15 September 2004 09:32 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Out of curiosity, who would that 'anyone else,' who are responsible be?

Satan and his daemonic minions, natch.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 15 September 2004 10:01 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Satan and his daemonic minions, natch.



Ya know, I hate those guys. Seriously. Always causing trouble.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 15 September 2004 10:06 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:

The Americans. Oops, sorry, the thread's about Israel, not Iraq. Carry on.


S'OK. They're American helicopters and American missiles. Natural mistake.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
kukuchai
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posted 15 September 2004 10:08 PM      Profile for kukuchai        Edit/Delete Post
It's genocide.
From: Earth | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 15 September 2004 10:09 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So what? Anyone who seriously tries to suggest that a fucking military occupation, checkpoints, land seizures, city closures, mass arrests, dropping of high-tonnage bombs on civilian apartments, housing demolitions, a wall that steals farmland, the prevention of Palestinian goods from reaching foreign markets, assasinations, week-long curfews, etc. etc. etc. are not directly responsible for what has happened is just trying very hard not to see the truth.


That's just the point. in May 2000 the PA was heading to their own state . None of the above was happeening.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 September 2004 10:15 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hear that the PA is planning big expansions into pre-owned rubble industry. In a new era of Israeli/Arab co-operation, the IDF will be providing bulldozers and high explosive ordinance to help develop the bi-lateral business intiative. The rubble can be converted into concrete and stone for use in the security fence.

In a unilateral move, IDF will also be helping to solve the unemployment problem by 'redacting' excess Palestinians.


Hopeful Palestinians consider their new found wealth, after an IDF sponsored house-to-rubble conversion process, exclusively developed for mid-east special economic development projects by the US tax payer.

[ 15 September 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 15 September 2004 10:21 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
That's just the point. in May 2000 the PA was heading to their own state . None of the above was happeening.
You still know who did it, right? You still know who ordered the demolition of houses, throwing up of check-points, the closing of cities, the assassinations, arrests without charge, military incursions into g_d damn refugee camps, destruction of farmland, expansion of settlements, construction of "Jew Only" roads on Palestinian land . . .

We're not saying the same thing, Mac. I think Arafat should have done a better job of highlighting the evil being inflicted on his people by Israel's military-political elite. I think he is a punk. I think the face of a nation should have walked out of his compound the first day and walked to Jerusalem . . . and if the IDF arrested or killed him it would have been right there on international television. I think he is a coward.

You, somehow, think it is okay to blame the victims of Israeli occupation. You will have to sleep at night with that on your conscience, not me.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 15 September 2004 10:29 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Here, grateful Palestinian villagers are seen welcoming IDF rubble manufacturers into their neighbourhood. Soon, with the help of these huge factories on wheels, worthless homes will be converted into valuable rubble for sale on the world export market.

[ 15 September 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 15 September 2004 11:07 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think Arafat's driving, isn't he?

I mean, at least he ordered the bulldozer to go there didn't he?

I mean, he's the one who . . .


kinda falls apart right from the get-go, doesn't it?


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 15 September 2004 11:09 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A survey of the Palestinian Economy

quote:
THE MONTHS of Intifada that began in September 2000 and continue today have been characterized by a visible deterioration in Palestinian infrastructure resulting both from wartime damage and under-investment. For 18 months, there has been zero private investment, which means that the country's capital stock is declining. There has also been a loss of half of Palestinian purchasing power, due to massive unemployment not only among those who can no longer work in Israel, but for those who previously worked in the Palestinian market.

Sixty percent of Palestinian exports have been lost and government spending is halved. Previously, the Palestinian Authority spent over $100 million a month, now it puts little more than $50 million a month into the economy. Even this flow of cash is dependent upon Arab donations.

Poverty is widespread, affecting about half of the population. Direct and indirect losses for the entire economy have been estimated at somewhere between $3.5 billion by international agencies and $10 billion by Palestinians. But even a loss of $3.5 billion means that Palestinians have lost their Gross Domestic Product for an entire year. Prior to September 2000, the Palestinian Authority GDP was nearly $4 billion. The losses continue to add up.


This article is basically saying there has been no GDP growth in the Palestinian Authority controlled areas (such as they are ) for the last three to four years.

quote:
Years ago, some people would get very angry when I described the system created by the Oslo accords as one that relies on cooperation between the Palestinian and Israeli authorities in order to facilitate the very services of Palestinian citizens. At the time, I said that the Palestinian Authority is no more than a front office for the Israeli government, which controls the back office where decisions are made and business is done. With cooperation, imports and exports and licensing for infrastructure and projects all continue. When there is no cooperation, as now, the Palestinian Authority is helpless. Now, the back office is not cooperating, which means that the Palestinian Authority cannot provide the services that its people require.

Illuminating.

quote:
There are those who have been trying to pick up the pieces. The Palestinian Ministry of Public Works, the Palestinian Economic Council for Development and Reconstruction (PECDAR) and some municipalities have been fixing broken roads, water pipes, the electricity network, as well as mending doors and repairing the glass of shop windows and some walls. Still, they have limited resources and can't fix everything. In general, it must be said that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has succeeded in paralyzing the Palestinian Authority for all intents and purposes.

I'm surprised they have a Ministry of Public Works. "Public" anything has been seriously passé for the last 20 years thanks to the drive to corporatize all aspects of our governments worldwide.

quote:
Right now, the major lifeline for the Palestinian economy is the $45 to $50 million coming to the Palestinian Authority to finance the salaries of the public sector. This cash bumped (sic) into the economy each month jumpstarts flagging finances.

For anyone who doubts the efficiacy of Keynesian theory in explaining why it is important to prop up insufficient aggregate demand, this is just another example of the importance of the public sector in employing people and keeping money moving when no one else will do the job.

Furthermore, a report by the Government of Israel (PDF file) indicates that since 1998 the GDP of the PA has been stuck at around $4 billion US dollars, whether by PPP or the exchange rate I don't know. Further, GDP per capita (a rough, though obviously not 100% indicative measure of the national production enjoyed by each citizen) has been falling for years. This is reflective of a high population growth rate coupled with economic stagnation.

It is instructive to note the following:

quote:
By the terms of the Interim
Agreement, the West Bank is divided into three areas, designated A, B, and C. The PA
has civilian responsibility for Palestinians in all three areas, exclusive internal security
responsibility for Area A (18.2%), and shared security responsibility for Area B
(24.8%). Israel maintains full responsibility for the remaining 57% (area C).

Interested readers should pull up a map of Israel and the Occupied Territories to determine where these "Areas" lie.

[ 15 September 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 16 September 2004 03:59 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
That's just the point. in May 2000 the PA was heading to their own state . None of the above was happeening.

Well . . . orchards, farms, and homes were being demolished, and Palestinians were being killed, jailed for no obvious reason, and tortured. Slower, yeah. And there was no violence against Israelis, so I guess it doesn't matter to some, long as the fuzzy-wuzzies were keeping quiet there must not have been any violence, right? And "facts on the ground" were being added at an accelerating pace, cutting the territory administered by the PA into more and more pieces; their eventual statehood was looking less and less likely. And Palestinian incomes were already shrinking, down to less than two thirds in real terms what they had been when Oslo was signed--they were being employed in Israel, but at lower and lower wages. This continuing squeeze was likely to blow open some time or other. But yeah, things were much quieter.

And then that sonofabitch Sharon staged his little provocation and had the bullyboys use live ammo against an unarmed demonstration and shoot a kid. And then Israel responded to demonstrations and some gunfire that caused no casualties with tanks and helicopter gunships shooting up residential neighbourhoods and schools. The killing had begun. Some months later, after the slaughter of loads o' Palestinians and the demolition of loads o' government buildings including most of the police stations, the back and forth led to the first suicide bombings.

Once the violence level was up, Sharon's re-entry to politics was assured, and soon afterwards he was the prime minister. Savvy guy, that's for sure. He knew damn well the only way the electorate would go for the old warhorse was if he made sure there was a war.

And in the face of all this, some people can say the whole thing is *ARAFAT'S* fault? Amazing degree of self-deception; they must need to believe really, really bad, or else, flip side, be unbelievably emotionally threatened by the prospect of facing the simple facts.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 16 September 2004 12:18 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder what the Palestinian economy would be like if all acts of terrorism had ended 100% after the signing of the Oslo Accords and if Arafat had accepted the offer that was on the table in 2000. Billions of dollars of US and UN foreign aid was all ready to start flowing, there could have been a newe regional economy based on good trade relatiuons between Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan etc...Palestine would probably have about the same standard of living of Lebanon by now. Everyone could have lived happily ever after...
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 16 September 2004 12:37 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just accept Civil Unions and shut up about it, 'kay Stockholm? No way are you our equal.


Now, do you get it?


I can just see your response now, which essentially boils down to "it doesn't affect me directly, so I don't care and they should compromise."


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 16 September 2004 12:49 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If my choice was as follows:

1) Civil unions, but I get a good secure job, a big house and can live happily ever after

OR

2) I will devote my life to fighting for equal marriage and this will imply losing my job, having the bank foreclose on my house and I end up panhandling in the street.

I choose Option 1)


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 16 September 2004 12:51 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just accept Civil Unions and shut up about it

huzzah? Is this a warp zone thread?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Right Tory
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posted 16 September 2004 01:42 PM      Profile for Right Tory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
Why doesn't Israel just get the hell out of the west bank and gaza? And Arab countries have given a lot of money to the Palestinians over the years. I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

Even if Israel pulled out of the west bank it won't solve the economic problems.

[ 16 September 2004: Message edited by: Right Tory ]


From: Quebec | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 16 September 2004 02:23 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No. It wouldn't. But it would be a freaking huge step along the path.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Right Tory
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posted 16 September 2004 02:26 PM      Profile for Right Tory     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
No. It wouldn't. But it would be a freaking huge step along the path.

Please, enlighten me, tell me how.


From: Quebec | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 16 September 2004 02:26 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I wonder what the Palestinian economy would be like if all acts of terrorism had ended 100% after the signing of the Oslo Accords and if Arafat had accepted the offer that was on the table in 2000.

And I wonder what the economy of both Israel and the West Bank would be like if Israel had ever acted in good faith by freezing and then dismantling settlements, by ending the occupation and by allowing the Palestinians a true state with control of their lives and resources as opposed to a bantu.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 16 September 2004 03:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please, enlighten me, tell me how.

Example one: Amhed want to take is fruit to market. Ahmed must add an extra four hours to his journey time to compensate for the long line ups at Israeli checkpoints. Also, Ahemd's customers are similarly inconvenievence, some just give up and go home.

Ahmed is very tired and irritable all the time, because feeding the family is so difficult. He gets angry at the kids. Ahmed has developed a drinking problem and is hanging out with a bad bunch of people, but whom have money because of their 'connections.' Ahmed begins to do some things for these people, taking packages around town. He doesn't ask what is in the packages.

Later Ahmed is in the wrong place at the wrong time and is blown to smithereens by the IDF. Fatima now has 4 kids and no husband, and she can not both go to the market with the oranges and pick them, even though the kids work real hard at picking them. The oldest, Maan, is very angry all the time because Ahmed has been blown up, and starts hanging out with a bad youth gang.

The family goes even deeper into debt.

Three years later Maan, is shot by the IDF just before he is about to blow himself at an Israeli checkpoint. His family is compensated for the loss by the men with 'connections' and Fatima gets a widows pension, and the family debts are paid off.

[ 16 September 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 16 September 2004 03:45 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please, enlighten me, tell me how.

You call yourself "Tory" and you don't even understand how impediments to market, even physical impediments, are hramful to economies and you don't understand how removing such impediments would immediately improve market access and thereby immediatley improve the economic environment?

All I can say is that you conservatives must praise God for the media because without them no one would believe you had a whit of economic sense among all of you.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 16 September 2004 04:06 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
...and by BTW, the Israeli economy would also be doing much better were it not for Netanyahu and Sharon's ham-fisted policies etc...
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 16 September 2004 04:37 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Agreed.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 16 September 2004 05:55 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:

huzzah? Is this a warp zone thread?


Stockholm has a habit of only standing firm for those things which affect him directly. I am, of course, firmly pro-SSM.


And Stockholm, you are blaming the victims if you think fighting for one's rights and the rights of one's community are subject to your own perspective. Essentially, your false choice would never be presented you had not there been those for whom the whole notion of quietly accepting social norms for economic security had been unacceptable, and so declared their homosexuality at great personal cost . . . because every life has dignity, and we are all equal.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 17 September 2004 12:42 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Stockholm has a habit of only standing firm for those things which affect him directly.

If that were true then i would vote Conservative in order to get lower taxes. I pay the highest marginal tax rate. I'd save money if Stephen Harper were PM, but instead I'm NDP out of the goodness of my heart.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 September 2004 01:18 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
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posted 17 September 2004 01:22 AM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
Is that what I think it is?
From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 17 September 2004 06:32 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post

Al-Q, you SLAY me!!!!


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 September 2004 08:20 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 17 September 2004 08:34 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And I thought my Bananas were good.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 18 September 2004 06:07 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

You call yourself "Tory" and you don't even understand how impediments to market, even physical impediments, are hramful to economies and you don't understand how removing such impediments would immediately improve market access and thereby immediatley improve the economic environment?

All I can say is that you conservatives must praise God for the media because without them no one would believe you had a whit of economic sense among all of you.


No, no, you don't understand. Markets have nothing to do with physical reality. They are a transcendent, magical, mystical phenomenon. Regulations and taxes can stop them from operating well, but physical barriers, lack of infrastructure, and death or imprisonment of the market actors are irrelevant because markets operate on a sublime plane that such gross factors cannot touch.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged

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