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Author Topic: Back to Indirect Occupation?
Cueball
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posted 13 September 2004 02:19 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is nothing very complicated or mysterious about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Never trust those who present it as an extremely complex issue, with endless political, historical, religious and cultural repercussions, on which you cannot take an informed stand without a Ph.D. in history and three decades of political activity for AIPAC. It's quite simple: the Arab states and the Palestinians have in fact acknowledged Israel's right to exist in peace, if it withdraws from the occupied Palestinian territories taken in 1967; whereas Israel wants to keep these territories, though it doesn't quite know how. The conflict is as simple as that.


Occupation – Direct vs. Indirect


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
JBG
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posted 13 September 2004 02:34 AM      Profile for JBG     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Subject to a "right of return" to Israel proper, however. This would eventually destroy Israel as a Jewish state.
From: Harrison, New York | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 13 September 2004 01:48 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have read that Israel gets 40% of its water from the occupied territories. No source was given for the statement, so I do not know if it is true. It would certainly explain Israel's reluctance leave the territories.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 September 2004 03:29 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:
I have read that Israel gets 40% of its water from the occupied territories. No source was given for the statement, so I do not know if it is true. It would certainly explain Israel's reluctance leave the territories.
Without sources it is at best conjecture at worst propaganda.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 13 September 2004 03:44 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Le monde diplomatique:

quote:
According to the World Bank statistics 90 % of the water in the West Bank is used for Israel’s benefit and the Palestinians have to make do with the remaining 10 %. The consequent difference in consumption levels can be seen from the following figures for annual consumption per capita :

Israel : 375 cubic metres

Gaza Strip and West Bank : 115 cubic metres

[snip]

Israel draws a third of its drinking water from three large water tables located wholly or partly in the West Bank :

The first starts in the Palestinian Hebron area and extends into Israel up to the Mediterranean coast ;

The second stretches from the Arab town of Jenin to the Mt Gilboa area in Israel ;

The eastern part is situated in the Jordan valley, in the Jordanian frontier region.



From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 September 2004 03:49 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Next line of MacArguement, will be a MacQuibble: Does 90% of the WB water actually account for 40% of Israels water supply? Or some such thing. Give me a fuckin MacBreak.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 13 September 2004 03:52 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That came as news to you, did it, Mac?

Anyway, Contrarian: I think you've got your answer.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 13 September 2004 03:53 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nice reference, pogge. When looking at any land dispute, be sure to consider what resources are there and who benefits from them. Demonizing one side of a dispute is a way of distracting from what the fight is really about.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 September 2004 03:54 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arabs want to drive Israelis into the sea . . . Without sources it is at best conjecture at worst propaganda.
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 13 September 2004 04:11 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball has the source/author of your orignal post been subject to Macpproval?
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 September 2004 04:35 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you wish to make fun and act as bully children be my guest.

Water tables and water useage is a complicated formula. I would prefer to see the formula as presented by published surveys which I am trying to find.

Nonetheless gloating is for school children not babblers.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 13 September 2004 04:43 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post

From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 September 2004 04:45 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As I said,gloating is for those who have not matured to a level of understanding that most adults gain with sensitivity, experience and time.

Hinterland please let us know when you get there.

[ 13 September 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 September 2004 04:46 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Water Consumption: A Growing Problem in Agriculture

Human Appropriation of the World's Fresh Water Supply

The above two URLs seem to be good overviews of the difficulties related to human water consumption, specifically with respect to balancing conflicting demands on water from agriculture, industry and individuals.

Ministry of Foreign Affairs: Water Economy

Israel's Chronic Water Problem

B'Tselem: Thirsty for a Solution: The Water Shortage in the Occupied Territories and its Resolution in the Final Status Agreement

Report from the Field: Perceptions of Water Use in the Arava Valley of Israel and Jordan

The above four URLs all give perspectives on water consumption issues specifically with respect to Israel and the Occupied Territories.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 13 September 2004 05:04 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that if one wishes to act as moderator they should hope that they are in fact a moderator not just a school-marm babbler lacking a sense of humour and humility.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 September 2004 05:06 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scout your warm insights are always welcome here.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 13 September 2004 05:19 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am certain the welcome is not yours to give.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 13 September 2004 05:22 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scout, you moderate these boards all the geedee time. I love you, but dude. Pot, kettle, and all that.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 13 September 2004 05:36 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Scout, you moderate these boards all the geedee time. I love you, but dude. Pot, kettle, and all that.

Not reccently around this forum.

I have kept my yap shut as requested by Michelle a scant few weeks ago to control the disputes rocking this forum. Any issues I have taken staight to the "Moderator" as asked to the forum on whole.

Unlike Macabee?

Care to take him to task?

In fact I have avoided Macabee like the poison he is since Michelle's request.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 September 2004 05:41 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Poison...nice
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 13 September 2004 05:44 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes Macabee, poison, that's what careless accusations of anti-semtisim are. And that has been your stock and trade around here for years.

Deny it, I love knowing you're a liar.

[ 13 September 2004: Message edited by: Scout ]


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 September 2004 05:49 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Poison, liar...you seem to feel that this board is your personal territory to throw slanders around.

But as the Jewish new year arrives I want to wish you a sweet, happy and healthy year to come. May your name continue to be inscribed in the book of life.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 13 September 2004 05:54 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 September 2004 05:59 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your welcome
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 September 2004 06:12 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
May I take a moment to point out that while it is raining in Vancouver, and that I am fortunate to live in a city where the climate is this rainy (meaning that for most of the year the watersheds are full, and there is consequently no water shortages), very few people in the world are so blessed and it would do well to focus our attention on the very real water shortages that face the Occupied Territories.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 13 September 2004 06:13 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks DrConway, good references. A good source on water issues in Canada is Dr. David Schindler of U of Alberta. For instance, a profile by Andrew Nikiforuk: Nature Canada article

I'm not sure if I did the url thing right, but a google search will find him.


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 September 2004 07:03 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But as the Jewish new year arrives I want to wish you a sweet, happy and healthy year to come. May your name continue to be inscribed in the book of life.


Given the sarcastic nature of this exchange, this statement has the tenor of a mafioso death threat.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 September 2004 07:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I liked the conclusion of HaCohen's editorial:

quote:
The peace camp, in Israel and worldwide, must be careful not to fall into the Oslo trap once again. An indirect occupation is as bad as a direct one, and the peace camp should neither trust Sharon's new image nor support trading direct occupation for an indirect one. Instead of quoting Sharon's nice but empty words, his actual atrocious deeds should be exposed. Otherwise we might wake up once again, too late, to discover that while we were supporting Sharon's vague promises, his actions prepared the ground for further decades of bloodshed and hatred.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 13 September 2004 07:07 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rosh Hashana greetings go in Body and Soul! And are OBLIGED by babble law to incorporate foodie thread drift. It is still a bit early to get started, no? Although I suppose recipes could be useful in advance.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 September 2004 07:08 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Macabee:
----------
But as the Jewish new year arrives I want to wish you a sweet, happy and healthy year to come. May your name continue to be inscribed in the book of life.
----------

Given the sarcastic nature of this exchange, this statement has the tenor of a mafioso death threat.


I don't think it really means much anyway, considering that anyone's being in the book of life or out of it is meaningless in light of the fact that I do not believe in God.

Now, a mafioso death threat would be along the lines of, "Say. You got a nice car at your place. Shame if anything happened to it."


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 13 September 2004 07:08 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Given the sarcastic nature of this exchange, this statement has the tenor of a mafioso death threat

As one of Ernest Bramah's characters said: "May swift promotion overtake your righteous footsteps and lead you to a more worthy sphere of usefulness."


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 13 September 2004 07:37 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Given the sarcastic nature of this exchange, this statement has the tenor of a mafioso death threat.



That is a crass and stupid comment. Firstly it can be seen as ethnospecific and discriminatory against Italians more importantly it is so against Babble policy . How dare you even suggest that any Babble member would issue a DEATH Threat against another Babbler. It is absolutely evil of you.

I will report this directly to the babble moderators.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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Babbler # 4795

posted 13 September 2004 07:47 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

That is a crass and stupid comment. Firstly it can be seen as ethnospecific and discriminatory against Italians more importantly it is so against Babble policy . How dare you even suggest that any Babble member would issue a DEATH Threat against another Babbler. It is absolutely evil of you.

I will report this directly to the babble moderators.


You must'a been a real PILL when you were a kid, Macabee...

Wait.... "when you were a kid"??? What am I SAYING???



From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 13 September 2004 07:48 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Oh, that's rich, Macabee. You made a baseless accusation that a comment made earlier in this thread could be construed as "propaganda". You derailed the thread with this (after that, it became all about you), thus directly causing the degeneration of this topic. Worse, you didn't even have the grace to moderate your accusation once it was pointed out to you that the contentious water situation in Israel/Palestine is in fact common knowledge, and not propaganda.

[ 13 September 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 13 September 2004 08:13 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ye Gods, Mac. Don't you ever just roll your eyes and get on with life? I mean, I can just see going for coffee with you if the counter didn't have Sugar Twin; you'd threaten to sue the company on behalf of diabetics everywhere!

Macabee, friend of ambitious mole-hills everywhere.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 13 September 2004 08:17 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ps: If you think that a comment regarding the actions of the mafioso in particular reflects upon Italians generally, I begin to understand your thin-skinnedness regarding anything to do with Zionism: You are not capable of making distinctions.

One could wish you would extend such sensitivity towards Palestinians re: collective punishment, but I won't put my back out praying for it.

Have a cool cup of water and calm down, Mac.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 September 2004 09:15 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That is a crass and stupid comment. Firstly it can be seen as ethnospecific and discriminatory against Italians more importantly it is so against Babble policy . How dare you even suggest that any Babble member would issue a DEATH Threat against another Babbler. It is absolutely evil of you.
I will report this directly to the babble moderators.


Associating Mafiosos with you is an ethnic slur against Italians. ok?!

I get it. You are a clown.

I am glad that you have assured us all that your statement should be taken at face value, and did not contain any of the sarcastic overtones of the exchange between you and Scout. Therefore, in same tenor of your well wishing, I will apologize for misconstruing your intent.

Term of the day: Macabizing Consent.

[ 13 September 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 13 September 2004 09:45 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You guys are letting him do it again. The thread is about the occupation, not about Macabee's professional bait-and-switch routine.
Stop.
Feeding.
It.

He does this every single Palestine thread: He (or they) says something to gain everyone's attention away from the discussion issue, and directs it onto the made-for-Babble character, Macabee, which is designed to attract abuse. We know he is a professional dissembler and apologist for Israel, so let's not let him steer the boat.

We see the same tactics from the Republicans.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 13 September 2004 10:21 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
O.K. Given that Israel gets much of its water from the occupied territories, and assuming that global warming will increase drought in the area, is there a chance in hell that Israel will ever give up control of the water-producing lands?
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 September 2004 10:38 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That is a crass and stupid comment. Firstly it can be seen as ethnospecific and discriminatory against Italians...

Speaking of being ethnocentric, aren't you forgetting about Bugsy Siegel, Lepke Buchalter and Meyer "We're bigger than U.S. Steel" Lansky?

And let's not forget the Irish.

I know, I know, but the thread's a shambles anyway...


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 13 September 2004 10:47 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Over here, OK?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 13 September 2004 11:05 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good grief.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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