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Author Topic: Anti Semitism in the Arab World
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 06 August 2004 02:29 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How prevelent is Anti Semitism in the Arab world? I have heard it said that Many middle eastern dictators(including Arafat) use Isreal as a scapegoat in order to distract the populations they rule over, and that in order to achieve this goal they actively promote anti-Semitism through the state medias of their various countries in much the same way that Fox promotes anti Arabism in the United States. Is this true?

[ 06 August 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 06 August 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 06 August 2004 02:35 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, they do use anti-Semitism. However, the more pertinent question is whether the use of anti-Semitism causes rejection of Israel while supporting dictatorships, or whether the dictatorships are simply trying to survive an existing rejection of Israel by making use of demagogic anti-Semitism. I believe it is the latter.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 06 August 2004 03:26 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
Yes, they do use anti-Semitism. However, the more pertinent question is whether the use of anti-Semitism causes rejection of Israel while supporting dictatorships, or whether the dictatorships are simply trying to survive an existing rejection of Israel by making use of demagogic anti-Semitism. I believe it is the latter.

Do you believe that if Isreal ended the occupation, they would no longer need to survive by spreading anti-Jewish sentiment?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 06 August 2004 03:34 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It depends on what you mean by occupation. The basic feeling since the winds of Zionism were first noticed in the Middle East is that the whole thing is an occupation. So it depends on how many people accept the 1967 borders as legitimate borders, given that the sentiment is that there should be no Zionist state. There's no way to tell this in advance of an agreement.

If people accept the borders, then anti-Semitism may decline. But this may take a very long time. Anti-Semitism has become too convenient a tool--leaders do not have to invent a new enemy, they can just use the old one. At the same time, the usefulness of anti-Semitism may decline, since the situation is different.

Actually, if anti-Semitism declines in usefulness due to a settlement, then the dictators will have less to justify their rule. Consequently, they may become more unstable. So many dictators simultaneously require the conflict to exist, at the same time fearing the destabilization caused by the conflict. They are riding a tiger.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 06 August 2004 03:58 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actually, if anti-Semitism declines in usefulness due to a settlement, then the dictators will have less to justify their rule. Consequently, they may become more unstable. So many dictators simultaneously require the conflict to exist, at the same time fearing the destabilization caused by the conflict. They are riding a tiger.



But if the conflict does end, wouldn't it be in the best interest of the dictators to ignore it and just keep producing anti Israel propaganda?
As you said, they have used it to their advantage for the last couple of decades, why stop now? I doubt very much that Rupert Murdoch and his corporate drones will stop demonizing the Arab world if the 50 years war comes to an end. Why should we expect Middle Eastern despots to be anymore fair-minded?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 06 August 2004 07:11 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure, they'd do it. The question is whether the propaganda would maintain its potency. And that depends on an unknown: what kind of resolution there is to the problem, and whether people accept that resolution.

For instance, in order to prevent the resolution from being accepted, they might step up propaganda...but then that might destabilize the situation to an extent that they might not survive.

I think most ME rulers would like to get rid of this tightrope ASAP, but it first requires them to come up with some other easier justification for their rule.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 06 August 2004 07:15 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well CMOT there are never any sure things. But let's give a little context, shall we? 100 years ago, would anyone have thought that Europe's imperial powers would be united in a democratic union, allies on the international stage? With all the blood and ill will that centuries (not mere decades) of warfare had bred, not to mention two World Wars, who would have thought France and Germany would be on the same side and enjoying peaceful democratic relations?

Times change. Hatreds fade. Most people, given the chance, would rather go on living than not.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 20 December 2004 04:15 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It depends on what you mean by occupation.

Sorry. I didn't phrase the question properly. I should have said if Isreal ended the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, would Arab leaders continue to use anti-Semitism as a means to control the populations they govern?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 20 December 2004 06:06 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
if Isreal ended the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, would Arab leaders continue to use anti-Semitism as a means to control the populations they govern?
I don't think that anti-Semitism in the Arab world was invented by Arab leaders to foment hatred amongst their subjects. It existed long before the state of Israel existed and before Israel won the 1967 war. That's why I think that the answer implied by your quote below is spot on. The propaganda wouldn't stop completely because the hatred is not solely based on the existance of Israel or whatever is perceived as "the occupation."
quote:
But if the conflict does end, wouldn't it be in the best interest of the dictators to ignore it and just keep producing anti Israel propaganda?


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 20 December 2004 07:10 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've heard stories that throughout the Arab world elementary school text books depicts Jews as Die Sturmer-like monsters with horns growing out of the sides of their heads. Apparently many Arabs who have occasion to meet a Jewish person for the first time are flabbergasted that they have no horns and no tail etc...
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 20 December 2004 07:44 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't think that anti-Semitism in the Arab world was invented by Arab leaders to foment hatred amongst their subjects. It existed long before the state of Israel existed and before Israel won the 1967 war. That's why I think that the answer implied by your quote below is spot on. The propaganda wouldn't stop completely because the hatred is not solely based on the existance of Israel or whatever is perceived as "the occupation."

You misunderstand me. I firmly believe that anti-Semitism can be extinguished in the Arab world. Islam is not a anti-Semitic religion, nor are Arabs genetically predisposed to anti-Jewish hatred. the moors proved that when they invaded spain. The Saphards lived quite well while they were being ruled by the Arabs.
Because of this, I think the question that should be asked is not can anti-Semitism the eliminated in places like Saudi Arabia and Egypt but how can it be eliminated?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 20 December 2004 08:02 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
I firmly believe that anti-Semitism can be extinguished in the Arab world. Islam is not a anti-Semitic religion, nor are Arabs genetically predisposed to anti-Jewish hatred.
No, of course they are not genetically predisposed to Jew hatred. But, I think it would be fair to say that they are culturally predisposed to Jew hatred (note: predisposed does not mean "destined to become", just "more likely to become"). And, there are particularly hateful depictions of Jews in the Koran. But, just like other religions have undergone reformation and have learned to "accentuate the positive", I belive that Islam can do that too. I just hope it happens much sooner than later. Although, I also recognize that there is quite a distance to go.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
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posted 20 December 2004 08:30 PM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oy vey, what ARE we talking about here?

In fact, on reflection I'm not even going to attempt to articulate whatever elaborations lay behind my profoundly GRIM kneejerk response to these naively ridiculous remarks....except to say that some people seem to be talking through their hats. Phonicidal I'll lay odds knows diddly about the 'Arab world' except what he's seen on tv, and the prior comment about 'extinguish'ing antiSemitism in the Arab world has a really sinister ring about it.

Chills the blood, it really does.


From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
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posted 20 December 2004 08:38 PM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now here is an example of anti-Semitism, to put this blithering conversation into perspective:

[ 20 December 2004: Message edited by: Merowe ]


From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 20 December 2004 08:42 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Merowe:
Phonicidal I'll lay odds knows diddly about the 'Arab world' except what he's seen on tv, and the prior comment about 'extinguish'ing antiSemitism in the Arab world has a really sinister ring about it.
What's so sinister about "'extinguish'ing antiSemitism", whether it's in the Arab world or anywhere else? Are you denying that anti-Semitism exists and is promoted, in official and unofficial capacities, in Arab and Muslim countries?

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
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posted 20 December 2004 08:44 PM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ok, technologically challenged that I am, here is the picture address:

http://www.arab7.com/up/file/1103589658643.jpg

can't seem to quote it...


From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 20 December 2004 08:50 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Merowe:
here is the picture address
Other than muddying the waters with irrelevant content in an attempt to derail the conversation, what the hell does that photo (assuming it's genuine) prove about anti-Semitism in the Arab world? That it's justified?

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
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posted 20 December 2004 08:51 PM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
wouldn't deny it, but I think it's a sort of cart before the horse sort of game we have here...as long as there is palpable evidence of socalled 'Jewish' malfeasance in socalled 'Arab' heartland, Arab politicians will exploit it.
From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
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posted 20 December 2004 08:53 PM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
echo effect here...no, the photo possibly identifies a common enemy, western imperialism, call it what you will...
From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
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posted 20 December 2004 08:54 PM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
and I submit, you're doing a fine job of muddying the waters without my two cents
From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
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posted 20 December 2004 08:57 PM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
to clarify, this comment:

wouldn't deny it, but I think it's a sort of cart before the horse sort of game we have here...as long as there is palpable evidence of socalled 'Jewish' malfeasance in socalled 'Arab' heartland, Arab politicians will exploit it.

was posted to follow Phoniciwhatzits of 8:42 and not 8:50


From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 20 December 2004 09:26 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In fact, on reflection I'm not even going to attempt to articulate whatever elaborations lay behind my profoundly GRIM kneejerk response to these naively ridiculous remarks....except to say that some people seem to be talking through their hats.

My good God Almighty! It is not, repeat NOT my intention to give support to the rightist garbage spewed by Phonicidal and Stock. It is my intention to figure out under which conditions the Arab leaders would stop using anti Jewish propaganda. Since Merowe seems to be a sensible left-leaning, non-racist fellow and not prone to the" they will drive us into the sea" syndrome I'll ask him: do you believe that a withdrawal from the occupied territories would be enough to end the anti semitic propaganda that seems to be prevalent in many Arab countries? Would a one state solution (the one I am currently pulling for) be the only way of stopping it?

[ 20 December 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 20 December 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 20 December 2004 09:36 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
do you believe that a withdrawal from the occupied territories would be enough to end the anti semitic propaganda that seems to be prevalent in many Arab countries? Would a one state solution (the one I am currently pulling for) be the only way of stopping it?
Neither of those events alone could eliminate anti-Semitism in the Arab world. To the extent to which hatred (almost ANY kind of hatred) is learned over a long period of time, I submit that it would have to "unlearned" over a long period of time. And, I see no reason wht that couldn't happen in teh Arab world independent of the situation with the Palestinians and Israel.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
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posted 20 December 2004 10:25 PM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
...well, how long has this 'Arab' 'hatred' of their fellow Semites been around exactly? Beyond the usual sort of dimwitted racist grumbling you can hear on the fringes of any multicultural society? I suspect it's a bit of a ghost; I mean, I'm too tired to get into a scholarly about it, but some historical perspective might be useful here, and I can't think of any Islamic parallels to Russian pogroms or the European racism, though I'm sure there were elements of it around.

It's more a question of, how big a fookin' deal do you want to make of it, really? So what, if you look closely you can find examples of ignorance in various 'Arabic' cultures, quelle surprise, one hardly needs to venture so far afield, try opening one of the Toronto dailies sometime...

I think my point is, it's completely irrelevant to discuss it independently of the current dysfunction between Israel and its neighbours, it's like discussing the smoke without addressing the fire. That's what I find so ridiculous about this discussion, it's bullshit abstraction. How CAN you talk about something as fluffy as 'antisemitism' in the context of the ongoing unpleasantnesses of military occupation?

I mean, I'm sure you've had all the data thrown at you before, and it clearly bounced right off, I don't know why I waste my breath...what is it, in Gaza, .5 percent of the population, the 'Jewish''Semitic' settlers, own 20 percent of the territory while the other 99.5 'Semitic' if you will indigenous population crowd into 50 year old refugee camps and you're going to sit there and talk about...'anti-Semitism'?

And, apologies to CMOT, I clearly misconstrued:

one secular state all the way, and a fundamentally different, probably non western materialist perspective to go with it;

I suppose I just found your initial question a little careless.

To address historical 'antisemitism' in the currently so-defined 'Arab world', I just wonder, to what end?

Unless there is a case to be made that there is some daunting historical burden there, some hangover which plays a role in the present conflict, which i do not believe is the case.

You know, people of The Book and all that...

[ 20 December 2004: Message edited by: Merowe ]


From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 20 December 2004 10:38 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I read somewhere that true anti-semetism arrived in the Muslim world just after the crusades when the Jews were enticed by Christendom to mount uprisings in their protectorates in Spain-France and other occupied areas of Europe. They were promised amnesty by the Churches. So, uprisings like Narbonnes occured. The Jewish were promised a kingdom if they killed all the Muslims in the city, so they did it. The kingdom didn't come to fruition, the only thing that happened was the burning of some Moorish libraries.

That and modern anti-semetism had actually been in part seeded by Germany, and Russia. To this day Protocols of the Elders of Zion is circulated in the Middle East.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 20 December 2004 11:43 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My good God Almighty! It is not, repeat NOT my intention to give support to the rightist garbage spewed by Phonicidal and Stock.

Who is calling who "rightist". I'm a leftist - I am a social democract. I just happen to take a hard line against anti-semitism - once upon a time that was considered a leftwing sentiment, not a rightwing one!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 20 December 2004 11:50 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Papal_Bull:
The Jewish were promised a kingdom if they killed all the Muslims in the city, so they did it.
Besides sounding false, that also sounds dangerous. It implies that Jews are at fault for anti-Semitism. I am not saying that's what you intended to mean. But, somebody interested in demonizing Jews and blaming them for their own misfortubes could easily take it that way. Merowe's arguments seem to have the same type of strain of blaming Jews/Israel for anti-Semitism. I'm a bit less optimistic about his inyentions than I am about yours.

Anyway, anti-semitism in the Muslim/Arab world could probably be tracked back to the birth of Isaac and the implicit conflict between him and Ishmael. Or, it could at least be tracked back to the first time that story was told. Or, you could probably also track it back to the time of the Koran. I must admit, I'm not so sure why it is so important to you where it came from.


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 21 December 2004 05:45 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're an interesting one, Phonocidal. I haven't quite figured out what your game is, here. You seem like a slightly-above-average troll, but every once in a while you do get a point in edgewise, and I find that interesting. I'm not sure if you are wasting our time our your own.

This canard of "anti-Semitism on Babble" has got to stop, regardless. I don't care if it is Mac, Frac Tal, or this latest one. They have created such a poisonous atmosphere that it is impossible to discuss anything.

We deal with anti-Semites when they show up here, Phonocide. Quickly. You can do some searching through older threads if you want. Your twisted vision of the world would have it that leftists practice anti-Racism in all cases . . . except for Jews.

And it's a neat rhetorical trick you've got going, don't get me wrong; I understand why you use it so readily. It certainly is a get out of jail card for anything that might come up: Israeli settlements, house demolitions, the death of Palestinians in their own homes, etc. So long as you can blame the other side of being anti-Semitic, you don't have to worry about the moral cost of providing cover for such barbarism.

I hope, one day, you are able to look beyond your sneering indictments of people who are trying to bring about good in the world; I might also hope you drop your implicit claims to expertise on the Arab and Moslem worlds which are painfully misplaced. There is room yet, time yet, I think. For you. For all of us.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Woodnymph
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posted 21 December 2004 06:25 AM      Profile for Woodnymph     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As a little side note in what has clearly gone off track anyway:

I live in a Muslim country populated by Arabic decendents. When Arafat died, the national flags were lowered for three days and the local TV station re-broadcast all of the President's meetings and press conferences with Arafat. He's considered a "great friend and cousin" of the Maldivian people. But yet I routinely find Israeli products on the shelves of the grocery stores. I speak freely of visiting Israel with my neighbours; usually this is met with questions and not misconceptions or rants about "them damn Jews". "Arab World" is a broad concept - as broad as "Asian World". I think a disservice is made whenever all encompassing terms are used when the subject is really only a small portion of that term.


From: A little island on a big ocean | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 21 December 2004 07:18 AM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
You seem like a slightly-above-average troll, but every once in a while you do get a point in edgewise, and I find that interesting. I'm not sure if you are wasting our time our your own.
Err...Um...thanks, I guess .

I suspect I'm only wasting my own time. But, just to satisfy my curiosity, what would be the big payoff that would make it worth your while to debate with me? Why does anybody come to babble? Do they just enjoy pissing people off? Do they enjoy intellectual games? Do they feel a sense of superiority when they bash Israel and America? Are they trying to convince their debating partner that they are wrong and should repent for their sins? Are they looking for a pat on the back and afirmation of their own views? I suspect that there is a bit of everything here.

For me, I sometimes feel personally attacked when I perceive that Israel is being unfairly criticized. Sometimes I enjoy a bit of verbal jousting. Someimes I think that I can win somebody over, if not the person I'm debating with, maybe a lurker or two.[pschyoanlysis]I have a vivid imagination and sometimes I imagine that I'll meet some crazy lefty girl and we'll argue and argue and then have great make-up sex, like Dianne and Sam on Cheers.[/pschyoanlysis] Sometimes I just enjoy finding ways to say "fuck you" without actually saying it, but I always try to do it with a smile. Sometimes I debate for the benefit of entertaining others.[pschyoanlysis]I'm a Theatre major.[/pschyoanlysis]

There, I was honest. No game. Don't get me wrong, I like games except for when I don't.

quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
This canard of "anti-Semitism on Babble" has got to stop, regardless. I don't care if it is Mac, Frac Tal, or this latest one. They have created such a poisonous atmosphere that it is impossible to discuss anything.
[TANGENT]The word "canard" reminds me of the French version of "The Chicken Dance", Ithink it goes "C'est la danse des canards...quack, quack, quck, quack[/TANGENT]

I am VERY careful with explicit accusations of anti-Semitism because I do consider it a very serious thing. But, on a message board like this, where technology sometimes makes nuances of tone hard to convey, where some people intentionally conceal deeply rooted and unpopular beliefs, and where some people are simply not as proficient as others in expressing themselves, it's not always easy to grasp the full mening of some comments. So, suspicions of anti-Semitism are left hanging in the air.

quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Your twisted vision of the world would have it that leftists practice anti-Racism in all cases . . . except for Jews.
Nope. I recognize that both anti-Racism AND anti-Semitism are equal opportunity sports. There are even Jewish anti-Semites (yes, I did say that) and right-wing anti-racists.

quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
It certainly is a get out of jail card for anything that might come up: Israeli settlements, house demolitions, the death of Palestinians in their own homes, etc. So long as you can blame the other side of being anti-Semitic, you don't have to worry about the moral cost of providing cover for such barbarism.
I'd like to think that I would call barbarism "barbarism" no matter who the barber is . I'm not interested in splitting hairs , but sometimes the criticism is so out of whack that anti-Semitism seems to be the most logical motivation. But, it is often not intentional and/or tangible enough to demonstrate.

So, like I said, I'm opposed to freely distributing claims of anti-Semitism. Some people use it as a shield when they shouldn't. But, you must also recognize that some genuine anti-Semites use as a shield the claim that they are simply the victims of Jews crying wolf. And, it's often difficult to tell who's doing what because we can't always tell who is and is not an anti-Semite from what they write or say or do.

quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
I hope, one day, you are able to look beyond your sneering indictments of people who are trying to bring about good in the world;
I respect people who try to bring good to the world. And, that's another reason why I hang around here. But, in discussions of the Arab-Israeli conflict, I want to help well intentioned, but sometimes ignorant, lefties to see how some of their attempts at "helping" actually do more harm than good to everybody involved.

quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
I might also hope you drop your implicit claims to expertise on the Arab and Moslem worlds which are painfully misplaced. There is room yet, time yet, I think. For you. For all of us.
I don't claim to be an expert on Musims or Arabs. And, I recognize that most people on babble probabaly don't share many of my views. But, my views are my views until they change. Then they are still mine, but different. The only problem is that I'm stubborn. So, if somebody isn't willing or able to work hard on me, they should give up. And, some do (that's usually the point at which I'm told to "fuck off", or somebody reads my mind and tels me "I know what you really mean").

But, I've discussed these issues an awful lot, enough to get a good idea about what I really feel, believe, and think. So, I sometimes skip the more facile explanations and go right to the more complicated stuff. I admit, that occasionally leaves gaps in comprehension. But, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt before I go the baby-step route.


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 21 December 2004 11:05 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Seems to me that phonicidal has explained himself and the issues that many pro-israel supporters struggle with here. Thanks for that.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 21 December 2004 01:32 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah yes: If you complain about Israeli human rights abuses, you must be an antisemite. I'm really not surprised that you'd agree with this lie, Macabee, given that you used to repeat it so often. I'm also not surprised that our latest friend would invoke such a lie. Life is, after all, fairly predictable.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 21 December 2004 02:20 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You will excuse me BRI if Im having trouble here but can you show me anywhere on Babble where phonicidal actually said such a thing. Is it possible you are wrong? Im sure its not wilfull.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 21 December 2004 03:59 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm not interested in splitting hairs , but sometimes the criticism (of Israel - ed.) is so out of whack that anti-Semitism seems to be the most logical motivation.

Why, in this very thread, Sherlock.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 21 December 2004 05:11 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Point of interest, what do you perceive as fair criticism of Israel?


quote:
Originally posted by Phonicidal:
For me, I sometimes feel personally attacked when I perceive that Israel is being unfairly criticized.

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 21 December 2004 05:52 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Point of interest, what do you perceive as fair criticism of Israel?
I'm not very good at that game. There are so many legitimate criticisms that it's like restaurants I like to eat at. I often have trouble choosing the one I feel like at a given moment. I inherit this from my dad.

So, let's do it the other way around. You give me one example at a time and I'll respond. I'm not ducking your question. But, if we're going to really get into the nitty gritty, I want to do it in an organizaed way so that there are no misunderstandings. And, I'm wagering your mind is more organized than mine. So, I'm letting you drive.


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 21 December 2004 05:59 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:
Why, in this very thread, Sherlock.
Let's parse that out:
quote:
I'm not interested in splitting hairs , but sometimes
"Sometimes", as in not always, or even "most of the time", just "sometimes."
quote:
the criticism (of Israel - ed.) is so out of whack
Which criticism? I don't specify. But, in the previous sentence I stipulate that "I would call barbarism "barbarism" no matter who the barber is." I admitted that some acts perpetrated by Israelis are barbaric. But, I also admit that sometimes the acts are called barbaric when they are not. That's when the criticism is "so out of whack."
quote:
that anti-Semitism seems to be the most logical motivation.
"Seems", a qualiier based on perception.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 21 December 2004 06:37 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israeli spy networks have infiltrated and spied upon the USA and Canada in much greater amounts than any other country or peoples. So much so that security has been eroded.

Israel has unfairing and illegally encroached upon Palestinian land.

Israel's current government is comitting autrocities upon the Palistinian peoples.

Just 3 for right now, even though I believe your non-response is because you do not believe Israel has done anything wrong.


quote:
Originally posted by Phonicidal:
I'm not very good at that game. There are so many legitimate criticisms that it's like restaurants I like to eat at. I often have trouble choosing the one I feel like at a given moment. I inherit this from my dad.

So, let's do it the other way around. You give me one example at a time and I'll respond. I'm not ducking your question. But, if we're going to really get into the nitty gritty, I want to do it in an organizaed way so that there are no misunderstandings. And, I'm wagering your mind is more organized than mine. So, I'm letting you drive.



From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 21 December 2004 07:00 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Israeli spy networks have infiltrated and spied upon the USA and Canada in much greater amounts than any other country or peoples. So much so that security has been eroded.
That's not specific enough, so I'll break it down.
  • I agree that there are Israeli spies in North America.
  • I wouldn't know about how many, and neither would you.
  • I don't agree that security is eroded by this. I don't expect that Israeli spies would be spying on the American or Canadian governments. They may be spying on terrorist groups that operate in the USA, Canada, and Israel. But, neither of us have any wayto know that. So, anyting more would be speculation.
  • Israel has to be concerned with its own security before anybody else's.

quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Israel has unfairing and illegally encroached upon Palestinian land.
Again, not specific enough. You'd have to specify which land, when, and why. But, I can tell you that I would have rather seen the security fence follow the green line more closely. Although, I don't believe it will be the final border. So, I can't accept claims that the "encroachment" contitutes a "land grab."

quote:
Originally posted by remind:
Israel's current government is comitting autrocities upon the Palistinian peoples.
Again, too general. Give me an example of what you think is an "attrocity" and I can tell you if I agree or not. Be careful in yor submission to make sure that the "aatrocities" you put forward can be atributed to "Israel's current government."

Updated to add: This really should be in a new topic. It has nothing to do with anti-Semitism in the Arab world. If you want to continue, please create a new thread and post a link here. Thanks.

[ 21 December 2004: Message edited by: Phonicidal ]


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 21 December 2004 07:22 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Let's parse that out:

Oh, here we go. Whenever someone suggests parsing anything for meaning (as opposed to syntactic correctness, which is the only meaningful use of the term 'parse'), you know there's some major dissembling a-comin'...


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 21 December 2004 07:49 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was just going to say "weasel words". Potato, potato.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 21 December 2004 09:38 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks no thanks, it will continue here. But our security has been hurt here and Israel does not have a right to supercede our security concerns. Our concerns come before Israels within our own country and they have no right.

quote:
Originally posted by Phonicidal:
I don't agree that security is eroded by this. I don't expect that Israeli spies would be spying on the American or Canadian governments. They may be spying on terrorist groups that operate in the USA, Canada, and Israel. But, neither of us have any wayto know that. So, anyting more would be speculation.
Updated to add: This really should be in a new topic. It has nothing to do with anti-Semitism in the Arab world. If you want to continue, please create a new thread and post a link here. Thanks.

U.S. Police and Intelligence Hit by Spy Network
Charles R. Smith
Wednesday, Dec. 19, 2001
Spies Tap Police and Government Phones
In the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attack, the FBI has stumbled on the largest espionage ring ever discovered inside the United States. The U.S. Justice Department is now holding nearly 100 Israeli citizens with direct ties to foreign military, criminal and intelligence services.
The spy ring reportedly includes employees of two Israeli-owned companies that currently perform almost all the official wiretaps for U.S. local, state and federal law enforcement.
The U.S. law enforcement wiretaps, authorized by the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA), appear to have been breached by organized crime units working inside Israel and the Israeli intelligence service, Mossad.
Both Attorney General John Ashcroft and FBI Director Robert Mueller were warned on Oct. 18 in a hand-delivered letter from local, state and federal law enforcement officials. The warning stated, "Law enforcement's current electronic surveillance capabilities are less effective today than they were at the time CALEA was enacted."
The spy ring enabled criminals to use reverse wiretaps against U.S. intelligence and law enforcement operations. The illegal monitoring may have resulted in the deaths of several informants and reportedly spoiled planned anti-drug raids on crime syndicates.
Global Spy and Crime Network

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/12/18/224826.shtml

Details Emerge About Vast Alien Spy Network

Attorney General John Ashcroft’s office said the explosive story of an Israeli spy network of bogus art students operating across the United States (described in AFP on March 18 and March 24) is an “urban myth,” but other law enforcement officials say otherwise.

Exclusive to American Free Press
By Christopher Bollyn

The important details of a massive Israeli spy ring that operated across the United States—employing Israeli intelligence agents posing as “art students” to gain access to sensitive U.S. government offices, defense companies, and the private homes of employees of the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA)—are starting to emerge.
What has now become clear is that the agents and modus operandi of the ring were known by the highest levels of government and that policies were changed to counter the threat of Israeli surveillance through computer networks.
The explosive story of the Israeli spy ring, discovered operating in the United States last year, and the 61-page DEA task-force report that contained the details about this spy ring was first revealed in detail on March 4 by Intelligence Online (IO), a well-respected Internet news service based in Paris, France.
IO’s story elaborated in some respects on earlier findings by Carl Cameron of Fox News who referenced the “Israeli art students” as part of his much larger story (See AFP, Dec. 24, 2001 and Jan. 7/14, 2002).
The IO story was picked up by the leading French daily, Le Monde, and, in some respects, by the Associated Press, but was just as quickly dropped.
Referring to the reports, the March 15 issue of Forward, one of the oldest and most respected Jewish newspapers in America, commented that: “Despite angry denials by Israel and its American supporters, reports that Israel was conducting spying activities in the United States may have a grain of truth, the For ward has learned.” Forward commented smugly that: “Both the French and the Fox reports were dismissed by Israel and its supporters and received limited coverage in the American media.”
LeMonde and Fox (as well as IO) suggested the likelihood that these Israeli operatives were spying on Arab terrorist cells operating in the United States and almost certainly had advance knowledge about the impending 9-11 attacks—a theory that inflamed Israel and its American supporters. The Associated Press was careful not to mention any of this aspect of the story.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/03_25_02/Vast_Alien_Spy_Network/vast_alien_spy_network.html


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 21 December 2004 09:52 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So now we have acusations of Israeli spying on canada. Some here are incredibly paranoid when it comes to anything to do with Israel. Can you point us to what drew you to a conclusion that Israel "spies" on Canada other than your anti-Israel animus.

Secondly, again phonicidal has you by the short hairs. He gets accused of labelling all anti-Israel speech as anti-Semitism. As per usual here, those that made the accusation cannot back it up.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 21 December 2004 10:10 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
So now we have acusations of Israeli spying on canada.
To clarify my post: I have no reason to doubt that Israel is spying in Canada. But, I don't believe that Israel is spying on Canada. Israel is an ally. And, if whatever spying Israel may be doing isn't hurting Canada, I don't see why it should be stopped.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 29 December 2004 05:31 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Parsing is done by a command interpreter. When any human claims to be "parsing" something, it usually implies a very rigid and inflexible interpretation of what they are about to "parse".

Just as computer command interpreters tend to be rather inflexible.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 December 2004 08:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Phonicidal:
To clarify my post: I have no reason to doubt that Israel is spying in Canada. But, I don't believe that Israel is spying on Canada. Israel is an ally. And, if whatever spying Israel may be doing isn't hurting Canada, I don't see why it should be stopped.

In what treaty is Canada and Israel's "alliance" identified. I have never heard of any.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 04 January 2005 02:57 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Although the difficulties pre-dated the illegal occupation of the palestine territories by Israel I believe that will always represent a very difficult aspect of the inter-faith relationship between the Jewish and Islamic communities. The human rights violations that are occuring against unarmed palestine civilians will always prompt anger and anxiety by their muslim brothers and sisters. The lack of resolve that exists, worldwide, to make Israel comply with International law is disheartening. Until this fundamental issue in the middle east reaches a permanent peaceful solution good relations will be elusive.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 January 2005 04:35 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And, if whatever spying Israel may be doing isn't hurting Canada, I don't see why it should be stopped.
]

How about real Canadians, using Canadian passports, who are suspected of being Israeli spies because of repeated use of forged or stolen Canadian passports by Israeli spies?

These dorks put us all in danger.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 04 January 2005 08:50 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:
Although the difficulties pre-dated the illegal occupation of the palestine territories by Israel I believe that will always represent a very difficult aspect of the inter-faith relationship between the Jewish and Islamic communities. The human rights violations that are occuring against unarmed palestine civilians will always prompt anger and anxiety by their muslim brothers and sisters. The lack of resolve that exists, worldwide, to make Israel comply with International law is disheartening. Until this fundamental issue in the middle east reaches a permanent peaceful solution good relations will be elusive.

Perhaps a good start might be a show of the world's indignation over abuses by other mid east countries towards their own citizens, Heck maybe we could see it here more consistantly. Lets name some of those abuses:

extreme homophobia
lack of a fair judical system
daily human rights abuses
discrimination against Christian minorities
intolerance of any political opposition

Anyone care to name more....?


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 04 January 2005 09:12 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, Macabee, we couldn't do that on babble.

As you know, most here on babble are paid cheerleaders for the House of Saud and Mr Ashcroft's outsourced torturers in Syria. We couldn't possibly say mean things about regimes like that, especially if they have close ties to the regime in Washington.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 04 January 2005 11:26 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Phomicidal has me by nothing, not even the short hairs. If you read the articles fully you would see mention of Canada in them.

Furthermore, I do not have a anti-Israel animus.
How come you cannot look clearly at the actions of the current Israeli government? Do you have an animus towards all who are not Jewish or Israeli because you choose to fail to see points are proven?

quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
So now we have acusations of Israeli spying on canada. Some here are incredibly paranoid when it comes to anything to do with Israel. Can you point us to what drew you to a conclusion that Israel "spies" on Canada other than your anti-Israel animus.

Secondly, again phonicidal has you by the short hairs. He gets accused of labelling all anti-Israel speech as anti-Semitism. As per usual here, those that made the accusation cannot back it up.



From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
salaam
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posted 04 January 2005 12:07 PM      Profile for salaam     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Stockholm: I've heard stories that throughout the Arab world elementary school text books depicts Jews as Die Sturmer-like monsters with horns growing out of the sides of their heads. Apparently many Arabs who have occasion to meet a Jewish person for the first time are flabbergasted that they have no horns and no tail etc...
Spreading false, hateful "stories" like this must be against the forum's policy. It like saying "I've heard stories of Jews that sprout horns on their heads" or something.
quote:
Phonicidal: But, I think it would be fair to say that they are culturally predisposed to Jew hatred
This is sickening. Why don't you be "fair" and say that "all non-Jews are culturally predisposed to Jew-hatred" or that "Jews are culturally predisposed to arousing hatered in non-Jews" like a proper Zionist? If most of the world wasn't predisposed to hating Jews then there would be no reason to have a Jewish-only state, wouldn't there? Is this talk really acceptable in this forum?

As for Arab dictators today, they will do whatever their western sponsors let them get away with. The continuing conflict is an integral part of the whole "middle-east" framework. If the conflict in Palestine is resolved somehow, then the region will be a very a different place than what exists now. The states existing today might not exist then and if they still did they might not survive for long.

[ 04 January 2005: Message edited by: salaam ]


From: exile | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 January 2005 12:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Everyone, please observe that this board tollerates this kind of statment, in regards to Muslims:

quote:
But, I think it would be fair to say that they are culturally predisposed to Jew hatred

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 04 January 2005 12:30 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by salaam:
This is sickening. Why don't you be "fair" and say that "all non-Jews are culturally predisposed to Jew-hatred" or that "Jews are culturally predisposed to arousing hatered in non-Jews" like a proper Zionist?
First, I don't believe that all non-Jews are predisposed to hating Jews. Second, suggesting that Jews are responsible for anti-Semitism, or that any race is responsible for others who hate them, is EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE. Thirdly, you don't seem to have a firm grasp of the definition of Zionism, which need not be tied to anti-Semitism. Fourth, you obviously missed this:
quote:
(note: predisposed does not mean "destined to become", just "more likely to become")
To deny that some Arab countries promote Jew hatred in their media and in some cultural institutions is just plain silly. That is what is meant by "culturally predisposed." When a culture fosters a particular belief, it's not so unreasonable to assert that people from said culture are "culturally predisposed" to that belief. It doesn't mean that Arabs automatically hate Jews. It means that some Arab states, formally or informally, teach their people to do so.

quote:
Originally posted by salaam:
As for Arab dictators today, they will do whatever their western sponsors let them get away with.
That is the cop-out of the century (litterally). Arabs need to take some responsibility for the horrible conditions that exist in many Arab countries. You may be right that the west bears some responsibility. But, if the Arab world is to emerge from the dark ages, they are going to have to find the strength to do much of the legwork on their own.

quote:
Originally posted by salaam:
If the conflict in Palestine is resolved somehow, then the region will be a very a different place than what exists now. The states existing today might not exist then and if they still did they might not survive for long.
An interesting theory. But, I have no clue what you're getting at. Sure the region will be different. But, which states will no longer exist? Which will be changed? How long should we expect this process to take after the conflict is resolved? And, what do you see as the best best resolution, the final deal?

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 January 2005 12:35 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
First, I don't believe that all non-Jews are predisposed to hating Jews.

No only apparently only Arab Muslims are "culturally predisposed toward Jew hatred" as you stated earlier.

quote:
Second, suggesting that Jews are responsible for anti-Semitism, or that any race is responsible for others who hate them, is EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE.

Which is exactly why he made this rhetorical sarcastic point. He was trying to show you how prejudiced sweeping statements such as Arabs are "culturally predisposed toward Jew hatred," really are.

[ 04 January 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
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posted 04 January 2005 12:37 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Everyone, please observe that this board tollerates this kind of statment, in regards to Muslims:
A baseless accusation. The quoted comment did not refer to Muslims. Furthermore, the quoted statement, in or outside of its context, is not malicious in the least.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 04 January 2005 12:42 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
To deny that some Arab countries promote Jew hatred in their media and in some cultural institutions is just plain silly. That is what is meant by "culturally predisposed." When a culture fosters a particular belief, it's not so unreasonable to assert that people from said culture are "culturally predisposed" to that belief. It doesn't mean that Arabs automatically hate Jews. It means that some Arab states, formally or informally, teach their people to do so.

For some perspective on this, note that there are at least 2 different threads on babble concerning the possibility of introducing "Sharia" Muslim tribunals to Canadian civil cases. In both threads, much of the criticism of these tribunals is predicated on the assertion that Muslim society, or parts of it, are "disposed" to being patriarchal or sexist. Nobody's putting it as boldly as Phoni, but that's at the crux of the criticism.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 January 2005 12:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A baseless accusation. The quoted comment did not refer to Muslims. Furthermore, the quoted statement, in or outside of its context, is not malicious in the least.

Oh then, who are the people you are saying are "culturally predisposed towards Jew hatred?" The paragraph containing the statement refers to the Qu'ran so I assumed you meant Muslims. Perhaps you only mean Arabs? Is that it?

[ 04 January 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 January 2005 12:48 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For some perspective on this, note that there are at least 2 different threads on babble concerning the possibility of introducing "Sharia" Muslim tribunals to Canadian civil cases. In both threads, much of the criticism of these tribunals is predicated on the assertion that Muslim society, or parts of it, are "disposed" to being patriarchal or sexist. Nobody's putting it as boldly as Phoni, but that's at the crux of the criticism.


Well in my opinion all societies are disposed to to be patriarchal and sexist. The institutions and cultural systems through wich sexism is enforced may differ, but there is nothing particullarly sexist about Islam. Christian texts can also be used to propogate homophobia and sexist attitudes, so the focus on the innate cultural predisposition to sexism and/or homophobia is just more prejudice.

For christsakes I know atheist's who are totally homophobic and sexist. You don't need Islam to be so.

Behaviouralist sociologists are notoriously sexist. Are we going around saying that Social Scientists are "culturally predisposed to sexist behaviour?"

[ 04 January 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
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posted 04 January 2005 12:53 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well in my opinion all societies are disposed to to be patriarchal and sexist.

While I'd be inclined to agree, the threads quite clearly make the case that an Islamic justice tribunal in Canada would be significantly more patriarchal or sexist than the current Canadian system.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 January 2005 12:56 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

While I'd be inclined to agree, the threads quite clearly make the case that an Islamic justice tribunal in Canada would be significantly more patriarchal or sexist than the current Canadian system.


I don't see that logic.

There is a reason that feminists in Canada have turned to the courts and the Charter with enthusiasm.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 January 2005 12:57 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The whole arbitration thing has turned out to be friggin mess, that is all I can say.

But here we have this fellow going around saying that some particullar group of persons (whom he now refuses to identify) are "culturally predisposed toward jew hatred."

Is it the Mormons? Whom is it Phonicidal?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 04 January 2005 01:41 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is a reason that feminists in Canada have turned to the courts and the Charter with enthusiasm.

So then would, or would not, an Islamic tribunal be more sexist or patriarchal than this Canadian system?

And before you or anyone else replies that all tribunals or alternative justice is inherently less fair or less just, remember that nobody's talking seriously about disbanding Aboriginal sentencing circles, Jewish tribunals, etc. It's all about Islam and Sharia.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 January 2005 01:47 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My comparison, Mr Magoo, was being drawn between cultures, which I believe was the category this thread was discussing. Cueball opined that all cultures have tended to be patriarchal, and I was agreeing with him. Canadian feminists did not win legal protections of their rights by any majority vote, if you take my point?

You say that nobody in the other threads was talking about challenging the other arbitration panels, but that is simply wrong. Tarek Fatah, who started both threads, was arguing precisely that, as were Tommy P and, eventually, both radiorahim and I, with some reservations.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Phonicidal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7635

posted 04 January 2005 01:54 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
You say that nobody in the other threads was talking about challenging the other arbitration panels, but that is simply wrong. Tarek Fatah, who started both threads, was arguing precisely that, as were Tommy P and, eventually, both radiorahim and I, with some reservations.
In fairness to Magoo, he did add the "seriously" caveat. And, I agree. People are talking about disbanding all tribunals. But, they are only really talking seriously about it in reference to sharia. That is, I doubt the sincerity of most people who are talking about disbanding all tribunals. I think that they are doing so simply so that they can appear to be taking a consistent position on keeping sharia out. In reality, I don't think that Tarek or most of the other opponents give a rat's tuchas about whether Jews can go toa Beit Din or not.

From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 04 January 2005 01:58 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You say that nobody in the other threads was talking about challenging the other arbitration panels, but that is simply wrong.

I said "disbanding", not challenging. I'm aware that many babblers disagree on principle with alternative justice programs, but that's not the same as a concrete plan to do away with them entirely, in fairness to Muslims (if they are not permitted the same).

If you or anyone else is making a real and sincere effort to disband other alternative justice programs at the same time as prohibiting the latest of these then I can't see where (but I'll eat the necessary crow if you'd point it out).


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 January 2005 02:02 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
(Edited to say: this is addressed to Phonicidal)

You are a mind-reader?

Tarek made his principled concerns about other panels very clear, I thought, with one lengthy and very disturbing report that had nothing to do with sharia.

Beyond that, his arguments against privatizing the legal system exactly parallel any democrat's principled opposition to privatizing the school system or the health system. I thought his objectivity was close to unassailable, and probably more rigorous than mine would be.

[ 04 January 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 January 2005 02:07 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mr Magoo, how many times do I have to repeat the same point?

Tarek made it perfectly clear, in his opening posts, that he is appealing to NDPers to oppose the Arbitration Act as a whole.

He has had some unqualified support, and some hesitant support from people like me who want to think about things for a while.

And he has also run into some opposition and a predictable amount of trolling.

Another happy day on babble.


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Phonicidal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7635

posted 04 January 2005 02:11 PM      Profile for Phonicidal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
You are a mind-reader?
Yes.

Is it entirely inconceivable that one's actual concerns and sympathies may differ slightly in private as opposed to in public? My private beliefs have certainly been speculated about on babble without any text to back up those speculations. Am I not allowed to do the same?


From: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 04 January 2005 02:12 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
And before you or anyone else replies that all tribunals or alternative justice is inherently less fair or less just, remember that nobody's talking seriously about disbanding Aboriginal sentencing circles, Jewish tribunals, etc. It's all about Islam and Sharia.

Actually, I have gone on record as stating that I would refuse to allow any religious tribunal any legal or quasi-judicial authority at all.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 04 January 2005 02:19 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fair enough. But would you take the next step, of actually disbanding them? Could you stand up and say to the Assembly of First Nations that sentencing circles are now forbidden, in keeping with Canadian ideals of justice?

If so, cool.

If not, then that's kind of what I mean when I say that while I know many babblers have expressed their belief that these alternatives ought not to exist, I haven't seen the same energy devoted to abolishing the ones we already have as there is devoted to ensuring that those Muslims don't get theirs. And to bring this all back to the start, I think this extra energy devoted to preventing Sharia tribunals is linked to a belief that Muslim women would be pressured into using Sharia tribunals and that such tribunals are necessarily sexist and patriarchal. Inherently. And clearly in a way that Beit Din or sentencing circles isn't.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 04 January 2005 02:37 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One point of distinction concerning sentencing circles: they do not sentence anyone, they provide a recommendation to the judge. And they have nothing to do with the trial of anyone; that is done by "the system."
From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 04 January 2005 03:01 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mr Magoo, it is my belief that without the Supreme Court backing us up, many many women in Canada of all derivations would still be being pressured into a whole lot of shit.

Have a nice day.


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Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 04 January 2005 03:01 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What on earth does ANY of this have to do with the subject of the thread?

Back on topic! *whipcrack*


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438

posted 04 January 2005 09:50 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Perhaps a good start might be a show of the world's indignation over abuses by other mid east countries towards their own citizens, Heck maybe we could see it here more consistantly. Lets name some of those abuses:
extreme homophobia
lack of a fair judical system
daily human rights abuses
discrimination against Christian minorities
intolerance of any political opposition
Anyone care to name more....?

I believe that the world has been fairly indignant about certain aspects of middle eastern life. Women in Afghanistan garnished world wide attention. Female genital mutilation has received international outcy. The hijab is illegal in two countries now based on the archaic view that it "oppresses" women

I can't think of a culture or faith that gets MORE criticism than islam.

quote:
To deny that some Arab countries promote Jew hatred in their media and in some cultural institutions is just plain silly. That is what is meant by "culturally predisposed." When a culture fosters a particular belief, it's not so unreasonable to assert that people from said culture are "culturally predisposed" to that belief. It doesn't mean that Arabs automatically hate Jews. It means that some Arab states, formally or informally, teach their people to do so.

Honestly, Phenocidal I believe that there is such marked division between these two communities that the hostilities are mutual. It has been my experience that both groups of people are guilty of forming already existing impressions of persons based on knowing the cultural heritage of the other and they often guide their children and families to think the same way. I don't think that any one group can say they have a monopoly on this.

quote:
That is the cop-out of the century (litterally). Arabs need to take some responsibility for the horrible conditions that exist in many Arab countries. You may be right that the west bears some responsibility. But, if the Arab world is to emerge from the dark ages, they are going to have to find the strength to do much of the legwork on their own.

Arabs need to take responsibility? You do know most of them are not in free democratic countries I assume?

The dark ages? Do you have any idea how biased that sounds?


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged

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