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Author Topic: Israel's 'image' vs. Humanity
aRoused
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Babbler # 1962

posted 27 July 2004 07:56 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This all brings me to a question that has been going on in my mind for a while: (...) shouldn't all participants have some sort of collective framework? I thought that the common ground on babble was human welfare, where it should circumscribe all processes. When it comes to Syria or to Sudan, there is some sort of uninamity because of the human suffering at stake; however, I feel that most of the pro-Israel posters have Israel as their overriding telos, not human good. So, when the two conflict, they go out of their way to make Isreal look good at the expense of human suffering. Hence, the question, what is more important, Israel's image or humanity?

Comments made by liminal, here.

Discuss?

First, let it be perfectly clear to those who would derail debate, this is not a question of Israel's right to exist. So don't start in with that.

Israel, as a country, has changed 'image' through time. This is a perfectly natural process for any country to go through, as politics change and mutate. Israel initially was a darling of progressives, partly due to its promotion of collective ideals. The more recent rightward trend of Israeli politics, and the associated increased use of force as a solution to problems of policy both 'foreign' and 'domestic', has undercut much of this support.

As I've pointed out in the past, those who defend Israel's actions, no matter what those actions are, are adopting the same rhetoric that has been employed by the conservative camps of North American politics. With this objective rightward swing in Israeli politics, plus the conservative rhetoric from apologists for Israel closer to home, is it any wonder that progressives find themselves less and less enamoured of Israel?

As my offering to this debate, and as only one of a myriad reasons why Israel's positive image among progressives is being eroded, I give you [URL=http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y2AE466E8
]the fate of the kibbutz[/URL].

From two of those articles:

quote:
Across Israel as a whole, Mr Sharon took 63.6% of the Jewish vote in Tuesday's elections, with support for Mr Barak, of the Labour party, at 36.3%. (...) But standing firm against the tide, the kibbutzim voted 87.5% for Mr Barak.

and

quote:
The cold-blooded murders of Revital Ohayon and her two young sons in their beds by a young Arab gunman last Sunday has not shaken Kibbutz Metzer's core belief in an independent Palestine. If anything, the killings have reinforced the conviction among its 500 or so residents that the peaceful coexistence they enjoy with their closest Arab neighbours is the only answer to Israel's problems.
"We were targeted because of our belief," said Dov Avital, the kibbutz's chief economist. "They wanted to show there is no such thing as coexistence. They think Palestinians should fight Jews. If they kill our dream, our vision of life, then they will have succeeded."

The belief in that vision - derided by the Israeli right as "pipe dreams" - was affirmed by the dozens of Arabs who came from villages miles away to express their sorrow at the killings on a kibbutz which is known for its opposition to Jewish domination.


[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


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Jack01
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posted 27 July 2004 10:25 AM      Profile for Jack01        Edit/Delete Post
After Oslo and after 9/11 I looked at the situation through a different prism.

I don't see a peace or negotiated settlement or peaceful coexsistence.

Israel is the bogeyman for the Islamic world.

The meat grinder will continue year after year. Maybe the fence will lower the #'s. Maybe?

The mistaken idea that political or military engagement gains them anything has been given up.

Take down the settlements. Build the fence as close to the green line as possible. Disengage from the military incursions.

"Disconnect".

The industry of Palestinian victimhood will have to find a new antagonist.

The Israelies have finally fingured out that they have been one half of a co-dependent dysfuntional partnership.


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aRoused
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posted 27 July 2004 10:56 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uhhh, yeah. So, which is more important, Israel's image, or that it treat the people it occupies humanely?

Is it more important to you that Israel look good on the surface, no matter what is happening underneath, or that it actually _be_ a force for positive change (and no, building a wall around the West Bank is not a positive change for either side)?


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 27 July 2004 01:33 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is it more important to you that Israel look good on the surface, no matter what is happening underneath, or that it actually _be_ a force for positive change (and no, building a wall around the West Bank is not a positive change for either side)?


Israel's image is definitely not as important as its humanity. It baffles me that so many Zionists in the United States and elsewhere are so committed to Israeli statehood but refuse to see flaws in the fabric of Israeli society and support brutal, militaristic policies that endanger what they consider to be a Jewish homeland. Israel will not be able to fulfill its stated purpose (to act as a shelter for the world's Jews) if it doesn't get its economy functioning again, that won't happen until it adopts a more humanistic way of dealing with both its own citizens and the Palestinians.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jack01
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posted 27 July 2004 02:13 PM      Profile for Jack01        Edit/Delete Post
Why? The assumption that Israel has to deal with the Palestinians?

The old dynamic is tit for tat violence.

A false negotiation.

Israel got suckered into playing the overseer to the Palestinians. The occupation was Israel playing one half in the co-dependent insanity.

Its a loose loose for the Israelies. There is no humanity in that role.


From: Windsor, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 27 July 2004 02:31 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
For many people on the right who don't live in the middle East, viewing the events going on in Israel/Palestine as having a certain "correctness" or "logic" that Israel should use to its advantage is just a way of disconnecting from the problem and not having to be challenged by complicated ideas any more. It's a way of saying "see, I'm right". It's hardly suprising that the right would latch onto it in this way, since reducing complicated things to false clarities is what the right likes to do.

Great. I doubt the people living there give a shit one way or the other, since it's not about how any outsider feels about it, or what intellectual burden it becomes for him or her.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jack01
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posted 27 July 2004 02:55 PM      Profile for Jack01        Edit/Delete Post
Hinterland,

I could never understand why peace couldn't be negotiated.

After 9/11 and reading up on Islam it became a little bit clearer for me.

My old "false clarity" was the idea that if the Jews were just nice enough and patient enough that at some point the obvious choice would be "peace".

The false clarity I was using was my own perspective that "peace" is what anyone and everyone would want.

Not all people want peace.


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Courage
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posted 27 July 2004 03:01 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jack01:

Not all people want peace.


West Bank settlements continue to grow.

Yeah, good ol' patient Israel.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
t_link
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posted 27 July 2004 03:04 PM      Profile for t_link     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What has Arafat done for peace?
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Courage
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posted 27 July 2004 03:18 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Humanity first.
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 27 July 2004 04:15 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
After 9/11 and reading up on Islam it became a little bit clearer for me.

Right. Cause they hate our freedoms. If that isn't the falsest of all false-clarities, I don't know what is. If that's your starting point, well, good luck with that.

Humanity first.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jack01
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posted 27 July 2004 05:04 PM      Profile for Jack01        Edit/Delete Post
Hinterland,

My false clarities are my own.

The old one used to be that "Islam is a religon of peace".

Once you drill down on that one an peel off the scab you get a slightly different definition of Islam.

Once you see Islam for what it is then rethink the Israelie/Palestine thing you gain new "clarities".

I keep looking for that verse in the Quran that says if your neighbors are a different religon that it's o.k.

All I can find is the slay them where you find them stuff.


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Bacchus
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posted 27 July 2004 05:09 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're not looking hard enough then. Look for the verse which commands muslims to respect and protect people of the 'book' (Jews and christians) and the fact that muslim communities in the middle ages and renaissance were the only ones to respect the rights and religons of christians and jews (albeit after paying a tax for not being muslim) whereas the other communities in europes specialized in pogroms against jews
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Michelle
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posted 27 July 2004 05:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doesn't say that in Judaism or Christianity either, Jack01. The Old Testament was full of "God's chosen people" conquering the godless heathens of other lands, because they were unworthy due to following false gods.

In the New Testament, which is often quoted by Christians who believe theirs is the one true faith, it says that no one comes to the father (e.g. God) except through the Son (e.g. Jesus).


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 27 July 2004 05:21 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
That's what I'm talking about, Jack; false clarities. You want to blame this all on Islam, just like Americans blamed the Cold War and Vietnam on Communism. Does that ever get us anywhere? In the case of the Cold War, it brought us to the brink of nuclear holocaust. I have no idea what this war against Islam is going to bring us; history is filled with disaster upon disaster when that kind of thing is attempted.

Even if you're right, Jack (which you're not, by the way)...where does that get us? So that we can justify endless war and genocide and the relegation of innocent people to misery and poverty?


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Michelle
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posted 27 July 2004 05:26 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BTW, Jack, just a comment on this:

quote:
I could never understand why peace couldn't be negotiated.

After 9/11 and reading up on Islam it became a little bit clearer for me.


It sounds to me like you're implying that you can't negotiate peace with Muslims because of their religion. I would rather you didn't generalize like that. After all, there are lots of adherents of other religions (e.g. Jews and Christians) who have some pretty bloodthirsty sacred texts, but who are peaceful people who can be negotiated with.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 27 July 2004 05:35 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jack01:
The Israelies have finally fingured out that they have been one half of a co-dependent dysfunctional partnership.

So they've decided the solution is to jail, beat and abuse the partner?


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DrConway
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posted 27 July 2004 07:28 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I realize I may be contributing to thread drift but I was given this excellent URL: Impressions of America: How Arabs view the United States (A PDF file, so please have Acrobat Reader available)
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jack01
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posted 27 July 2004 09:33 PM      Profile for Jack01        Edit/Delete Post
Tie it all together.

Sure, Bacchus the Quran is basically borrowed from the old and new testament so pick your verse.

I focus on the violent ones because it suits my needs.

When you get to the part about people of the book then you start to hit on the sharred hypocrasy of the Monothesic religons.

If the Quran is the voice of God via the final prophet then Muslims are calling dibs on having the last and final say about which monothesic God is the most righteous.

For Muslims walking the earth with the most righteous God makes it tough to swallow the fact the 5 million Jews with the backing of the USA have been cleaning your clock for the last 50 years.

I agree I don't think Muslims would have a big problem if 5 million Jews exsisted within a Muslim framework.

What frosts the Muslim is the idea that Israel as a Jewish country exsists smack dab in the center of the Middle East.

The fact that its the only free democracy in the Middle East only compounds the problem.

To answer Hinterland and Michelle, yes I do blame it all on Islam. I believe the reason there can't be peace between Israel and Palestine is Islam.

Looking at what Dr. Conway posted you don't see the Middle East looking for secular democracy you see it hoping for the day that the USA no longer supports Israel so that they can have another crack at throwing the Jews out of Israel.

My point about Israel being half of a dysfunctional co-dependent partnership is that it fits perfectly into the role of antagonist in the Islamic religon. Islam is hard wired for conflict.

Israel doesn't need to be in the business of jailing, beating and abusing the Palestinians. The Palestinians are ready to go for another hundred years of victimhood.

[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: Jack01 ]


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SnowyPlover
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posted 27 July 2004 09:40 PM      Profile for SnowyPlover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This all brings me to a question that has been going on in my mind for a while: (...) shouldn't all participants have some sort of collective framework? I thought that the common ground on babble was human welfare, where it should circumscribe all processes. When it comes to Syria or to Sudan, there is some sort of uninamity because of the human suffering at stake; however, I feel that most of the pro-Israel posters have Israel as their overriding telos, not human good. So, when the two conflict, they go out of their way to make Isreal look good at the expense of human suffering. Hence, the equestion, what is more important, Israel's image or humanity?

An interesting thread. Clearly humanity is the primary discourse here. Humanity is the medium for which this forum, similar to the political forum in the the middle east (and for that matter...the world) may actually achieve something.

Yet the thesis regarding humanity vs. Israel's image is troublesome. Liminal has some defenders of Israel choosing Israels image over humanity. This alone is a problematic conclusion because it doesnt consider the WHOLE context of the debate. If one were to regard this as a hypothesis, then one must also consider (in justification) that non-pro-Israel posters in this forum disregard humanity for the sake of maintaining image aswell. For example, take a look at the thread regarding Lebanese democracy. That was truly a debate about the value of humanity vs. the image of the Lebanese so-called democracy. But we wont tred down that road again. Yet it goes to say that defending image over humanity is inherent in this debate, in whatever subject you choose.

One persons overiding telos for humanity could be another persons overiding telos for image and vise-versa. Think about it. Its one big paradox.

For instance, many people in this forum defend the Palestinian cause(image) at the expense Israeli life. And naturally, its a two way street. On the contrary, the 'collective framework' on babble INCLUDES people supporting one cause at the expense of another (even if its humanity).

No, although an interesting insight at most, the debate here is of a different nature. Instead of attempting to rate this abstract dichotomy between image and humanity, the real question here is where did humanity disappear to? Clearly it has been fumbled up in political jargon and years of violent conflict.

When aroused speaks of a force for positive change, i must ask: does the present circumstance appear to foster a climate for positive change? Tragically Not.

Where is the humanity? Well, clearly the leadership of the Palestinian people is lacking its compulsory dose. In fact, chairman Arafat, the PA, and the rest of the Arab world (yes, including Egypt and Jordan) have done a pretty good job at deserting their fellow brothers. The only representatives actually working for humanity are the silent PNGO's and the Radical Islamists and beleive it or not...the Israeli NGO's aswell. Whats worse, is that the leaders claiming to represent the Palestinian people (and for that matter, the vast majority of the Arab world) have deflected their peoples anger, suffering and impoverishment by supporting Radical Islam, instead of taking accountability. Where is the humanity? If we are speaking about Isreals image, what about the image of its neighbors that plays just as much of a role? The Babble middle east forum has happened to lack a serious focus regarding the Palestinian leadership and their humanitarian role in this whole narrative.

That said, It would be unfair to exclude the flaws of Israel. Where is the accountability of Israel in the Palestinian territories? We've seen that it has had a much better track record than any other occupying power,(and any other power has had a much shorter yard-stick to measure up to) yet that doesnt excuse anything. However, nor does it excuse playing Israels image off of the notion of humanity.


From: Archipelago | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 27 July 2004 10:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jack01, you really need to stop generalizing about "the Muslim" or adherents of Islam in general. It wouldn't be allowed if you were doing so about any other religious group, and therefore you need to stop doing it about Muslims. I appreciate that it's your honestly-held belief, but it's not appropriate here.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 27 July 2004 10:42 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jack01:
Sure, Bacchus the Quran is basically borrowed from the old and new testament so pick your verse.

I focus on the violent ones because it suits my needs.


So you admit you're guilty of selective quoting to make Islam look bad. You're in good company, you're in with only 89326589534 other people who all have pointy heads and laugh like braying donkeys whenever someone comes along to trash that religion.

quote:
Looking at what Dr. Conway posted you don't see the Middle East looking for secular democracy you see it hoping for the day that the USA no longer supports Israel so that they can have another crack at throwing the Jews out of Israel.

Hello? Way to make an invalid conclusion on the basis of inadequate data!

The last major war of any consequence was in 1973. Do you really think the Arabs are still (if indeed they ever were ) slavering mangy dogs itching to tear apart Israel?

Please. Use your head for once instead of just blabbering the same old racist crap about how "we" are "fighting the Arab peril". Yes, you will say that's not what you said, but it's what you implied.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Socrates
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posted 28 July 2004 06:00 AM      Profile for Socrates   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For what it's worth, Humanity first.

Seems to me like that should go without saying, pity we have to argue over it.

Pity a lot of things......

'night all


From: Viva Sandinismo! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 July 2004 07:24 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You're in good company, you're in with only 89326589534 other people who all have pointy heads and laugh like braying donkeys

Doc, please refer to number three.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 28 July 2004 07:25 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
To answer Hinterland and Michelle, yes I do blame it all on Islam. I believe the reason there can't be peace between Israel and Palestine is Islam.


This kind of thinking leads to genocide. It is that simple. Quit generalizing about all Muslims, especially if you've never met one. I wonder if you've actually read the Bible if you can't see that it is exactly as bloodthirsty (if not more so) as the Koran.

Humanity first.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 28 July 2004 08:16 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For example, take a look at the thread regarding Lebanese democracy. That was truly a debate about the value of humanity vs. the image of the Lebanese so-called democracy. But we wont tred down that road again. Yet it goes to say that defending image over humanity is inherent in this debate, in whatever subject you choose.

Yes, but that thread was at least in part started in response to pro-Israeli posters who went around claiming (image) that Israel was the only democracy in the Middle East/Islam was not conducive to democracy. So in a very real sense this thread that you suggest was about Lebanon's image, was a direct result of the image over humanity obesssion of the pro-Israeli camp here.

And pro-Israeli is such a terrible term. It implies that those babblers who support the Palestinians in their struggle for freedom are somehow anti-Israel, which is a complete lie, albeit one frequently repeated in order to attack those that would keep Israel from 'getting a pass' based on...wait for it...image alone.

quote:
If we are speaking about Isreals image, what about the image of its neighbors that plays just as much of a role? The Babble middle east forum has happened to lack a serious focus regarding the Palestinian leadership and their humanitarian role in this whole narrative.

This is mostly due to the simple fact that there is precious little in terms of 'Palestinian leadership and their humanitarian role' possible in the face of Sharon's various plans and machinations for the Occupied Territories. Or in the words of Dennis Miller (of all people) 'I'm sure Arafat will put at stop to suicide bombers as he sits in the rubble of his offices, armed with a cell phone that runs on his own urine'.

Very few people here like Arafat. The fact that his leadership is commented on less than that of Sharon probably has something to do with who has the tanks and free run of the land, and who has the rocks and has to go through checkpoints, no?


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jack01
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posted 28 July 2004 10:02 AM      Profile for Jack01        Edit/Delete Post
Dr C.

The URL you listed asks the question?

Wbat should America do to improve its image in the Arab World?

#1 response. Stop Supporting Israel.

Helping the Palestinians and Making Peace didn't get alot of votes.

Israel seems to be the hot botton in Arab World.

For me its bad history repeating itself. The Germans needed a bogeyman for contrast to their Aryian beliefs.

Sarcasmobri brings up Genocide and generalization.

The Genocide in Algeria was around 150,000 people.

That one wasn't about Jews and Arabs that one was about Islamists and the Muslims the Islamists considered apostates.

Again, the referrent power to kill in Algeria was based in the Quran who like the Bible and the Torah has lots of stuff to use if you want to justify killing.


From: Windsor, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 28 July 2004 10:59 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Seems to me 'Stop Supporting Israel' = 'Help the Palestinians' + 'Making Peace'.

..and back to polygon clip coverage data processing..

Back for a minute: Jack01, I'd *like* to try and engage you, but frankly, I can rarely make your laundry list of one-liners into a coherent train of thought that I can process. Maybe a brief paragraph? Please?

[ 28 July 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 28 July 2004 11:30 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm all for co-existence. Meaning to states side by side helping each other economically and socially even having school trips to each other countries perhaps a couple of mixed schools along the border. I think having communities like kibuttz Metzer are very hopeful. Perhaps the only true hope in this chaos.


The question one should ask is not whether Israel has a right to exist The question is what the ends that you are trying to reach. It certainly is about humanity but how are you going to achieve. How are you going to minimize the costs and maximize the benefits.

Do people really think that an unrestricted right of return will make people happy? That it will make the vast majority of Palestinians better off then they are? Or is there better way we can improve their situation?

Or If Israel only put the fence inside its borders (which I support) then everyone would be happy or have no fence at all?

I think its pretty obvious to everyone that Israel has many obligations which it is not really doing a good job of fulfilling lately however do Terje Roed-Larsen comments hold no water? What obligations do the Palestinians have? Are they fulliling as good as they can given the circumstance can they do better or is it someone elses responsibility?

We all know that Israeli Arabs are sadly far from equal citizens and this wrong.

We also know that Israel's government is at least as corrupt as any other western government if not more.

But I dare you to ask the following questions to any Israeli Arab

Would you support a Palestinian state? I'm sure The vast majority would say yes.

Then asked them would they like to live there? I'm sure that a vast majority would say wait a minute don't go too far.

Think about it think about what you are going to achieve. Think about humanity and the realistic means your going to achieve it with.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 July 2004 12:29 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But I dare you to ask the following questions to any Israeli Arab

Would you support a Palestinian state? I'm sure The vast majority would say yes.

Then asked them would they like to live there? I'm sure that a vast majority would say wait a minute don't go too far.


Which brings us back to "humanity."

Peace is not going to happen until Israelis respect the humanity of the Palestinians. The first step is to acknowledge that they have committed a great wrong against the Palestinians. A show of contrition, symbolic though it may be, will go a long way.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 28 July 2004 01:28 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Jack01, you really need to stop generalizing about "the Muslim" or adherents of Islam in general. It wouldn't be allowed if you were doing so about any other religious group, and therefore you need to stop doing it about Muslims. I appreciate that it's your honestly-held belief, but it's not appropriate here.
Not suggesting that you kick Jack01, but I think your "warning" is under par. Especially with soemone who always carries an anti-Arab/Islamic tone, and doesn't know too much, yet keeps shooting their mouth off like they do.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 July 2004 01:33 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Blind Patriot, if you have a complaint about the moderation, please take it to rabble reactions, or to private mail or e-mail. I don't want Middle East threads to be derailed.

See this thread. Thanks!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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Babbler # 1962

posted 28 July 2004 01:38 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I believe Jack01 has been kicked, due to another thread. Not sure I agree with the decision, but also not shedding many tears.
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
SnowyPlover
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posted 28 July 2004 01:39 PM      Profile for SnowyPlover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yes, but that thread was at least in part started in response to pro-Israeli posters who went around claiming (image) that Israel was the only democracy in the Middle East/Islam was not conducive to democracy. So in a very real sense this thread that you suggest was about Lebanon's image, was a direct result of the image over humanity obesssion of the pro-Israeli camp here

First of all, that thread WAS NOT started in response to pro-Israeli posters. If you would recall the thread (which you probably didnt bother to take a look at anyway) CMOT brought up Liminals assertion that Lebanon was the oldest democracy in the middle east. Israel was realed in to the discussion later when it became an argument of image over image. But this is all irrelevent if you consider that this whole dynamic of image vs. humanity is interchangeable and arbitrary. It is the natural tendency of babblers to argue justifying ones image at the expense of humanity and vice versa. I mean, the Lebanese Democracy thread was also about 'humanity' in Israel vs. 'humanity' in Lebanon. Exchange and juggle the word 'image' in this narrative and it becomes merely an issue of semantics and not an issue of substance.

quote:
And pro-Israeli is such a terrible term. It implies that those babblers who support the Palestinians in their struggle for freedom are somehow anti-Israel, which is a complete lie, albeit one frequently repeated in order to attack those that would keep Israel from 'getting a pass' based on...wait for it...image alone.

Again, the same goes for the term pro-Palestinian. Reiterating your implication: It implies that those babblers who support the Israelis in their struggle for freedom are somehow anti-Palestinian, which is also a complete lie, albeit one frequently repeated in order to attack those that would keep Palestinians from 'getting a pass' based on...wait for it...image alone.

quote:
This is mostly due to the simple fact that there is precious little in terms of 'Palestinian leadership and their humanitarian role' possible in the face of Sharon's various plans and machinations for the Occupied Territories. Or in the words of Dennis Miller (of all people) 'I'm sure Arafat will put at stop to suicide bombers as he sits in the rubble of his offices, armed with a cell phone that runs on his own urine'.

A poor poor assertion discrediting and defracting the important (albeit unnacountable) role of the Palestinian leadership, and then turning it around and blaming Sharon and Israel.

We already know that many Palestinian leaders (including Arafat who is pertinent in this disussion) have manipulated the Palestinian cause in order to maintain their own sovereignty and authority. But consider the backlash, the real product of this unnacountability. The political dynamic since Olso is characterized by demand for territorial concessions and an end to the occupation which has completely overshadowed Palestinian concerns for political and social freedoms. (Garnering 88 percent of the popular vote through corrupt, undemocratic means may be one inkling as to this phenonmenon) All the while, this dynamic has helped legitimate PA state-building demands at the expense of a pluralist Palestinian society.

Nevermind if people like him or not...When we speak of state-building demands, we can think of Arafat's double standard in securing a monopoly over the means of violence in order to promote and defend the Palestinian cause, bread a culture of hate and secure his notion of sovereignty. Then again turning his back and repressing the opposition and the moderate, dissident voices. Dont be mistaken, his iron fist from the Muqata is not diluted by his piss-phone.

In addition, Palestinian and International NGO's have created a subtantial presence in the territories and they might have replaced the Israeli occupational apparatus had the PA and Arafat not DELIBERATELY passed over them. (through crony democracy and corrupt money laundering) Did the PNGO community even have the ooportunity to develop a significant political alternative to the PLO, the PA, Hamas?

Did they, do they?Background: A Who's Who of Corruption in Arafats Palestine

quote:
Very few people here like Arafat. The fact that his leadership is commented on less than that of Sharon probably has something to do with who has the tanks and free run of the land, and who has the rocks and has to go through checkpoints, no?

NO.

And with the pattern of chaos fermenting under Arafat shaky command nowadays, we might be seeing another Palestinian vs. Palestinian catastrophe similar to the likes of Black Friday at the Filistin Mosque in '94.


From: Archipelago | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
SnowyPlover
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posted 28 July 2004 01:40 PM      Profile for SnowyPlover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Humanity First
From: Archipelago | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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Babbler # 1962

posted 28 July 2004 02:30 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
First of all, that thread WAS NOT started in response to pro-Israeli posters. If you would recall the thread (which you probably didnt bother to take a look at anyway)

And a big 'Yo Momma' to you too, since I posted to that thread twice (admittedly three weeks ago, fucking sue me if I didn't quite get the details right).

edited to remove additional arseyness after 12 hours staring at the screen. Back tomorrow morning.

[ 28 July 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 28 July 2004 08:21 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The thing is that quite frequently, the Israeli leadership do in fact seem to be "anti-Palestinian", in that they have the Palestinians shot, jailed, tortured, used as human shields, bombed, deprived of water, ghettoized, deprived of work, homes and farms demolished and taken away and so forth. Sometimes their cabinet ministers call the Palestinians' main religion a disease of the blood. And the "Pro-Israel" posters generally say that most of this stuff is justified. Except maybe the "disease of the blood" stuff, but they minimize that. So I can't help feeling that basically, they are in fact "Anti-Palestinian" although they'd prefer not to say so flat out.

Well, except Jack01 who apparently really *is* anti-Palestinian (to the extent that they're Muslims) and basically does say so flat out. And I haven't noticed SnowyPlover or any of the other "not anti-Palestinian" posters taking Jack01 to task for talking constantly about how Islam is an evil religion. I might take them more seriously if they jumped on this kind of anti-Islam rhetoric as fast as the pro-Palestinian posters jump on anti-Jewish rhetoric.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 29 July 2004 02:53 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:
And I haven't noticed SnowyPlover or any of the other "not anti-Palestinian" posters taking Jack01 to task for talking constantly about how Islam is an evil religion. I might take them more seriously if they jumped on this kind of anti-Islam rhetoric as fast as the pro-Palestinian posters jump on anti-Jewish rhetoric.

This may be true, and maybe they wouldn't have done so anyhow; however, I much prefer that they DON'T do so now, in any case, and have specifically requested that people not do so in this thread. I'm hoping that if people are doing more talking about the issues and less policing of the "wrongdoers", that the threads won't be so easily sidetracked.

[ 29 July 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Publically Displayed Name
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posted 29 July 2004 11:42 AM      Profile for Publically Displayed Name        Edit/Delete Post
Lots to chew on, interesting thread.

I do not believe that a generalized focus on "humanity" in discussions on situations like Israel/Palestine will always point to the best possible courses of action. Worrying about the humanity of a situation often doesn't leave enough space to account for what actual humans are likely to do under stress.

If you claim to be actually concerned about Israel, then you need to be concerned about the country's metaphorical soul. You would protest all torture, and you would not merely regret Palestinian civilian casualties from the IDF's action, you would call for an end to all tactics which cause them.

For example: assasinating the head of Hamas is _the most_ terrible thing to do--which is not to say it might be staggeringly unproductive--but using a missile to do so in a crowded neighbourhood where someone else stands a good chance of getting hurt or killed is completely unacceptable. It stains the soul of the country.

The reasoning stands _no matter what_ you suspect any individual or group of Palestians or Arabs or Muslims (or Arab nations) are doing or plotting or wishing on any given day.

Same goes for people who claim to support the Palestinians. If they want what's good for the potential country, they would sincerely despise suicide bombings and attacks on civilians, the organisations that order them, the organisations that fail to prevent them, and the individuals who shrug and say "what would do you expect?". Not necessarily for the harm it does to Israelis, but for the harm it does to the future state of Palestine. These are not the only tactics available.

And probably many or most Israel supporters and Palestian supporters here on babble do feel that way, but when you put them all in the same thread, each side feels like their boys are getting dogpiled.

So maybe the solution is for the Israel supporters to confine themselves to complaining about Israel, and the Palestinian supporters to confine themselves to complaining about the actions of certain Palestinians. Yeah, that'd make for a lively board.


From: Canada | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 29 July 2004 12:08 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am finishing up what has been a facinating trip to Israel. What is most interesting are the Israelis themselves. Brash, honest, passionate from all political circles they do not hesitate to tell you how they feel about Sharon, his policies or for that matter any government official.

I spent a day on Kibbutz Sede Eliyahu in the Jordan valley, where the man chosen by Sharon to put into place the evacuation of Gaza resides. This Kibbutz is right wing religious yet there is a 50/50 split even amongst the most right wing as to the necessity to leave Gaza. On this Kibbutz that is significant.

From what I can tell most Israelis I have spoken to are not only fully supportive of the withdrawal from Gaaza but many look forward to a withdrawal as well from the West bank. Many feel that it is time for Israel to take percipitous action and let the PA develop its state.

The arguments here are electric.

BTW from just outside Jerusalem where I now am staying I can see the "Seperation Fence". Michelle and others who have accepted the false claim that this is a wall, please before you judge see for yourself. I have. The fence works. It is a fence a fence of protection. I was asked in a closed thread how many Palestinian lives the fence has saved. I would argue hundreds. There has been a diminution of homicide/suicide bombings and as a result retaliation has lessened as well. It is that simple.

I know it is easy to blame the Israelis for everything after all they are in a power position. But the desire for peace here is strong and enervating. Come see for yourself before you so easily dump on Israel and her people.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 29 July 2004 12:27 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Come see for yourself before you so easily dump on Israel and her people.

Welcome back, Macabee. There are some new "house rules" for the Middle East forum. Please see this thread for details. See particularly point number 4. Your statement that I highlighted above, which accuses babblers collectively, or anticipates babblers collectively of doing something negative is considered baiting. Please refrain.

Also, please refer to point number 2 if you feel the urge to respond to this post in this thread.

[ 29 July 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SnowyPlover
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posted 29 July 2004 12:29 PM      Profile for SnowyPlover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The thing is that quite frequently, the Israeli leadership do in fact seem to be "anti-Palestinian", in that they have the Palestinians shot, jailed, tortured, used as human shields, bombed, deprived of water, ghettoized, deprived of work, homes and farms demolished and taken away and so forth. Sometimes their cabinet ministers call the Palestinians' main religion a disease of the blood. And the "Pro-Israel" posters generally say that most of this stuff is justified. Except maybe the "disease of the blood" stuff, but they minimize that. So I can't help feeling that basically, they are in fact "Anti-Palestinian" although they'd prefer not to say so flat out.

You could say the same thing about the Palestinian leaders and multiply it times ten. Whats your point here? I see you deliberately trying to incriminate Israel on an unmerited OPINION. Talk facts here. And besides, maybe if you had read the article i provided in my previous post (or maybe even read my post) you might understand why the Palestinian leadership is also directly responsible for the grievances and hardships of the Palestinian people. If you are speaking of me as a pro-Israel poster, back up your claims as to when I personally justified unabashed HATE for the Palestinian people. For that matter, PROVE YOUR POINT! Instead of just dispensing blanket statements. Generalizing about Israeli leaders and pro-Israel posters is one great way to portray an unbalanced perspective.

This all goes to show how people prefer to counter image over humanity. Any time any place, and without being accountable for it either. Rufus, recall what thread you posted to? public name is right, a generalizing focus on humanity is not constructive here.

quote:
So maybe the solution is for the Israel supporters to confine themselves to complaining about Israel, and the Palestinian supporters to confine themselves to complaining about the actions of certain Palestinians. Yeah, that'd make for a lively board.

Wishful thinking. I'd love to see that happen on the ground much less in the forum because then you would see this whole disfunctional relationship mended over. Unfortunately, people are too saturated with defending image over humanity, or somehow making it seem like they are doing the opposite when in actuality the whole dynamic is obsolete in the first place. Unfortunately at this point, until the two sides separate and have two states for two people, that will be the only time when each side can honestly look in the mirror.

btw- assasinating Rantisi and Yassin was probably the MOST productive operation this year.


From: Archipelago | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 29 July 2004 01:25 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It seems obvious that we all see humanity as a priority but it seems in this thread that the word humanity has become a loaded term without really any explanation or anything behind it.

I feel the same way today about the word peace everybody wants peace but peace means different things to different people.

I suggest instead of people just yelling out humanity they describe what they mean by it and how they believe is the best way to achieve it. Then we can debate that.

I personally am a utilitarian so I'm certainly looking for the greatest good for the greatest number but others here might not see it the same way I do.

Finally I'd like to say again just because I'm pro Israel does not mean I'm not critical of it or do not think it has done no wrong doings. Actually I have seen here many more pro Israel posters admit to wrong doings of the Israel government then pro-Palestinian posters admit to wrong doings or responsibility towards achieving peace and keeping the peace process on track. As well I think it is critical to mention just because your pro one side doesn't mean your anti another personally I'm sick of those labels.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
SnowyPlover
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posted 29 July 2004 01:30 PM      Profile for SnowyPlover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justified
From: Archipelago | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 29 July 2004 01:32 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
It seems obvious that we all see humanity as a priority but it seems in this thread that the word humanity has become a loaded term without really any explanation or anything behind it.

Justice, I've been thinking the same thing ever since this thread was started, and you put it perfectly.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 July 2004 01:56 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
btw- assasinating Rantisi and Yassin was probably the MOST productive operation this year.

Murder as production?

So much for humanity.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Publically Displayed Name
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posted 29 July 2004 02:15 PM      Profile for Publically Displayed Name        Edit/Delete Post
That's war for you.
From: Canada | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
SnowyPlover
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posted 29 July 2004 02:20 PM      Profile for SnowyPlover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Murder as production?

So much for humanity.


No Qabong. It was effective. At the expense of the deaths of two leaders of a radical, hate breeding, twisted terrorist group...hundreds of Israeli lives were saved.

If we found Osama Bin Laden and 'murdered' him and then subsequently crippled Al-Qaeda, would that not be effective? wowowiwow, the unduly ignorance...incredible!


From: Archipelago | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 July 2004 02:23 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then what was this?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 29 July 2004 02:25 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the MOST productive operation this year.

Hannah Arendt had views on this sort of language used to describe death and destruction. "The banality of evil" is the well-known summary phrase she used, of course, but it summarizes a long and complex psycho-socio-analysis.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SnowyPlover
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posted 29 July 2004 02:39 PM      Profile for SnowyPlover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Then what was this?

Ummm...Palestine's greatest writer? Who happened to work for newpapers that espoused extreme anti-Semitic propoghanda? Started a newspaper that represented a terrorist organization (PFLP- headed by George Habash one of the most outspoken, radical figures of his time) that was also responsible for numerous casualties?

A great writer he was. I'm not denying that Israel's targeting of certain figures has in many cases been flawed. But what was that anyway? And what does it have to do with Rantisi and Yassin?


From: Archipelago | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 July 2004 02:41 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'll give you some time to think about the implications yourself.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
SnowyPlover
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posted 29 July 2004 02:51 PM      Profile for SnowyPlover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oh great, another derailed thread. I shouldnt have even mentioned the 'implications' of killing two terrorist in order to save lives.
From: Archipelago | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 29 July 2004 02:59 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How is this thread derailed?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SnowyPlover
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posted 29 July 2004 03:03 PM      Profile for SnowyPlover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well not derailed I guess... Since the debate between Israel image vs. humanity has already been rendered obsolete. So I guess we've come to a standstill.

Unless somebody wants to object to the fact that deaths Rantisi and Yassin were not justified.


From: Archipelago | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 29 July 2004 03:11 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Using your logic, the Palestinian suicide bombers are justified as any Israeli killed could have become a sniper murdering Palestinian babies.

Yeah, it is an ugly world when you fill it hate. But you are doing a fine job.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 July 2004 03:36 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Yeah, it is an ugly world when you fill it hate. But you are doing a fine job.

WingNut, have you had a chance to check out this thread yet? If not, please do so.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 July 2004 03:47 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Unless somebody wants to object to the fact that deaths Rantisi and Yassin were not justified.

Canadians in general, and especially those on the left, are opposed to capital punishment.

Why would you think that we'd favour extra-judicial assassination that furthermore causes the deaths of passers-by?

[ 29 July 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 29 July 2004 03:55 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Most people who post to babble are not in favour of calling any death/murder "justified," much less "productive."

Some of us have been accused of "justifying" suicide bombers, but that has always been a false accusation. Anyone who tried to "justify" suicide bombing would be banned very quickly from babble -- and the baiting cynics who still try to level that accusation now stand to be censured as well.

But SnowyPlover thinks that some deaths are both "justified" and "productive." Hmmmn.

[ 29 July 2004: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 29 July 2004 04:02 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Canadians, and especially those on the left, are in general opposed to capital punishment.

Why would you think that we'd favour extra-judicial assassination that furthermore includes the death of passers-by?


Homo Sacer doesn't get such niceties.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 July 2004 04:20 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But SnowyPlover thinks that some deaths are both "justified" and "productive." Hmmmn.

How terribly appropriate that SnowyPlover should be spouting this attitude in this particular thread.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
SnowyPlover
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posted 29 July 2004 04:21 PM      Profile for SnowyPlover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the Palestinian suicide bombers are justified as any Israeli killed could have become a sniper murdering Palestinian babies. [QUOTE]

Theres absolutely no-logic behind that. You're implying that Israeli snipers target Palestinian babies...troll.

Lets get real here. I'm talking about Rantisi and Yassin. Both leaders of Hamas, both known to fabricate, plan and conduct terrorist activities. (That includes having a hand in every Hamas suicide bomber who has caused the deaths of innocent Israelis...an impressive track record of killing hundreds of Jews, Muslims and Christians alike.)

I'm impressed with how easily people on this forum excuse mass-murdering terrorists. If you dont think people like Yassin and Rantisi are an obstacle to peace, much less an obstacle to HUMANISM, then I dont know where to start with ya'll. I appreciate your Canadian values, but at times some of you simply lose touch with reality.

Justifying a Palestinians frustration at the occupation is one thing. But justifying a suicide bomber, deliberatley brainwashed and radically propogandized so as to be used as a puppet for extremism is another. You're addressing this issue like its never been breached before on this forum. Are you really going to scratch at this infected wound again? (emphasize: infected)


From: Archipelago | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 29 July 2004 04:26 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Both leaders of Hamas, both known to fabricate, plan and conduct terrorist activities.

I'm just curious which court found them guilty, and what defence they presented. Since we're talking about humanism, I shouldn't have to presume that people here realize that the humanistic buck stops with a fair and functional court system.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 29 July 2004 04:32 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by SnowyPlover:
I'm impressed with how easily people on this forum excuse mass-murdering terrorists.

I see you're building strawmen again. Please list all the comments by "people on this forum excus(ing) mass-murdering terrorists."

In fact, there are none. There is however, a surefire condemnation of the tactics used by Israel in order to deal with "mass-murdering terrorists". A tactic which is three things: 1) Contrary to the claimed 'democratic' nature of Israel. Extrajudicial assasinations are not the norm for 'democratic' states - AND - 2) contrary to international law - AND - 3) Bears a great resemblence to the crime of which these men are alleged to have been guilty. The attacks that killed these men were carried out in populated areas and killed a number of otherwise innocent bystanders. The disregard for these others is abominable, and every bit as morally condemnable as a suicide bombing.

Israel's message "stop terrorism" is undermined by the method of delivery of that message; i.e. terrorism.

Get it?

[ 29 July 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 29 July 2004 04:36 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle thanks so much for the new rules.I beleive it will help focus discussion.

That said I do not feel I was baiting. A common read of many threads here will show that many here have had a misplaced understanding of the "fence". My admonition was to urge people to see with their own eyes before being so confirmed in what they think of the fence. If that is baiting I need to know why and how so that i too play by the new rules.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
SnowyPlover
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Babbler # 6431

posted 29 July 2004 04:55 PM      Profile for SnowyPlover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel's message "stop terrorism" is undermined by the method of delivery of that message; i.e. terrorism.

An interesting manipulation of the word terrorism Courage. Problem is, its deeply flawed. Because getting rid of Yassin, Rantisi and people alike are aimed at crippling their terrorist activities and infrastructure, not at deliberately targeting civilians.


From: Archipelago | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 29 July 2004 05:06 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm impressed with how easily people on this forum excuse mass-murdering terrorists. If you dont think people like Yassin and Rantisi are an obstacle to peace, much less an obstacle to HUMANISM, then I dont know where to start with ya'll. I appreciate your Canadian values, but at times some of you simply lose touch with reality.

Justifying a Palestinians frustration at the occupation is one thing. But justifying a suicide bomber, deliberatley brainwashed and radically propogandized so as to be used as a puppet for extremism is another. You're addressing this issue like its never been breached before on this forum. Are you really going to scratch at this infected wound again? (emphasize: infected)


No one "excused" them and no one "justified" them. This passage is clearly in violation not only of Michelle's warnings but of babble policy.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 29 July 2004 05:10 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
PS: Michelle, please also note Snowy's carefully edited quotation of WingNut's careful post, which begins, "Using your logic, ..."

Snowy is trying to claim that babblers "justify" or "excuse" suicide bombings. That claim cannot be allowed to stand on this board, not for a minute.

It is legally dangerous for anyone in this country to be accused of such a thing. Snowy must stop.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SnowyPlover
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posted 29 July 2004 05:34 PM      Profile for SnowyPlover     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skd, I never suggested that anyone justified terrorists. When I spoke of the frustrated Palestinian, I was speaking of the difference between sympathizing with his/her troubles and actually justifying terrorism. It was a model for which to differentiate the two. There was no decree mentioned in there.

With regards to Wingnut, the response was addressed to Wingnut regarding his illogical claim. Maybe you should read the rules and you might notice that trying to implicate me is against babble policy. Take it somewhere else and dont derail the thread.

Since it seems there are some people who are offended, i apologize for the use of the word 'excuse'. However retreating from the notion of 'excused' does not disregard the alarming pattern of apologists for Palestinian terror milling about here.


From: Archipelago | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 29 July 2004 05:52 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by SnowyPlover:
I'm impressed with how easily people on this forum excuse mass-murdering terrorists.

This is pure trolling. And this:

quote:
However retreating from the notion of 'excused' does not disregard the alarming pattern of apologists for Palestinian terror milling about here.

does not qualify as a suitable amendment. Consider yourself warned.

quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
That said I do not feel I was baiting. A common read of many threads here will show that many here have had a misplaced understanding of the "fence". My admonition was to urge people to see with their own eyes before being so confirmed in what they think of the fence. If that is baiting I need to know why and how so that i too play by the new rules.

Please take this to private mail or, if you want to discuss it publicly, to rabble reactions. Oh, and thanks for the praise regarding the new rules, which actually aren't really NEW, they're just the regular babble rules which I'm going to apply as firmly as possible since this forum is more inclined than others to get out of hand otherwise.

quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
No one "excused" them and no one "justified" them. This passage is clearly in violation not only of Michelle's warnings but of babble policy.

I appreciate that you (and many others) are taking my new ME forum policy seriously, however, as I mentioned in the first point, it is easier if one person acts as moderator (or two if Audra steps in, of course) and others, if they feel a rule has been violated, send me a private message and point it out to me instead of getting into it in the thread, because that just starts a whole side-discussion. (To everyone: don't worry about sending too many private messages to me. It's going to take a bit of time for people to get out of "bad habits", and it will help me keep on top of it. I appreciate the messages I've received already to that end. In fact, it was a private message that alerted me to the potential storm brewing in this thread.)

[ 29 July 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 29 July 2004 06:52 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When it comes to the issue of Humanity I don't think there is can comparison to asissinating people like Rantisi or Yassin or for that matter any politican or soldier be he/she Israeli or Palestinian to a suicide bombing. I should think the differences are quite obvious.

On the other hand lies the question what either are going to achieve. Here they are quite similar beacause a side from death and blood shed saddly to my knowledge they haven't nor they will achieve much.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 29 July 2004 07:41 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When it comes to the issue of Humanity I don't think there is can comparison to asissinating people like Rantisi or Yassin or for that matter any politican or soldier be he/she Israeli or Palestinian to a suicide bombing. I should think the differences are quite obvious.
On the other hand lies the question what either are going to achieve. Here they are quite similar beacause a side from death and blood shed saddly to my knowledge they haven't nor they will achieve much.


That is an interesting question. Do truly evil people really deserve to die. I would say yes, but in the end, do extra judicial killings really solve anything? Take Hitler for example. He was a truly Despicable human being, and in
my opinion deserved to die most horribly. In fact someone actually tried to murder the bastard. They didn't succeed but the point is, would Adolph Hitler's death have accomplished anything? All of the man's lieutenants were still alive at that point and Germany was still under the bootheal of a totalitarian dictatorship, so wouldn't his death have just cleared the way for another Nazi fanatic have taken over?
Please note that I don't know my german history very well, so if someone on this board wishes to contradict me please feel free to do so.

[ 29 July 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 29 July 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 July 2004 08:29 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The deaths of Rantisi and Yassin haven't done away with what caused them to become involved in the Palestinian resistance.

Others will take their place.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Malek
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Babbler # 6497

posted 29 July 2004 08:35 PM      Profile for Malek     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is no humanity in a doctrine that has its origins in ancient mythology which allows for one side to claim someone else's land as their own because it was promised to them and that they, as the chosen ones, have the right to supplant and expel residents whose people have lived there since recorded history. This doctrine allows for the expulsion of those people to make room for settlements, the plowing over of generational orchards, bulldozing of villages, killing of the residents, and the creation of a massive ghetto by walling in the population. An image has certainly been created through all of this, but humanity is non-existant.
From: Upper Canada | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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posted 29 July 2004 08:40 PM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Their deaths and our (I mean our state's) response chilled me. If we're not willing to allow or insist upon due process, than how far down the slippery slope have we gone?

Nihilistic approaches like this do nothing to improve Israeli security and only strengthen the hand of those who have given up on the possibility of peace.

Humanity First


From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Malek
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posted 29 July 2004 08:44 PM      Profile for Malek     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Recognizing that Israel was created in large part due to the aftermath of the European Holocaust, the question for our time is how much suffering will the Palestinians have to endure before the world takes pity on them and their children? Where do they go as continued settlement encroaches more upon their shrinking territory? Neighboring Arab nations don't want them and their occupiers consider them as sub-human.
From: Upper Canada | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malek
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Babbler # 6497

posted 29 July 2004 08:52 PM      Profile for Malek     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

would Adolph Hitler's death have accomplished anything? All of the man's lieutenants were still alive at that point and Germany was still under the bootheal of a totalitarian dictatorship, so wouldn't his death have just cleared the way for another Nazi fanatic have taken over? Please note that I don't know my german history very well, so if someone on this board wishes to contradict me please feel free to do so.


If the plot to kill Hitler had succeeded on 20 July 1944, the damage of the Holocaust would mostly have been completed then anyway, with the exception of the Hungarian Jews, who I believe were deported for extermination from that country later in 1944. Having said that, it is likely that Germany would have decended into civil war between the SS and the army. A caretaker government would eventually have sued for peace. The war would have ended earlier than the spring of 45 in all probability.


From: Upper Canada | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 30 July 2004 08:51 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malek:

If the plot to kill Hitler had succeeded on 20 July 1944, the damage of the Holocaust would mostly have been completed then anyway, with the exception of the Hungarian Jews, who I believe were deported for extermination from that country later in 1944. Having said that, it is likely that Germany would have decended into civil war between the SS and the army. A caretaker government would eventually have sued for peace. The war would have ended earlier than the spring of 45 in all probability.


Sorry, can't help but feel that the introduction of a Hitler analogy was unecessarily provocative. Some might see an attempt to once again make a comparision that is demonizing and hideously false. Certainly to avoid these kinds of wrong-headed comparisions other more apt analogies might be better.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 30 July 2004 08:55 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There was no comparison being made. He brought Hitler up as an example illustrating the question of whether evil people deserve to die, and whether it is a good thing to kill them.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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posted 30 July 2004 09:20 AM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who'd like to contribute to the fund to get Michelle one of these:

From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 30 July 2004 09:40 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malek:
Recognizing that Israel was created in large part due to the aftermath of the European Holocaust, the question for our time is how much suffering will the Palestinians have to endure before the world takes pity on them and their children? Where do they go as continued settlement encroaches more upon their shrinking territory? Neighboring Arab nations don't want them and their occupiers consider them as sub-human.
They will endure suffering for quite some time, that is... until they accept peace that is unfair to them. And that should not be expected from them. The alternative is a long painful death.
quote:
There was no comparison being made. He brought Hitler up as an example illustrating the question of whether evil people deserve to die, and whether it is a good thing to kill them.
There is differences between Nazi Germany and Israeli Right-Wing Zionist (Likudnicks). Germany had a dictator and stuck with him. Israel votes to change their leader every 2 years.

[ 30 July 2004: Message edited by: Blind_Patriot ]


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Malek
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6497

posted 30 July 2004 11:01 AM      Profile for Malek     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Blind_Patriot
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3830
posted 30 July 2004 09:40
quote: They will endure suffering for quite some time, that is... until they accept peace that is unfair to them. And that should not be expected from them. The alternative is a long painful death.

Magically, a peace will decend upon them if they accept a landscape on their ancestral homelands of barbed wire, concrete walls and guard towers, endless foreign checkpoints between their villages, and being ringed in by foreign armies and weapons pointed inward towards them. And if someone wants to bulldoze a village or farm to make way for more foreign settlers, continual acceptance of this is also necessary for this peace. This is the solution the west is led to believe. Any dissenting opinions on the issue are labelled as anti-semetic.


From: Upper Canada | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 30 July 2004 02:02 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
There was no comparison being made. He brought Hitler up as an example illustrating the question of whether evil people deserve to die, and whether it is a good thing to kill them.
I respectfully disagree. Given the more than numerous concerns expressed regarding Hitler analogies or as you call them "examples" surely on this thread dealing with Israel and Jews it can be seen as overly provocative.

I am really trying to understand your new rules but if Hitler is allowable in this context and not seen as baiting (given the undeniable sensitivities) then it would appear that the rules may be very selective.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 30 July 2004 02:28 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, perhaps I misread the earlier thread, but I thought the Hitler assassination plot was being compared with the extra-judicial killings of Yassin and other terrorist ringleaders, not with a possible plot against Sharon. In any case, any ISRAELI death threats against Sharon have come from the extreme-right, not the left.

You are right that it is always questionable to bring up Hitler comparisons, unless we are discussing the specific subject of totalitarian dictators who commit mass genocides numbering in the millions. Many writers have compared the regimes of Hitler and of Stalin, for example.

The Hitler comparison wouldn't hold water in any case - specifically because Israel is a democracy (though I don't think it is treating Palestinians and especially those in the Occupied Territories in a democratic fashion - there is a long history of formally democratic behaving undemocratically during military occupations or even towards minority groups at home). There is no way Hitler could have been charged and tried by a judge in Germany who thought the dictator was going overboard. The judge would have been summarily executed, sent to a death camp, or forced to commit suicide like war hero Erwin Rommel.

[ 30 July 2004: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 30 July 2004 02:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
I am really trying to understand your new rules but if Hitler is allowable in this context and not seen as baiting (given the undeniable sensitivities) then it would appear that the rules may be very selective.

This has nothing to do with the rules. I didn't say anything about that in my post, and my post was not meant to be interpreted as a moderating post. I was simply disagreeing with your analysis of his post.

That's all I have to say on it. If you have a problem with the moderating, take it to private mail, e-mail Audra, or talk about it in rabble reactions.

[ 30 July 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 30 July 2004 02:42 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Lets get real here. I'm talking about Rantisi and Yassin. Both leaders of Hamas, both known to fabricate, plan and conduct terrorist activities. (That includes having a hand in every Hamas suicide bomber who has caused the deaths of innocent Israelis...an impressive track record of killing hundreds of Jews, Muslims and Christians alike.)


The butcher Sharon is repsonsible for the massacre of civilians in Lebanon. He is responsible for giving rise to the current intifada and has ruled out every possible peace effort. Nethanyahu and others have called for "transfer", ethnic cleansing. These men and so many more of them are clearly terrorists. By supporting them, you support terrorists. There is also much evidence given that the IDF routnely targets children. Wasn't there recently an uproar over a photo of a Palestinian boy tied to a jeep as a human shield? Where is your outrage? Troll.

quote:

I'm impressed with how easily people on this forum excuse mass-murdering terrorists.

Me too. Why do you continue?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 30 July 2004 02:46 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Me too. Why do you continue?

Come on, WingNut. I already told him that his comment was not acceptable. It's also not acceptable for you to engage in tit-for-tat after the fact.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 30 July 2004 03:00 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are right. Sorry.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 30 July 2004 03:02 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 31 July 2004 02:00 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

That's all I have to say on it. If you have a problem with the moderating, take it to private mail, e-mail Audra, or talk about it in rabble reactions.

[ 30 July 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


I shall do that but my experience lately in trying to leave email concerns with either you or Audra is that I receive no reply. Perhaps with your new rules that too will change.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 31 July 2004 02:07 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A) you haven't left a private mail or an e-mail for me since you've been back and since I posted the new rules.

B) Audra's on vacation.

C) I already asked you once to stop going on about it in this thread. Do it again, and I'll consider it trolling and give you a warning. You've had your options - use them. I'm not putting up with the old "divert the thread with whining about moderating decisions" tactic.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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