babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics

Topic Closed  Topic Closed


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Israeli jets violate Lebanese airspace

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Israeli jets violate Lebanese airspace
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 22 July 2004 11:40 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ariel Sharon, the man of peace, seems determined to either destabilize Lebanon or provoke an attack.

quote:
An Israeli military source said the overflights were "a message to the government of Lebanon" to better control the southern border area.

Also on Tuesday, two Israeli soldiers and a Hizb Allah man were killed in southern Lebanon.

The violence erupted a day after a Hizb Allah leader, Ghalib Awwali, was killed by a car bomb in front of his home in the southern suburbs of Beirut.


Al Jazeera


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
wei-chi
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2799

posted 23 July 2004 02:16 PM      Profile for wei-chi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Violations of airspace have been routine for years. This is nothing new.
From: Saskatoon | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 23 July 2004 03:00 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Are those Syrian troops still occupying part of Lebanon?
From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 23 July 2004 05:08 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My, such a cynical lot.

wei-chi:

If it is routine, then it no longer requires comment. Talk about establishing facts on the ground (or in the air, so to speak).

khadiija:

Right you are! So we here should all give up our unqualified support for the Syrian regime . . . oh yeah, no one here supports the Syrian regime. I mean, who would give such unqualified support to an occupying power? Wouldn't that be just blatantly contrary to a belief in democracy and human rights?

hint, hint


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
liminal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5617

posted 23 July 2004 08:46 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post

[ 23 July 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
liminal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5617

posted 23 July 2004 08:50 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Khadiija:
Are those Syrian troops still occupying part of Lebanon?

Are they also "butchering your sisters"?


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 24 July 2004 11:35 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
liminal posted 23

quote:
Are they also "butchering your sisters"?

Some would argue Rape is a better word.

"In Lebanon, unfortunately, rape is alive and well, and this past week has been especially sad for that country in what may be called the week of the Syrian Rape, for it started with the rape of a young girl, and ended with the rape of Lebanon. The rape of a young girl by a Syrian in a Lebanese village is a crime that could happen anywhere in the world. But what does
not happen elsewhere in the world is the forfeiture by the security forces
of their responsibility in protecting the citizens, apprehending the suspect, and conducting an investigation about the crime.

And when, in this climate of insecurity, the villagers took things in their own hands, the police forces ended up, so to speak, apprehending the murder victim while the murderer fled: they arrested the villagers and protected the rapist. One has to understand from all this that the Syrians enjoy immunity from criminal prosecution in Lebanon thanks only to the Syrian occupation of the country. One has also to understand that the revolt by the villagers is really the expression of a collective anger against the occupation, because this episode has been preceded by several clashes
between Syrians and Lebanese during sport matches that cannot be ignored or attributed only to poor sportsmanship.

In addition to the rape of the young girl, this past week also witnessed the rape of our national dignity and collective memory. It was on the 13th of October that the Constitution was amended to enshrine in power those who
welcomed the Syrian rapists on their knees, and to sacrifice one more time those who stood up to them...."

From Human Rights Watch:

"No one dares to say anything. The Syrians feel free to do what they want here, and no one can interfere."

-Palestinian resident of Tripoli, Lebanon, August 1996.

There is a clear pattern to the method of "disappearances" in Lebanon in the cases that Human Rights Watch has documented and examined. First, individuals are seized by Syrian intelligence operatives, usually dressed in plainclothes, sometimes with the participation of their Lebanese counterparts. No written arrest or detention orders are produced at the time of detention. Second, families experience severe suffering following these state-sanctioned abductions because Lebanese and Syrian authorities do not officially provide information about the detention, fate, or whereabouts of the "disappeared." Third, most victims in cases investigated by Human Rights Watch were tortured while in custody in Syrian detention facilities in Lebanon or while in detention in Syria. In some cases documented by Human Rights Watch, the "disappeared" have been pressured by high-ranking Syrian officers to collaborate with Syrian intelligence in Lebanon."

This too:

In contrast to the cases described above, Syrian agents in Lebanon have also taken individuals into custody on their own. Gabi Karam's sister Magi `Aql Karam was detained and "disappeared" in March 1997, three months after her brother's "disappearance." Magi Karam, who was born in 1953, lives with her husband and six children in the Beqaa' valley. According to the written complaint filed by her lawyer Muhamed Mugraby, Magi Karam reported to Syrian security forces in Chtoura, in the Beqaa', on March 1, 1997, after she was summoned there for questioning about an unspecified matter. Karam, who had previously been arrested and tortured, reportedly was terrified.12 Mugraby filed a written complaint of unlawful detention with public prosecutor Adnan Addoum on March 15, 1997.13 He received no written reply to this complaint, and there is no evidence that Lebanese authorities began an investigation of this "disappearance." Magi Karam was released from Syrian custody on March 27, 1997. After her release, it was learned that she had been held incommunicado in the Palestine Branch of Military Intelligence in Damascus.

Or how about this one:

SYRIA/LEBANON: AN ALLIANCE BEYOND THE LAW - Enforced Disappearances in Lebanon

No one in Lebanon will talk about the reality. Our government is not a government. Syrian intelligence forces are controlling this country. We are moving toward a police state. Here in Lebanon, there are masters and servants. Lebanese government officials are the servants of Syria.
Indeed, public discussion of "disappearances" is largely taboo in Lebanon, and efforts to address the problem generally, or individual cases specifically, are not undertaken. Families of the "disappeared" typically are afraid to come forward with information for fear of worsening the situation for their loved ones or putting themselves at risk of harassment or reprisal. They have been unable to secure assistance from Lebanese government officials or Lebanese nongovernmental organizations to obtain information about, access to, or the release of their relatives. The son of one Lebanese who was seized and "disappeared" in the early 1990s, and is believed to be held in Syria, told Human Rights Watch in 1997 that no one in Lebanon, including former colleagues of his father who now serve in high-level government positions, would talk to him about the case. The son said that he met privately with President Elias Hrawi in 1992, who told him "there is nothing that we can do."

Human Rights Watch has written to Lebanese and Syrian government officials four times to express concern, to request information, and to recommend steps to remedy the problem of the continuing "disappearances." These letters -- to Lebanese Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri in October 1996 and March 1997, and to Syrian President Hafez al-Asad in November 1996 and March 1997 -- have gone unanswered, and persons continue to be detained and "disappeared" on Lebanese soil. Families continue to wait for news, and official confirmation, that their relatives are dead or alive. To end this agony for the families, Human Rights Watch urged President Asad in November 1996 to disclose fully the names and other information about non-Syrians held in Syrian custody in Lebanon and Syria. We received no reply to our letter.

The Lebanese government clearly has ceded certain police powers to Syrian intelligence forces inside Lebanon -- in practice if not also by secret agreement. By providing an effective guarantee of impunity for human rights abuses under this arrangement, Lebanese authorities must bear a measure of direct responsibility for these abuses. Lebanese complicity in abuses by Syrian forces sometimes goes beyond official acquiescence and becomes direct collaboration with Syrian forces in carrying out reported "disappearances." To end complicity in torture, "disappearance," and other abuses by Syrian forces in Lebanon, it is incumbent upon Lebanese authorities to establish enforceable procedures under which Syrian forces present and operating in Lebanon can be held fully accountable for their actions under both Lebanese and international law. Lebanese authorities should begin to address this problem by ending immediately their silence concerning abuses being committed by Syrian forces on Lebanese territory, and by carrying out independent and effective investigations of "disappearances" in such a manner as to bring the perpetrators to justice.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 24 July 2004 11:39 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
liminal posted 23 July 2004
quote:
Are they also "butchering your sisters"?

And then there is this one:

Syria/Lebanon: Custody deaths need investigating
Friday, 11 July 2003, 8:55 am
Press Release: Amnesty International

Syria/Lebanon: The authorities must urgently investigate cases of death in custody
Following reports on the recent death in Syrian custody of Lebanese national Joseph Huways, and the recent denial of the Syrian authorities of the presence of any Lebanese political detainees in Syria, Amnesty International today called on the Syrian authorities to open an investigation into the case and allow prisoners access to lawyers, families and medical treatment.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 24 July 2004 11:43 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
liminal posted 23 July 2004
quote:
Are they also "butchering your sisters"?

Another "Welcome Syria" report:

Syria’s unwelcome stay in the country has severely damaged Lebanon’s independence in virtually every sphere of life. Economically, for instance, 1 million Syrian workers find jobs in Lebanon; at the expense, of course, of Lebanese nationals. Politically, Syrian infiltration is notorious: the Lebanese government is essentially a Syrian puppet. Since 1982, just one president (Elias Hraoui) has made it to the end of his term; thanks to his collaboration with the Syrian regime. Militarily, around 25,000 Syrian soldiers dwell on Lenanese soil. In addition, Syrian secret agents roam the streets of Beirut day and night, eavesdropping on conversations in search of a rebellious word. Sometimes, the activities of Syrian intelligence agents turn public. A salient case—reported in local newspapers—took place in August 2001 when 150 Syrian agent-provocateurs infiltrated a crowd at a rally against Syrian occupation beating and arresting the demonstrators. According to media reports, ambulances carrying the wounded to nearby hospitals were initially denied access.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 24 July 2004 11:45 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Khadija, if you're going to cut and paste huge amounts of text into your posts, could you at least provide the links?

If anything, being able to judge the sources of your cut and pastes would help me to determine whether your latest oratory is worth reading in full...or not.

[ 24 July 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 24 July 2004 11:45 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does Syria's presence there justify Israeli attacks on Lebanon, or is Syria helping to prevent another Sabra and Shatila??
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 24 July 2004 11:49 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
liminal posted 23 July 2004
quote:
Are they also "butchering your sisters"?

Amnesty has lovely things to say about the way Lebanese are treated by their Syrian pals:

Hundreds of Palestinians and Jordanians arrested for political reasons since the 1980s in Lebanon, Syria or at the Syrian border with Jordan continued to be held, mostly in incommunicado detention (see previous Amnesty International Reports). They included Mustafa Dib Khalil (known as Abu Ta'an), a Palestinian in his sixties who was arrested in 1983 in Tripoli, north Lebanon, by a breakaway Palestinian group and subsequently handed to Syrian authorities; and Sa'id al-Hatamleh, a Jordanian who was arrested in Syria in 1985 in connection with the unauthorized Jordanian Revolutionary Party and reportedly sentenced to 10 years' imprisonment. Mustafa Dib Khalil was held for eight years in solitary confinement and had been held incommunicado apparently without charge or trial for most of the past 15 years. Both were apparently held in Sednaya prison at the end of the year.

Scores of Lebanese political prisoners continued to be held in Syria either without charge or trial, or after grossly unfair trials. They were either captured or abducted in Lebanon during the civil war there from 1975 to 1990, or were arrested by Syrian forces operating in Lebanon and taken to Syria after 1990. Among the prisoners were Najib Yusuf Jarmani, who was arrested in January 1997 from his house in Ba'bdat, Lebanon, and apparently transferred a few days later to Syria; and Samir 'Ali Hassan, who was arrested by Syrian intelligence forces in connection with Harakat al-Tawhid al-Islami, Islamic Unification Movement, in 1989. Both were reportedly still held in Sednaya prison at the end of the year. Bashir al-Khatib, who had been detained in Syria since 1996 (see Amnesty International Report 1998), was among the 121 Lebanese released in March.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 24 July 2004 11:55 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Sorry,

This one is from Amnesty International

Amnesty International

27 May 2004

Lebanon: Call for independent investigation into killings of protestors
Amnesty International urges the Lebanese authorities to carry out a prompt and impartial investigation into the killing of three civilians by Lebanese soldiers during a demonstration today in Beirut. At least 17 people, including five soldiers and a press photographer, were also injured and two military vehicles were set on fire.

Based on information available, Amnesty International is concerned that the use of force employed by Lebanese security forces may have been excessive and in violation of international law.

As part of nationwide protests against an increase in petrol prices, hundreds of protestors were marching through the southern Beirut neighbourhood of Hay al-Sellom. Reports indicate that protestors were met with water cannons, retaliated by throwing stones, and were then fired upon by soldiers. While al-Manar television has shown pictures of soldiers firing into the air, it is unclear whether this was before or after shots had already been fired at protestors.

Under the United Nations Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms, law enforcement officials shall, as far as possible, apply non-violent means before resorting to the use of force and firearms; give a clear warning of their intent to use firearms, with sufficient time for the warning to be observed; and that intentional lethal use of firearms may only be made when strictly unavoidable in order to protect life. At this stage, however, there is insufficient evidence to suggest that the lives of soldiers or others were under threat and that the resort to lethal force was necessary.

"We urge the Lebanese authorities to review their policing methods at demonstrations and to establish an independent and impartial enquiry into today's events," said Amnesty International. "Those suspected of having committed serious crimes and human rights violations, whether protestors or security officers, should be brought to justice."

As far as Amnesty International is aware, no such investigation was carried out into an incident on 7 April 2004, when at least 10 people were injured after Lebanese security forces charged at, and used batons against, peaceful demonstrators. The protestors were attempting to march to the UN's Economic and Social Commission for Western Asia (ESCWA) building in Beirut, to submit a petition calling for the release of Lebanese detainees from Syrian prisons. Human rights defender Ghazi 'Aad was one of those beaten and his wheelchair was damaged.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 24 July 2004 11:59 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Two previous accounts of the Syrian Occupation and their abuses came from here.

Human Rights Watch


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 25 July 2004 12:01 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
And can you provide a précis of that? I can cut and paste too, Khadija. A discussion that does not make.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 25 July 2004 12:13 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
al-Qa'bong posted 24 July 2004
quote:
Does Syria's presence there justify Israeli attacks on Lebanon, or is Syria helping to prevent another Sabra and Shatila??

Warning Sounded of Potential Lebanese Mass Graves in Syria
by: NaharNet on 6/13/2003


Three human rights organizations have appealed from Beirut for an international endeavor to rescue many Lebanese allegedly held in Syrian jails, warning of family fears of potential mass graves in Syria similar to those recently discovered in post-Saddam Hussein Iraq.

The plea was issued by The Lebanese Human Rights Organization, Solida-France and Solid for the Support of Imprisoned and Banished Lebanese at a news conference in the Lebanese capital Wednesday, An Nahar reported on Thursday.

They said in a joint communiqué that Syrian authorities were still denying the presence of any Lebanese prisoners in Syria although several international organizations have established that many Lebanese were still held in Syrian prisons.

'We fear that the Lebanese detainees in Syria would share the same fate of thousands Iraqis during the Baathist regime,' the three organizations said, deploring 'efforts to transform the cause of the missing Lebanese into one of ghosts.'

Representatives from the three human rights groups had lately visited Damascus, seeking meetings with Syrian government officials to determine the fate of imprisoned Lebanese. But they were denied access to President Assad or any other Syrian official, the communiqué said.
United Australia Lebanese Movement


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 25 July 2004 12:20 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
And can you provide a précis of that? I can cut and paste too, Khadija. A discussion that does not make.

...and, quite frankly, I wonder at your choice of the handle "Khadija". Isn't a vehemently pro-Israeli poster who chooses the name of Mohammed's wife as a handle a form of trolling?

[ 25 July 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 25 July 2004 12:28 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post

[ 25 July 2004: Message edited by: Khadiija ]


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 25 July 2004 12:36 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks, Khadj...by the way, you're an idiot.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 25 July 2004 12:46 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
The struggle of Lebanon to preserve its national identity and political independence has, in particular, faced the hegemonic ambition of Syria. Since the 1970s, Damascus has succeeded to implement an incremental, yet systematic policy of occupation over Lebanon that has transformed the political, social, and economic character of the country. The Syrian occupation, calling it by its proper appellation, was consummated in 1989 with the Taif Accord and in 1990 with the removal of General (and Prime Minister) Michel Aoun from the Ba’abda presidential palace and with the full conquest of Beirut, Lebanon’s capital.

Syrian occupation employed a wide range of policy means to transform Lebanon into a “client state” and a Syrian political satellite. By means of military control and political penetration, media repression and alien colonization, Lebanon has lost its independence. Under foreign rule within the matrix of a foreign-manipulated police state, the Lebanese suffer from Arabization and Syrianization that deny the people, especially the Maronite Christians, their freedom and dignity. Many have been forced into exile across the countries and continents of the Lebanese diaspora.

Syria’s occupation regime in Lebanon suggests comparison with the Anschluss of 1936, the Munich capitulation of 1938, and the setting up of the Vichy regime of 1940. Stalinism as a terror state model is also evocative of Lebanon’s pitiful subjugation about which, however, the international community shows hardly any concern.

The collapse of a free Lebanon is part of the expanding sweep of Islamic power and the decay of Christian civilization in the Middle East. Perhaps, under circumstances of upheaval in Syria, Israeli military policy, and revivalism among the Lebanese, foreign occupation of Lebanon may come to an end.

The Syrian OCCUPATION of Lebanon

[ 25 July 2004: Message edited by: Khadiija ]


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 25 July 2004 12:51 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
No, no...you should have done a Google search with the word "précis". "Executive summary" just led you to a cut and paste that I still find too long.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 25 July 2004 01:10 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are they also "butchering your sisters"?


SYRIAN HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IN OCCUPIED LEBANON


SYRIAN HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IN OCCUPIED LEBANON

According to the last annual report by Freedom House entitled “The World’s Most Repressive Regimes,” the Syrian occupation force since 1990 has “consolidated its control over Lebanese state institutions, particularly the presidency, the judiciary, and the security forces. […] Syrian-controlled security agencies monitor the telephones of both cabinet ministers and political dissidents.”

Syria’s domination of Lebanon translates into a daily assault on freedom and democracy. For example, in September 2002, security forces closed Murr Television, an independent station that had covered government crackdowns and given voice to political dissidents. In that same year, two prominent public figures, including a student opposition activist, were assassinated, reportedly after quarrelling with pro-Syrian politicians. This kind of Syrian repression and intimidation of the Lebanese people occurs every day.

SYRIAN HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IN OCCUPIED LEBANON


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 25 July 2004 01:16 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There will always be an argument over who invented the word "photomontage". What is not at issue is that it was one of the members of the Berlin Dada group: the debate is about which one.

From Cut and Paste; A History of Photomontage


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 25 July 2004 01:23 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Complain here
From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 25 July 2004 10:27 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, what exactly does Syria have to do with Israeli jets overflying Lebanon? Or if you're trying to make the point that Syria's the problem, shouldn't they be overflyng Syria as well?
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
liminal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5617

posted 25 July 2004 06:59 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
My, my, Khadiija. Trolling at its best.

Let's see, ever since you registered with babble, you have gone out of your way to implement a certain propaganda to denigrate Lebanon and the Lebanese. You started with a dubious ranking that placed Lebanon behind Somalia, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan. When this did not hold weight (come on, Saudi Arabia), you forged a campaign on behalf of "butchered sisters in Lebanon" who are murdered in scores. This was also debunked since you had hoped no one would actually simply read the report you've posted (not to mention have some information about the Lebanese legal apparatus), which belies your outrageous smearing campaign. So now, you gave up on conjuring intrinsic evil within Lebanon, you have turned to Syria. Again, I am disgusted how people (read:women, civilians) and their plights mean nothing to you except fuel to attack many, in order to whitewash one party in particular(or country, wink wink). Do you honestly believe that people will buy that you lobby for humanitarian causes, when your epiphany only manifests when Israel's atrocious deeds are displayed, and can not be defended, thus smokescreen.

About Syria: Where do I begin? Has Syria ever claimed to be a democracy or respect human rights? Everyone knows what Syria is, and thus it hardly has any apologists, where as other Middle Eastern countries have done commensurate things, but claimed to be democracies (the "only democracy in the Middle East" in fact), and have a myriad of advocates who go out of their way to skew the truth, and maintain a halo. Syria has none, and is worthy of reproach, and the “sick” leftists have not wasted a single line here in defense of its indefensible dictatorship, or its hegemony in Lebanon. In most of the incidents reported by the links you’ve provided, HOWEVER, there is more than meets the eye. You employ the Guardians of the Cedars website in your bibliography, and not only are the reports written by an Israeli (not in Lebanon), but are run by a militia (GOTC) whose motto is: “It is the duty of every Lebanese to kill a Palestinian”. Of course, their leader, Etien Sakr, who resides in Tel Aviv with his Israeli superiors, stated during the Lebanese civil war that even Palestinian kids should be killed, since one day, they would grow up. I commend you on your supporting links. Please, use more of them. It shows more about you, than what you’re trying to shamelessly convey. To get back to the issue of Syrian hegemony in Lebanon: Syria’s tyranny has tried its best to import its domestic ruling techniques to Lebanon, but has failed miserably, due to Lebanese resilience. Lebanese newspapers are spearheads to maintain Lebanese democracy, and not only do they attack Syria’s intervention in Lebanese internal affairs, but make sure to report every single violation that takes place. In other words, all of the incidents you provided are published daily in Lebanese media, and nation wide campaigns to fight them are daily occurrences, despite the Syrian attempt to stifle them. In the “banana republic” of Lebanon, Amnesty International, and scores of international organizations for human rights, maintain offices in Beirut, and most of the incidents they report are taken from Lebanese media, and direct investigation on Lebanese soil. All this, and people’s ability to elect ( even anti-Syrian MPs), and still have a loud voice of protest, gives Lebanon deservedly some of the characteristics of democracy. I don’t care the least about Syria, and I will not attempt to polish its tarnished image, but I have some faith in Lebanon’s ability to hold on to democratic trappings, despite constant offensives from both its belligerent neighbors.

This brings me to Israel in its occupation of Lebanon. How come tears were not shed over the Israeli agents and operatives that roamed the villages of South Lebanon, and kidnapped thousands of civilians (whose fate till today remains unknown) without any legitimacy. The bulk of the Lebanese “deseparasedos” during the 1975-1990 war were apprehended during the Israeli occupation (not only the South, but also Beirut) by Israelis, and their underdogs, the Phalangists (West Beirut, 1982-1983 in particular). What about the Khyam prison in Southern Lebanon, where even the Red Cross was hardly permitted to visit, and where ubiquitous torture of detainees was performed with a ferocity that emulated the best of the Spanish Inquisitors and the Nazis? What about the blanket bombing that left tens of thousands of Lebanese (and Palestinian) civilians in mass graves? What about razing villages to the ground in Southern Lebanon, and kicking people out of their homes, denying them return to their own lands? Many a Lebanese family has no clue whether its members kidnapped by the Israelis are alive or dead.
A behavior of such caliber is expected from the Syrian dictatorship, and almost unanimously condemned. Even the Syrian propaganda can’t hide it. Equivalent behavior from Israeli “democracy” and “purity of arms” is either suppressed, or shamelessly twisted in order to show Israel as a “light among nations” and a victim, but the benefactors of this “democracy” can not be silenced forever.

Khadiija, my dear troll, it is with utmost delight that I will PLONK you. You have earned it.

[ 25 July 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 25 July 2004 07:08 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What a skillful, informative thrashing! Keep up the good work, liminal.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 25 July 2004 07:30 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
What a skillful, informative thrashing! Keep up the good work, liminal.

Seconded.

May I add only this: It is sad but true that anyone who is faithful to Amnesty International can copy and paste on to these threads stories that should horrify any democrat, anyone who believes in human decency, concerning just about any country you can think of, including Canada, of course.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 25 July 2004 08:34 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whoa.

Wish I'had done that.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 25 July 2004 10:34 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whoa redux. A great and effective rant.

You might have to take back your PLONK, though, liminal, as Audra doesn't like it.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 25 July 2004 11:33 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Khadiija,

Ignore them! You won big time. What a bunch of sore losers. Liminal's response is to plonk and walk away with his tail between his legs. Let's see how long he stays silent when you keep on bringing up the Syrian occupation of Lebanon.

The reason they are all so upset is because you showed them for what they are. All their crying for the "occupation" of Palestine and not a tear shed for the atrocities that are happening in Lebanon or the occupation of Lebanon. Liminal is the most upset because you brought up excellent sources when he made that terrible comment about your sisters being butchered. His explanation for the Syrian behaviour is appalling.

"Has Syria ever claimed to be a democracy or respect human rights?"

How lame can you get.

Continue to expose them. Let them plonk you, call you names and accuse you of "smearing" Lebanon, the bastion of human rights in the Middle East. It would have been nice if Michelle would have stepped in and said something when someone called you an idiot but she must have been away or busy. Don't let them stop you from standing up for what is right.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 26 July 2004 12:23 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
Ignore them! You won big time. What a bunch of sore losers. Liminal's response is to plonk and walk away with his tail between his legs. Let's see how long he stays silent when you keep on bringing up the Syrian occupation of Lebanon.

I do believe I heard something woosh over your head.

You have utterly missed the point.

Permit me to explain this: many pro-Israeli commentators often try to deflect attention from the basically inhuman nature of the Occupation by waving your hands and saying "See? SEE?!? Syria does it too! Go whine at them!"

Hint: Instead of trying to deflect attention away from Israel, and simply blindly insisting that Israel is a million miles away, morally speaking, from any of those grubby Arabic countries (which, by the way, you love lumping into one big blob), you might try this...

Asking yourselves why Israel is even acting like a country which it is supposed to be not possibly comparable.

And to compound the irony, it is clear that the Syrian occupation is even less effective at controlling the government of Lebanon than Israel's occupation is at controlling the Palestinian "Authority".

But then, y'know, if all you can do is claim that Israel is marginally better than other countries which come in almost dead last on almost every quality of life statistic, you have a pretty piss-poor basis on which to claim the moral sanctity of Israel.

Not that I've ever beem much impressed by such claims in the first place, given that even industrial nations such as the USA can turn a blind eye to appalling behavior among its government employees (the prison system, Abu Ghraib are two prominent examples).

Let's try again, shall we?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 26 July 2004 12:35 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Don't let them stop you from standing up for what is right.

An interesting choice of words.

You might expect, Starbuck, that in spite of Syria's human rights record, there are Lebanese who don't mind that they have helped defang the Phalange.

Furthermore, you might expect that people who participate in a leftist discussion board aren't going to have many good things to say about either the Phalange or their sponsors, the Israelis, any more than we'd have good things to say about Francisco Franco's Falange or his sponsors, Italian Fascists and German Nazis.

Moreover, many Lebanese are probably relieved that Syria and Hizb Allah are protecting them from being bombed and massacred by the Israelis and their Phalangist allies.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 26 July 2004 12:53 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, Starbuck, you pinhead doofus, I was drawing attention to the Syrian occupation of Lebanon as far back as 1990, during the buildup to Gulf War I. I used it as an example (along with many others, such as the OT, East Timor, Western Sahara, Namibia, etc.) of occupations which nobody seemed to give a shit about, unlike the frothing outrage and crocodile tears shed over Saddam's occupation of Kuwait.

Now, any other irrelevancies you and Khadiija'd like to point to to distract attention from the misbehaviour of your chosen object of worship? I hear there's terrible things going on in Equatorial Guinea. Maybe you can use that next time.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6459

posted 26 July 2004 01:03 AM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Furthermore, you might expect that people who participate in a leftist discussion board aren't going to have many good things to say about either the Phalange or their sponsors, the Israelis, any more than we'd have good things to say about Francisco Franco's Falange or his sponsors, Italian Fascists and German Nazis.


Is Babble really a "leftist discussion board"? It appears more to the centre to me.


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 26 July 2004 01:40 AM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
I have been waiting for DrConway to wade in . Welcome back from Israel!

How was your tour of the fence? Or were you there checking the excess radioactivity in the Negev? Were you able to squeeze in the inspection of that cemetery in Jerusalem you seemed to know oh so much about? It turns out you knew nothing about it at all.

Tell us again why the temple is not being rebuilt because of a cemetery? I loved that insight from the desk of DrConway.

Quote from DrConway:

"which, right now, can't be built on since the only direction in which to rebuild the temple is across a grave-site"

Let's try again shall we?


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 26 July 2004 01:44 AM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
beluga2,

I was plonked by you on July 13 so I won't bother responding.

Good bye.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 26 July 2004 01:52 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Well, I didn't plonk you, so I can assertively say that you are a pinheaded doofus, Starfuck.

Not to mention a Khadija-idiot high-fiving cretin.

I could go on, but I don't want to be rude.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 26 July 2004 02:02 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is Babble really a "leftist discussion board"? It appears more to the centre to me.

Yeah, I suppose those "left-liberals" *gag* dilute the ideological slant around here.

Should I have written "leftish"?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 26 July 2004 02:12 AM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Well, I didn't plonk you, so I can assertively say that you are a pinheaded doofus, Starfuck.

Not to mention a Khadija-idiot high-fiving cretin.

I could go on, but I don't want to be rude.


Well, it looks like the Syrian occupation of Lebanon hit a nerve here. The truth hurts.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6459

posted 26 July 2004 02:16 AM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:

Quote from DrConway:

"which, right now, can't be built on since the only direction in which to rebuild the temple is across a grave-site"


Hey what thread is this from? I wanna read that interesting thread.


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 26 July 2004 02:20 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, it looks like the Syrian occupation of Lebanon hit a nerve here. The truth hurts.

Well, to tell you the truth, I never pay attention to the discussions in the Middle East forum, except when I see frauds like Khadija cutting and pasting like there's no tomorrow, and doofii such as yourself coming off like the Iraqi information minister (..comical Ali? I forget).

So...uh..no, nothing hit a nerve, StarGelding.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6459

posted 26 July 2004 02:32 AM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

Well, to tell you the truth, I never pay attention to the discussions in the Middle East forum, except when I see frauds like Khadija cutting and pasting like there's no tomorrow, and doofii such as yourself coming off like the Iraqi information minister (..comical Ali? I forget).

So...uh..no, nothing hit a nerve, StarGelding.


Hahaha ... Hinterland can be pretty darn cranky about "trolling". Coming from first hand experience.


And, No I won't shut up, Hinterland!

[ 26 July 2004: Message edited by: Zahid Zaman ]


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 26 July 2004 03:30 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zahid Zaman:

Hey what thread is this from? I wanna read that interesting thread.


Zahid Zaman, don't bother. DrConway enlightened us with his deep understanding of Jerusalem and the temple mount:

"because under Sharon the Israeli government will want to rebuild the old Israeli temple (which, right now, can't be built on since the only direction in which to rebuild the temple is across a grave-site)"


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 26 July 2004 03:39 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And, No I won't shut up, Hinterland!

Oh, I'm pretty sure you will there, Zahid.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 26 July 2004 04:34 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, are you folks, Starbuck and Khadiija done acting like a bunch of hee-haw yukity-yuk blowhards? You guys remind me of the dumb-assed high school basketball jocks I knew who would all get together and start puffing each other up and slapping each others' backs over a mistake by someone else, and feeling mighty big because they thought they were just so cool yukking it up.

Hint: To those of us who aren't in your clique, you just look like a bunch of shit-tossing monkeys trying to act like "king of the hill".

More like "Asses of the hill", in my opinion.

(I notice none of you denied that the prophecy requires the "messiah" to enter from the east, through which there is a gravesite. Ergo, you do not dispute my contention that rebuilding the temple in that direction would be pointless from a prophecy viewpoint, even if Likud is supported by fundamentalist Orthodox Jews. But I wouldn't expect you to consider that level of nuance, given that y'all are too busy acting like you think you've chopped me down with one blow. )

[ 26 July 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
liminal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5617

posted 26 July 2004 04:44 AM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
Khadiija,

Ignore them! You won big time. What a bunch of sore losers. Liminal's response is to plonk and walk away with his tail between his legs. Let's see how long he stays silent when you keep on bringing up the Syrian occupation of Lebanon.


Oh no, I see the big guns have been summoned.
Here comes the mighty Starbuck. I’d better hide before he unleashes his superpowers of slander, cut-and-paste of posts from ancient threads (and then flooding unrelated threads with an assortment of those posts), and quoting dubious sources in his campaign of pro-Israel propaganda. I will take a shot at those superpowers.

Re: tails between legs.
From the thread Israel ordered to Dismantle Wall:
Starbucks posted 12 July 2004 04:05 AM

quote:
Don't worry baldfresh, I will continue to ignore your "indisputible facts".

Tell us more about the Zionist Entity and how they target innocent victims, I love hearing your stories.

PLONK


Starbucks posted 12 July 2004 01:26 PM

quote:
Scout, after your moronic post on Jly 7 2004 2:40 pm I have one word for you:

*PLONK*


Could that be...gasp...Starbuck plonking? The horror. Your tail is wiggling freely, Starbuck.

What else? Are you going to accuse me of writing like a freshman (as you did to Courage), or are you going to strip me of my religious belief when I don't share your political opinions (as you did to Josh)? You know how effective Ad hominem is in logical arguments . I know, maybe you'd conjure a sketchy source on Mother Theresa's lobbying for Zionism (like you did with Martin Luther King).

The thing that upsets Israel's mouthpieces (on this board and beyond), is that Syria succeeded where Israel failed miserably. Lebanon should have been their satellite country, not Syria's. The "only democracy in the Middle East" was so keen on respecting Lebanese democracy in 1982 that it positioned tanks outside the Fayadiyeh Barracks (where the MPs summoned since the parliament in the centre of the city was in accessible), and let its underdogs, the Phalangists, drag reluctant MPs at gun point in order to get its sockpuppit, Bachir Gemayel, a war criminal abhored by the majority of the Lebanese, elected as president of the republic. Damn Syrians for getting away with similar deeds. This is not to mention deluging the Lebanese markets with Israeli merchandize (at the expense of Lebanese products). Did I talk about doing door to door searches to arrest Lebanese and Palestinians? Thousands whose fate remains unknown to this day. What about anti-Israel reporters being harrassed by Isreali operatives??

Was that Syria, a repressive tyranny? No, it's "the light among nations" and the fiefdom of democracy, Israel. Did you lose sleep over the Lebanese ordeal in the 1980s, Starbuck, or were you concerned about how the Lebanon invasion was corrupting valiant Israeli soldiers??


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
wei-chi
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2799

posted 26 July 2004 04:50 AM      Profile for wei-chi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If it is routine, then it no longer requires comment. Talk about establishing facts on the ground (or in the air, so to speak).

My point was in respond to Al Q, who suggested that this was part of some Sharon plan to "destabilize" Lebanon. Since it is routine, it will hardly destabilise Lebanon.

Perhaps if Lebanon could prevent Hezbollah from firing those Katusha rockets from the Lebanese side, then Sharon could stop bombing Hezbollah.


From: Saskatoon | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5864

posted 26 July 2004 09:11 AM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by wei-chi:
My point was in respond to Al Q, who suggested that this was part of some Sharon plan to "destabilize" Lebanon. Since it is routine, it will hardly destabilise Lebanon.

I don't know if its part of any plan or not (I'm not well versed on the situation being discussed, so I'll sit on the fences for this one) but it does seem to me that just because an action is routine that doesn't render it ineligible for being part of a destabilization agenda. It may not be overnight destabliilztion, but then again short of a coup when is breaking down a government ever instant? (And even violent revolutions usually have complex and long simmering underlying forces, actions, and memes)


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 26 July 2004 10:54 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:
Syria succeeded where Israel failed miserably.

You call this success?


An unknown number of Lebanese citizens and stateless Palestinians are imprisoned in Syria: some of them "disappeared" in Lebanon as long ago as the 1980s. Lebanese citizens and stateless Palestinians continue to "disappear" in Lebanon, taken into custody there by Syrian security forces and then transferred to and detained in Syria, perpetuating a climate of fear. This report includes detailed information about three "disappearances" that occurred in 1997, between January and March, one that took place in July 1996, and another that dates back to September 1992. The report also includes information about "disappearances" of Palestinian residents of Beirut and Tripoli in 1995 and 1996, and testimony from Lebanese and Palestinians who were "disappeared" at various times between the mid-1970s through late 1993.

The seizures of these individuals take place outside the law. As the Beirut Bar Association reported in April 1997: "No existing legislation or bilateral treaty allows such conduct." Moreover, victims do not benefit from the protection of the law. There are no effective official government mechanisms -- in Lebanon or in Syria -- for families to learn of the whereabouts of their relatives and to seek legal remedy. Human Rights Watch has also obtained first-hand testimony indicating that Syrian intelligence forces have detained some Lebanese and held them incommunicado -- in Syrian detention facilities in Lebanon, and in Syria -- in order to pressure them to collaborate with Syrian intelligence in Lebanon.

Syria/Lebanon--Disappearances in Lebanon by Syrian Security Forces

Yes, I agree, the Syrian occupation of Lebanon has been successful at terrorizing a population. Way to go Liminal!


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 26 July 2004 11:28 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We hear reports of Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation. I've read accounts of a resistance group, Hizb Allah, which was created in reaction to the Israeli occpation of southern Lebanon, and which drove the Israelis out of that country.

Why do I never read about the Lebanese resistance to Syrian occupation?

Pro-Arab media bias, perhaps?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 26 July 2004 11:51 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:

Are they also "butchering your sisters"?


Troll.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 26 July 2004 12:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MyName:

Troll.


Looking in a mirror just now, are you, MyName?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
wei-chi
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2799

posted 26 July 2004 01:13 PM      Profile for wei-chi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't know if its part of any plan or not (I'm not well versed on the situation being discussed, so I'll sit on the fences for this one) but it does seem to me that just because an action is routine that doesn't render it ineligible for being part of a destabilization agenda. It may not be overnight destabliilztion, but then again short of a coup when is breaking down a government ever instant? (And even violent revolutions usually have complex and long simmering underlying forces, actions, and memes)

You're not necessarily wrong. But let me play devil's advocate here: why on earth would Israel want to destabilize Lebanon? It makes no sense, they just withdrew from Lebanon!

In this case, Israel's responses have been by-the-book porportional resonses. If anything that has a stabilizing effect on the region.

Israel routinely crosses the Area of Separation in the Golan Heights against Syria, as well. But there has been stability there for over a generation, even without "peace".

Why are Hezbollah firing rockets at Northern Israel? Well, that's more complicated.


From: Saskatoon | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 26 July 2004 02:05 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Why do I never read about the Lebanese resistance to Syrian occupation?

Lebanese citizens and stateless Palestinians continue to "disappear" in Lebanon, taken into custody there by Syrian security forces and then transferred to and detained in Syria, perpetuating a climate of fear.

Syria/Lebanon--Disappearances in Lebanon by Syrian Security Forces

Could it be FEAR of "disappearing" and being "transferred" to Syria?


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 26 July 2004 02:42 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah -- just like in the U.S.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6350

posted 26 July 2004 03:37 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post
I had many Lebanese friends in Montreal. Many had relatives who had been killed or "disappeared" by Syrian forces or their political allies in Lebanon.

I guess human rights abuses are only worth commenting on if the bad guys are Israelis.

Human rights are human rights, I had thought.

Good work Khadija for informing others of what happened to my friends' families.


From: King & Bay (downtown Toronto) - I am King of the World!!! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6350

posted 26 July 2004 03:57 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post
We should have a thread where people can post human rights reports for all 22 or 23 Middle East countries.

I think that would provide balance and realism to the discussions. This section is called "Middle East" but it reads more as a forum for people who dislike the Israelis.

(I dislike the Israelis' policies too but it is bit unbalanced to call this the "Middle East forum" when other countries in the region can often be far worse, yet few ever comment on them and those who do comment are attacked and insulted repeatedly)

Darfur anyone?


From: King & Bay (downtown Toronto) - I am King of the World!!! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 26 July 2004 03:59 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is so true.

There have been so many discussions on babble wherein we all talked so laudatorily of Syria. Gosh, but so many babblers have spent so much time telling us how much they approve of Syria. That must be one of our favourite topics.

Mind you: there have been other threads, about Syria, as about Saudi Arabia, Sudan, all the Central Asian republics, Pakistan, etc, about all those places, started by lefty babblers who are definitely not cheerleaders for any of the regimes currently in power in those places. Those threads always start off looking interesting ... but then they sink ... because so few ever write to them.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6350

posted 26 July 2004 04:08 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post
OK. Never mind. I get the message.
From: King & Bay (downtown Toronto) - I am King of the World!!! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 26 July 2004 04:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Critical Mass, I am not trying to silence anyone.

I just don't like to see babble, or babblers, maligned unfairly.

You go ahead and say what you have to say -- as long as you don't claim silly things, like this:

quote:
I guess human rights abuses are only worth commenting on if the bad guys are Israelis.

Look around you, CM. The refutations are everywhere. If you have been reading nothing but the hot-button topics, well then -- that would be your problem, wouldn't it?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6350

posted 26 July 2004 04:34 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post
The refutations are not everywhere.

As I wrote, I get the message. Don't need to rub it in and try to intimidate and silence people. I will do the reasonable thing and stay away from the Middle East forum. Don't need the grief and the insults.


From: King & Bay (downtown Toronto) - I am King of the World!!! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 26 July 2004 04:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass:
The refutations are not everywhere.

As I wrote, I get the message. Don't need to rub it in and try to intimidate and silence people. I will do the reasonable thing and stay away from the Middle East forum. Don't need the grief and the insults.


Well, aren't you special?

Sheesh. I write back to you as generously as I can, pointing out the problem, and you get all macho?

Look, CM: NOBODY needs the grief. NOBODY. And yet the grief continues. This is not a story about you. Ok? Like everyone else, you would be welcomed as a narrator of a small bit of it, but that's it.

There are two obvious reasons why the Middle East forum is so filled with threads about Israel/Palestine -- why the forum was created in the first place.

1. In the autumn of 2001, a few posters showed up on babble who clearly had two purposes: to police babble for anti-Semitism; and to act as apologists for Israel. If those agents had not been here, I promise you that we would have had fewer threads on Israel/Palestine, and most would be one-tenth of the length they are now.

A lot of babblers who really knew very little about the Middle East at the time got drawn into these debates because they were so deeply insulted at being policed by people who don't really care about this forum. If some of us sound tetchy, that is part of the explanation.

2. The second obvious reason that people debate the Middle East so heatedly is that it is the proxy war for the so-called war on terror. All our lives now depend on what it is done in the Middle East and Central Asia, and at the moment, it looks to some of us as though what is being done by the most powerful actors is going to doom us all.

Yes, in many ways, the regime in, eg, Burma, is worse than Sharon in Israel proper, although I shouldn't think that the Burmese officers have quite yet matched the IOF in Gaza or the West Bank. If you'd like to join the discussion about Burma, though, I'm sure one of us could find it for you.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6350

posted 26 July 2004 05:05 PM      Profile for Critical Mass        Edit/Delete Post
Rolly eyes: very "generous".

As I said, I get the message. Your attitude is very clear. Since I have no horse in this race, since I support no one or faction in particular in that region of the world, I don't need to participate in the forum. I can do without the insulting tone many people have tended to adopt in these threads. Life is too short.


From: King & Bay (downtown Toronto) - I am King of the World!!! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 26 July 2004 05:14 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass:
Rolly eyes: very "generous".

As I said, I get the message. Your attitude is very clear. Since I have no horse in this race, since I support no one or faction in particular in that region of the world, I don't need to participate in the forum. I can do without the insulting tone many people have tended to adopt in these threads. Life is too short.


Skdadl didn't tell anyone to stop writing to these forums. She didn't even hint at it. She didn't even suggest an intimation of at a hint at it....

Skdadl has no problem being blunt, if memory serves.

It looks like you just like to feel offended.

Fine.

[ 26 July 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5864

posted 26 July 2004 06:12 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by wei-chi:
You're not necessarily wrong. But let me play devil's advocate here: why on earth would Israel want to destabilize Lebanon? It makes no sense, they just withdrew from Lebanon!

In this case, Israel's responses have been by-the-book porportional resonses. If anything that has a stabilizing effect on the region.



I plead the fifth (is that ignorance?); my post was only intended to discredit the notion that repeated actions by one state against another would automatically exclude destabilization due to, I suppose, a kind of desensitizing from whatever the actions or policies may be. However, I will fully agree that certain policies, even if intended to destabilize a country, could (and often do) have the opposite effect and draw the populace together. One common example I can think of would be Hitler switching from bombing military targets in WWII to raiding the civilian ones instead.

So you may very well be correct in saying its brought the region more stability; I'm far too new to following world politics for adequate speculation. But I still stand by the assertation that repeated actions won't inherently fail to have an effect on a state, and that the results could range from stability to chaos to being hit with a sack of wet kittens.


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 26 July 2004 10:31 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
I notice none of you denied that the prophecy requires the "messiah" to enter from the east, through which there is a gravesite. Ergo, you do not dispute my contention that rebuilding the temple in that direction would be pointless from a prophecy viewpoint...


Please tell us which prophesy "requires" the messiah to enter through the Mercy Gate and through the gravesite? Don’t bother quoting Ezekiel unless you also plan on bringing the text of Hananiah ben Hezkiah along with it. Before you expound, you may want to consult the Laws of Kings, the last two chapters of the Mishna Torah, written by Maimonides, especially the first and second verses of chapter twelve. Then please bring whatever sources in Jewish law you have to show that the third temple can be located anywhere other than the location of the first and second temples stood on the temple mount. Then if you still think the third temple can be rebuilt “in that direction” as you put it, why is the gravesite stopping them?


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 26 July 2004 11:47 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Burma, messiahs, temples, Syria, babblers' notorious anti-Israel-ism... this thread now seems to be about everything on earth except Israeli jets violating Lebanese airspace. Perhaps it's time to put it out of its misery.

I guess the trolls win this one.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 27 July 2004 01:05 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see that Khadiija has nothing to offer except nitpicking about anything nonrelevant to the issue at hand. In that respect, Khadiija, you are oddly similar to Macabee, who didn't mind wasting five posts about a non sequitur about orthogonal eigenvectors, as long as it detracted from the issue at hand.

I would suggest, in future, that you make your eagerness to stop discussing the topic at hand somewhat less transparent.

And from this point on, I shall cease to carry on any conversation with you, Khadiija.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
liminal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5617

posted 27 July 2004 05:56 AM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass:
I had many Lebanese friends in Montreal. Many had relatives who had been killed or "disappeared" by Syrian forces or their political allies in Lebanon.

I guess human rights abuses are only worth commenting on if the bad guys are Israelis.

Human rights are human rights, I had thought.

Good work Khadija for informing others of what happened to my friends' families.



Critical Mass, allow me:

First, I second Skdadl in what she posted. Human rights are human rights, and accordingly, should not be disparaged or taken lightly. I believe that's what's worse that ignoring human suffering is using them gratuitously as fuel in propaganda work. Authors of such propaganda couldn't care less about the Lebanese plight under Syrian hegemony, or Iraqi plight under Saddam Hussein, but as long as these issues serve them to score points, in this case whitewash, they adopt them. As such, human beings are reduced to mere commodities that can be left aside or "lobbied for" when the need arises. It adds insult to injury. scroll up this thread:
Al-Q posted a link about Israeli jets violating Lebanese airspace.

What was Khadiija's response?

quote:
Are those Syrian troops still occupying part of Lebanon?

Can you honestly believe that there is genuine concern about Lebanon in such a case? There is obviously a purpose of deflection. Moreover, the same spearheads of the Lebanese missing on this thread, when told that more people were kidnapped or killed by the Phalangists and their superiors the Israelis, will either resort to denial or say:
"in wars these things happen" or "'it is unfortunate, but it's a mistake" or things of this sort. Where is their humanity then?

This all brings me to a question that has been going on in my mind for a while: What should make a debate fruitful is when it is conducted between posters of differing opinions, not between sycophants, but shouldn't all participants have some sort of collective framework? I thought that the common ground on babble was human welfare, where it should circumscribe all processes. When it comes to Syria or to Sudan, there is some sort of uninamity because of the human suffering at stake; however, I feel that most of the pro-Israel posters have Israel as their overriding telos, not human good. So, when the two conflict, they go out of their way to make Isreal look good at the expense of human suffering. Hence, the question, what is more important, Israel's image or humanity? I hope this question is answered, because I think it would constitute some sort of breakthrough if we could establish some sense of vantage point or common aim, hopefully a humanitarian one.


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 27 July 2004 07:36 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Starting a new thread based on liminal's comments...
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
wei-chi
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2799

posted 27 July 2004 12:17 PM      Profile for wei-chi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Again, this has been Israeli practice to retaliate to attacks on Israel. In this case, snipers shot across the border, into Israel, killing to people. This happens with alarming regularity.

Bringing Syria into the matter is inevitable, because it is intertwined with Beriut, and particularly those groups launching attacks on Israel from Lebanon. However, if we are discussing Israel's response to these attacks - what should it be?


From: Saskatoon | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 27 July 2004 12:17 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:

I believe that's what's worse that ignoring human suffering is using them gratuitously as fuel in propaganda work.

Whooosh! When you take the time to reflect and realize you are demonizing Israel then maybe, just maybe, you will have some bandwidth left to shed some tears for what is happening elsewhere. Strange how Babble has a section for the Middle East and then "the rest of the world."

When legitimate concerns about the Syrian Occupation of Lebanon, the disappearences of citizens and the terrible treatment of women are brought up you call it a "smear campaign."

"Are they also "butchering your sisters"? was your response.

ARE THEY ALSO BUTCHERING YOUR SISTERS!

What an insensitive response to one who talks about "ignoring human suffering."

You are not in a position to judge my "concern" for my fellow human being be it in Lebanon or any country around the world or closer to home. Because I also post comments about Israel that you disagree with you are critical of my care for souls in Lebanon. Talk about using Lebanon "gratuitously as fuel in propaganda work." What a flimsy smokescreen you have created for atrocities that are being shoved under the rug.

[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: Khadiija ]


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 July 2004 12:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Khadiija:
Whooosh! When you take the time to reflect and realize you are demonizing Israel then maybe, just maybe, you will have some bandwidth left to shed some tears for what is happening elsewhere. Strange how Babble has a section for the Middle East and then "the rest of the world."

It's not strange at all. The reason we have a separate section for Middle East issues is because all the Israel-Palestine threads were taking over the News and Politics section and drowning everything else out - and not just because of the pro-Palestinian activists here, as you might imagine. Many threads have been started by the pro-Israel side too.

The reason other parts of the world aren't discussed as much on babble is because there isn't much to discuss. When threads get posted about, say, oppression in Iran or Saudi Arabia, there's nobody who jumps in and defends the atrocities that happen in those countries, so the thread basically consists of, "Hey, look what that stupid Iranian government did this time!" "Yeah, that's pretty bad." "You're telling me." And then it dies out.

Unlike, say, Israel-Palestine threads where, no matter how egregious the human rights violation the Israeli army carries out against the Palestinian population, you'll get the Sharon apologists out in full force.

In other words, Israel-Palestine has a lot of people who passionately defend both sides of the issue. When it comes to other oppressive regimes, we don't have people on both sides arguing about it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 27 July 2004 12:51 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

When threads get posted about, say, oppression in Iran or Saudi Arabia, there's nobody who jumps in and defends the atrocities that happen in those countries...

Then why the charade? Just call it Israel and the the rest of the wold.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 27 July 2004 12:58 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Khadiija:

Then why the charade? Just call it "Israel" and "the the rest of the world."



From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 July 2004 01:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Because at the time we were also putting threads about the situation in Iraq the Middle East forum, as well as threads about Lebanon (like this one), and any other surrounding countries in the region.

And, maybe you haven't noticed, but it's not just ISRAEL - it's Palestinian land too, which is why, even if the forum was only meant for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, we wouldn't just call it "Israel".

The short answer is, too bad if you don't like it. We've already had this discussion with many people before you who whined about the fact that there are more threads about Israel-Palestine than other world events and conflicts, and we've already chewed that bone a hundred times. Use the search function and look for the old threads in the Middle East forum and Rabble Reactions if you have a problem with it. Stop derailing this thread.

[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 27 July 2004 01:18 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
"Thanks, Khadj...by the way, you're an idiot."

"...you pinhead doofus"

"...that you are a pinheaded doofus, Starfuck."

Michelle, why are the above insults OK but the ones in the "Sharon urges Jews to flee France" thread not OK?

[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: Khadiija ]


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 27 July 2004 01:21 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Actually, Khadija, they weren't OK. They are remarks I am not proud of, but there you are. I have little patience with anyone who's propagandising. You were posting these overlong cut and pastes and being a little loose with the sources. That is not dialogue.

[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 July 2004 01:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would have been happy to deal with that if you'd pointed them out to me. Feel free to lodge a complaint with me any time, by private mail, whenever you feel someone has violated babble policy, with the quote and the link to the thread. Just be sure that you weren't instigating it with rude or trolling comments, or you won't get much sympathy from me. The ME forum is a rough place, and I don't moderate it with a heavy hand, or else half the posts in the forum would be admonishments from me. Enter at your own risk.

And by the way, the "Sharon urges Jews to leave France" thread was closed for length, not because it wasn't "okay", whatever that means.

[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 27 July 2004 01:31 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Khadiija:
Michelle, why are the above insults OK but the ones in the "Sharon urges Jews to flee France" thread not OK?

Michelle wears the moderator hat as well as the participant in the middle east. She has made her position on Israel very clear. I wonder what it would be like if the judge and jury position were occupied by someone who is more balanced.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 27 July 2004 01:34 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
babble quite happily does not pretend to be balanced. It permits the opposing view up to the point that it does not make "internal" discussion of the primary viewpoint represented by this board impossible. Given this, the moderators are usually quite tolerant, especially on the Middle East board.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 July 2004 01:38 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, gee, maybe we should get you to moderate it instead, huh Starbuck?

You can ask the pro-Palestinian posters here - there have been lots of times when I have given warnings to people on the pro-Palestinian side. However, as this is volunteer work, I don't feel the need to scrutinize every single post in the Middle East forum. If someone complains to me about a post, by giving me the link to the thread and the quote, I will check it out and deal with it.

Khadija has never done that, as far as I remember. Starbuck has once, but it was a complaint about something I wrote, and I explained myself to him (although not to his satisfaction, but oh well, too bad, I referred it to Audra as well and she didn't seem to have a problem with it).

I know it's probably fun for you to keep derailing threads by demanding either my resignation or booting off as moderator of the forum, but it really has nothing to do with the subject here.

If you want to start a thread in rabble reactions all about how you hate my moderating and you want Audra to get rid of me, please feel free to do so in the rabble reactions forum, or better yet, talk to Audra about it by e-mail, which is audra(at)rabble.ca.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 27 July 2004 01:52 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Khadija has never done that


Michelle, you obviously have not checked your messages.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 July 2004 01:57 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well gee. You're right. You sent it an hour ago. Silly me, I should be checking my private mail at 5 minute intervals all day long. And you didn't bother including the link to the thread, nor the name of the babbler who wrote it.

And also, just a little pointer for future messages to me, Khadija - asking me, "Is this normal or are you so biased against Israel that you fail to slap the hand when this happens?" is probably not the nicest way to word your request to volunteer moderators when you're complaining. I volunteer to moderate, not to take shit and abuse by private mail.

[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 27 July 2004 02:00 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle,

They are called private messages for a reason.

What gives you the right to post a private message to the forum?


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 July 2004 02:05 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, you were the one who brought the private message into the discussion by implying that I am lax in my duties by not responding to it yet. I was explaining why I hadn't responded.

Since I was one of the participants in the private mail conversation, I have every right to tell people what that conversation consisted of.

And frankly, if you're going to be an insulting jerk in private messages you send to me, and then whine publicly on babble because I haven't answered said insulting private message yet, then I don't feel any need to respect your "privacy". You don't get free reign to trash me in private, sorry.

[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 27 July 2004 02:37 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:

Michelle wears the moderator hat as well as the participant in the middle east. She has made her position on Israel very clear. I wonder what it would be like if the judge and jury position were occupied by someone who is more balanced.


It certainly wouldn't affect your idiotic posts.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 27 July 2004 02:39 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
So, if a moderator does not like the way a message was worded then it becomes public!

Will you also release my name, address and phone number?


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 July 2004 02:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't reveal anything about your identity, nor would I. It's not like we have any of that kind of information on you anyhow, khadija.

Boo hoo hoo, you send insulting private messages and then feel violated when the person you're insulting doesn't keep your insults private.

Cry me a river.

Josh, I do appreciate the support, but that was rather gratuitous. Actually, I've been meaning to start a thread about the downhill spiral this forum has been taking lately (because I've been letting things slide too much on both sides), so I'll go away and do that now.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 27 July 2004 02:52 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Properly admonished.

But I do wonder whether Starbuck and Khadiija have done any wrestling because their Toronto-based tag team act seems quite similar to some of the wrestling acts you can see on TV. They appear to be playing a game of attempting to discredit the ME forum, in part, by going after the moderator.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 27 July 2004 03:03 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle,

You have been so busy revealing a private message you have conveniently "forgotten" to deal with the person who called me "starfuck".

If you want to be a moderator be a moderator. If you want to be a participant be a participant. But don't let your personal views of Israel cloud your decisions as a moderator.

I am sure if you finally do say something about being called a "starfuck" you will express it in a way that blames me.

You have told people to PM you, the moderator. Be careful! If the moderator does not like the tone of your message it can become public. I think it is wrong of you to abuse your position of moderator because you don't like someone's "whine". Is it their whine or their views that differ from yours? What is next? You don't like their name, city of origin?

A private message is meant to be private.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 27 July 2004 03:06 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I apologise for calling you Starfuck. I didn't realise you had been weeping into your pillow for several days now over this egregious insult.

Next time you high-five someone so patently gratuitously, I'll use a language that's much more suitable to your delicate sensibilities.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 27 July 2004 03:17 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
They appear to be playing a game of attempting to discredit the ME forum, in part, by going after the moderator.

Josh, thank you for the apple-polishing. Have you noticed Michelle does not receive any criticism from the pro-Palestinian side of participants.

I wonder why that is?


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 27 July 2004 03:19 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What I wonder is, who's apple are your polishing?
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 27 July 2004 03:23 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Khadiija:

Josh, thank you for the apple-polishing. Have you noticed Michelle does not receive any criticism from the pro-Palestinian side of participants.


Aside from the fact that describing everyone who disagrees with you as pro-Palestinian creates a false dichotomy, what I've noticed is that the only two who are criticizing the moderation here are also the two who seem intent on taking threads off-topic.

I wonder why that is.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 July 2004 03:24 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
You have been so busy revealing a private message you have conveniently "forgotten" to deal with the person who called me "starfuck".

I still haven't received the link to the thread, nor have I seen the quote in context. I now realize it was Hinterland, but I still haven't read where it occurred, and I'm not going to go searching for it. And besides, Hinterland has apologized for it, which is more than can be said for a lot of people who step out of line.

As for being "busy revealing a private message", if you have sympathy for someone who sent an insulting private mail, brought up the subject of the private mail publicly in the first place in the forum, and then whines about feeling all violated because the insult in their private message was made public, well, too bad. Complain to Audra if you have a problem with it.

quote:
If you want to be a moderator be a moderator. If you want to be a participant be a participant. But don't let your personal views of Israel cloud your decisions as a moderator.

I have an idea. If you want to talk about Middle East issues here, talk about Middle East issues. If you want to become my supervisor and order me around, apply for Audra's job at rabble.ca.

quote:
I am sure if you finally do say something about being called a "starfuck" you will express it in a way that blames me.

Hinterland has already said he was wrong. Case closed.

quote:
You have told people to PM you, the moderator. Be careful! If the moderator does not like the tone of your message it can become public.

What bullshit. People who write abusive or insulting messages to me - and then refer to those messages in a public thread, whining about the fact that I haven't gotten back to them one hour after they send the message - yeah, you might just find that I don't feel particularly bound to keep the insult private.

quote:
I think it is wrong of you to abuse your position of moderator because you don't like someone's "whine".

It's not his/her "whine" I didn't like. It was the fact that s/he insulted me in a private message and then came into this public thread and wondered why I hadn't responded to their private message yet.

quote:
Is it their whine or their views that differ from yours? What is next? You don't like their name, city of origin?

That's just dumb. I have never revealed anyone's identity on babble, and in fact I have banned people who have tried to "out" others. And the people I've banned for "outing" were pro-Palestinian posters who tried to out the real-life identity of a pro-Israel poster.

quote:
A private message is meant to be private.

Tough. If you send me a private message with an insult in it and then wonder in a public thread why I haven't responded to it, then you're the one who has made that private message fair game. This is the first and only time I've ever revealed the content of a private message, and only because khadija was rude and insulting in the message, and because khadija brought it up publicly first.

If you feel all abused and unhappy here, Starbuck, I suggest you complain to Audra, and if you can't get any satisfaction there, then maybe find a new forum where you feel more happy.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 27 July 2004 03:30 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
[QB Toronto-based tag team [/QB]

Am I really from Toronto? Josh, now we are from almost the same place...


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 27 July 2004 03:33 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, there's only room for one in here. And I know Toronto is a big city, but it's not that big.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 27 July 2004 03:34 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle,

That was an apology? THIS is the thread. Look up. What about the insults I received?

You posted a private message to a public forum and are trying to justify your poor decision.

What a mistake you made. You could have simply apologized but then yiou went on to defend what you did.

I guess Babble policy depends on the tone of a private message.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 July 2004 03:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What do you mean, "look up"? First of all, you didn't bother to TELL me that you were talking about posts made on this thread until now, you just pulled a few quotes without even saying who said them.

Sorry, I'm not going to go wading through 90 some-odd posts in this thread looking for a needle in a haystack.

And yeah, that's the apology. What do you want Hinterland to do, grovel? He admitted he was wrong. You're making a mountain out of a molehill, considering that the Middle East forum is full of harsh debating.

I mean, if you really want me to monitor every single person's post and post a "warning" every time someone even slightly crosses the line, I think you'll find that every other message in the ME forum will be a warning from me.

It's a contentious subject and it means that passions run high. An admission of wrongdoing, even sarcastically given, is about is good as you're going to get. Don't worry, I'll never require you to apologize abjectly and grovel to anyone for any line-crossing you do here.

And that's all I have to say on this issue. If you want to keep talking about it, start a new thread in Rabble Reactions. I'm closing this thread because it's off topic and it's almost a hundred posts long.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 27 July 2004 03:44 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Quit whining, you wuss. You have derailed this thread, and got called on it by several posters. If you can't deal with the ire that derailing a thread is going to bring, then perhaps you should find a new debating tactic.

Oops! This message was not meant for Michelle.

[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 27 July 2004 03:46 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Khadija, you and Starbuck are making an issue of my insult only now in a tag-teaming game to discredit the moderation of this forum. My apology is so secondary to what the two of you are trying to do that that in itself goes to show that that apology was about the best either of you deserves from me.

I've been very quick to apologise for harsh language when it's been pointed out to me at the time. That you're whining about it now just helps solidify my opinion concerning your honour and credibility.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Open Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca