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Author Topic: Who truly hijacked Christianity?
al-Qa'bong
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posted 18 July 2004 12:58 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If the latest in the "Left Behind" series of evangelical thrillers is to be believed, Jesus will return to Earth, gather non-Christians to his left and toss them into everlasting fire:

"Jesus merely raised one hand a few inches and a yawning chasm opened in the earth, stretching far and wide enough to swallow all of them. They tumbled in, howling and screeching, but their wailing was soon quashed and all was silent when the earth closed itself again."

These are the best-selling novels for adults in the United States, and they have sold more than 60 million copies worldwide. The latest is "Glorious Appearing," which has Jesus returning to Earth to wipe all non-Christians from the planet.


Who would Jesus ethnically cleanse?

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 18 July 2004 08:31 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excellent article! Thanks for that. I'm printing it out to send to someone who loves that series. Actually, I've been reading the series too, and I have enjoyed it in a way. But the person I'm thinking about believes that it will happen and believes it's a good thing. The comparison to fundamentalist Islam may or may not hit home.

My personal opinion is that these books are interesting, a good read, and total bullshit both metaphysically and theologically.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 18 July 2004 01:09 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Isn't the idea that Jesus would harm anyone antithetical to Christianity?

Wasn't the apocaplypse written by some hermit living in a cave, eating lizards and cactus roots and having visions of what the world would look like when he became one of the elect?


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Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 01:17 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Isn't the idea that Jesus would harm anyone antithetical to Christianity?

I'm getting the impression these types of Christians are just about ready to drop the whole "Jesus-thing". It doesn't seem to fit all that well with the intolerant, violent, judgemental theology they seem to be pushing these days.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Malek
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posted 18 July 2004 03:59 PM      Profile for Malek     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All the current major conflicts of the world are born from the same mother, organized religion. We have the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, with its basis of promised land. The war on terror is largely religious based between extremist Islamic and Christian elements. India/Pakistan is over sacred religious lands. The Sudan debacle is religious, ditto Rawanda during the 90s. The cultural war going in in America is about religious values vs personal freedom. Religion divides nations and races into tribes. The behaviourial adjustments required to resolve conflicts between religions in most cases would be seen by the respective practioniers as commiting heresy against their own beliefs. Ignorance, murder and deepening entrenchment are the byproducts of religion. Always was and always will be.
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Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 04:10 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malek:
... Ignorance, murder and deepening entrenchment are the byproducts of religion. Always was and always will be.

Not really. You will always have disagreements occuring when opposites clash. Take the Liberals and the Conservatives, for example. They hate each other just because they have diametrically opposite opinions. The reason religion leads to wars when it comes across another alien religion is very similar. We are automatically suspicious of something that is new and different from what we are used to. BTW, I thought most religions preached knowledge, protection of life and friendship rather than encourage the opposite.


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malek
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posted 18 July 2004 04:14 PM      Profile for Malek     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zahid Zaman:
BTW, I thought most religions preached knowledge, protection of life and friendship rather than encourage the opposite.

Just as those who take the peace and fellowship path of religion can quote versus to support their viewpoint, there are an equal number of adherents who can quote religious text to justify less benign activities.


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Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 04:20 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malek:

Just as those who take the peace and fellowship path of religion can quote versus to support their viewpoint, there are an equal number of adherents who can quote religious text to justify less benign activities.


Sadly you are right about this. Mostly, occurences like these have occured as a result of low literacy in most thrid world countries. People in these countries are used to seeing things in black and white and therefore associate an invading America as evil.


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 18 July 2004 04:37 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mostly, occurences like these have occured as a result of low literacy in most thrid world countries. People in these countries are used to seeing things in black and white and therefore associate an invading America as evil.

Silly savages. Let's bomb them until they understand.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 18 July 2004 04:39 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
All the current major conflicts of the world are born from the same mother, organized religion. We have the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, with its basis of promised land.

Only one side of this conflict adheres to a concept of a "promised land". Palestinians don't view this as a clash of religions, but rather as an attempt to recover stolen property.

quote:
I'm getting the impression these types of Christians are just about ready to drop the whole "Jesus-thing". It doesn't seem to fit all that well with the intolerant, violent, judgemental theology they seem to be pushing these days.

Dubya was misquoted when he named his favourite philosopher. He actually said "Jenghiz Christ".

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


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Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 04:44 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Linner:
Silly savages. Let's bomb them until they understand.

I'm assuming from that eye roll that you think I'm being unrealistic or even think my ex-pats are savages. I'm from Pakistan myself and know what a huge hold the so-called Imams have on the common man. Anything you hear an Imam saying is the sacred written in stone and if most of those preachings would be translated they would seem something along the lines of: America is evil. Bring it down.

I'm not being naive, I'm just stating a sad state of affairs.


From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malek
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posted 18 July 2004 05:04 PM      Profile for Malek     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zahid Zaman:
Mostly, occurences like these have occured as a result of low literacy in most thrid world countries. People in these countries are used to seeing things in black and white and therefore associate an invading America as evil.

My intent was to highlight extremism on both sides of the coin, as in extremist conservative christians with low literacy rates as you put it, however your point about "mostly occuring in third world countries" is not born out especially if one listens to the views of the average american. Apparently god is on their side as well. They truly believe this because their President tells them so.


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Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 05:10 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malek:

My intent was to highlight extremism on both sides of the coin, as in extremist conservative christians with low literacy rates as you put it, however your point about "mostly occuring in third world countries" is not born out especially if one listens to the views of the average american. Apparently god is on their side as well. They truly believe this because their President tells them so.


Agreed!


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Courage
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posted 18 July 2004 05:44 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malek:
Ignorance, murder and deepening entrenchment are the byproducts of religion. Always was and always will be.

Enlightenment, the sanctity of life and tolerant acceptance are ALSO the byproducts of religion. Always have been, and always will be.

But this isn't enough. If we are to study causality, we have to do more than just chart a series of correspondences. Is it 'religion' that makes ignorance, murder, and deepening entrenchement - or is it the animal that makes religion that writes these features of its own psychology into its religion?

I ask this question as a barometer - can anyone find me a passage in the New Testament that can be attributed to Jesus that specifically condones the ignorance, murder and deepening entrenchement that we see among Christians - fundamentalist and non?

So, just as with the 'Islam' thread - what is 'Christianity' - the lessons and acts of The Christ, or the sum total of acts performed by self-avowed 'Christians' who claim a fidelity between their actions and their religion? Additionally, is the claim of fidelity even necessary? Is anything a 'Christian' does 'Christianity'?

I would argue that it is the former. And that living up to the harsh discipline demanded by imitating Jesus' life (fact or legend) is, in fact, quite beyond most self-avowed 'Christians'.


Which brings us to another question: Is it different aspects of humanity (the totality of possible human behaviours) that create these seemingly opposed phenomena? Is it one 'kind' of human being who makes tolerant 'religion' and one who turns it into a blood-letting? Can we create a typology of people based on their spiritual/psychological development that is near-objective? Does such a typology necessarily need to lead to a kind of intolerant religious fanaticism?

What if the qualities of 'developement' are enlightened tolerance and love of life in all its forms based in a conception of life as an integral and functioning process within a larger, and somewhat ordered/chaotic, plan?

Is religion so bad then?

Some things I've been wrasslin' with for awhile now. Having been a good atheist/socialist for a long time, I came to see my own position as based on a lot of mischaracterisations and ignorance; a deepening entrenchment, and a less-than-admirable amount of respect for other forms of human life - re: religions and their adherents.

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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Jack01
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posted 18 July 2004 08:12 PM      Profile for Jack01        Edit/Delete Post
The last to hijack Christianity would be Mel Gibson.

Only the New York Times.

I never thought they would do a hachet job on Jesus but since he works for the Republican party it seems even Jesus is fair game.

Kristoff, has Jesus as a Wrath of God, ethnic cleansing, animal abusing, hell sending, prisoner abusing, slavery acceptor, religon intolerant type guy who's commiting violence against infidels.

Kristoff has a point. What was the name of the Guy who drove around Saudi Arabia shooting people from the trunk of his car?

What was it. Michael Allen HaySesus.


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Malek
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posted 18 July 2004 09:27 PM      Profile for Malek     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:
What if the qualities of 'developement' are enlightened tolerance and love of life in all its forms based in a conception of life as an integral and functioning process within a larger, and somewhat ordered/chaotic, plan?

Is religion so bad then?
[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


Some of the "what ifs" you mention do find their way into various faith based practices. Conversely, the alternatives to enlightened tolerance are routinely demonstrated and justified as righteous and moral. I ponder the question as to whether an athesist world would find itself in the same condition that the pious world currently enjoys.


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Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 09:30 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Malek:

Some of the "what ifs" you mention do find their way into various faith based practices. Conversely, the alternatives to enlightened tolerance are routinely demonstrated and justified as righteous and moral. I ponder the question as to whether an athesist world would find itself in the same condition that the pious world currently enjoys.


I'm afraid we would be in the same conundrum in an athiest world. It is not religion that advocates violence ( at least not for the most part) but rather the will of the people and the encounter with something different. We will always find differences amongst us, whether that be religion, race, nationality or politics.

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Zahid Zaman ]


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Gir Draxon
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posted 18 July 2004 10:52 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

I'm getting the impression these types of Christians are just about ready to drop the whole "Jesus-thing". It doesn't seem to fit all that well with the intolerant, violent, judgemental theology they seem to be pushing these days.



Very true. The same people who are said to be literalists don't seem to be reading very much in the Gospels. It is almost as if they form their opinions beforehand and then search the Bible for a passage that they can manipulate to support their position.....


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Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 11:04 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Doug Giles is exactly the kind of Christian who is hijacking Christianity. He spent most of his life in a depravity few of us can understand, and now thinks a more "macho", less effeminate Jesus is more "biblical". Take a look at one of his paintings: The Saviour, before Shick razors were invented.

I think he makes a ton of money doing this as well. Gee, who hijacked Christianity again?

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


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paxamillion
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posted 18 July 2004 11:04 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
It is almost as if they form their opinions beforehand and then search the Bible for a passage that they can manipulate to support their position.....

That sure isn't unique to literalists.


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Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 11:10 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
We're talking about Christianity here, Pax. Who else, but the literalists, are high-jacking the faith?
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paxamillion
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posted 18 July 2004 11:12 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
He spent most of his life in a depravity few of us can understand...

I see worse than him weekly in AA.


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Zahid Zaman
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posted 18 July 2004 11:15 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lieralism has always been the bane of religion. I seriously miss the more spiritual reason for leaving religious arguments in grey rather than black or white. That way, dear old God could've prevented so much misinterpretation.
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Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 11:19 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I see worse than him weekly in AA.

Take a look at Giles's oeuvre. That's not what you'd see in AA.


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paxamillion
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posted 18 July 2004 11:20 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
We're talking about Christianity here, Pax. Who else, but the literalists, are high-jacking the faith?

If all you are looking for is the literalists, then that is, of course who you will find. But to address your question, I guess it depends on what you mean by "the faith." I would say that some folks who place too much emphasis on liturgy and ritual dilute the faith. They reduce the emphasis on love of neighbour and the challenge that implies.

There are also sacrementalists who over-emphasize baptism, communion and similar things over a vital, living faith -- one that positively affects society. These folks turn up at Christmas, at funerals, to be married, to have their children baptised. So do those children.

That's two more groups, for starters, that dilute the vitality of faith and faith community as I understand it.


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paxamillion
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posted 18 July 2004 11:24 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Take a look at Giles's oeuvre. That's not what you'd see in AA.

I don't know what you mean by "oeuvre," but I did read his bio. Been to many meetings yourself, Hinterland? Because if this guy is concealing a drinking problem (which sometimes people do if they are still working at recovering from it), he's a lot like three of four guys I know -- all ministers.

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: paxamillion ]


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 11:26 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Been to many meetings yourself, Hinterland?

More than I care to remember, Shopping off friends and family to AA meetings. But that's not the point, Pax. Giles is "completely recovered" as far as we know, but take a look at his work. It's bizarre.

Let's put it bluntly. The liars are high-jacking the faith.

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


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paxamillion
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posted 18 July 2004 11:31 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that if one looks at church history, the liars, the greedy, the power mad, and the otherwise deluded have all taken their respective shots at derailing the faith.
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 July 2004 11:34 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, Pax. I totally edited the post you responded to.

[ 18 July 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


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paxamillion
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posted 18 July 2004 11:36 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No worries, mate. That's life in the digital age.
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged

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