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Author Topic: Lebanese Democracy Continued
liminal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5617

posted 12 July 2004 02:38 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
The other thread: Lebanese Democracy ( http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000943) was closed when there were still issues to be raised. Khadiija obviously didn’t bother to read what she’s posted:
quote:

In 1999 the law was amended to increase the severity of the sentence for perpetrators of "honour crimes".Several instances of honour crimes are reported in the media every year, and reportedly there were an average of two to three cases of honour crimes each month in 2001. No person has been convicted in a case legally considered as an honour crime.



Oh well, I didn't know we can still hold people accountable for past deeds they've already rectified. Moreover, when the report says that no one is convicted "in a case legally considered as an honour crime", it means the crime does not fall under special amnesty, and is considered as a generic crime, ie, people can not get away with so-called "honour killing".
Do you know why the law was amended? Do you know why the parliament passed bills in favor of granting more equality to women? It is because of Lebanese NGOs, feminist organizations, and human rights groups who do formidable work. It is their lobbying that pressured MPs to rectify unjust laws. It is women like Laure Moughayzel and Linda Mattar. But this can’t be. Lebanon is not democratic. It falls behind Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia in democracy and human rights according to Khadiija’s list. Well, in a backwater of democracy like Lebanon, NGOs mobilize to have causes officially adopted, and they succeed in many cases. They must have learned from Afghanistan.

Moreover, if we take a look at this article:
http://www.wccpenang.org/herizons_10.htm

quote:
Feminists, activists and human rights defenders have quietly begun work to end honour killings. In Lebanon, until last February, a man who killed to cleanse the family honour was protected by a law that said: “A man who surprises his wife, daughter, or sister practising adultery or illicit intercourse, and kills or harms one of the two partners without pre-meditation, benefits from the legitimate excuse” that relieves him of the burden of murder.
After years of protest spearheaded by feminist Laure Moughaizel, the law was amended, making the man’s actions punishable by a sentence lighter than death.

In Lebanon, all actions are punishable by sentences lighter than death. In fact, I find one of the problems with the Lebanese judiciary system is that they go easy on most crimes, much like Holland. Once in a blue moon, when the murder carries within it a possibility of civil strife, like murdering people for their religious affiliation, capital punishment is applied. However, bottom line is that the Lebanese law considers now an "honour crime" a crime like any other.

So, Khadiija, I apologize that Lebanon is not the bastion of human evil you portray it to be. But then again, it seems much more convenient to "misread" and unleash an unwarranted diatribe, which leads me to doubt whether there is genuine concern or simple trolling with the aim of denigrating.

It infuriates me when people abuse such legitimate issues like women's rights, only to use them as fuel for propaganda, instead of being genuinely disturbed by violations. It just belittles injustices against women. Lebanese women have yet so much to achieve to gain the rights they deserve: from prejudice in praxis, where they are not paid salaries commensurate to these of males for example, to the domination of the misogynist religious leaders who exert so much control.

[ 12 July 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]

[ 28 July 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 July 2004 01:09 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Angry Arab has spoken out quite strongly on Lebanese treatment of women. His blog is currently running his comments following an interview with Hassan Nasrallah.

http://angryarab.blogspot.com/


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Blind_Patriot
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posted 13 July 2004 10:05 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When Israel was thrown into the mix. Macabee forgot to mention how Lebanon is not a religious state like Israel is. Lebanon doesn't classify (deny rights to) it's citizens according to their religion. Which is a violation of Human Rights, but that's another story.
From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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Babbler # 4117

posted 13 July 2004 12:56 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
When Israel was thrown into the mix. Macabee forgot to mention how Lebanon is not a religious state like Israel is. Lebanon doesn't classify (deny rights to) it's citizens according to their religion. Which is a violation of Human Rights, but that's another story.

But Patriot, Lebanon's democracy is based on religion. Granted, it provides much more equality for the sects involved, but a person's faith still determines their position in the government. If push came to shove, I'd have to say that Israel and Lebanon are very similar in their approach to democracy.

[ 13 July 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
liminal
rabble-rouser
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posted 24 July 2004 10:23 AM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

But Patriot, Lebanon's democracy is based on religion. Granted, it provides much more equality for the sects involved, but a person's faith still determines their position in the government. If push came to shove, I'd have to say that Israel and Lebanon are very similar in their approach to democracy.

[ 13 July 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


No, they are not. In Lebanon, no matter what your religious affiliation is, you still have a piece of the cake, some way or the other. So, if you are a Maronite Christian, it is true that you can't be PM, but you can still be president of the republic. Moreover, the Ta'ef accord holds the executive power not in one person, but collectively in the council of ministers (by voting, and the decison is binding to the PM), so there isn't a single decison that takes place without the consent of the Maronite Christians, the Orthodox Christians, the Protestants, the Sunni Muslims, the Shiaa Muslims, the Druzes, and the Armenians (and others).
Bottom line, no matter what your religion (or ethnicity) is, you have a saying.

Is it the same for the native Israelis or the ones residing outside the Green Line?


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 27 July 2004 05:36 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Bottom line, no matter what your religion (or ethnicity) is, you have a saying.

Aren't there 17 sects in Lebanon? Doesn't that mean that the smaller ethnic and religious groups, the Druze Turkomen, Armenians etc. get a smaller piece of the pie then do larger groups, such as the Maronites and Shias?

quote:
No, they are not.

Well, they're not exactly the same. I do believe that parallels can be drawn however.
One could make the argument that in order to be Prime Minister of Israel you have to be of European descent and a Jew. Your faith and ethnicity determines your position government. Almost all of Israel's prime ministers have been white. This law is unwritten, it doesn't technically exist, but due to the socioeconomic status of many Sephardic Jews in Israeli society, it is a reality. In the same way, a Sunni can never be Prime Minister of Lebanon, not because of socioeconomics but because of legislation.

[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 27 July 2004 05:41 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While I'm generally fairly respectful of Lebanon, I do find myself wondering--so, all the religious groups end up fairly even. What if you're an atheist? Got any rights? Got any representatives?
From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 July 2004 05:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:
So, Khadiija, I apologize that Lebanon is not the bastion of human evil you portray it to be. But then again, it seems much more convenient to "misread" and unleash an unwarranted diatribe, which leads me to doubt whether there is genuine concern or simple trolling with the aim of denigrating.

I would appreciate it if this thread didn't start out in such a confrontational way right from the start, liminal. If you think Khadija is trolling, or has terrible ulterior motives, take it up with me, or take it to private mail.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 27 July 2004 10:31 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What if you're an atheist?

Good point Rufus. I believe that Lebanon's covenant is a remarkable achievement, but it seems to be very difficult to change. From what I understand, If a forward thinking Lebanese politician tried to alter his country's Constitution in order to give Palestinians (or athiests) the ability to hold political office, the country would disintegrate, whereas the Prime Minister of Israel could eliminate the racist laws in his country quite easily. An Israeli Civil War wouldn't be in the offing. Perhaps I am mistaken, I don't really know what the political tensions are like in Israel right now. It does look like Israel's quasi democracy is much more flexible than Lebanon's.

[ 27 July 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

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From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 28 July 2004 12:07 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

I would appreciate it if this thread didn't start out in such a confrontational way right from the start, liminal. If you think Khadija is trolling, or has terrible ulterior motives, take it up with me, or take it to private mail.


Michelle, what do I have to do with this thread? I did not post to it till now.

You do not have to bring me into it.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fly133
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posted 28 July 2004 03:16 AM      Profile for Fly133        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:

No, they are not. In Lebanon, no matter what your religious affiliation is, you still have a piece of the cake, some way or the other. So, if you are a Maronite Christian, it is true that you can't be PM, but you can still be president of the republic. Moreover, the Ta'ef accord holds the executive power not in one person, but collectively in the council of ministers (by voting, and the decison is binding to the PM), so there isn't a single decison that takes place without the consent of the Maronite Christians, the Orthodox Christians, the Protestants, the Sunni Muslims, the Shiaa Muslims, the Druzes, and the Armenians (and others).
Bottom line, no matter what your religion (or ethnicity) is, you have a saying.

Is it the same for the native Israelis or the ones residing outside the Green Line?


No Liminal.
Israel is not the same like Liminal:
* In Israel, all fractions were not fighting each others during 1970/80 and killed thousands of people.
In Lebanon they did.
* In Israel they do not have the Syrian Army with thousands of soldiers, missile bases and tanks, to monitor the "democracy" and make sure the "freely" electorals make the right decisions...
In Lebanon they do.
* In Israel, they have 1 million Arabs - Muslim and Christians, hundred thousands Druz, 5.5 million Jews and more. In Jerusalem only, they have Greek Ortodox, Russians, Arminians, and more. All of them have the right to vote, there are Arab parties in the parliament, nobody is measured or get represantation because of his religion, One preson - One vote.
In Lebanon - remind me again how do Jews have "a piece of the cake" exactly?
And, Remind me again - does the Muslim slained in 1982 in Sabra and Shatila by Maronite Christians Militia from the Falangs ruling party (Jumai'el family) - did they "have a saying" ...?
* In Israel, 150,000 people leaving "behind the green lines" in Jerusalem, in areas that were annexed, have equal rights, voting rights, Israeli passports etc.
* To your question:
The 2 millions Palestinians leaving in other parts of "behind the green lines" ARE NOT Israeli citizens, they are Jordenians and or Palestinian Authority residents. They do not want to and will not become Israeli citizens, as Israel is not going to annex their land. (Or do you believe they should..?). Once their leaders become reasonable human beings and stop sending suicide bombers, they will end up with an independant state, where they can do anything they want. Knowing the precedents, they will probably turn it into Lebanese style "democracy" But, that's their problem.


From: Florida | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 July 2004 08:42 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Khadiija:
Michelle, what do I have to do with this thread? I did not post to it till now.

You do not have to bring me into it.


Khadija, please re-read my post to Liminal. In his first post to this thread, he implied that you are trolling, and he was being confrontational with you right from the beginning of the thread. I told him to stop. In other words, when he insulted you, I responded to that. I think that's more than apparent from my quote of him and my response.

If you have a problem with it, don't bother responding here. Either take it up with Audra or start a thread in rabble reactions. Don't derail this thread. Please refer to this thread for the rules of the forum, and follow them. Thanks.

[ 28 July 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 28 July 2004 09:42 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fly133:
No Liminal.Israel is not the same like Liminal:
* In Israel, all fractions were not fighting each others during 1970/80 and killed thousands of people. In Lebanon they did.

No, but they have been performing an slow and painful ethnic cleansing in a wider range of time.
quote:
* In Israel they do not have the Syrian Army with thousands of soldiers, missile bases and tanks, to monitor the "democracy" and make sure the "freely" electorals make the right decisions...
In Lebanon they do.

Of course not, they circumstances are different. Syria has too much to risk to provoke a War happy State that has the biggest arsenal of Weapons of Mass Destruction in the Near East.
quote:
* In Israel, they have 1 million Arabs - Muslim and Christians, hundred thousands Druz, 5.5 million Jews and more. In Jerusalem only, they have Greek Ortodox, Russians, Arminians, and more. All of them have the right to vote, there are Arab parties in the parliament, nobody is measured or get represantation because of his religion, One preson - One vote.
This doesn't demonstrate their equality under the Law. Arabs do not have the same rights as Israeli Jews. In Lebanon, rights are equal for all factions (Except Palestinian rufugees cleased from their homeland)
quote:

In Lebanon - remind me again how do Jews have "a piece of the cake" exactly?

They own the Air Space and they had a heavy hand in the Lebanese Civil War
quote:

And, Remind me again - does the Muslim slained in 1982 in Sabra and Shatila by Maronite Christians Militia from the Falangs ruling party (Jumai'el family) - did they "have a saying" ...?

No they didn't, Because it was Ariel Sharon who decided their fate. It was the phalangists who Murdered all those innocent people, but it was the Israeli's who made it possible by sealing off the area from escape.
quote:

* In Israel, 150,000 people leaving "behind the green lines" in Jerusalem, in areas that were annexed, have equal rights, voting rights, Israeli passports etc.

You should know as well as anybody else, that this statement is false. 1947 Palestinians lost the right to live in their homes. Today they don't even have a right to build a home.
quote:

* To your question:
The 2 millions Palestinians leaving in other parts of "behind the green lines" ARE NOT Israeli citizens, they are Jordenians and or Palestinian Authority residents. They do not want to and will not become Israeli citizens, as Israel is not going to annex their land. (Or do you believe they should..?). Once their leaders become reasonable human beings and stop sending suicide bombers, they will end up with an independant state, where they can do anything they want. Knowing the precedents, they will probably turn it into Lebanese style "democracy" But, that's their problem.

You make it sound so easy by placing the sole resposibility on the Palestinians. Meanwhile, you join the ranks of others on this board of Israeli apologist who believe that Israel cannot and has not done any wrong. You should be ashamed... Welcome to babble.

[ 28 July 2004: Message edited by: Blind_Patriot ]


From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
liminal
rabble-rouser
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posted 28 July 2004 01:24 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:
While I'm generally fairly respectful of Lebanon, I do find myself wondering--so, all the religious groups end up fairly even. What if you're an atheist? Got any rights? Got any representatives?

Rufus:

If I may place your question in the context of a bigger question that haunts me, regarding how people classify you. In a debate I constantly have with people, I tell them that your religious affiliation should be determined by what you believe in, ie, you can only be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or Bhuddist, or..if you believe in Judaism, Christianity,.. and NOT because you were born into a family that is so. Most people disagree with me and say you are classified as something even if you don't practice nor believe. They claim that religion is a culture which you can never denounce. I argue against that determinism, because I think that religion is derived from belief, not birth line.

Coming back to your question, in Lebanon and beyond, they would ignore your atheism, and look at your family, then comment: "ah, you're Christian, or ah you're Druze".

Do you think it's fair? I certainly don't.


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 28 July 2004 01:36 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Liminal, I'd like to respond to your PM, but you have you settings set to not accepting private mail.

Same with Fly133 if you get the chance.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
liminal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5617

posted 28 July 2004 02:05 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
[QB]

Good point Rufus. I believe that Lebanon's covenant is a remarkable achievement, but it seems to be very difficult to change. From what I understand, If a forward thinking Lebanese politician tried to alter his country's Constitution in order to give Palestinians (or athiests) the ability to hold political office, the country would disintegrate, whereas the Prime Minister of Israel could eliminate the racist laws in his country quite easily. An Israeli Civil War wouldn't be in the offing. Perhaps I am mistaken, I don't really know what the political tensions are like in Israel right now. It does look like Israel's quasi democracy is much more flexible than Lebanon's.
[QB]


CMOT, I agree with you. I have respect for the Lebanese covenant in that it is a contract that does not rest on goodwill, as in, if you are a minority, you are never represented, except by the generosity of bigger groups, which leaves you subject to their whims. You have a contract that allows you to be heard regardless of your size (and I always argue that people do not belong less if they are fewer in numbers). You could never be marginalized.
However, there is a paradox. The same contract that vouches your right to be represented, enhances your consciousness of belonging to a particular sect. In Lebanon in particular, most people belong to religious groups as tribes, whether they are believers or not. Accordingly, the system sensitizes your belonging to a certain group at the expense of belonging to a country, and the other groups will always exist to you as an "other". If you abolish the confessional qouta, the group that gains numerical superiority at one point will deprive others, and if you keep it, the group would always behave in distinction of its counterparts.

So, yes, CMOT, it is a loop, and it is not, by any means, flexible. But I fail to think of better alternatives, though I feel frustrated about it.


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
liminal
rabble-rouser
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posted 28 July 2004 02:08 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle:
Can you email me?
If not, can I explain in this thread why I started it this way?

From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 28 July 2004 03:45 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't have your e-mail address. However, the short answer is, I would leave it alone unless the subject comes up again. Why drag unpleasantness from one thread to the other?

Or, if you want to, start a thread in rabble reactions in order to clarify it, so that other threads don't get sidetracked.

Sorry for the cryptic stuff, folks.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 28 July 2004 06:49 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
However, there is a paradox. The same contract that vouches your right to be represented, enhances your consciousness of belonging to a particular sect. In Lebanon in particular, most people belong to religious groups as tribes, whether they are believers or not. Accordingly, the system sensitizes your belonging to a certain group at the expense of belonging to a country, and the other groups will always exist to you as an "other". If you abolish the confessional qouta, the group that gains numerical superiority at one point will deprive others, and if you keep it, the group would always behave in distinction of its counterparts.

If what you say it is true, then the delicate balance in Lebanon won't last. If everything in the Middle East was as static as the Lebanese constitution, there would be no problem, as things stand their will probably be more refugees showing up on Lebanon's borders seeking asylum, which will inevitably disrupt Lebanon's democracy.

[ 28 July 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 28 July 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 28 July 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 28 July 2004 07:58 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:

Coming back to your question, in Lebanon and beyond, they would ignore your atheism, and look at your family, then comment: "ah, you're Christian, or ah you're Druze".

Do you think it's fair? I certainly don't.


Interesting. Yeah, I suppose that's how it would get done. And I guess it would work OK on issues where the religions really do behave like tribes--as long as your tribe-with-a-certain-ancestral-religion gets represented, you're OK. Nobody stops you from owning land or riding the bus.

The only difficulty comes in with respect to stuff where religions actually behave like religions. So for instance, if the balance between religious groups meant everyone got their own little school system teaching their own languages and traditions *and religions*, that would probably mean that as an atheist you end up with no access to secular schools. Note that for all I know, Lebanon may have secular schools left and right, I'm just saying that's the kind of issue where being a muslim is suddenly different from being an atheist of muslim parentage.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
liminal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5617

posted 28 July 2004 08:20 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fly133:


In Lebanon - remind me again how do Jews have "a piece of the cake" exactly?
[QUOTE]

The number of Jewish Lebanese is dwindling and has always been negligible despite trebbling in 1948, nevertheless, in the confessional quota, there are a couple of parliamentary seats in Beirut for minorities (aimed at the Jews and Christian minorities like the Assyrians).

[ 28 July 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 28 July 2004 08:55 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The number of Jewish Lebanese is dwindling and has always been negligible despite trebbling in 1948

Why would it grow? Was there a baby boom in 1948?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
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posted 29 July 2004 10:47 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:
[QB][QUOTE]Originally posted by Fly133:

In Lebanon - remind me again how do Jews have "a piece of the cake" exactly?
[QUOTE]

The number of Jewish Lebanese is dwindling and has always been negligible despite trebbling in 1948, nevertheless, in the confessional quota, there are a couple of parliamentary seats in Beirut for minorities (aimed at the Jews and Christian minorities like the Assyrians).

QB]


liminal, can you please point me to the source of the stats of "trebbling in 1948." Where did all these Jews come from?

You are right, the Jewish community has "dwindled" probably because of "fear" of being kidnapped and murdered.

The Jews of Lebanon

In the mid-1980's, Hezbollah kidnapped several prominent Jews from Beirut - most were leaders of what remained of the country's tiny Jewish community. Four of the Jews were later found murdered. Nearly all of the remaining Jews are in Beirut, where there is a committee that represents the community. Because of the current political situation, Jews are unable to openly practice Judaism.

Library of Congress Country Studies

Nevertheless, the rise of Muslim fundamentalists, especially in the aftermath of the Israeli invasion of 1982, constituted a real threat to Lebanese Jews. Organizations such as the Khaybar Brigades and the Organization of the Oppressed of the Earth claimed responsibility for kidnapping and killing several Lebanese Jews between 1984 and 1987. As of 1987 it was estimated that only a dozen Jews remained in West Beirut, and some seventy others in the eastern sector of the city.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 July 2004 05:28 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Report: Honour killing story a hoax

quote:
Jordanian MP Hayat al-Masimi told Aljazeera the media had exaggerated the level of so-called honour killing in Jordan.

"The percentage of people killed under the phrase 'honour killing' are very few compared to those killed for other reasons," she said. "We can not say it is a phenomenon."

Note the spelling of "Honour". No wonder the
Yanks hate Al Jazeera.

[ 29 July 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 July 2004 08:53 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not quite sure where the connection to Lebanon comes in there, al-Q.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 July 2004 10:29 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Honour killings...and are you kidding me?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 July 2004 12:43 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, I'm genuinely confused. I'm trying to figure out the link. I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't really know what honour killings in Jordan (or the exaggerated reports of honour killings in Jordan) has to do with Lebanese democracy. Is there a link or a tangent that I've missed?

I was asking in all sincerity.

[ 30 July 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 30 July 2004 01:32 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Check the first post on this thread.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 30 July 2004 03:49 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Honour killings...and are you kidding me?

Human Rights Watch wrote to Jordanian Prime Minister Abdel Rauf Rawabdeh saying 11 Jordanian women had been killed by family members this year for alleged improper behaviour, which often involved sexual relationships.

The organisation said it was deeply concerned over the killings.

"Approximately 25 to 30 women are killed in Jordan each year in the name of honour and crimes of honour constitute about one third of the number of the country's homicides," HRW said.

"We are particularly concerned that the government's failures to abolish the laws allowing lenient treatment of such crimes and to punish appropriately those who commit them contribute to a climate of impunity for this form of violence against women," it said.
King Abdullah promised to amend laws which discriminate against women, following his ascension to the throne in February.


Jordanian Honour Killings Condemned

[ 30 July 2004: Message edited by: Khadiija ]


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 30 July 2004 04:41 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Friday, August 13, 1999 Published at 16:22 GMT 17:22 UK
World: Middle East
Jordanian 'honour killings' condemned

Your story is five years old. Have there been any recent developments?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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posted 30 July 2004 01:55 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Why would it grow? Was there a baby boom in 1948?


No, but due to the influx of Jewish refugees from Syria and Iraq, the number of Jews in lebanon grew from 5,000 to almost 14,000 (however, only 5,000 were Lebanese).

http://www.lebanonwire.com/0308/03082904DS.asp
.

quote:
Lebanon was the only Arab country in which the number of Jews grew after the establishment of the state of Israel and the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948, with the influx of Syrian and Iraqi Jews growing to number some 14,000


As Lebanese, the Jewish Lebanese propspered in Lebanon's heydays, and suffered bitterly during Lebanon's ordeals, particularly during the civil war, where Lebanese of ALL confessions were velunrable and at mercy of the thugs and terrorists of the myriad armed militias that reigned the streets, looting, kidnapping and killing, playing with the fates of Lebanese civilians, be it Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or Druze, and going as they pleased in the absence of the state.
It is important to mention that the Jewish Lebanese numbers began declining after 1967, due to immigration, DESPITE the fact that neither the state discriminated against its own citizens, nor were there progoms involved.

I believe that there is a serious dearth of studies about the Jewish Lebanese vis-a-vis the scores of invetigations about other Lebanese sects (so, academic discrimination ) . The book, which is relatively most comprehensive is :

The Jews of Lebanon: Between Coexistence and Conflict (Kirsten Schulze, Sussex academic Press, 2001).


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 30 July 2004 07:35 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, yes, CMOT, it is a loop, and it is not, by any means, flexible. But I fail to think of better alternatives, though I feel frustrated about it.


OK, but why did Israel's democracy develop differently? Is it and because Israel is a much more homogeneous country and doesn't have the same sort of religious and ethnic divisions that Lebanon does?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 30 July 2004 08:59 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:

No, but due to the influx of Jewish refugees from Syria and Iraq, the number of Jews in lebanon grew from 5,000 to almost 14,000 (however, only 5,000 were Lebanese).


The welcome wagon was not there for long.

Anti Zionist or Anti-Semitic?
Between 1984 and 1986 eleven Lebanese Jews, including prominent members of the community, were taken hostage by the Organization of the Oppressed of the Earth, which has links with Hizbullah. Despite international appeals, only four bodies have been recovered to date.

Parties, organizations, movements
As in previous years, militant Islamists based in Lebanon continue to invoke antisemitic themes to discredit Islam. A common theme is that of an international Jewish conspiracy; for example, the spiritual leader of Hizbullah, Sayyid Muhammed Husayn Fadlallah, regards hostility to Israel as part of the "old struggle of the Muslims against the Jewish conspiracy against Islam". In many of his speeches, the distinction between anti-Zionism and antisemitism is blurred. In a speech broadcast on 14 April on Radio Islam (in the midst of the "Grapes of Wrath" operation) Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, the general secretary of Hizbullah, called the struggle "our heroic and honourable confrontation against Zionist Jews, killers of prophets".

Hostility to the USA is also combined with antisemitic statements. In an article published in al-Anwar , on 27 July, Fadlallah admonished the "new US ploy led by the Jewish lobby in Congress".


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 31 July 2004 02:35 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Between 1984 and 1986...

Remind us what Lebanon-related activities the Israeli Army was engaged in during this time.

Were the thousands of Arab Lebanese and Palestinians they killed a product of Israeli anti-Arabism?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 01 August 2004 02:43 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
[QB]

Remind us what Lebanon-related activities the Israeli Army was engaged in during this time.

QB]


They were Jewish Lebanese civilians not Israeli soldiers. That great democracy of Lebanon was not able to protect their small Jewish community.

liminal's statement:
It is important to mention that the Jewish Lebanese numbers began declining after 1967, due to immigration, DESPITE the fact that neither the state discriminated against its own citizens, nor were there progoms involved.


I assume he meant pogrom. When you wake up and find the leaders of the Jewish community have been kidnapped you realize even though you are a citizen in the great democratic republic of Lebanon, you leave town, real fast.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 August 2004 03:06 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
They were Jewish Lebanese civilians not Israeli soldiers. That great democracy of Lebanon was not able to protect their small Jewish community.

They couldn't protect anyone, Muslim or Jewish. They were under attack by one of the strongest militaries in the world, or did that minor point slip your mind?

Not until Hizb Allah became strong enough to defend them were the Lebanese able to protect themselves.


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Khadiija
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posted 01 August 2004 10:21 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Lebanese Jews were not involved in the conflict yet since they were Jews, they were targets. Anti Zionist or Anti-Semitic?

The answer is obvious.

[ 01 August 2004: Message edited by: Khadiija ]


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 August 2004 01:09 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Obvious only to those with Zionist-coloured glasses.
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liminal
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posted 01 August 2004 02:29 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Obvious only to those with Zionist-coloured glasses.

Al-Q, don't waste your time with countering propaganda.

Obviously, some posters here are unaware (or just faking it) that from 1975-1991, Lebanon was in civil war, and during that civil war, all the central government could protect was the front lawn of the presidential palace (not even). The army disintegrated, the police force collapsed, and the reign in the streets was left to the hundreds of armed militias that wreaked havoc on the Lebanese civilians (kidnapping, looting, murdering, raping, carving fiefdoms out of ransacked neighborhoods..), who were not part of the conflict (someone here made the insinuation that the non-Jewish Lebanese were, when they said the the Jewish Lebanese were not part of the conflict).

The conditions of anarchy and absence of law applied to ALL Lebanese civilians, and to isolate a specific group and claim that only they were victims of the civil war is racist. It is as if non-Jewish Lebanese, who endured the exact circumstances, are not worthy of being mentioned. It is as if to claim that since some militias identified themselves as Muslim or Christian, the blood of Christian and Muslim civilians spilled deservedly, being "part of the conflict". This logic might extend to Israel, who identified itself as Jewish. I find this this logic atrocious and insulting, but can I expect any better from the authors of such claims?

Obviously some posters did not live in Beirut between 1984 and 1986, and did not face daily the nightmare of going out of the house for work or study (even face the fear of being attacked in the "safety" of this house) and the high probability of not coming back. You had tens of thousands of Lebanese civilians missing and murdered. You had only hundreds of Jewish Lebanese. You do the math.

However, when Lebanon was NOT in a state of civil war, and the Lebanese sate had control of Lebanon, the Lebanese faced no discrmination, neither in law nor in practice, for being Jewish, and even the most pro-Zionist sources like the Israel-US.org and their ilk could not deny it. To use the context of the civil war, but pretending that everything was normal (between 1984 and 1986), and to isolate victims of a certain group from countless other victims, as if what they faced was specific only to them, is wishful thinking.

I would like to see how some posters would react to the fact that, in 1982 during the Israeli invasion, Jewish Lebanese threatened the Israelis that they would go on a Jewish Anti-Israel demonstration, if the Israelis didn't stop sending undercover agents disguised as Palestinians to harass local Jews. what would the same posters say if told that not only did the Jewish Lebanese not feel compelled to immigrate to Israel, but also that many of the few who did, came back to Lebanon. They preferred Lebanon much more to the "promised land".

[ 01 August 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]

[ 01 August 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 01 August 2004 08:33 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Khadiija:
Lebanese Jews were not involved in the conflict yet since they were Jews, they were targets. Anti Zionist or Anti-Semitic?

The answer is obvious.


Anti-semitic.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 02 August 2004 12:22 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'll take "Solipsism" for two hundred, please Alex.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 02 August 2004 10:27 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Khadiija:
Lebanese Jews were not involved in the conflict yet since they were Jews, they were targets. Anti Zionist or Anti-Semitic?

The answer is obvious.


Yes, definitely anti-semitic.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 August 2004 10:30 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Khadija, if you have something to contribute, great. If you're going to spam the thread with the same post over and over, please refrain.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 02 August 2004 11:04 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
"I'll take "Solipsism" for two hundred, please Alex."

I suppose the above statement was a positive contribution to discussion on Jews being kidnapped and murdered?

[ 02 August 2004: Message edited by: Khadiija ]


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 August 2004 11:05 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought it was a fair comment on the fact that your contribution is to quote yourself and answer yourself instead of addressing the discussion that's happening here.

If you want to discuss this further, take it to rabble reactions.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 02 August 2004 11:08 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
My comment was a fair reaction to his post.
From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 August 2004 11:09 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I disagree. And I'm moderating. So knock it off. Or take it to rabble reactions if you want to discuss my decision. End of discussion in this thread.

[ 02 August 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 02 August 2004 11:37 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, my deepest apologies, it must be my multiple personalities acting up again. Wait till you meet my other sister. We will try and answer only to other people's posts.

quote:
Originally posted by liminal:

...the Jewish Lebanese not feel compelled to immigrate to Israel, but also that many of the few who did, came back to Lebanon. They preferred Lebanon much more to the "promised land".


liminal, you obviously did not read the link YOU posted.

"Today there are about 100 practicing Lebanese Jews remaining in the country."

They did not "dwindle" because of the civil war, they "dwindled" because the leaders of the Jewish community were kidnapped and murdered.

So, I think the Lebanse government is very generous to offer a seat in parliament to represent the 100 Jews left.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 August 2004 11:55 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wait till you meet my other sister.

Thanks, Khadiija. I appreciate it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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posted 02 August 2004 07:34 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
Some posters here insist on insulting the intelligence of others. Speaking of not reading what people post (or rather reading but keeping a blind eye), someone here exonerates the civil war from the decline in the Jewish Lebanese population, and blames it on the kidnapping and murder of leaders of the community.
In the links they’ve provided, all sources (my reservation of the sources provided, but still) concur in that those incidents of abduction and murder were conducted between 1984 and 1986 (not 1964 and 1966). The last I checked, the Lebanese civil war stretched from 1975 to 1991. Unless the civil war was a grand sham concocted by the Lebanese to fool the Lebanese civilians (and the whole world), or unless the 1980s didn’t take place and the world crossed straight to the 1990s from the 1970s, the tragedies that fell on the Jewish Lebanese are snapshots of the tragedies that fell on ALL Lebanese civilians, and to turn the blind eye on the non-Jewish victims (Lebanon lost almost 3% of its population) is at best an effort at myth making, and at worst plain racism.

Since the myth of Lebanese anti-Semitism is debunked by Lebanese law, authors of propaganda, failing to find any evidence of discrimination on behalf of the Lebanese state against its own population of Jewish belonging, rely on the incidents that took place under the cover of anarchy and absence of law, and isolate those incidents from the scores of similar ones that targeted ALL other groups without exception, giving the false impression that what happened to the Jewish Lebanese resulted from them being Jews, not ordinary Lebanese civilians at the mercy of armed thugs.

I guess in propaganda, it is OK to sweep facts under a rug and maximize on the ignorance of people. Oh well, another myth to add to unicorns and “butchered sisters”.


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 02 August 2004 08:01 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Come on man. You must be pulling my leg. There must be at least couple of anti semitic thugs in Lebanon. What about Hezbollah? Robert Fisk wrote an article about the prevalance of books like the protocols of Zion in the Arab World. He said you can buy that ridiculous Tzarist comic book in beirut bookshops. What are Lebanon's anti hate laws like?

[ 02 August 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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posted 02 August 2004 08:18 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
CMOT, never said there wasn't. No country is free from bigots and racists. Moreover, in Lebanon, we have already talked about the downside of the confessional covenant in that it sensitizes people's belonging to a group. In general, people don't like anyone who does not share their confession, and there is a state of perpetual competition between the sects. However, people usually indulge in collective hypocrisy.

What I am saying is that anti-Judaism, as much as anti-Chritianity, as much as anti-Islam, is NOT institutionalized, nor tolerated by the state, which recognizes 17 official sects. Some assertions were made here as if to imply that anti-Semitic incidents are over looked by, even encouraged, the state, and as if only Jews are targetted. I am simply correcting the untrue claim by saying that the Jewish Lebanese victims were only some of the myriad Lebanese victims that suffered under the ABSENCE of the state. If the Jewish civilians were victims of anti-Semitism, then why were Muslim, Christian, Druze, even Bhuddist civilians assaulted much more frequently? However, under the rule of law, no events of this kind took place, or will take place.

As for hate laws, I personally have no idea about them, but I assume that they apply when statements or publications carry a risk of reigniting civil strife. Moreover, I know that people can sue for moral injury, but the actual workings of the law elude me.

[ 03 August 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 03 August 2004 10:45 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:

What I am saying is that anti-Judaism, as much as anti-Chritianity, as much as anti-Islam, is NOT institutionalized, nor tolerated by the state, which recognizes 17 official sects. Some assertions were made here as if to imply that anti-Semitic incidents are over looked by, even encouraged, the state, and as if only Jews are targetted. I am simply correcting the untrue claim by saying that the Jewish Lebanese victims were only some of the myriad Lebanese victims that suffered under the ABSENCE of the state.

Was the state "absent" when this garbage was broadcast last fall? It seems that it was tolerated by the Lebanese Foreign Minister.


The television series “The Diaspora” (Al-Shatat)

quote:
The above are scenes from the 20 th episode of “ Al-Shatat” (the Diaspora, that is, the exile of the Jewish people). “Al-Shatat” was an elaborate, costly Syrian production broadcast by al-Manar, the Hezbollah TV satellite station in Lebanon in late October-November, 2003, during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, when TV viewing peaks . The program presented a viciously anti-Semitic, pseudo-historical survey of the history of Zionism and the Jewish people. The 20 th episode (broadcast on November 19, 2003) was devoted to the classic anti-Semitic blood libel which accuses the Jews of using the blood of Christian children to bake matzos [unleavened bread] for Passover . Having being attacked by the United States for its blatant anti-Semitism, the Lebanese Foreign Minister defended Hezbollah's right to broadcast the show in the name of “freedom of expression.”

[ 03 August 2004: Message edited by: Khadiija ]


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 03 August 2004 10:52 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Khadiija:

Any chance you could use the quote tags to enclose the text you're copying in from your links? At this point I tend not to even read your posts because I can't tell which are your words and which are someone else's.

(Sorry for going off-topic.)


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 03 August 2004 10:55 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Slim,

I am not that great with computers. Can you PM me and tell me how to use it?

Thanks!


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 03 August 2004 12:50 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:

What I am saying is that anti-Judaism, as much as anti-Chritianity, as much as anti-Islam, is NOT institutionalized, nor tolerated by the state, which recognizes 17 official sects.

Do Lebanese censors have a different view of tolerance than other countries?

Muslim Anti-Semitism by Bernard Lewis

quote:
Even Independence Day, which has nothing to do with either the Nazis or the Middle East, was denounced in Arab circles because it has a Jewish hero, and that is unacceptable. The film won approval for release in Lebanon only after the censors had removed all indications of the Jewishness of the hero—the skullcap, the Hebrew prayer, the momentary appearance of Israelis and Arabs working side by side in a desert outpost. A Hizbullah press liaison officer explained his objection to the film. "This film polishes and presents the Jews as a very humane people. You are releasing false images about them.".

From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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posted 03 August 2004 11:47 PM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
from the new york times, august 12 1982

---
"Beirut's Only Synagogue is Casualty of the Israelis" (There is no link, I had to photocopy from library)
...
"Beirut, Lebanon, August 11, (AP) Israeli Shell's have fallen on Beirut's only synagogue, sending dozens of Jewish Families fleeing for safety, residents said today"
...
" "My house is broken, My house is broken", an old jewish woman, practically deaf, mumbled in french..."
...
"Jewish Residents say they have not been harassed by their Moslem neighbors or the palestinians since israelis invaded Lebanon..."
...
" Neighborhood residents, including the Jewish families, said Israeli artillery firing from east beirut and gunboats cruising offshore had persistently pounded the district..."
...
" A week ago, during a fierce israeli assault, a shell blew a hole in the roof of the cream-colored synagogue, sending about 60 jewish and muslim refugees sleeping there fleeing into the street... the building is now locked vacant..."
---


I guess it took the IOF years to perfect the art of pinpointing someone in a wheelchair, in 1982, they could still miss and "accidentally" hit synagogues. Oh wait, they could still miss in 1996 and "accidentally" hit a UN compound.

Oh and btw, for what it's worth, I remember in 11th grade (in lebanon), in our history class, we had to do a research project (video). The main topic was the Holocaust. I also remember that we got copies of Schindler's List and had to use parts of the movie in our video presentation. The Holocaust did NOT escape our education system.

[ 03 August 2004: Message edited by: mjollnir ]


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 04 August 2004 12:41 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mjollnir:
"Jewish Residents say they have not been harassed by their Moslem neighbors or the palestinians since israelis invaded Lebanon..."
...
" A week ago, during a fierce israeli assault, a shell blew a hole in the roof of the cream-colored synagogue...

What rubbish. Many buildings were hit during the battle, not just the synagogue.

But next time you visit Lebanon you may find the Lebanese edition of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion in your local bookstore.

Date of publication : 2000

quote:
An excerpt from the Introduction :
“You, the citizen, must read this book and then read it again, analyze it and be aware of [its contents], so that we may know the truth about our enemies and [be able to] recognize his diabolical plots and snake-like methods . Knowing the enemy is one step on our path to victory” (p. 10)

And then there is your favourite and mine, Mein Kampf.

These are photos of the 1975 and 1995 editions and in 1999 it was a best seller.

quote:
Publisher : Dar Sadir, Beirut (a Lebanese publishing house owned by the Sadir family); and Bisan Publishing (a Palestinian-owned Lebanese publishing house)
Date of publication : 1995 (Second edition) (First edition, 1963)
Distribution : The book is distributed by the Palestinian Authority through Al-Shuruq Company in Ramallah and in the recent past (1999) was a best-seller.

[ 04 August 2004: Message edited by: Khadiija ]


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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posted 04 August 2004 12:52 AM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
That "rubbish" is from the NY times, not my own words.
There was only one synagogue in beirut, must have been quite the freak accident.

Here's some more "rubbish" from the leader of the lebanese jewish community, in 1982:

"The Lebanese Jews are grateful to Mr. Arafat. We have no need of any outside protection because no one has touched a hair on our heads. We reject Israeli reports that the community is in any danger. We want no outside protectors, Israeli or otherwise. We simply plan to go on living as we always have, as Lebanese."

So what was your counter-argument? The fact that two books that weren't written in Lebanon, and are popular in many other countries (and other languages) , were translated to arabic? Yeah, providing us with excerpts from the books really proved your point.


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 04 August 2004 01:06 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mjollnir:
...from the leader of the lebanese jewish community, in 1982:

"The Lebanese Jews are grateful to Mr. Arafat. We have no need of any outside protection because no one has touched a hair on our heads. We reject Israeli reports that the community is in any danger. We want no outside protectors, Israeli or otherwise. We simply plan to go on living as we always have, as Lebanese."


Right, go back to Lebanon and find this "leader of the Jewish community" if you can. You see, 11 of those "leaders" were kidnapped and murdered between 1984-6 and so far only 4 bodies have been found.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 August 2004 02:06 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Saskatoon Public Library has copies of Mein Kampf (perhaps the most boring book ever written).

Should I contact the authorities?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 04 August 2004 02:41 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
(stumbling into another free-fire zone)
Hey, I realize this is out of the blue,...but there was this Lebanese radical in the 80's that I thought was pretty cool at the time, Jamblatt...Walid Jamblatt I think...a Lebanese patriot of some kind. What's he up to? Or have we pretty well given up talking about Lebanese democracy?

From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 04 August 2004 04:28 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
so far only 4 bodies have been found.

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how many bodies of the 44,000 people killed in the Lebanese civil war are still missing? Or how many people were kidnapped and are still missing? I'm betting it's more than 7. I'm betting it's closer to 17,000. Oh wait, it *is* 17,000! How about that?

You've still not responded to the fact that this was a civil war that engulfed the entire country, not some kind of pogrom. Shouldn't you also be concerned about the other 39,989 people who died?

But don't let that stop you posting and reposting from your talking points.

[ 04 August 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 04 August 2004 04:39 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
The Saskatoon Public Library has copies of Mein Kampf (perhaps the most boring book ever written).

Should I contact the authorities?


I own a copy. You can contact the authorities any time you want.

I'll be glad to surrender my sleeping pi.. ZZZzzzzZZZ.. Oh, sorry, did I fall asleep over Chapter 1 again?

If anybody can wade through that book and not fall asleep over it, lemme know. I'll recommend that person to be used for testing sleeping pills on the hardcases.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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posted 04 August 2004 05:23 AM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
The number of those killed stands closer to 150,000 than to 44,000.
according to the Red Cross, 17000+ were killed during the 82 invasion alone. 7000+ were killed in beirut alone during the siege and the indiscriminate shelling of the IOF.
So, it was not uncommon for any religious community to experience casualties.
During the 80s, there was a nasty habit-practiced by militias- of killing anyone of the other religion. If you'd happen to stumble on the wrong checkpoint, and happen to be of the wrong confession, you'd be slaughtered. No one was immune. Almost invariably, anyone who had an option of leaving to another country left.

between 84 and 86, law wasn't really upheld. Assasinations, Kidnapping (even of university professors), massacres, etc... were occurring left and right. Judging the country based on those years is hardly fair.


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 04 August 2004 11:32 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

I own a copy. You can contact the authorities any time you want.


Whoooosh!

Your copy was not written for the Lebanese market and distributed by the Palestinian Authority for the purpose of creating hatred towards Jews.

I'm guissing here but I'll bet your library also contains a bible. We are still waiting to hear the passage that backs up your claim that prophecy requires the messiah to enter from the Eastern gate...


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 04 August 2004 11:42 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:

Perhaps you could enlighten us...


Aroused, perhaps it would be a good idea if you read the entire thread before posting.

The way Jews were treated in Lebanon declined and caused the community to "dwindle." You can see that based on the what is allowed to be seen on TV and what is not shown in the theatres that Jews are not treated the same as Muslims in the great "democracy" of Lebanon.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 04 August 2004 12:08 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You can see that based on the what is allowed to be seen on TV and what is not shown in the theatres that Jews are not treated the same as Muslims in the great "democracy" of Lebanon.

Based on what you post, from who knows what websites. Forgive us if we are skeptical.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 04 August 2004 12:15 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
If you read the link I provided you would know.
From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 04 August 2004 01:22 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Middle East Forum? Promoting American Interests? Surely you jest.

[ 04 August 2004: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 04 August 2004 01:23 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey, I realize this is out of the blue,...but there was this Lebanese radical in the 80's that I thought was pretty cool at the time, Jamblatt...Walid Jamblatt I think...a Lebanese patriot of some kind. What's he up to? Or have we pretty well given up talking about Lebanese democracy?

Walid Jumblatt currently lives in Damascus. I'm not sure what he does these days, but he is still alive.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
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posted 04 August 2004 02:41 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
The Middle East Forum? Promoting American Interests? Surely you jest.

Interesting how selective you are in reading the thread.


Lebanon is also another center spreading anti-Semitic propaganda trough the written and electronic media and by books published there. The radical Iranian-oriented terrorist organization, Hezbollah, leads that field and it is supported by senior figures and various groups. A few examples follow:

quote:
In Lebanon today Hezbollah leads the anti-Semitic propaganda "export" market, its "products" going to the Arab and Muslim world in the Middle East, Far East and the West. The propaganda clearly reflects the organization's radical ideology and the continued vision of the late leader of the Muslim Iranian revolution, Ayatollah Ruhallah Khomeini. The cornerstone of that ideology is the continued, relentless battle to be waged against the State of Israel until it is destroyed . As in many other instances, anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic propaganda are indistinguishable .



From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 August 2004 04:02 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Lebanon is also another center spreading anti-Semitic propaganda trough the written and electronic media and by books published there. The radical Iranian-oriented terrorist organization, Hezbollah, leads that field and it is supported by senior figures and various groups. A few examples follow:

For one thing, the owners of a credible website wouldn't allow "trough" to pass through its proofreaders' hands to the public.

These people suggest that Lebanon isn't really a country, but is instead a "center spreading anti-Semitic propaganda."

The statement "The radical Iranian-oriented terrorist organization, Hezbollah" is fraught with so many prejudices and stereotypes that it betrays more about the ideological slant of the writer than it tells us about Hizb Allah.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 04 August 2004 04:15 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

For one thing, the owners of a credible website ...

If you're talking about www.intelligence.org.il, it's an Israeli site produced for and by the Israeli intelligence community. That doesn't in itself discredit it or any of the information on it, but it certainly makes it partisan. Apparently the source for much of the material on the site is documents recovered from occupied Palestinian territory.

Given recent examples of intelligence, psyops and the reliability of documents recovered in "conquered" territory (see Iraq, invasion of) I believe a certain amount scepticism is appropriate without independent verification as per the usual journalistic standard. (Or what used to be the usual journalistic standard -- that's taken a beating too, lately.)


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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Babbler # 1962

posted 04 August 2004 04:28 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Aroused, perhaps it would be a good idea if you read the entire thread before posting.

Yo Momma twice.

Michelle: Sorry, but that's all they get when they put crap like that forward as a refutation/counterargument.

39989 dead. Or 149989 dead. 17000+ disappeared without a trace. But for Khadija, the only ones that count are the 11 'Jewish leaders' (quotes in original).

Feh.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 05 August 2004 08:15 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Was that last link a Mossad site? (intelligence.org.il) Forgive me if I repeat my previous sentiment: Surely you jest.

BTW, I'm not reading selectively, I'm skimming. What else does one do with such a volume of garbage, really?

[ 05 August 2004: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 05 August 2004 02:25 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Slim:

If you're talking about www.intelligence.org.il, it's an Israeli site produced for and by the Israeli intelligence community. That doesn't in itself discredit it or any of the information on it, but it certainly makes it partisan. Apparently the source for much of the material on the site is documents recovered from occupied Palestinian territory.

Given recent examples of intelligence, psyops and the reliability of documents recovered in "conquered" territory (see Iraq, invasion of) I believe a certain amount scepticism is appropriate without independent verification as per the usual journalistic standard.


Slim, I read your post just after reading this morning's National Post. There is a story on page A9 from the Daily Telegraph that is very interesting.

Apparently those documents that were found in the raid of Arafat's compond in Ramallah in April 2002 showed that Arafat was diverting money to suicide bombers.

Well Sarcasmobri, even though you may not believe the claims, (Surely you jest.) officials with the European Union do. The Office European de Lutte Anti-Fraude (OLAF)sent investigators to Israel to examine the documents.


quote:
Investigators decided the material was authentic and now want to substantiate the allegations from the testimony of al-Aqsa members held in Israel.

A request to interview them was recently submitted to the National Security Council's anti-terror headquarters.

A BBC documentary broadcast last year claimed the Palestinian Authority is paying members of the Brigades, a militia responsible for suicide attacks against Israelis, up to $66,000 a month.

Fatah detainees have previously told reporters they received financial support from the Palestinian Authority and were even given instructions from senior security service officials on carrying out attacks.

In the past decade, the EU has transferred about more than $2-billion to the Palestinian Authority. European support for the Authority is currently about $15.5-million a month.

Last year, a report by the International Monetary Fund said senior Palestinian officials had funnelled almost $1-billion in funds from donor countries and profits from corrupt business monopolies in the territories into overseas bank accounts.

One of the beneficiaries is said to be Mr. Arafat's wife, Suha, who lives in Paris. France is investigating the money transfers.



From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
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posted 05 August 2004 06:16 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

For one thing, the owners of a credible website wouldn't allow "trough" to pass through its proofreaders' hands to the public.

al-Qa'bong, I guess this paper is not credible either
.
OOPS!

quote:
The listing of New York Lotto results on June 7 included one incorrect number for June 5. A letter newly received from a reader points out that 52 was not a winner; the numbers were 17, 20, 23, 36, 51 and 59, and the supplementary number was 57.

quote:
An article yesterday about a campaign appearance by President Bush before a group of cardinals and other Roman Catholic voters in Dallas misstated the middle initial of the archbishop of Washington. He is Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick, not R.

I guess The New York Times is not a credible newspaper because the owners of a credible website wouldn't allow the wrong Lotto number or the letter R. instead of E. to pass through its proofreaders' hands to the public.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 05 August 2004 06:22 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Khadiija:
Apparently those documents that were found in the raid of Arafat's compond in Ramallah in April 2002 showed that Arafat was diverting money to suicide bombers.

I acknowledged that having an agenda doesn't automatically discredit everything they say. But getting one thing, or even several things, right doesn't alter the fact that the site is partisan. That means every claim should be carefully examined. And it means there may be very careful selection of what to report and what to omit.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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Babbler # 3807

posted 05 August 2004 06:42 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I guess The New York Times is not a credible newspaper because the owners of a credible website wouldn't allow the wrong Lotto number or the letter R. instead of E. to pass through its proofreaders' hands to the public.

No, the New York Times lacks credibility for other reasons.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
liminal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5617

posted 05 August 2004 07:00 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
Deflection Alert. Deflection Alert.

Just for fun, I will extensively review one of the core credible sources provided by a certain "concerned" poster.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/lebjews.html


quote:
1948 Jewish population: 20,000

Err, nope. The Jewish population in 1948 was 5,000. It grew to 14,000 due to influx of Jewish asylum seekers from Syria and Iraq. It never reached 20,000. Moreover, the number of Jewish Lebanese was 5,000 because the others were not naturalized. But I guess in propaganda, what counts is what is more dramatic, not what is more accurate.

quote:
When Christian Arabs ruled Lebanon, Jews enjoyed relative toleration.

Lebanon was NOT ruled by Christian Arabs. Lebanon was ruled by a both Christians and Muslims via a national pact. "Jews enjoyed relative toleration". Oh no! The Jews did not enjoy "toleration", let alone "relative". The Jewish Lebanese enjoyed full rights of citizenship. They were not "tolerated" (a condescending term of the highest caliber) thanks to the benevolence of Christians and Muslims, as shown, but they enjoyed their rights being citizens and an official minority in a country of minorities.

quote:
As Jews in an Arab country, however, their position was never secure, and the majority left in 1967

He talks about them as if they were expatriates in a foreign land, not citizens of their own state. He says that they were never secure, because they lived in an Arab country. Why weren't they secure? His answer, they lived in an Arab country. That in itself should be sufficient to back his claim. Was their insecurity caused by pogroms? No. Harassment? No. State discrimination? No. Physical and verbal assaults? No. Were their bank accounts frozen? No. Were they forbidden from moving freely and buying property where they wished?
No. They were just "Jews in an Arab country”, so regardless of their conditions, they were never secure since Arabs are hordes of barbarians with anti-Jewish genes. This is the only logical implication I could deduce out of his dubious sentence. He would have been better off mentioning why the "tolerance" was "relative", not full, and why they were actually "insecure". Obviously, had he had substantiated evidence of "persecution", he wouldn't have hesitated, but since he couldn't mention a single incident to corroborate his propaganda, he relies on the Arabness of the country to do the job.

quote:
Fighting in the 1975-76 Muslim-Christian civil war swirled around the Jewish Quarter in Beirut, damaging many Jewish homes, businesses and synagogues. Most of the remaining 1,800 Lebanese Jews emigrated in 1976, fearing the growing Syrian presence in Lebanon would curtail their freedom of emigration.

In the war of 2 years (1975-1977), the warring factions were the leftist anti-establishment National Movement (secular and mixed) versus the right wing conservative Lebanese front, not Christians and Muslims, as many sources fallaciously claim. The chief battleground was the center of Beirut, now a demarcation line between the 2 sectors of the city. Wadi Abu Jmeel, the old Jewish quarter was located in Beirut's downtown, so no, it's not Christians fighting Muslims on Jewish grounds. Moreover, the PLO placed guards in the neighborhood to protect it from looting and vandalism that plagued all properties and businesses of the desolate downtown. Most of the 1,800 Jews emigrated like the tens of thousands of Lebanese from other factions to escape the war. If Mr. Bard were living in Beirut at the time, and could afford to leave, he would've. The fighting started in April 1975, and the Syrians didn’t enter Beirut until September 1976. When your apartment falls in the line of fire, this is what causes you to flee.

quote:
In the mid-1980's, Hezbollah kidnapped several prominent Jews from Beirut - most were leaders of what remained of the country's tiny Jewish community. Four of the Jews were later found murdered. Nearly all of the remaining Jews are in Beirut, where there is a committee that represents the community.1 Because of the current political situation, Jews are unable to openly practice Judaism.

Finally, a sight for sore Zionist eyes: Jewish casualties in an Arab country, especially Lebanon. Too bad the country was burning in civil war, anarchy, and an Israeli invasion, and too bad that it is not logical to assess a state when it doesn’t exist, and too bad that the Jewish victims were only a fraction of tens of thousands of Lebanese victims of all confessions. Does that matter in propaganda? No. He isolates the Jewish victims from others, making them appear as the only victims, and logically victims for being Jewish, not victims for being Lebanese. Moreover, most of the kidnapped were either taken by armed groups that did not officially confess to the deed, or murdered by anybody for all sorts of reasons (theft, family problems, homicide, fratricide. I mean, anyone could go and kill someone and hide his/her body, and no one would ever know, in such circumstances of anarchy), or taken by one of the hundreds of militias that mushroomed in Lebanon every day, or taken by the Syrian intelligence, or even abducted by Israeli agents (The Israelis were still in Sidon,30 minutes south of Beirut, and they did not withdraw till 1985, so it would be very easy to stage operations in Beirut, when there was no one to stop them. It is very likely since they sent their cronies dressed up as Palestinians to harass local Jews in Beirut in 1982, and were threatened by a Jewish anti-Israel demonstration as mentioned in Kirsten Schulze’s book). One of the organizations to claim responsibility for the kidnapping of some of the Jewish Lebanese was the fictitious Organization of the Oppressed of the Earth, an organization that had no visible existence, and that vanished in thin air after the assaults (could easily be a smokescreen). This organization is NOT Hizbollah, and even though some speculate that it might be an offshoot of or related to Hizbollah, they have no proof to back their accusation.

Finally, Mr. Bard claims that Jews in post war Lebanon cannot openly practice Judaism because of the “current political situation”. What “current political situation” is he talking about? He doesn’t elaborate (surprise, surprise). Are Jewish Lebanese imprisoned? No. Are they forbidden from voting and running for elections? If so, then I guess the ballot boxes designated to them (since voters in Lebanon are divided according to both geography and confession) are in fact designated to Muslims in disguise
! Are they barred from worshipping or renovating the synagogue in Beirut? No. The company for the reconstruction of the downtown has had extensive contacts with the representatives of the sect in order to rehabilitate the synagogue, since the company allocates the fixing of religious edifices for religious councils. The representatives are eager to commence the works, but are taking their time due to the lack of funds. The irony about the synagogue is that, during the war, unlike scores of churches and mosques that were flattened in the area, it is still standing, damaged mainly by Israeli shelling.

This is one of the sources provided reviewed extensively, so sorry, I don’t buy what a bunch of Zionist, Israeli intelligence websites provided by a certain poster on this board claim. The sources say more about themselves and about the integrity of some posters here more than what they contain.


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 05 August 2004 08:04 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Slim:

I acknowledged that having an agenda doesn't automatically discredit everything they say. But getting one thing, or even several things, right doesn't alter the fact that the site is partisan. That means every claim should be carefully examined. And it means there may be very careful selection of what to report and what to omit.


Slim, please repeat your post when someone quotes Al Jazeera.

liminal, your response was weak and a poor attempt at deflection. I expected a better comeback than that. Show me proof that the Jewish characters were not removed from Independence Day. Prove that the blood libel (We need the blood of a Christian child before Passover for Matzahs) did not run on TV in Lebanon. Don't give me petty arguments that there were 14,000 Jews not 20,000 and that the Jews that were there were there but not really citizens but they were there anyway or that a word was spelling incorrectly on a web site.

Then we can talk about why the remaining Jews are afraid of practicing their Judaism in a country that has leaders that spout crap like this:

quote:
“What do the Jews want? They want security and money. Throughout history the Jews have been Allah's most cowardly and greedy creatures. If you search the entire face of the earth you will not find anyone more miserly than the Jews or more greedy than they” (Al-Manar, September 28, 2001).


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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Babbler # 2440

posted 05 August 2004 08:53 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Khadiija:
Slim, please repeat your post when someone quotes Al Jazeera.

How do you know I haven't?


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 06 August 2004 08:37 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wise move, Khadi: back to not linking your quotes. I can't blame you, really.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
liminal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5617

posted 06 August 2004 08:53 AM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
Wow. I am accused of deflecting the thread by a certain poster that mastered the art of deflection ever since she joined Babble. How droll (rhymes with… !

Deflecting is when someone talks about “butchered sisters” in Lebanon, then changes the topic when the claim crumbles, ironically, belied by the source from which this someone deduced her information

Deflecting is talking about the PA in a thread about Lebanon, when a valid question is asked by many including aRoused and myself about the concern for the atrophy of 150,000 human lives, when a poster wants to isolate 11 victims from the rest, and accuse others of indifference

Deflecting is when someone replies to a thread about Israeli jets violating Lebanese airspace by asking about Syrian hegemony in Lebanon, instead of at least attempting to debate the issue of those violations (even in defense)

Deflecting is accusing other people of deflecting, when in fact, those people are scrutinizing one of the sources provided by certain accusers to buttress some of their accusations, on this particular thread. Of the 1,206 word-review of this source, they only read the first sentence, and want to drag me to the sophistry of 20,000 or 6,000, using it as a smokescreen (and doing a poor job at it, may I add). Am I deflecting when I want to verify the credibility of the sources from which a debate arises, before I indulge in this debate? I mean, if the sources are sketchy, and their credibility is elusive, then so are the claims, and I don’t have time to waste debating fairytales. Someone has asked me to prove that Jewish characters were not moved from Independence Day, and that Blood Libel was not run on a Lebanese television station? Those posters would only have the right to such demand, when they can prove that Jewish characters WERE removed from Independence Day, and that Blood Libel WAS depicted in a show on Lebanese TV. Until they can find credible sources, not an assortment of websites that fabricate Zionist propaganda (like a website run by Israeli intelligence, or the website of which I had the honor to review one article. Sure, I tend to believe automatically when such websites show stills from a television show in Arabic, then provide me with their translation), they shouldn’t ask people to prove anything


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 06 August 2004 11:05 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
liminal, stop derailing the thread again.

quote:
What I am saying is that anti-Judaism, as much as anti-Chritianity, as much as anti-Islam, is NOT institutionalized, nor tolerated by the state, which recognizes 17 official sects.

It has been proven many times on this thread. I even included pictures in case someone did not understand the text. You attacked the source, al'qabong discarded a source becuase of a typo but you have not been able to prove it is not true.

Try again liminal.


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 06 August 2004 12:33 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That passage contained far greater faults than a typo, but since you're following the well-worn manual, go ahead and harp on minor details and ignore the substance of the thread.

Are you Mishei's sister? This is exactly what he used to do.

Thread derailing indeed.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 06 August 2004 02:04 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think this thread has outlived its usefulness.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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