babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Effects of the barrier

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Effects of the barrier
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 12 July 2004 08:55 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
(with figures from B'Tselem)

Palestinian deaths since April: 170
Palestinians killed during present Intifada: 2649.
Months of Intifada: 45 (not including Sept.29-30, 2000, or July 2004 as a 'month').

Overall deaths per month: 58.867
Deaths since April: 56.667 (NB: June was the second-lowest casualty month, at 5, May was the third-highest casualty month, at 112)

Israelis (including IDF) killed in the OT since April: 21
Since September 2000: 404 (50% IDF personnel)
Overall deaths per month: 8.978
Since April: 7

Israelis (including security) killed 'within the Green Line' since April: 1
Since 9/2000: 489
Overall deaths per month: 10.867
Since April: 0.333
-----------------------------------
It would appear that the wall is working, but only to protect people within the Green Line. If you'll cast your minds back, you'll remember the claims that the wall would protect the Palestinians as well (from what?). Well, it ain't working, folks. In fact, given the volatility of Palestinian casualties, a different sampling of three months could easily have produce far higher casualty figures, suggesting the construction of the wall has actually killed people.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rand McNally
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5297

posted 12 July 2004 09:46 AM      Profile for Rand McNally     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
aRoused, I am interested on why you use numbers for those Israel’s killed in the OT only, to gage the success of the wall. The wall is suppose to stop attacks in Israel Proper as well. Doing a quick search I found numbers for 2002 & 2003.

“In 2003, 3,838 terrorist attacks were perpetrated against Israeli targets, in which 213 Israelis (50 members of the security forces and 163 civilians) were murdered. In 2002, 5,301 terrorist attacks were perpetrated against Israeli targets, in which 451 Israeli soldiers and civilians were murdered. Thus, there was an approximately 30% drop in the number of attacks and a drop of over 50% in the number of fatalities over the previous year”.

From http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/2003terror.html

Looking at numbers including attacks in Israel; it would appear even from the incomplete data that the numbers of Israel’s killed would be higher, and the % of IDF killed would be lower. However, the numbers still seem to show more Palestinian deaths, than Israeli.

I think that the attack this weekend was the first martyrdom operation carried out in Israel since March. That may show the wall is working.

I promised my wife that I would not engage in arguments online over Israeli/ Palestinian conflict. So I would like to point out that this post does not constitute an argument. I am simply providing more data to others who may wish to engage in discussion. I am not taking a position on the conflict, or the wall; I am just trying to correct what appears to be a flaw in the data.


From: Manitoba | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 12 July 2004 10:08 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I got the impression that when B'Tselem says 'within the Green Line', they may actually mean 'within Israel proper'. It was somewhat confusing, since the OT, by definition, are within the Green Line, or rather, the Green Line defines the OT (until Sharon gets his wall up, but that's another thread).

edited to add, briefly: It wasn't a martyrdom operation, it was a roadside bomb.

[ 12 July 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rand McNally
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5297

posted 12 July 2004 10:40 AM      Profile for Rand McNally     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My mistake, I saw an early report that said was a possible suicide bombing, I did not check back on the story. I had assumed the details had not changed. Well you know what they say about assume, it makes an ass out of u and me.

About the numbers, it is hard to get good data out of the conflict, because people skew the data to reflect their own perceptions. It would be nice to have a good independent source of data. Anyone know of any good unbiased sources?


From: Manitoba | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 12 July 2004 11:14 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Anyone know of any good unbiased sources?

Try Al-Hayat Al-Jadeeda


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 12 July 2004 11:40 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Regarding good data, most sources will admit that far more Palestinians have died or been injured than Israelis, no matter what their political affiliation. Personally, I'd trust B'Tselem--they certainly don't have any political motive for, say, inflating or glossing over Israeli casualties, as they're an Israeli human-rights group. If you go to their site, they also note what casualties they're including or excluding in each summary figure, for example they exclude Palestinians dying of injuries received because their ambulance got delayed at a checkpoint.

Speaking of figures, I don't think any of the usual apologist suspects has ever taken up Courage's (was it Courage's?) figures suggesting that Israeli casualties within Israel proper are at their lowest when the IDF is not actively targeting terrorism suspects.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca