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Author Topic: The Future
Macabee
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posted 09 July 2004 02:06 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
His and others' vision of Zion ignored the Palestinians, while the Palestinians in turn ignored the need to compromise to enable peaceful coexistence. On the 100th anniversary of Herzl's death, we should indeed admire him for his vision. But we must also not be afraid to state that 21st century Zionism will not survive if the new interpretation of the "Jewish state" is an apartheid state that rules over the Palestinians against their will. We must remember that the suffering of the Palestinians who live under Israeli occupation is as desperate as was that of the Jews of Europe in the late 19th century, when Herzl sought a solution for their distress.

The future of the Jewish state is linked to the future of the Palestinian nation that lives alongside and within it, and the logical and ethical solution for that cannot be found in a vision, but by bringing about a change in reality.


Ha'aretz

Ha'aretz

Let's hope and pray


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 09 July 2004 02:37 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Like many of the intelligentsia of his time, Herzl was a colonialist at heart, a missionary of European progress, and he thought Jewish settlement in the Middle East, like British settlement in Africa, could only be to the advantage of the natives, advancing them toward enlightenment.

It is so profoundly sad, isn't it? Herzl's dream of a country "like all the other countries" came true just as progressive thinkers everywhere began to realize that the make-up of "all the other countries" had to be challenged -- that the time of nation-states was (as it still is) coming to an end.

There is one reason only to pray for a two-state solution in the short term, and that is the reality on the ground established over the last sixty years. If there is one offensive statement in that editorial, it is the ahistorical claim that "the Palestinians in turn ignored the need to compromise to enable peaceful coexistence."

Such a need exists now, but what was done in Palestine over fifty years ago should, I believe, never be done again.

The age of the nation-state must end soon. Imperialism, colonialism, xenophobia -- if European history held out any genuine promise to humanity (and it has offered many poisons), it was the transcendence of its own essentialist crimes.

It is always a tragedy that any people should learn from Europe precisely the wrong, the murderous lessons. I think that we still have a chance to overcome that heritage, but at the moment, the USians above all are not helping. It would be good if Israelis would come to recognize that problem all on their own.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 July 2004 03:53 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A freind recently sent this to me. Its long but worth a read. I have been unable to check it all out so if there are some discrepancies I apologize.

In view of the future , looking at the past and present in terms of what Israel can offer the Middle East is I believe instructive:

quote:
Israel, the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's
population, can lay claim to the following:

The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli
branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by
Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel. Both the
Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely designed,
developed and produced in Israel.

The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in
Israel.

The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was developed in 1996 by
four young Israelis.


According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most
impenetrable flight security. U. S. officials now look to Israel for advice
on how to handle airborne security threats.

Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors
combined. Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers
per capita.

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the
world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a
large margin - 109 per 10,000 people --as well as one of the highest per
capita rates of patents filed.

In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup
companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of
startup companies than any other country in the world, except the U. S.
(3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).

With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the
highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world -- apart from the
Silicon Valley, U. S.

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the
U. S.

Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of
NASDAQ listed companies.

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per
capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.

On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups.

Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees --
ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and
Holland - and 12 per cent hold advanced degrees.

Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews at risk
in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel.

When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the
world's second elected female leader in modern times.

When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue
teams were on the scene within a day -- and saved three victims from the
rubble.

Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship -- and the highest
rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.

Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation
on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and
economic opportunity.

Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an
international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."

Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a
net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was
achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized,
no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper
administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical
treatment. Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment
mistakes.

Israel's Givun Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small
it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, the
camera helps doctors diagnose cancer and digestive disorders.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart
pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with
heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the heart's mechanical
operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the
workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in
Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed
in technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.

A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the ClearLight device, produces a
high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes
acne bacteria to self-destruct -- all without damaging surrounding skin or
tissue.

An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale
solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern
California's Mojave desert.

All the above with an economy continuously under strain by having to
spend more per capita on its own protection than any other country on earth.


[ 09 July 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 July 2004 04:02 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
God help us all.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 July 2004 04:13 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl Im unsure as to what you are saying here. Are you suggesting these are not accomplishments?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 July 2004 04:37 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course they are accomplishments, Macabee.

The Scots do this too. They write out long lists of how the Scots invented everything -- and the Scots undoubtedly have invented quite a lot.

However: in the face of the mass slaughter of a vulnerable people, that is not the point.

Sorry: I have to leave now. I can't possibly do justice to the perverse North American trivialization of the European Enlightenment -- and the lives of everyone who hasn't benefited from it -- in the next ten minutes. I shall try tomorrow.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 July 2004 05:30 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

However: in the face of the mass slaughter of a vulnerable people, that is not the point.


This is just not true. yes there have been casualties of war on both sides. Innocent people have been killed. But to suggest that Israelis DELIBERATELY mass slaughter innocent people is wrong and you know it. Im surprised that you would engage this rhetoric.

I wonder do you hold that suicide bombers engage in the mass slaughter of Israelis? This is indeed deliberate murder.

Look the bottom line is that innocent people are being killed on both sides of the Green line. It is bad enough withou deploying demonic language.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jack01
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posted 09 July 2004 05:58 PM      Profile for Jack01        Edit/Delete Post
Pick any metric.

Gross domestic product

Freedom

Literacy

Use Syria as an Example. Why is the GDP of an Israeli $18,000 plus when a Syrian is $3500+.

Isreal is a free country but Syria is not.

Freedom and Capatialism are tied at the hip. They enable each other.

One without the other and you only get so far.

Capitalism will free China eventually.

Cuba has a GDP per capita of $2800.

What one thing limits Freedom in the MiddleEast?

For Cuba it is Communism.

I wonder what causes the Middle East to produce practically knothing?


From: Windsor, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 09 July 2004 06:05 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Freedom and Capatialism are tied at the hip

Buddy, chosing some arbitrary countries to compare doesn't prove your argument. There are lots of random countries I could chose to "prove" the exact opposite, for instance Kuwait vs. India.


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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posted 09 July 2004 06:53 PM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
Intel chose to open its fab in Haifa. So do lots of companies. It's not like there are no good engineers, in, say, lebanon. Why don't you ask these companies why they wouldn't open branches in other countries in the ME? Now, an example is Dubai. Companies rush to open sales outlets in dubai, but they open their R&D branches in israel. Again, you have to ask them, not me, why so.
Do you know that in lebanon, we are forbidden from buying high-power microcontrollers? Some of my classmates needed those in their senior year projects, and they ended up with a mediocre project. If at college level there are difficulties, how is the industry expected to develop?
Or how about lasers. Most companies can't sell lasers to ME countries apart from israel, thus destroying any prospect of research in Optics.
Clean rooms, furnaces for integrated circuits, lithography equipment, anything to do with Nanofabrication... forbidden to be exported to ME countries apart from israel.
Shall we talk grants? grants are seemless between the USA and israel, DARPA, NSF, etc... we are talking MILLIONs of dollars for research groups. That's how science develops, through grants that fuel university research.
Grants don't come from the USA to lebanon, or other ME countries.

Science knows no boundary, no religion, and doesn't acknowledge politics. I know from my work how much israel is advanced in science, and, you know what, I'm always happy when science evolves. However, it makes me sad when I see that some countries are intentionally hampered from developing scientifically. More so when some people fail to see the checks and tabs on the scientific development of *some* countries, thus falsely attributing any scientific retardation to Islam.

[ 09 July 2004: Message edited by: mjollnir ]


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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posted 09 July 2004 06:57 PM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post

[ 09 July 2004: Message edited by: mjollnir ]


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
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Babbler # 5920

posted 09 July 2004 07:22 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
However: in the face of the mass slaughter of a vulnerable people...

You must be one of the last people in the world to believe there was a massacre in Jenin.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 09 July 2004 11:39 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Of course they are accomplishments, Macabee.

The Scots do this too. They write out long lists of how the Scots invented everything -- and the Scots undoubtedly have invented quite a lot.


We Canadians do the same thing.

E.g. Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone, etc.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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Babbler # 4600

posted 09 July 2004 11:44 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
My favourite letter to the editor in National Lampoon:

Sirs:

Imagine if his name had been Alexander Graham Airraidsiren.


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 10 July 2004 12:24 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by
Microsoft-Israel.

And they want to draw attention to thSTOP: 0x000000x00000077 KERNEL_STACK_INPAGE_ERROR The requested page of kernel data could not be read in. Caused by a bad block in paging file or disk controller error. If the error is a result of a paging error, upon system restart, AUTOCHK will attempt to map out the bad block. The second parameter identifies the cause of the error:

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 10 July 2004 12:28 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*giggles at both OCromwell and Wingnut*

"Would you pick up the Airraidsiren, sweetie?"

"I airraidsirened my friend today."

"Airraidsiren us now, at 1-800-FOR-WORK!"

Hmm. This has potential.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 10 July 2004 07:06 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought we agreed that 'demonic' only referred to Nazi imagery?

adding:

quote:
the "new Jew" - a modern, liberal, self-confident, secular fighter, free of the burden of his past - to be his heart's desire, and the solution for all the problems of the humiliated nation in the Diaspora.

Pity that hasn't come to pass, and we're still treated to 'made the desert bloom' and 'Israelis invented IT' arguments. And don't think that isn't a 'burden of the past', looking fondly and self-aggrandizingly back on past achievement while ignoring the strife and humiliation that permitted them to take place. Just like the West and the Industrial Revolution, glossing the mass slaughter of innocent victims: the children in the mines, the farmers dispossessed of lands, the broken men and women in the gutters and alleys of burgeoning cities...

Oh, sorry, there I go with 'demonic language and imagery' again.

[ 10 July 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 10 July 2004 10:27 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:

You must be one of the last people in the world to believe there was a massacre in Jenin.


Huh?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 10 July 2004 10:31 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Huh?



When you wrongly claim that Israel participates in "mass slaughter" of innocent people you leave yourself wide open.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
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posted 10 July 2004 11:22 AM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
Can we go back to making airraidsiren jokes again?
From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 July 2004 11:37 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Be my guest, Oliver. Last night I finished reading the recent New Yorker article (issue of 31 May) on the settlers (I couldn't read more than one section at a time, and it is very long). I've decided that I can't trust myself to speak any longer to apologists; it's just too upsetting, and probably too dangerous.

So I'm gone from this discussion. Peace, all.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 10 July 2004 12:34 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
When you wrongly claim that Israel participates in "mass slaughter" of innocent people you leave yourself wide open.

I guess it's only a mass slaughter if you do it in a short time frame instead of doing it through a five or ten year period.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 10 July 2004 01:17 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So Doc is it your claim that Israel purposely rounds up innocent Palestinians and "slaughters" them? Is it your position that there is a policy within Israel to "slaughter" Palestinians?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
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posted 10 July 2004 01:36 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
So Doc is it your claim that Israel purposely rounds up innocent Palestinians and "slaughters" them? Is it your position that there is a policy within Israel to "slaughter" Palestinians?

"[Palestinians] are like a cancer. There are all sorts of solutions to cancerous manifestations. For the time being, I am applying chemotherapy."

- Moshe Ya'alon, Israeli Chief-of-State, 20002

"Eventually we will have to thin out the number of Palestinians living in the territories."

- Eitan Ben Eliahu, former Israeli Air Force Commander, 2002


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 10 July 2004 01:49 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Baldfresh:

"[Palestinians] are like a cancer. There are all sorts of solutions to cancerous manifestations. For the time being, I am applying chemotherapy."

- Moshe Ya'alon, Israeli Chief-of-State, 20002

"Eventually we will have to thin out the number of Palestinians living in the territories."

- Eitan Ben Eliahu, former Israeli Air Force Commander, 2002


Are Dr. Conway and baldfresh one and the same?

And if this is your answer for Doc it is no answer at all. Yes these statements are harsh but what do they mean? In what context were they said? Where were they said. Ya'alon's generalizations (if this is a proper translation from the Hebrew...I note for example that "Palestinians" is in square brakstes> Could he have been referring to terrorists?) is inapprpriate bordering on racist if indeed he said it. I remain doubtful.

All this said are you suggesting that Israel has a deliberate policy to "slaughter" innocent Palestinians?

[ 10 July 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 10 July 2004 01:58 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And if this is your answer for Doc it is no answer at all.

No, no...I was supposed to answer for Doc. It's just taking me a little longer to resign myself to answering "yes" or "no" to a baiting, leading question. Wait for it, it'll come.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 10 July 2004 02:07 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
I have been unable to check it all out ...

You might want to look into that.

quote:
Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by
Microsoft-Israel.

Much of what became the first version of NT was developed jointly by IBM and MS when they were collaborating on OS/2. When the two companies had a falling out, MS renamed the project as Windows NT and hired Dave Cutler away from Digital to complete the project. Cutler built a team around 20 other former Digital employees in Seattle to complete the first version.

quote:
Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in
Israel.

From USAToday:

quote:
Microsoft Research has grown from its 1991 founding as a small division into an entity that now employs about 700 researchers on five campuses: Redmond, San Francisco, Mountain View, Calif., Cambridge, England, and Beijing.

As for Cisco, they have R & D facilities in Canada and India, at least. I say at least since I'm not going to bother looking for any more.

If it took me just a few minutes to debunk two of these claims, I'd suggest your list needs some cites to back it up.

[ 10 July 2004: Message edited by: Slim ]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
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posted 10 July 2004 02:19 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
[QB]Are Dr. Conway and baldfresh one and the same?

Nope; it just so happens that a lot of people are asking some serious questions about this situation, and not at all coming up with the answers you are.

quote:

And if this is your answer for Doc it is no answer at all. Yes these statements are harsh but what do they mean? In what context were they said? Where were they said. Ya'alon's generalizations (if this is a proper translation from the Hebrew...I note for example that "Palestinians" is in square brakstes> Could he have been referring to terrorists?) is inapprpriate bordering on racist if indeed he said it. I remain doubtful.

I pulled the quotes from adbusters. It could have meant "terrorists" instead of Palestinians, I agree. Does that make it any better? Not at all. As to the 2nd quote . . . that one seems pretty clear to me.

quote:

All this said are you suggesting that Israel has a deliberate policy to "slaughter" innocent Palestinians?

Given the high profile of the two individuals in question, I'd say its more a case of "we really don't care what happens to them, we just want them gone" refering perhaps to terrorists in the first case, and the Palestinians living in the occupided regions in the second. And that the means to do this will be any that the world will let them get away with. That if innocent civilians die to kill some terrorists, so be it.


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 10 July 2004 04:00 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I pulled the quotes from adbusters. It could have meant "terrorists" instead of Palestinians, I agree. Does that make it any better? Not at all. As to the 2nd quote . . . that one seems pretty clear to me.


You dont mean that same adbusters that many Babblers agreed engaged in antisemitism not all that long ago do you?

Babble: adbusters goes on an anti-Semitic whitchhunt

And um YES, it does make a difference if he is referring to terrorists. It in fact is totally diffent than what you tried to suggest.

As for the other quote, yes its bad but now that you may have messed the first one up Im really skeptical about the second as well.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
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posted 10 July 2004 05:46 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
You dont mean that same adbusters that many Babblers agreed engaged in antisemitism not all that long ago do you?
Babble: adbusters goes on an anti-Semitic whitchhunt

I most certainly do, and I wish I had been here to comment on the debate. Anyone who follows the magazine will note that Lasn has devoted several pages a month in each issue since to the ongoing furor his list caused, with opinions from both (actually, many) sides on the issue.

Aside from that, does anyone know for certain, then, that this widely syndicated magazine has knowingly published false information as to the situation in the mid-east? That the quotes given were simply "made up"? Adbusters anti-semitism, or lackof, has no bearing on if the facts I've read or the quotes used were real or not. They are either true, or false.

quote:

And um YES, it does make a difference if he is referring to terrorists. It in fact is totally diffent than what you tried to suggest.

The thing we're wondering about here is simple: Does Israel have a policy that includes the killing of innocent civilians, either as a central part of the policy or as an "unintentional" side effect of a policy - but with knowledge that it is likely to happen, indeed has happened hundreds of times already, if not each and every time said policy is enacted. The answer is a simple "Yes". Israel has a policy of targeted assassinations, one which has resulted numerous times in not only (or sometimes even) the initial target being killed, but also men, women, and children in no way related to or associated with the target.

The official line may not be "kill terrorists and anyone who gets in the way", but that is quite simply what is being enacted. Indeed, for some reason people in the world seem to be even more accepting of this "ends-justify-means" bullshit since the States bombed Afghanastan and then invaded Iraq. Both Israel and Russia can feel somewhat less "dirty" at night in their respect "wars on terror", knowing that if the superpower of this world can do it, then it must be ok.

And we're really only talking about something thats pretty clearcut here: they try and kill suspected (or proven) terrorists, and almost as many civilians have died in the process. The resultant effects of other Israeli policies we'll have to put off for the moment, if we can't even agree upon facts we see reported across pretty much all forms of media, cases that at least I know I've seen on television myself. I suppose the CBC could be anti-semetic neo-nazi's and have faked the reports I've watched, ones where Israel has tried to kill high ranking terrorists, failed, but did manage to kill innocent lives in the process.


quote:

As for the other quote, yes its bad but now that you may have messed the first one up Im really skeptical about the second as well.

I didn't mess it up, I actually quoted the mag itself, which I suppose I should have noted. I'm not an expert on copyright law, but I couldn't find a soure listed for the quote in the mag, leading me to believe it was a public piece of information.


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 10 July 2004 06:03 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

As for the other quote, yes its bad but now that you may have messed the first one up Im really skeptical about the second as well.

Allow me to be of assistance.

quote:
... Eitan Ben Eliahu, the former air force commander, stated that "eventually we will have to thin out the number of Palestinians living in the territories."

From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5864

posted 10 July 2004 06:23 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks Slim. I had actually hoped, Macabee, that it was "terrorists" moreso than "Palestinians" he meant. Sadly, the addition of "and suggested that a more radical treatment could be necessary" has cast serious doubt on that - but I will note that Adbusters failed to mention that additional piece of info. Perhaps the Japan Times is even more anti-semetic?

Oh, and when the prime minister agrees with him . . .

Anyway. Its good to know Israelis are still active in trying to change their country and hopefully resolve the problems in a more peaceful matter. They can do a lot better than those in charge at the moment, thats for sure.

[ 10 July 2004: Message edited by: Baldfresh ]


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 10 July 2004 11:27 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Are Dr. Conway and baldfresh one and the same?

I just fell out of my chair roaring with laughter at this ludicrous statement.

You have been accused of sock-puppeting by other people on this messageboard, and while I have no statement to make on that subject, I find it a bit silly that your only response to racist comments made by Israeli officials is to attempt to accuse me of sock-puppetry.

My god man, can you ever engage in a substantive discussion without throwing around crap like this?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 11 July 2004 12:19 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
Slim,

Thanks for your "assistance."

So the quotes come from an article titled...

UNDER COVER OF WAR IN IRAQ
Israeli 'transfer' of Palestinians feared

There were a rash of articles like this about what the evil Israelis might get up to while the world's attention was on Iraq.

And the fear turned out to be totally bogus - just another excuse for some anti-Israel articles.

You have all noticed that it didn't happen...?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5864

posted 11 July 2004 01:01 AM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MyName:
You have all noticed that it didn't happen...?

Have you noticed that there's still a lot of concern over what's going on? That any news report you could have listened to tonite had as one of its top stories the recent ruling on the 1.5 billion dollar "wall" Israel is continuing to build?


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 11 July 2004 01:13 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MyName:
Slim,

Thanks for your "assistance."


You're quite welcome.

quote:

So the quotes come from an article titled...

UNDER COVER OF WAR IN IRAQ
Israeli 'transfer' of Palestinians feared


Why yes, I guess it does.

quote:

There were a rash of articles like this about what the evil Israelis might get up to while the world's attention was on Iraq.

And the fear turned out to be totally bogus - just another excuse for some anti-Israel articles.

You have all noticed that it didn't happen...?


What was at issue was the veracity of the quote Baldfresh had supplied. I found evidence of its accuracy and posted it. Unless you have some other evidence that the quote was, in fact, wrong I fail to see the relevance of the rest of your post.

Is there anything else I can "assist" you with?


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 11 July 2004 02:12 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MyName:

You have all noticed that it didn't happen...?

Actually, I have noticed no such thing. Let's see, since the war in Iraq the wall keeps being expanded and directed to encircle more Palestinian populations and uproot more groves, the spiritual leader of Hamas was assassinated along with various other top figures, the general death toll from semi-random sniping and whatnot continues to increase, a rabbi has been used as a human shield, as well as various Palestinian children, missile attacks and tank fire have been used to quell peaceful demonstrations, for all the talk of withdrawal from the Gaza strip in fact military operations in Gaza against nothing in particular have been stepped up, killing many civilians and levelling blocks and blocks of what real buildings are left there. On the political side, Sharon has unilaterally abandoned all pretense of negotiation or adherence to any kind of peace plan, "road map" et cetera.

And the outcry has been muted, because everyone's paying attention mainly to Iraq. You have probably "noticed that it didn't happen" in the sense that you didn't notice a lot of headlines. That was sort of the point--people were expecting a stepping up of the level and significance of violence and ghettoization. This has happened. And people were expecting that it wouldn't make the news due to Iraq stories trumping Israel stories. This has also happened.

So yeah, I'd say the "it" that was predicted has happened. About all that can be said is that large-scale high-speed overt ethnic cleansing is not under way. Hardly necessary, really, given that large-scale slow-speed covert ethnic cleansing is being at least fairly successful.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 11 July 2004 04:26 AM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
large-scale high-speed overt ethnic cleansing is not under way. Hardly necessary, really, given that large-scale slow-speed covert ethnic cleansing is being at least fairly successful.

Good point but I will rephrase it without the fantasy. "Large-scale high-speed overt ethnic cleansing" of Israelis by Palestinian suicide bombers was made more difficult by the fence. It looks like they have opted for "slow-speed covert ethnic cleansing" of Israelis instead.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 11 July 2004 06:32 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Given the relative strengths of the two sides involved, it's pretty clear who's going to be "cleansed" if push comes to shove, and it ain't the Israelis. The world 4th-largest military power, remember?

You might want to shed your own fantasies, bud. Starting with the one that portrays this conflict as if it were between two equals. It ain't. One party has its boot on the necks of the other.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 11 July 2004 07:17 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It looks like they have opted for "slow-speed covert ethnic cleansing" of Israelis instead.

Which is taking the form of....what, exactly?


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5864

posted 11 July 2004 02:39 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
Good point but I will rephrase it without the fantasy. "Large-scale high-speed overt ethnic cleansing" of Israelis by Palestinian suicide bombers was made more difficult by the fence. It looks like they have opted for "slow-speed covert ethnic cleansing" of Israelis instead.

Wow.

Nope.

Troll?

I will give you one thing: I don't think there has been a suicide bomber from the Gaza strip as of late. Grind em' down enough, I suppose, and the millions not involved be damned.


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 11 July 2004 05:15 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Baldfresh posted 11 July 2004 02:39 PM                      

quote:
I don't think there has been a suicide bomber from the Gaza strip as of late.

Hey, we are getting somewhere now. The Zionist Entity's fence actually is working and doing what it is supposed to do, stop Palestinians terrorists from killing Israelis. Maybe if it were finished earlier 19 year old Maayan Na'im would not have been murdered by Palestinians "militants" this morning. Well, if you read what Arafat claimed, it was actually the Israelis that planted the bomb "in an attempt to scuttle the international court of Justice at the Hague's ruling..." I think Yasser is loosing it.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 11 July 2004 05:27 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
[QB]Baldfresh posted 11 July 2004 02:39 PM

Hey, we are getting somewhere now. The Zionist Entity's fence actually is working and doing what it is supposed to do, stop Palestinians terrorists from killing Israelis.


Wow! You mean that Israel has successfully created a concentration camp? What will Israel think of next? This great innovation will likely spread all across the globe - soon all kinds of people will be behind fences and bars and all crammed in on top of one another. That should solve every political problem, I bet. Just fence-in anyone who poses a problem to your comfortable oppression and then you can sit back and relax with a glass of lemonade on the veranda....

I'll bet that others will want to try this, too...

[ 11 July 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 11 July 2004 05:37 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One party has its boot on the necks of the other.

And maybe the Palestinians will decide to remove their boots from the necks of the Israelis and sit down at the peace table. It was "No Sir, Yasser" who walked away from the negotiating table without even a counter offer. So, when they decide to use negotiations instead of the suicide bombers and sit down with the Zionist Entity they will have lost Barak's offer, lost Jerusalem as a capital and the most important, lost precious lives in a useless Intifadah.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 11 July 2004 05:55 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You mean that Israel has successfully created a concentration camp?

Brilliant Courage, just brilliant. You forgot to mention your other brilliant claim that JNF buys tanks for Israel. Remember, the ones with the large sign onthe side saying "this tank (complete with pine air freshener hanging from the rear view mirror) was donated by JNF Canada".


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5864

posted 11 July 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
Hey, we are getting somewhere now.

Hey, you're great at ignoring what I really wrote an picking out the (few, sarcastic in original intent) bits that fit in your own biased view of the situation.

quote:
Me, but you ignored this bit:
Grind em' down enough, I suppose, and the millions not involved be damned.

So yeah, a troll. Or right wing neocon, or over-zealous, fanatical zionist with too much time on his hands, or a Macabee alter ego, or . . .

who cares.

*plonk*


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 11 July 2004 06:39 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And maybe the Palestinians will decide to remove their boots from the necks of the Israelis

Wow. This might qualify as the most insane statement ever made on this forum about the I/P conflict. Congrats, Starbuck.

I see once again you're embracing that strange alternate reality where the Taba negotiations never existed.

BTW, before I *PLONK* you, WTF is a "Zionist Entity"?

*PLONK*


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 11 July 2004 07:49 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
And maybe the Palestinians will decide to remove their boots from the necks of the Israelis and sit down at the peace table.

Please, slay me laughing. Israel has such a huge conventional and nuclear military advantage over the Palestinian-Arabs that any time Sharon gets a little too barmy, the IDF can go in and thump all the Palestinians and not feel a twitch at all.

Boot to the Israeli neck? As if.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 11 July 2004 08:38 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wow. This might qualify as the most insane statement ever made on this forum about the I/P conflict.

Beluga2, I would nominate your insane statement made last week "Free speech rules. Especially when it results in Reformatories blurting out stupid bigoted shit and torpedoeing their election chances."

*PLONK*


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 11 July 2004 10:44 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:

"About all that can be said is that large-scale high-speed overt ethnic cleansing is not under way."

Good. So we agree entirely. You agree with my point that the propaganda about Israel using the Iraq war as cover for chasing the Palestinians out of the territories is stale-dated. Never had any validity to begin with and has been proven wrong by events.

You also write: "large-scale slow-speed covert ethnic cleansing is being at least fairly successful.


In so far as this statement has any meaning, I'm guessing you mean that people are dying in this war. Yes. I'm glad you've figured that out.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 11 July 2004 11:32 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
[QB]

Brilliant Courage, just brilliant. You forgot to mention your other brilliant claim that JNF buys tanks for Israel.


No strawman is safe from Starbuck. Can you please avail yourself of the forum's "search" function and prove this allegation. It should be easy enough, after all.

In note that you haven't tried to address my claim and to show a substantive difference between the Gaza Strip and a concentration camp.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 12 July 2004 12:20 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Courage posted 11 July 2004 11:32 PM                   
No strawman is safe from Starbuck. Can you please avail yourself of the forum's "search" function and prove this allegation. It should be easy enough, after all.

Courage, does your computer not allow you to go back to the words that came off your keyboard on June 9/04 at 3:27 PM? Or maybe they were faked by someone else using the name Courage? Do you have a dog or cat that has access to your Babble account?

Originally posted by Starbuck:
JNF Canada does not send money across the green line.

Your brilliant response was:

I guess those tanks paid for themselves....

I will ignore any future requests to prove past statements which you conveniently forget you made. In the future please use the "search" function yourself or keep better track of the ridiculous claims you make.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 July 2004 05:18 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:

Courage, does your computer not allow you to go back to the words that came off your keyboard on June 9/04 at 3:27 PM? Or maybe they were faked by someone else using the name Courage? Do you have a dog or cat that has access to your Babble account?

Originally posted by Starbuck:
JNF Canada does not send money across the green line.

Your brilliant response was:

I guess those tanks paid for themselves....

I will ignore any future requests to prove past statements which you conveniently forget you made. In the future please use the "search" function yourself or keep better track of the ridiculous claims you make.


Nice hatchet job. You forgot to add this point on the matter of the IDF's budget which came off my keyboard at 7:27PM on the same day:

quote:
Which (The IDF's budget) can be the size it is because of massive gifts to the government coffers from the JNF that cover the expense of other civil spending....

It's like saying, "Sure I lent money to Sammy Knuckles, but it was for his house, and certainly isn't going directly to his extortion activities, so you can't really say that I support Sammy Knuckles bonebreaking..."


In addition, on another thread where you introduced this strawman, I responded:

quote:
See, it's simple: say I only have ten geldings and I need to feed and clothe myself. Moreover, I want to buy a big knife to kill people with. Clothing is 9 geldings and a knife is 4. I clearly have a problem. But if some nice benefactor comes along and buys my food and clothing. Well, then, now I have enough geldings for two knifes, and some left over. So the benefactor doesn't buy the knife - directly - but their gesture (and they know I'm gonna buy the knife, don't kid yourself) helps me to arm myself.

Your brilliant response was:

quote:
Your agruments are so sophomoric they don't deserve a reply.

Then you - despite the fact that my argument wasn't worth a response - responded noting the indirect funding of 'terrorism' and how this was a problem, but couldn't see that the logic of your own argument about indirect funding to terrorism was easily applicable to the JNF and IDF.

This 'sophmoric response' was quickly debunked for all to see, here: http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000938 Moreover, you then made a "sophmoric" ad hominem argument about me being a 1st or 2nd year student, and made the implicit claim that you are a professor. A couple more strawmen, a few other fallacies, and you were off to the races, Doc....

I guess they don't teach logic skills or research skills to "professors" any more. I guess I just can't rely on you to put in the extra effort when I ask you to do something. As such, your idea that you should ignore my requests to do research in the future is satisfactory.

You really do have to do things yourself if you want them done right, eh professor?

Edited to fix URL....

[ 13 July 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]

[ 13 July 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 July 2004 07:00 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Still no word on Gaza being remarkably similar to a concentration camp...

Keep waving those hands, Professor.

Or maybe you'll just invoke another ad hominem fallacy...

[ 12 July 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 12 July 2004 07:33 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
You make me laugh.

quote:
I guess those tanks paid for themselves....

I'm still waiting for courage to prove that JNF buys tanks for the IDF.

Yes, you tried to weasel out of your brilliant posting about the tanks but your argument is faulty. You have still not proven that JNF Canada buys tanks for the IDF.

When you saw that mean 19 year old Israeli soldier was he driving one of those tanks? Is your discovery first hand? I'm sure I have seen them though, the ones with the "donated by JNF Canada" sign on the side. I wonder if DFAIT knows about this?

Hey, perhaps Bill Graham should look in to Courage's fantasy discovery? If JNF Canada is buying tanks for the west bank it is contrary to Canada's foreign policy. I guess the beancounters in Ottawa don't read Courage's posts otherwise they would have shut down the tank donation machine a long time ago.

Israel Cancer Society does not buy F-16s for Israel.

Yad Vashem Canada does not buy patrol boats for Israel.

JNF CANADA DOES NOT BUY TANKS FOR ISRAEL.

Don't waste any more bandwidth or hot air on this issue.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 12 July 2004 07:41 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is money not money? Who can tell whether it goes across the Green Line or not?

I never understand this argument.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 July 2004 07:57 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
[QB]You make me laugh.

I'm still waiting for courage to prove that JNF buys tanks for the IDF.


Right on schedule with the ad hominem fallacy. It goes like this: I assert that the Gaza Strip is a concentration camp. You assert that this can't be true because I also claimed that the JNF buys tanks. Beyond the second accusation being false, it is also nothing more than an attack on my character, and not the argument at hand.

Why should I prove an assertion I didn't make?

quote:
Yes, you tried to weasel out of your brilliant posting about the tanks but your argument is faulty. You have still not proven that JNF Canada buys tanks for the IDF.

You're right. That's because I didn't say they did. I have shown (with no real rebuttal from you) that the relationship between the JNF and the IDF falls into the same catagory as the relationship between Hamas and some of the charitable organisations that donate money to Hamas.

Is there a substantive difference? Where is the moral distinction? Your red herring about DFAIT doesn't make your case. Not only is the question of DFAIT approval irrelevent, but it's an appeal to authority. Heaven forbid we imply that DFAIT might have inconsistent (re: hypocritical) policy. Heavens, no!

Keep piling up those illogical arguments, professor, you're doing me favours.

Similarily, you could help with the preservation of bandwidth by dealing substantively with the issue of the Gaza Strip and its resemblence to a concentration camp.

Let's start again:

The Gaza Strip resembles a concentration camp.

Now, professor, what you are supposed to do is to prove that this is false. You can do that, right?

[ 12 July 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 12 July 2004 08:21 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would also like to add that the 'pragmatic' argument invoked in favour of the Wall - and for continuing to keep the Gaza Strip like a concentration camp - doesn't actually address the primary arguments made against the wall, which are largely moral and political.

The question of the effectiveness of the policy is really unimportant in light of the moral problem. Afterall, Japanese Internment Camps in Canada were highly successful in protecting Canada from the infiltration of Japanese loyalists and possible sabotage by these parties. Similarly, the concentration camps used by Spain in Cuba were highly sucessful in ensuring that the inmates were no longer able to fight against the Spanish. Moreover, Camp X-Ray at Guantanamo Bay is highly effective for keeping those that are incarcerated there from attacking the U.S. or targets anywhere else. However, none of this goes to the legal and moral question of whether or not these arrangements are a morally and politically acceptable solution.

[ 12 July 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 12 July 2004 10:44 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You can do that, right?

Right after you prove that JNF Canada buys tanks for the IDF. This is getting boring. When you have the evidence contact me in the mean time I will ignore your false claims.

I've been waiting for weeks for you to come up with the evidence. What, no evidence? Of course not because your claim is false.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 July 2004 10:48 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
Right after you prove that JNF Canada buys tanks for the IDF. This is getting boring.

He already said that he didn't claim that. Boring is right.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 12 July 2004 11:09 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
He already said that he didn't claim that.

Thanks Michelle, I can read too. Its just that he did make the claim.

quote:
Boring is right.

How do we know when Michelle is being an even handed moderator or a participant with her own personal opinions?


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 July 2004 11:13 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe you could quote where he made the claim.

Others don't seem to have a hard time knowing when I'm participating and when I'm moderating. If you have a problem with me, take it up with Audra.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 12 July 2004 11:24 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle,

It would be helpful when a moderator is taking sides that we know whether he/she is expressing their own personal opinion rather than a function of their volunteer duties babble. It think it is only fair that the person who holds the power on any given forum not use their position to further their personal opinion.

[ 13 July 2004: Message edited by: Starbuck ]


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4650

posted 13 July 2004 12:07 AM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
It think it is only fair that the person who holds the power on any given forum not use their position to further their personal opinion.

You mean her personal opinion agreeing with you that 'it' was boring?


From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 13 July 2004 12:29 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
Michelle,

It would be helpful...


It would be helpful if you remembered that you're a guest here like the rest of us and you don't get to set policy. Do you pay for this forum? No? Then you have no right to decide how anyone else participates. Don't like the way the place is run? The answer is obvious.

[ 13 July 2004: Message edited by: Slim ]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 13 July 2004 12:29 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
doppelpost.

[ 13 July 2004: Message edited by: Slim ]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 13 July 2004 01:08 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*UNPLONK*

quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
Michelle,

It would be helpful when a moderator is taking sides that we know whether he/she is expressing their own personal opinion rather than a function of their paid employment with babble.


Unless I'm severely mistaken, Michelle isn't paid. She volunteers her time to babble. So knock it off.

Now instead of squirting out irrelevant distractions like an incontinent cuttlefish, kindly respond to Courage's question about Gaza = concentration camp. Thank you.

*RE-PLONK*


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 July 2004 07:42 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not paid to moderate this forum or babble banter, just as skdadl and lagatta are not paid to moderate the out and about forum, meades is not paid to moderate the youth forum, rasmus is not paid to moderate the ideas forum, and robbie_dee is not paid to moderate the labour and consumption forum. And they all participate in those forums. The only times I've been paid to do moderating is when I have taken over the entire board while Audra has been gone on vacation.

In fact, even Audra participates in all the forums she moderates, and puts her personal opinions in them. I have been posting on babble for over three years, much longer than I have had moderating duties here. If there was a problem with me getting involved with debates in forums that I moderate, then Audra would never have given me moderating duties to begin with.

I think it's pretty clear that if I'm not giving someone a "warning" for inappropriate behaviour then I'm just joining the debate. I moderate the Middle East forum with a pretty light hand, considering the kind of baiting and sarcasm and namecalling that happens here.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 July 2004 06:44 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Gaza Strip greatly resembles a concentration camp.
From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 July 2004 07:32 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Interesting judgement that came down this week about the PA, PLO and terrorism.

The Jerusalem Post reported:

In what may be a landmark blow to global terror financing, a federal judge in the US ordered the Palestinian Authority and the Palestine Liberation Organization to pay $116m. to the family of a US citizen who was murdered in Israel eight years ago. "

The entire judgemnent can be found at: http://www.rid.uscourts.gov/opinions/lagueux/2004/published/07122004_1-00cv0105l_ungar_v_the_palestinian_authority_p.pdf

I'm sorry I was not able to hyperlink it, I'm wondering if the babble hyperlink works for lonhg urls.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 July 2004 07:43 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Deflection...

The Gaza Strip resembles a concentration camp.

[ 13 July 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 July 2004 08:46 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
I was not deflecting, I was ignoring you!

I won't respond to your ridiculous claims such as JNF Canada buying tanks for Israel or your latest fantasy.

I was just looking at the thread "Israel ordered to dismantle the wall" and thought how interesting the "kudos" that decision received by babblers but when a US court sides with victims of Palestinian terror.....silence.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 13 July 2004 10:25 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
I was just looking at the thread "Israel ordered to dismantle the wall" and thought how interesting the "kudos" that decision received by babblers but when a US court sides with victims of Palestinian terror.....silence.

That would be a United Nations court. Way to read!


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 July 2004 11:01 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
I can read just fine. I guess you missed the fact that the star studded cast of characters included Russia, Sierra Leone and your favourite and mine....China.

The judge in the case against the Palestinian terrorists said:

"Defendants‚ arguments are offensive at best, especially given this Court's adoption of Judge Martin's extensive recommendations relating to the damages owed by Defendant Hamas for the brutal murders that are the subject of this litigation."

"The PA and PLO, and not an impoverished and oppressed Palestinian people, are responsible for and must bear the ultimate burden of providing compensation, which this Court fully acknowledges will never return to Plaintiffs the relationships and lives that existed prior to June 9, 1996,"


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 July 2004 11:21 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You mean a federal judge of a state that has broken international law and begun an aggressive war against a United Nations member state on several occasions, holds jurisdiction over an illegal prison in Guantanamo Bay where it holds several non-U.S. citizens prisoner without charge or legal redress, and whose military had command and control of a facility where torture of Iraqi prisoners was commonplace.

Wow, what moral giants! Hop to it PA! There's no way that this judgement could have been politically motivated or flawed in any way...

The United States and Americans are pinnacles of morality...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 14 July 2004 01:58 AM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
If I ever had to stand before a judge I would take an American judge any day before one from China, Russia or Sierra Leone.
From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 14 July 2004 06:27 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In a case like that one, I wouldn't. You'd be nuts to.
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 14 July 2004 03:23 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Khadiija:
If I ever had to stand before a judge I would take an American judge any day before one from China, Russia or Sierra Leone.

Who knows? The point wasn't this at all - it was simply to show how you can throw shit at any particular state and a lot will probably stick. What throwing shit doesn't do is to go to the substance of a verdict, or the legal reasoning behind it.

For Professor Starbuck - who is fond of logical fallacies, it seems - it is acceptable to question the legitimacy of the ICJ decision on Israel's Wall without reference to the particular legal reasoning invoked to make the decision. On the contrary, allusions and innuendo to the supposed human rights records of the states where the judges are from are enough.

Considering that the result was 14-1, one would have to assume that the great antisemitic/human-rights-violator conspiracy is in play in Japan, Germany, Slovakia, Brazil, United Kingdom, France, Netherlands, and Venezuela. Apparently the judges from Russia, Sierra Leone, China, and so on were able to completely mesmerize these other judges into making a decision to suit their antisemitic/human-rights-hating agenda.

Interesting that even Buergenthal's Declaration (U.S.) makes a lot of passing nods to the principles behind the decision, but simply affirms that he believes that the Court didn't have enough facts at its disposal to render a decision.

[ 14 July 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged

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