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Author Topic: Israel's Supreme Court on Security Fence
Macabee
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posted 01 July 2004 02:56 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well my word, that "racist" state of Israel with it's "whimpy" Supreme Court upheld a complaint by Palestinian farmers that the present route of a part of the security barrier is illegal. How is this possible? Im sure some here will find a way to negate even this.

quote:
The ruling which, in a nod to the ICJ ruling, was also published in English began by determining that a fence built in the West Bank for security reasons is legal, though one built for political reasons would not be. However, it continued, even a security fence must balance security considerations against the needs of local residents, and this proportionality must be maintained even if it means choosing a route that provides less security.

While the army is the expert in security matters, the ruling continued, the question in this case is the balance between security needs and humanitarian considerations and that is a legal question, in which the courts are the experts.

"We are aware that in the short term, this judgment will not make the state's struggle against those rising up against it easier," the ruling concluded. "[But] there is no security without law ... Only a separation fence built on a base of law will grant security to the state and its citizens."


Ha'aretz


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 01 July 2004 03:19 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A far better ruling would have been to invalidate the entire security "fence" (Come on, Macabee. Stop making a farce out of this. IT'S A GODDAMN WALL! CONCRETE! PILLARS!) and force the government to tear it down, or even better, carve up all the poured concrete into blocks the Palestinians can use with mortar to build nice solid houses.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 01 July 2004 03:19 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well my word, that "racist" state of Israel with it's "whimpy" Supreme Court upheld a complaint by Palestinian farmers that the present route of a part of the security barrier is illegal. How is this possible? Im sure some here will find a way to negate even this.

I find this kind of baiting tone to be an insult to the concept of serious debate, especially on an issue as important as the Israel/Palestine conflict.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 01 July 2004 03:20 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I, for one, have never said Israel doesn't have laudable aspects of a democratic society. But that doesn't excuse its continued occupation and illegal settlement of someone else's land. Together with the human rights violations that goes with it. In fact, it can be argued that its democratic aspects make those violations even more reprehensible.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 01 July 2004 03:30 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
I find this kind of baiting tone to be an insult to the concept of serious debate, especially on an issue as important as the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Me too. I'm tempted to shut this thread down right now and tell you to try again, Mishei.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 01 July 2004 05:32 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And now there are rules against sarcasm on Babble!! I didnt realize that Miche.

[ 01 July 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 01 July 2004 05:36 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I consider this a good step, absolutely. I could be cynical and call it a pre-emption of the inevitable condemnation at the international level, but I won't. Mish, believe me when I tell you I will dance for joy at the prospect of an Israel that restrains itself to the Green Line.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 01 July 2004 05:45 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"We were playing soccer when Israeli tanks ... started firing inside the camp and towards us," said Bashir Abu Jlidan, 18, a resident of Rafah refugee camp in the southern Gaza Strip.

He said Omar Zara'an, 9, fell to the ground bleeding. Doctors at Rafah hospital pronounced the boy dead after trying to revive him on Thursday.



Reuters
I am sure he is thrilled with the court ruling.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 01 July 2004 05:52 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Only in a democracy such as Israel:

quote:
GUSH SHALOM - pob 3322, Tel-Aviv 61033 - www.gush-shalom.org/

International alert (protest letter data after [[]]) June 19, Tel-Aviv

Weekend at Sawiya on the West Bank: IDF razing olive trees in nightly operation of ground & air forces Villagers brutalized at improvised roadblock.

[Yesterday night and this morning there came frentic calls from our Palestinian contact in Sawiya Village (between Nablus and Ramallah). We recorded the following from I. (full name is known to us):]

"Friday the bulldozers came at noon and started working on our land, in the part close to the settlement of Rehelim [to the north of Sawiya - Ed]. We did not dare to go near, because there were soldiers guarding them all around. But also from a distance we saw that they were cutting down our olive trees and throwing them aside. We had gotten no notice or explanation; the owners of the land were not given any kind of confiscation order...

They went on during the evening and also in the night. After sundown, there were helicopters in the air firing flares to give them light.

In the morning on my way to work I passed the spot. There were no bulldozers or army, but you could clearly see where they had worked - from the destroyed trees. It did not look like they did it for the Wall, which is what we thought first. For the Wall, they clear long narrow strips of land. This was more of a square area, it looks like the setters want to place there new mobile homes. [Also from I. a related incident:]

A few kilometres south of us, at Luan A-Sharkiya, there was an army road- block. It is usually there, but never before did it take so long to get through it, we waited for hours and hours. I am every day going through there to work, I don't remember anything like it. Many of us tried to bypass the road-block and go through the tracks on the side, but the soldiers were waiting for us there, too.

With some soldiers you can reason, not with these. A soldier just hit me once in the face, a hard blow, and then let me pass without saying a word. Fortunately, he did not touch my car. Others before and after me got their windshields smashed, or wires ripped out of the engines, or tires cut with a knife. There was a different treatment to each one which they caught, without any logic or explanation."



Scoop

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 01 July 2004 08:37 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As I said with the exception of Thomas who appears realistic on this, Wingnut and others must deride any positive demonstration by Israel. They just have to. Can't dseem to help themselves. Almost fetishistic. And you wonder why I resort to sarcasm at times?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 01 July 2004 08:57 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Sarcasm directed at other Babblers with an intent to bait is a form of trolling. If your artlessly sarcastic comment had been in response to someone else's post, that would have been a different matter. But you started the thread and began your post with it. You want these discussions to be confrontational.

You'll reap what you sow.

[ 01 July 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 01 July 2004 09:36 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is also because sarcasm is all that he has left. One court decision does not even begin to redress the terrible harm committed against so many Palestinians in the name of things Israel claims so righteously for itself but so easily denies another people.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 01 July 2004 10:16 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Under Chief Justice Aaron Barak (no relation) many Palestinian grievances have been heard and upheld. But as far as Wingnut is concerned there is little or nothing good about Israel. Just so everyone fully understands where you come from wingnut.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 01 July 2004 11:40 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Under Chief Justice Aaron Barak (no relation) many Palestinian grievances have been heard and upheld.

You won't mind if I ask you to show us a few links, please.

Incidentally, I find it curious that you see nothing unusual about Palestinian-Arabs petitioning Israeli courts. Could it be that even you recognize that the Palestinian "Authority" is a joke for getting anything done because the Israeli Government broke it?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 02 July 2004 02:56 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...Wingnut and others must deride any positive demonstration by Israel.

This gesture is akin to lining 100 people up against the wall to shoot them, then letting three go...but still shooting the other 97.

It is still a positive gesture in the eyes of some, I suppose.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 02 July 2004 03:11 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's interesting how Israel enthusiasts love to have it both ways. If Israel is criticised for human rights violations then they defend Israel to the hilt against its critics. If the Supreme Court of Israel agrees human rights have been violated then, instead of admitting that Israel has done wrong they point to the Supreme Court as an example of how great Israel is.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 July 2004 05:34 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As I said with the exception of Thomas who appears realistic on this, Wingnut and others must deride any positive demonstration by Israel. They just have to. Can't dseem to help themselves. Almost fetishistic. And you wonder why I resort to sarcasm at times?

Well its kind of hard to believe anything that comes fromt he Israeli state, after all of these years oif fucking around. After all Dr Conway's point is cogent. What about the whole illegality of the wall in general?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 July 2004 08:01 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But as far as Wingnut is concerned there is little or nothing good about Israel. Just so everyone fully understands where you come from wingnut.

Based on what? A smear by you?

You are reduced to placing words in my mouth and thoughts in my head to defend a regime that murders children and engages in scorched earth policies?

Israel turns all of Gaza into an outdoor prison and you consider me the enemy?

They build walls to imprison all of the West Bank, save for Jewsih enclaves, and it is I who hate Israel?

Amazing.

You defend racist policies while offering platitudes to a two state solution. You hail a single court decision which does nothing to stop the humiliations, the checkpoints, the settlememt buildings, the deaths, the hunger, the seizing of lands and the scorching of earth but you accuse anyone who criticizes this as antisemitic.

You are one of them. You might as well stand with Likud basking in the shadow of Sharon's hate and butchery.

Just so everyone understands where you come from.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 July 2004 08:42 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingnut your answer above pretty well proves my earlier point. Thanks.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 July 2004 09:17 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you ever had a point I am sure you would express it.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 July 2004 10:35 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, how about letting people figure out for themselves "where WingNut is coming from"? That way you wouldn't be yet again instigating a flame war.

Thanks in advance.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 03 July 2004 08:48 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 03 July 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 07 July 2004 04:35 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That was a lovely and very accurate post Wingnut.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 08 July 2004 04:53 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
Maccabee,

The Supreme Court ruling was, of course, another demonstration of Israeli democracy in action.

More specifically, it demonstrated the Israeli court is held in high regard the world over.

The court ruled:

1) That the barrier is a legitimate security measure, not a political move.

2) Although the barrier is being built for legitimate security reasons - including the disputed section - security does not automatically trump all other considerations.

3) Thus even though changing the route will indeed increase risks of lethal attacks on Israelis, the route will have to be changed because of the hardships it would otherwise impose on Palestinians.


On political grounds, I continue to oppose the route of the fence. But of course courts do not address political policy. As a legal ruling in a case in which security and human rights were pitted against each other, I think the court's ruling is as about as wise and humanitarian a decision as could reasonably be hoped for.

P.S. I have you read The Lesser Evil by Michael Ignatieff yet? What actions democracies can legitimately take to fight terrorism is precisely the question he's interested in, and he provides a sophisticated analysis.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 08 July 2004 06:09 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The court's seperation of 'politics' and 'security' is laughably artificial....

The "security" problem arises from a "political" problem. The two cannot be so easily pulled apart. The wall represents the "political" choice to protect certain people's "security" while another group's "security" is denied. Even small "adjustments" to the line to address specific "security" needs of some Palestinians does not change that the "policy" which has enacted the barrier has a "political" basis which is closer to the heart of this "security" dilemma: the decision to keep some in and others out. The "political" decision about who may be "secure" in Israel/Palestine and who must remain "insecure".

So the fence moves, meanwhile, the Palestinians are still on the other side of it, keeping all the chauvinist dreams of Israelis alive...

What a load of shite. Nice to see the usual suspects going hook-line-and-sinker for this ideological claptrap.

[ 08 July 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 08 July 2004 08:51 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Courage everyone here knows that in your mind there is absolutley NOTHING Israel could do, short of commiting mass suicide, that would ever please you.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 08 July 2004 09:28 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Courage everyone here knows that in your mind there is absolutley NOTHING Israel could do, short of commiting mass suicide, that would ever please you.

Everyone here knows no such thing. It's bad enough you insult "many here" on a regular basis, but now you're presuming to speak for all of us?


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 08 July 2004 09:37 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Courage everyone here knows that in your mind there is absolutley NOTHING Israel could do, short of commiting mass suicide, that would ever please you.

Hey, wow!

I didn't know you were so omnipotent and omniscient you could instantly divine what "everybody knows", just like that!

Damn, can I be your promo agent for "Macabee's Psychic Tent Tour 2005"?

Psst. Let's try to stick to factual representations of what "everybody" knows.

"Everybody" knows I am a homosexual. That is a fact.

"Everybody" does not know exactly which radioactive isotope I handled the last official lab of last semester. (For your edification, it was Polonium, so now "everybody" does know).


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 July 2004 09:38 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Courage everyone here knows that in your mind there is absolutley NOTHING Israel could do, short of commiting mass suicide, that would ever please you.

Well over the line, Macabee, and you know it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 08 July 2004 09:51 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Im not sure its "well-over" but sometimes my passion does run a little high.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 July 2004 09:55 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So "passion" is your excuse for routinely breaking babble's rules.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 08 July 2004 10:04 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
So "passion" is your excuse for routinely breaking babble's rules.
No passion is my excuse for having to put up with some of the bizarre rhetoric that emenates from you and others.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 08 July 2004 10:19 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
for having to put up with

No one is forcing you to stay.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 08 July 2004 10:40 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Only my sense of right and wrong.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 08 July 2004 11:55 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of legal issues, I notice Al-Hayat Al-Jadida reports that the The Supreme National Committee for the Protection of the Right of Return is opposing participation of refugee camps in elections in the West Bank and Gaza.

They prefer to keep the refugees as refugees rather than allow them to participate in Palestinian elections - should these elections ever come to pass.

It's sad to see the PA using the refugees (or, really, the descendents of the refugees) as pawns.

Jordan extended citizenship to its Palestinians decades ago. Has any other Arab country followed suit yet?

Does anybody know?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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posted 09 July 2004 12:21 AM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
Why should they participate in WB and Ghaza elections? Why should they take another nationality?

They are indigenous palestinians, their home is in Akka, Yafa, Safad, Nazareth, Tiberius, etc...
As such, if it's gonna be any elections, it has to be the elections taking place in these areas. Arafat does NOT speak in their name. Don't lump them as Arabs! They are Palestinian, that identity supercedes the arab identity. They had no choice in leaving their land, do you want to strip from them the choice to return to it? By what right?


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 July 2004 03:47 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No passion is my excuse for having to put up with some of the bizarre rhetoric that emenates from you and others.

"bizarre" eh? Care to cite any examples?

And it just emenates [sic] from us? Unlike some babblers, whose words are scripted according to the manual, I suppose?

So what's your excuse for routinely breaking babble's rules?

[ 09 July 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 July 2004 11:28 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

"bizarre" eh? Care to cite any examples?

And it just emenates [sic] from us? Unlike some babblers, whose words are scripted according to the manual, I suppose?

So what's your excuse for routinely breaking babble's rules?

[ 09 July 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


Spelling flames are traditionally a no no on Babble. Again true for some but not for others?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 09 July 2004 11:29 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Only my sense of right and wrong.

Then quite fucking moaning already.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 09 July 2004 11:44 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Spelling flames are traditionally a no no on Babble. Again true for some but not for others?

And I quote the great victim himself, in response to one Al-Q:

I see that English is not your first language.

Is it really wise for you to suggest that spledding flames be punished, M?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 09 July 2004 12:16 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, your behaviour in this thread has been appalling.

First of all, you started the thread with baiting from the first sentence.

quote:
Well my word, that "racist" state of Israel with it's "whimpy" Supreme Court upheld a complaint by Palestinian farmers that the present route of a part of the security barrier is illegal. How is this possible? Im sure some here will find a way to negate even this.

And then you attacked WingNut and "others" personally:

quote:
As I said with the exception of Thomas who appears realistic on this, Wingnut and others must deride any positive demonstration by Israel. They just have to. Can't dseem to help themselves. Almost fetishistic. And you wonder why I resort to sarcasm at times?

Your next post was a smear:

quote:
But as far as Wingnut is concerned there is little or nothing good about Israel. Just so everyone fully understands where you come from wingnut.

And then all hell broke loose in this thread from here on out. It's true that others didn't behave perfectly, but you were the one who instigated it, as usual, Macabee.

I am thoroughly disgusted with your trolling, and I'm shutting your thread down since it's obviously just a vehicle for you to snipe at other babblers.

And you can consider this a warning from the moderator while you're at it. Stop trolling and baiting.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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