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Author Topic: UN, Israel and anti-Semitism
Macabee
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posted 23 June 2004 08:27 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's about time. The Star, one of Israel's more vocal (but civil) critics demands that the UN treat Israel as it does all other member states, fairly and with dignity.

Your thoughts?

UN and Israel


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 23 June 2004 08:53 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*PLONK*
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
praenomen3
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posted 23 June 2004 09:02 AM      Profile for praenomen3        Edit/Delete Post
I don't see why they even bother staying in. No country gets less from their membership. They're excluded from regional councils and committees by the Arab majority ... subject to an obscenely disproportionate volume of condemnations and resolutions by same ... that “Zionism is Racism” resolution back in the 70’s. (Not to say that one can’t criticize some of the excesses of Zionism, but Chr*st, a UN Resolution?)... the UN conference in Durban that predictably turned into the post-Holocaust world’s pre-eminent display of Jew-baiting . . . and on and on.

Sure, Israel’s done lots of bad things, and deserves to be criticized on them. But not by the UN. Or Adbusters. For the same reason.


From: x | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 June 2004 10:20 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
*PLONK*

Silly me how could I expect anyone here to take Israel's side on anything?

I mean of course that bastion of human rights and dignity, Libya, should Chair the UN human Rights Committee with fellow members, Syria, China, Congo,Cuba,Egypt,Ethiopia,Qatar, Russia,Saudi Arabia, all stalwart human rights protectors (just ask women and Gays)while Israel is permanatly denied membership.

"plonk" indeed, I would say hypocrisy, and elitism are two better words you would more closely identify with.

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 June 2004 10:22 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Problem is, the little editorial confuses several things. I am in total agreement about the need to be more pro-active in the fight against anti-semitic acts. I've posted many items here about anti-semitic and other hate crimes targeting specific groups - there have also been many desecrations of Muslim cemeteries and mosques in France recently, and I still recall one just a couple of blocks from me after 9-11. (I posted about that hate crime back then). Mycroft and others have also posted on such hate crimes and neo-Nazi groups.

As for Israel, well - as long as it is illegally occupying the Palestinian territories I don't think it has any case about any resolutions or other sanctions. Solving the double standard would imply not criticising Israel less but criticising other violators more. The first case that springs to mind is Russia - a permanent Security Council member and nominally a parliamentary democracy now, but inflicting unremitting horrors on the Chechen people. The US war on Iraq is also illegal and won't be sanctioned.

The problem of the lack of democracy in Third World countries is more complex. A lack of democracy is a consequence and at the same time a necessity for the continuation of under-development or a form of skewed development that benefits very few. Most of the other grave human rights violations now are being perpetrated by states that don't treat their own citizens at all well either. There are no easy solutions to this without a fundamental social change worldwide. If all countries that systematically violate the democratic rights of their own citizens were expelled from the UN, the latter would simply become a club for prosperous Western countries.

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 June 2004 10:30 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In light of the UN Human Rights Committee membership, do you agree that Israel should never be permitted to sit?

Look at the list Lagatta, no matter what Israel's violations may be when it comes to Human Rights issues it is far above the vast majority on this sorry committee, no?

UN Human Rigts committee


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 23 June 2004 10:33 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

I don't see why they even bother staying in. No country gets less from their membership.

Oh really? There wouldn't be an Israel without the UN.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 23 June 2004 10:35 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
*PLONK*

Don't be too hard on Mac. The best time to fish is early in the morning.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 23 June 2004 10:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Silly me how could I expect anyone here to take Israel's side on anything?

See what I wrote in the other thread. Quit trolling.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
praenomen3
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posted 23 June 2004 10:51 AM      Profile for praenomen3        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:

Oh really? There wouldn't be an Israel without the UN.


Lot's of nations and NGO's supported and recognized the State's creation. The UN was a (very) latecomer. And it doesn't excuse the institutional bias against Israel ever since.


From: x | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 June 2004 10:54 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

See what I wrote in the other thread. Quit trolling.


Not a troll but a response. Big difference. Sorry if you dont like the criticism. See my answer to you.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 23 June 2004 11:00 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by praenomen3:

Lot's of nations and NGO's supported and recognized the State's creation. The UN was a (very) latecomer. And it doesn't excuse the institutional bias against Israel ever since.


Late comer? UN approval was the sine qua none for the creation of the state. Perhaps that's why what you see as "bias," is largely deserved resentment of Israel's flouting of resolutions adoped by the very organization that sanctioned Israel's creation.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 23 June 2004 11:16 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel is permanatly denied membership

While technically accurate, Macabee, typically, glosses a much more complex issue:

quote:
To be eligible for election, a country must belong to a regional group. Every UN member state—from the smallest to the largest—is included in one of the five regional groups. By geography, Israel should be part of the Asian bloc but such countries as Iraq and Saudi Arabia have prevented its entry for decades.

As a temporary measure, Israel has sought acceptance in the West European and Others Group (WEOG), which includes not only the democracies of Western Europe but also Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Turkey and the United States.

Here, too, despite the support of several countries, including the U.S., Israel still has not been admitted.

Thus, without membership in a regional group, Israel can never be elected to serve a term on the Security Council or, for that matter, to the other most important bodies of the UN system, such as the Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC), the World Court, UNICEF and the Commission on Human Rights.



(emphasis added)

So. Not "permanently denied", but rather "has up until now completely failed to convince any group of countries to let it join their region".

My advice? Start complying with a few UNSC resolutions.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
praenomen3
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posted 23 June 2004 11:20 AM      Profile for praenomen3        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:

Late comer? UN approval was the sine qua none for the creation of the state. Perhaps that's why what you see as "bias," is largely deserved resentment of Israel's flouting of resolutions adoped by the very organization that sanctioned Israel's creation.


So we'll add "ingrate" to the list of Israel's many sins. If you read my post more carefully, I've got no problem with resolutions against a state that's in the wrong. But no impartial person can suggest that the sheer volume of resolutions and condemnations against Israel doesn't reflect poorly on the UN as well.


From: x | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 June 2004 09:08 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:

(emphasis added)

So. Not "permanently denied", but rather "has up until now completely failed to convince any group of countries to let it join their region".

My advice? Start complying with a few UNSC resolutions.


What sophistry. The fact that so many countries discriminate against the Jewish state should be an outrage to every social democrat here. Instead we see aRoused trying to explain why Israel is at fault while excusing the blatant bigotry of the other member states.

The Jewish state has now become the "dirty Jew" of The UN and as we did in the past we either remain silent or look for reasons to excuse the anti-Semitism. I guess in the case of the Jewish state "None is too Many".

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 June 2004 12:00 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Look at the list Lagatta, no matter what Israel's violations may be when it comes to Human Rights issues it is far above the vast majority on this sorry committee, no?[/URL]

You never learn, do you?

I keep bashing you over the head about this because you seem to think that if you do it just this once, nobody will call you on the fact that you're comparing Israel with countries that come in dead last in most quality of life statistics.

Any idiot can compare himself with the turtle that plods 500 meters in 12 hours. It takes more guts to compare oneself with the sprinter that can blast through that 500 meters in 20 seconds.

quote:
The Jewish state has now become the "dirty Jew" of The UN and as we did in the past we either remain silent or look for reasons to excuse the anti-Semitism. I guess in the case of the Jewish state "None is too Many".

That's not true and you know it.

I can't believe you said that crap. It has no value whatsoever as a practical footing for reasoned discussion and is simply designed to push emotional buttons by trying to tie the lack of enthusiastic support for Israel to the slippery-slope fallacy grounded in the siege mentality of some Israelis and their supporters which insists that any slight against Israel, no matter how rationally founded, is a one-way trip back to the Holocaust.

I don't say I can speak for anyone else, but I will dare you to show me where I have ever said in any way that "none is too many" for an Israeli-state.

Further, in regard to the lazy slurring over of the facts with regard to the sloppy methodology in measuring the alleged growth of anti-Semitism in Europe and its subsequent application to the perception of a threat to Israel's existence, I daresay we hashed all that over in another thread.

[ 24 June 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 24 June 2004 06:02 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So you stand by that claim of "permanently denied", do you?

Show me where it's written that Israel shall be always and forevermore permanently denied membership in any regional group, Macabee. Preferably on UN stationary.

(edited to add)

Sophistry? Sophistry!? But you wouldn't know anything about that, would you?

[ 24 June 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 24 June 2004 08:04 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

That's not true and you know it.

I can't believe you said that crap. It has no value whatsoever as a practical footing for reasoned discussion and is simply designed to push emotional buttons by trying to tie the lack of enthusiastic support for Israel to the slippery-slope fallacy grounded in the siege mentality of some Israelis and their supporters which insists that any slight against Israel, no matter how rationally founded, is a one-way trip back to the Holocaust.

I don't say I can speak for anyone else, but I will dare you to show me where I have ever said in any way that "none is too many" for an Israeli-state.

Further, in regard to the lazy slurring over of the facts with regard to the sloppy methodology in measuring the alleged growth of anti-Semitism in Europe and its subsequent application to the perception of a threat to Israel's existence, I daresay we hashed all that over in another thread.

[ 24 June 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


Why must you always believe that I am talking about you?? I am referring to the manner in which the UN treats Israel NOT DOCTOR CONWAY.

Take a break from your ego today.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 24 June 2004 08:10 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:
So you stand by that claim of "permanently denied", do you?

Show me where it's written that Israel shall be always and forevermore permanently denied membership in any regional group, Macabee. Preferably on UN stationary.

(]



This is a nice attempt at deflection.

My point is and I would ask you to comment, that Israel is discriminated against at the UN . This should be offensive to you and anyone else who values tolerance and fairness.

That countries which murder, discriminate and abuse human rights regularly are part of the UN Human Rights Committee and Israel cannot join due to the fact that it is despised by its Arab neighbours (I argue for being a Jewish state but reasons are not necessary no one here Im sure would defend bigotry like this)is an outrage. Do you agree?


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 24 June 2004 09:48 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's not a deflection, it's been my point since I joined this thread. I note you haven't clarified your wooly use of language.

Secondly, after a little looking around, it would seem that Israel has been in WEOG for the past four years.

At this point you will trot out the claim that "But it's only a temporary membership!", so often repeated by various non-Israeli-government sources. I counter you by pointing out that:

That temporary membership has been renewed a month ago

and

In point of fact, Israel itself wishes to join the Asian group at a later date, so of course the membership is temporary--it's temporary from both sides' point of view.

Also, note in the above link the second news release, about Israel being endorsed for its 8th UN post since 2003.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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posted 24 June 2004 09:59 AM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

Israel cannot join due to the fact that it is despised by its Arab neighbours (I argue for being a Jewish state but reasons are not necessary no one here Im sure would defend bigotry like this)


I didn't get that, could you please explain what you meant by the (I argue for being...) bit?


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 24 June 2004 10:43 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:
It's not a deflection, it's been my point since I joined this thread. I note you haven't clarified your wooly use of language.

Secondly, after a little looking around, it would seem that Israel has been in WEOG for the past four years.

At this point you will trot out the claim that "But it's only a temporary membership!", so often repeated by various non-Israeli-government sources. I counter you by pointing out that:

That temporary membership has been renewed a month ago

and

In point of fact, Israel itself wishes to join the Asian group at a later date, so of course the membership is temporary--it's temporary from both sides' point of view.

Also, note in the above link the second news release, about Israel being endorsed for its 8th UN post since 2003.



We are talking about the UH HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITTEE!!!
Israel has never been permited to have membership there..get it?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 24 June 2004 10:44 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mjollnir:

I didn't get that, could you please explain what you meant by the (I argue for being...) bit?


I believe that the Arab states discriminate against Israel because it is a jewish state. Why elese exclude it from regional representation?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 24 June 2004 10:58 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, perhaps Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories could have just a bit to do with the Arab League's attitude towards that state?

Please avoid "ironic racism" such as "dirty Jew". That is a translation of a very vicious insult (Dreckjude) the Nazis and their ilk used against their victims. If you check the babble faq, even "ironic racism" is to be avoided here. You'd be livid (with good reason) if another babbler used such hateful language.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 June 2004 11:07 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I doubt that anyone doubts that the UN has some deep problems, to which, in my view, all the secondary skewing is related.

The deepest problem of all is the U.S., and then I guess we could line up all the other members of the Security Council right behind the biggest superpower. There may have been a time when some innocents could believe that the Security Council was an effective mechanism for giving the entire UN some efficient and strategic direction, but that time is long past. The truth is that the superpowers hang on to it precisely because they refuse to accept that they are countries "like the others," and they fear real democracy worldwide.

We need to re-imagine the UN, but I can't see that happening soon. Although I believe that Israel has earned all the resolutions against it, obviously many other nations are deserving of tighter censure than they get. Since Israel is so obviously a client-state of the U.S., it logically draws special attention. Israel could, of course, decide all on its own to re-imagine itself ...

The reason to continue defending the UN at the moment, in spite of everything, is the brilliant, indispensable work that many UN agencies do worldwide. But a shake-up is needed -- I just can't see how that can be done while the USian Empire is in rage mode.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 24 June 2004 11:10 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More research..

quote:
We are talking about the UH HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITTEE!!!
Israel has never been permited to have membership there..get it?

NGO Guide to the UNHRC

Specifically:

quote:
Members

The Human Rights Committee is composed of 18 "independent experts" who serve in their individual capacity and not, as in many other UN bodies, as representatives of governments. Experts are nominated by their state and subsequently elected by a meeting of all state's parties to the covenant.



(emphasis mine)

At the time of that website's publication (not specified) the members included...

quote:
Mr. David Kretzmer
Israel

(edited to add)
I believe what you're trying to holler about is the Commission on Human Rights, which is made up of national representatives, in which case, with Israel now a member of WEOG, there's nothing to stop them from sitting on the Commission.

So don't say "never permitted", say "hasn't been elected by the WEOG members since it joined WEOG in 2000".

NB ne of the major stumbling blocks to Israel joining WEOG was that some WEOG members didn't want another 'mouth to feed' in terms of committee memberships, ie, adding a state to the region means the same number of committee seats have to be divided amongst a larger group of nations. This is also stifling attempts by some former Soviet Bloc countries to join WEOG.

I'm enjoying this learning experience.

[ 24 June 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 June 2004 11:22 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Why must you always believe that I am talking about you?? I am referring to the manner in which the UN treats Israel NOT DOCTOR CONWAY.

Take a break from your ego today.


Of course, this gave you the excuse to avoid discussing how you compared Israel to all the guys that come in dead last.

Besides, you used the royal "we" in your original post, so it wasn't obvious that you were talking about the United Nations as opposed to people on babble.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 24 June 2004 11:47 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the very grave human rights violations in such "failed states" as both Congos and Sudan deserve their own thread - the problem is that other than campaigns to drop the debt and encourage citizens' movements and development that benefits all people in those countries, the problems are so dire that we don't even know what we can do to help people there. (See www.alternatives.ca linked to on rabble for more info about these regions).

In the case of Israel, there is a functioning state, internal democracy (with some problems in terms of equal civil rights for Israeli Arabs) and the demand to be made is simple and feasable: withdraw from the Occupied Territories.

I'd actually tend to agree that there is a "double standard" - here I'm NOT referring to failed states or countries that come dead last in terms of the Human Development index, but to Russia's grave human-rights violations against the Chechens and the US-UK war on the Iraqis and the horrid mess that is creating throughout the region. But as skdadl says, it is hard to know who can reform the UN in that respect and how to achieve it.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 June 2004 11:58 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I believe that the Arab states discriminate against Israel because it is a jewish state.

Richard the Lionheart was Jewish?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 24 June 2004 12:48 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Macabee, perhaps Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories could have just a bit to do with the Arab League's attitude towards that state?

Please avoid "ironic racism" such as "dirty Jew". That is a translation of a very vicious insult (Dreckjude) the Nazis and their ilk used against their victims. If you check the babble faq, even "ironic racism" is to be avoided here. You'd be livid (with good reason) if another babbler used such hateful language.


I take your point on the language.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 24 June 2004 12:55 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

Of course, this gave you the excuse to avoid discussing how you compared Israel to all the guys that come in dead last.

Besides, you used the royal "we" in your original post, so it wasn't obvious that you were talking about the United Nations as opposed to people on babble.



The only one it wasn't obvious to was you.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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posted 24 June 2004 03:01 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
I believe that the Arab states discriminate against Israel because it is a jewish state. Why elese exclude it from regional representation?

Israel was established by terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and land grab (which it still proudly practices)
Israel continues to be the bully in the Levant, kidnapping civilian planes at will, bombarding whatever it chooses in any country, and violating the airspace of sovereign states
Israel can invade countries and wreak havoc, shedding blood as it pleases
Israel defies international law since its conception (yeah, “what do they get out of their membership”? Well, what membership is that when it mocks any UN resolution, and doesn’t abide by any. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems that in case of making a travesty of the UN, being still allowed membership is getting more than enough. Would any other country get away with this?)

But, in light of all this, why is Israel hated by the Palestinians, and consequently by Arabs?
Because it is Jewish. They can’t help the anti-Semitism in their genes.

[ 24 June 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]

[ 24 June 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 24 June 2004 03:14 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your rules don't apply to us.

Why won't you let us play?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 24 June 2004 03:32 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The only one it wasn't obvious to was you.

You really should speak for others.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 24 June 2004 03:32 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:

Israel was established by terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and land grab (which it still proudly practices)
Israel continues to be the bully in the Levant, kidnapping civilian planes at will, bombarding whatever it chooses in any country, and violating the airspace of sovereign states
Israel can invade countries and wreak havoc, shedding blood as it pleases
Israel defies international law since its conception (yeah, “what do they get out of their membership”? Well, what membership is that when it mocks any UN resolution, and doesn’t abide by any. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems that in case of making a travesty of the UN, being still allowed membership is getting more than enough. Would any other country get away with this?)

But, in light of all this, why is Israel hated by the Palestinians, and consequently by Arabs?
Because it is Jewish. They can’t help the anti-Semitism in their genes.

[ 24 June 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]

[ 24 June 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


Gotta love such anti-Israel garbage posted without context as though terrorism was child's play in a sand box.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 24 June 2004 03:58 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More like Here We Go 'Round the Macabee Bush...

[ 24 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
the artist
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posted 24 June 2004 04:08 PM      Profile for the artist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
macabee...

the prospects of the upcoming UN conference on anti-semitism does not bode well considering recent precedent!

the UN vs. Israel - a battle to the finish!


From: nb | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
the artist
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Babbler # 6172

posted 24 June 2004 04:09 PM      Profile for the artist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
help me out here...

how come my posts do not appear?

update...

so sorry - figured out I needed to scroll to bottom of page!

[ 24 June 2004: Message edited by: the artist ]


From: nb | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 June 2004 04:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Welcome to babble, the artist.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 24 June 2004 07:53 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by praenomen3:

So we'll add "ingrate" to the list of Israel's many sins. If you read my post more carefully, I've got no problem with resolutions against a state that's in the wrong. But no impartial person can suggest that the sheer volume of resolutions and condemnations against Israel doesn't reflect poorly on the UN as well.

In the sense that they've never taken any action to enforce any of them?


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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posted 24 June 2004 09:36 PM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
Macabee,

The arab states don't have a problem with israel because its major constituency is jewish. Actually, when it comes to israel , I believe that the arab states have a soft-spoken, generally mild attitude, as opposed to what the arab masses feel and say.
Now, coming to that, do you think that the arab people loathe the israeli state because its major demographic is jewish by religion? That is just absurd. This conflict is not, and will never be about religion or ethnicity, so please stop trying to portray it as such.
Case in point being Al-Manar TV, probably the most anti-israeli TV station you'll ever find. They use phrases such as "The zionist entity", or "The zionist enemy", but never do they use phrases such as "The Jewish enemy", even al-manar!
Now, going back to history a little bit. The Levantine people were Very Secular. Egyptians, palestinians, syrians and lebanese, perhaps to a lesser extent jordanians. (gasp, the very neighbours you accuse of anti-jewish sentiments). I'll give you a little example: in 1919, Saad Zaghlul, the egyptian PM, was exiled by England, and the egyptian street rose and forced his return. During the 1919 egyptian revolution, the national song on everyone's tongue was "Rise up, oh Egyptians", by Sayyed Darwish. It had this phrase:
/Quote/
For All you Christians, Muslims,and Jews,
Go out and say: "One Heart beats for all Our hearts"
/Unquote/
That's egypt, 1919, very anti-jewish innit?
Do you think that israel came as a haven of secularism into a land rife with sectarianism and religious disrimination? If so, show me one national palestinian song that even mentions religion, how about the old national anthem, "Mawtini Mawtini?"
So, basically, you see no direct connection between the practices of Israel, from 1948 till now, whether in palestine, lebanon, or even iraq (in 1948)

30,000 people lay dead in lebanon in the 1982 invasion. (only a handful of those were PLO fighters). The basic infrastructure was destroyed, downtown beirut became a ghost city, the economy was shattered, and the sectarian division was re-enforced.
for 22 years, land was occupied, water was stolen, villages bombed, massacres commited (1996, did anyone ever apologize?). So, yes, lebanese people probably despise the israeli state, and you, oh so willfully, attribute that to the fact that it's jewish?
As for the palestinians, let us not start, do you also think their problem is confined to religious differences?
How about egypt, a secular state until Sadat (the bastard) made it otherwise, through a despicable and systematic campaign? You think it's always been about "Arabs hate Jews?"

Do arabs have a problem with jews? Not in your life. Do they have a problem with Zionists? Probably yes, and Regardless of religion.

[ 24 June 2004: Message edited by: mjollnir ]


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 June 2004 12:24 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Zionists try making the claim that Arabs are antisemites because it helps them avoid thinking about the real issue - that they stole Arab land.

By saying "they hate us because we're jewish" they can stay within the comfortable cocoon of their sense of victimhood.

Their refusal to acknowledge the great injustice they are committing is the tragic flaw of the Zionist project.

Mishei's little quip is a perfect articulation of this flaw. Zionists can close their eyes, hold their hands over their ears and shout out their innocence, but they are walking towards the edge of a cliff.

It remains to be seen who falls over the edge with them.

[ 25 June 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 25 June 2004 11:59 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is in response mjollnir.

Your probably right about the fact that there many secular Arabs. Too bad there voice isn't herd. But Zionist with the exception of a few the colonialists you make them out to be.

1) The Zionist movement began in the late 19th century a vast majority of the Zionist from that time and even today (example Ethiopians and many Russians) were refugees themselves. Many (like my grandmother) lived in tents (refugee camps) on the beaches of the Mediterranean this camp later became known as Tel-aviv who did they steal land from? Many other Jews went to live in the Galilee and the Hula valley yes there were many Arab settlements they were up in the hills the vast majority of Jews lived in swaps thousands died from malaria. Who did they steal land from?
Yes they were Arab villages attacked but often the attacks were provoked I'm also know they were a few that were unprovoked or went too far. For that there should be compensation.
2) since the creation of the state of Israel many of the wars were provoked by it neighboring countries. The only unjustified war was probably the war in Lebanon but that is only because the cost severely out weighed the benefits. (I'm not just thinking in Jewish lives or Israel's economic benefits here I am thinking about the region). Regardless the Lebanese maybe justified in being upset with the Israelis but they should be more upset at the Syrian who entered Lebanon in the 1970's and attempted to annex it. They destroyed the government and the Lebanese democracy there it is the Syrians fault that the chaos spread into Israel and Israel got dragged into Lebanon however Israel should still be held accountable for the crimes it committed in Lebanon. Syria is just more of a priority.
3) Israel should also be held accountable for the crimes it is committing today. That does not mean it should cease to exist or that there should be an unconditional right of return that will not fix the problem.

The point I'm trying to make is that The Arab Israeli wars are very different from most other wars which are about economics such as the Arabs versus the United States or Africa Versus the west or South America versus North America. If it were about economics there would have been peace long ago. Long ago every one would have realized that in order to benefit economically peace and accommodation, understanding and cooperation is what is needed in order to grow economically but its not about that. It is about identity and neither side is willing to give that up. I don't believe anyone should give up their identity. However in order to keep it and stop the suffering both Arabs and Israeli's need to make compromises. They need to have reforms. Not forget their identities but bring it into the 21st century. Say ok we can keep control of some Holy or Historical sites that are important to us but not all. The others we will just have to trust and cooperate with our neighbors. Sadly I haven't found a political or philosophical theory yet that protects identity sufficiently and fairly enough. Not Marxism not capitalism not Communism certainly not fascism. The closest probably would be anarchism but anarchism does not have the means to prevent chaos or abuse.
If you were xenophiles as I am you'd support Zionism (not all Zionism because there are some radical fascistic forms of it same as there are some radical fascistic forms of Islam). In North America identities and cultures are slowly disintegrating. I think that it is a sad shame this is something that a global democracy can not fix there is always the fear of the tyranny of the majority or a in an even worse case such as in china or the soviet union totalitarians exploring the government for there own interest that is. We will never solve the clash of identities that why people need states that they identify with and can better defend themselves. That’s why it comes to Israeli's and Palestinians the two state solution is the only solution. Sadly both sides are making this more and more difficult.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 25 June 2004 05:04 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's about time. The Star, one of Israel's more vocal (but civil) critics demands that the UN treat Israel as it does all other member states, fairly and with dignity.

Its totally bogus. The reality is that the great majority of UN resolutions against Israel are reaffirmations of previous resolutions that Israel has ignored. The "by the numbers" critique only works if you ignore the content of the resolutions.

How many times must Israel be told that the occupation of the West Bank is against International law?

Think of it as repeat mailings from Hydro telling you that you still have not paid your bill. Your defence of Israel's bad credit is not to your credit and speaks to your own lack of credibility.

[ 25 June 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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posted 25 June 2004 06:45 PM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
Justice,
Am I asking for anyone to leave? I certainly am not. But, when someone is more worried about the character of a state than about the rights of 3 million people, well, then I am baffled.

some people came, settled in, and lived in uninhabited places, fine, no denying that it happened. But what about Akka, Yafa, Haifa, West Jerusalem, Nazareth, Deir Yassin, etc... Were those places uninhabited? Do you claim that 750 000 people forced to leave their homes qualifies as "Some villages here and there?". No, there were 488 villages,evacuated via systematic terrorism and ethnic cleansing. How did israel end up with 78% of the land, if it was only "some villages?"
The right of return is a Right, it's not a small word that people play with around dinner tables. It has to be applied, whether in Sudan, Turkey, or Palestine/Israel. You don't deny people that right because you don't want to cramp the style of the state in question.

You said that israel was somehow forced to act in lebanon, and that syria is more at fault. I want to ask you a question, have you ever been in a city as it was carpet-bombed? Do you understand the concept of carpet-bombing and collateral damage? Then israelis go and elect the "hero" of the campaign as prime minister, how are arabs supposed to feel?
Whatever syria did pales in comparison of the siege of beirut, 1982. And let's not talk about Lebanese democracy and what israel did to it when it was in lebanon.
As for the wars being provoked by the neighbours, you can read the "who started the 1967 war" thread, as an example. for 1948, you can argue that murdering unarmed palestinians and land-grabbing wasn't enough as a pretext for 5 arab states to send a sorry-excuse for an army, numbering 15000 pathetic soldiers, to try and rescue palestine. I wouldn't know, perhaps they should have watched, or struck an under-the-table agreement like king Abdullah did with Golda Maer?


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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Babbler # 6174

posted 26 June 2004 11:49 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:
[QB]
Because it is Jewish. They can’t help the anti-Semitism in their genes.

Michelle,
This would be an example of ironic antisemitism referred to earlier - the kind not permitted on Babble?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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Babbler # 6174

posted 26 June 2004 12:33 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mjollnir:
[QB]Case in point being Al-Manar TV, probably the most anti-israeli TV station you'll ever find. They use phrases such as "The zionist entity", or "The zionist enemy", but never do they use phrases such as "The Jewish enemy", even al-manar!

mjollnir,
There are real issues between some Arab states and Israel. There's antisemitism.

"zionist" is frequently used as a synoym for Jewish, and the virulent antisemitism of groups like Hezbollah and their tv station al-Manar is glaringly obvious.

To give one example, during October-November 2003, a 29-part Syrian-produced Ramadan special 'Al-Shatat' (Diaspora) was aired by Al-Manar. This special would have made Hitler proud (except perhaps for the claim that the Jews were responsible for the Holocaust).

MEMRI describes the contents thus….

“According to 'Al-Shatat,' the Jews have sought to control the world for many centuries, via a secret global Jewish government. Since the 19th century, this secret government has been led by the Rothschild family.

"Under this government's leadership, the Jews were directly responsible for the following:

starting the Russo-Japanese war;
assassinating Archduke Franz Ferdinand at Sarajevo; starting WWI;
starting WWII;
dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki;
helping Hitler annihilate the Jews of Europe;
helping the Nazis annihilate 800,000 Hungarian Jews in exchange for the release of 2,000 wealthy German Jews;
toppling the Ottoman sultan;
deposing Czar Nicholas II;
starting the Kishinev pogroms;
ritually murdering a Christian child in Rumania and using his blood for matzos;
torturing and murdering a Jew who married a Christian; murdering Czar Alexander III in Russia;
causing the English stock market to collapse following the Battle of Waterloo and again during WWI, in order to make millions of pounds (for the Rothschilds);
spying for Germany against France (Dreyfus);
inventing chemical weapons (Chaim Weizmann) and selling them to both the Germans and the English;
refusing to accept elderly Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis into Palestine;
murdering 100 people in Egypt during military training prior to WWI;
deposing British prime ministerLord Asquith;
sinking a boatload of Jewish refugees en route to the U.S.;
murdering emigrating Jews who tried to turn back to Europe;
murdering many other characters in the series in a variety of ways;
and numerous other catastrophes and criminal deeds."

See
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP62703

For video excerpts see
http://www.memri.org/video/

Including this sort of thing…

Scene 1 Episode 6 - Summary:
In this scene, a group of rabbis and other Jews in a Romanian ghetto gather to torture and kill the father of Theodor Herzl's mistress, the owner of a brothel. The man was found guilty of marrying a non-Jewish woman.

(Al-Manar TV, Lebanon, November 1, 2003)

Man: "Water, water."

Head Rabbi: "You hold his nose shut. You, open his mouth with tongs. You, pour lead into his mouth. You, cut off his ears. You, stab his body with a knife before the lead kills him. This is a sacred Talmudic court….

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP61003


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 26 June 2004 12:34 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We've had previous discussions on babble that included the mention of the Arabs' "terrorist gene" as a means of explaining why certain posters tend to make connections between Islam, being an Arab and violence.

The theories supposing the existence of this gene made as much sense as anything the above-mentioned posters had to say on the matter.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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Babbler # 6174

posted 26 June 2004 03:13 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
[QB]certain posters tend to make connections between Islam, being an Arab and violence.
QB]

I'm a busy guy and certainly haven't read every post in this thread, but I haven't noticed anyone implying this sort of racism.

If you think someone is implying that Arabs or Muslims are by nature violent, why don't you don't you you say who and point out where they say this?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 26 June 2004 03:35 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm a busy guy and certainly haven't read every post in this thread, but I haven't noticed anyone implying this sort of racism.

Since nobody said this happened on this thread you can save some of that valuable time of yours.

I'm not going to go digging through old threads for each instance of this, but these discussions have happened.

quote:
This special would have made Hitler proud...

*paging Macabee*

[ 26 June 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 27 June 2004 11:24 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But what about Akka, Yafa, Haifa, West Jerusalem, Nazareth, Deir Yassin, etc... Were those places uninhabited? Do you claim that 750 000 people forced to leave their homes qualifies as "Some villages here and there?". No, there were 488 villages,evacuated via systematic terrorism and ethnic cleansing. How did israel end up with 78% of the land, if it was only "some villages?"


Never said that this didn't happen, But you seem to be laying the sole blame on Israel or at least the vast majority. This is inaccurate. Israel is not the imperialist, colonialist, capitalist nation you make it out to be. They were refugees back before it was created. They tried to fit in wherever they were for 2000 years. They often tried conversion in many places and even that often did not help. I'm not saying that there security should be at the Palestinians expense, it will never work that way but they are there now and have been for a while some of them for a very, very, very long while so now what is needed is compromise.
quote:
The right of return is a Right, it's not a small word that people play with around dinner tables. It has to be applied, whether in Sudan, Turkey, or Palestine/Israel. You don't deny people that right because you don't want to cramp the style of the state in question.

Yeah it a right all right but what will it accomplish. What ends are you trying to reach do you really think if the Palestinian refugees will return to their homes in Haifa, Akko, Yaffo…that will be then end of it? That they will be happier and safer? Luckily I know many Palestinians that are more realistic then that and they understand what needs to be done. I don't blame many of them for giving up this cause under the Israeli occupation but if they choose to be even more violent then they will have to live with the consequences. Once again I must be clear so there is no confusion the blame is not solely one side or the others but each can take steps to prevent the collective suffering of one side or the other.
My goal is not to prolonged the suffering of either people I will admit that the Israeli government has done many stupid things that are not in the interest of that goal (end suffering) sadly. I would like all nations and all people to be able to have a place of there own that they feel a connection to that they can be safe and secure to live the way the want. Sadly there were always be some clashes that’s why compromise is needed.
People talk about a bi-national democratic state. These are Marxist, socialist, Communist ideals and they won't work. There is no system in place to really defend minorities in states like these.
Liberalism and Capitalism won't work because they have no foresight and it they don't care about people.
Anarchism is the closest you'll get to being fair but it won't work either because as beautiful as it is to expect people to respect each other and some unwritten code it won't happen. I wish I could trust all people but the history of the Jews has taught me you can't and God knows they tried.

quote:
I want to ask you a question, have you ever been in a city as it was carpet-bombed? Do you understand the concept of carpet-bombing and collateral damage? Then israelis go and elect the "hero" of the campaign as prime minister, how are arabs supposed to feel?
Whatever syria did pales in comparison of the siege of beirut, 1982. And let's not talk about Lebanese democracy and what
israel did to it when it was in lebanon.

What do you mean Lebanese the democracy? Yes I'll admit Lebanon use to be one of the most democratic nations in the middle east maybe even the most. The only other 2 that near democracy were Iran and is Israel but by the time Israel entered leabnon as I have shown sadly and this does not take away from the responsibility of the crimes that Israel committed there but there was no real democracy thanks to the Syrians.

This is ridiculous. I probably know more about war then I'd like to know. You can say that Israel's moral standards are very low you can even say they near zero. But trust me my friend when I say if that’s the case then the Syrian leadership has none. I would rather be an Arab under Israeli occupation then an Arab under Syrian occupation any day.

[ 27 June 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 27 June 2004 07:28 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I would rather be an Arab under Israeli occupation then an Arab under Syrian occupation any day.


Hmmmm. Seems the body counts are higher in the Israeli case. Seems that Syria does not impose curfews, severely restrict movement, divert water resources to Syria, and so on. On issues of 'dissapearances' and torture, they are about on par, in fact.

Not to mention that Syria hasn't removed hundreds of thousands of Arabs from their homes and property and continued a policy of ethnic cleansing for 50 years.

But really, when you are busy trying to eek out tiny incremental differences between the moral tenor of your actions and those of the Damascus government, you are engaged in an embarrassingly absurd endeavour.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 27 June 2004 08:19 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hmmmm. Seems the body counts are higher in the Israeli case. Seems that Syria does not impose curfews, severely restrict movement, divert water resources to Syria, and so on. On issues of 'dissapearances' and torture, they are about on par, in fact.
Not to mention that Syria hasn't removed hundreds of thousands of Arabs from their homes and property and continued a policy of ethnic cleansing for 50 years.
But really, when you are busy trying to eek out tiny incremental differences between the moral tenor of your actions and those of the Damascus government, you are engaged in an embarrassingly absurd endeavour.

Body count higher on the Israeli side??? I'd say that the Syrians are pretty close if not over. They are responsible for plenty of massacres. Hama is but one example of 30,000 dead and I can bring many.
Does not divert water resources? You got to be joking. The Lebanese sure have tried to divert water resources from Israel. I wouldn't be surprised if that was at the hands of Syria. And the only reasons the Syrians to day won't divert water with Israel is because Israel is somewhat friends with Turkey who would divert from the Syrians at the other end. As it is Israel is in a tough enough situations and has to buy water from Turkey.
Restrict movement or curfews??? Sure if anyone does or says anything that is not inline with the Syrian government their killed immediately.
Ethnic cleansing hmmm??? Once again what's a massacre?
And lets not forget the both Israel and Syria have pursed and acquired although maybe not to the same degree weapons of mass destruction. Question is once again who actually has used?
Anyway aside form all that I will admit it is an absurd endeavor because both should be held immediately to the crimes they have committed. I would be even willing to give up the place I was born Golan Heights in assurance for peace. By the way if you really want to find out under whose regime it's better to live under ask a couple Druze. I'm sure it would surprise you what they have to say they've tasted both.

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 28 June 2004 01:11 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mjollnir:
The arab states don't have a problem with israel because its major constituency is jewish.... Do arabs have a problem with jews? Not in your life.
[ 24 June 2004: Message edited by: mjollnir ]

Well, I'd like to believe Jew-hatred doesn't come into it.... But then I'd like to believe in Santa Claus, too.


From, 'Reaching the Congress' by Naser Ahmad, an official at the Palestinian Authority's Political Guidance Directorate, in the Palestinian Authority Daily, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida:

"Corruption is a Jewish trait worldwide. So much so that one can seldom find corruption that was not masterminded by Jews or that Jews are not responsible for. They are well known for their intense love of money and its accumulation.

"The way in which they get hold of that money does not interest them in the least. On the contrary - they would use the most basic despicable ways, to realize their aim, so long as those who might be affected were non-Jews. A Jew would cross any line if it were in his interest..."

From "Jewish Control of the World Media," by Seif 'Ali Al-Jarwan in Al-Hayat Al-Jadida:

"Wherever they have lived, Jews have been subject to hatred because of their monopoly over most of the economic resources on which people live. In 'The Merchant of Venice', a play written by the English poet Shakespeare, the merchant Shylock epitomizes the avaricious Jew. Shylock is fraudulent, villainous and spiteful. This serves as the best example of the hatred of Jews.

“How, then, did the Jews manage to brainwash American and European public opinion? How did the image of Jews become that of the wise, courageous, ingenious, dexterous, and ambitiously innovative people?!

"One is inevitably led to believe that the success of the Jews has not been a mere coincidence. It resulted from long and arduous years of planning, which preceded their cunning control of the world's media.

"In a speech delivered in Prague in 1869, the Jewish Rabbi Yeshurun expressed this Jewish interest in the media, when he said: 'If gold is our first means to control the world, then the press should be our second one.'

"The first Zionist Congress, held in Basle in 1897, marked an ominous turning point, because the participants expressed their desire to implement a criminal plot to set up the State of 'Israel'.

"They unanimously agreed that, unless complete control over the media, and the press in particular, is achieved, unless they fully subdue the press, so as to deny their enemies even one medium of expression, and unless they themselves act as filters of information in society, such a state would not reach fruition.

"Nonetheless, the Jews could not change their obscene image until the turn of the century, because a number of Western nations fought against Zionist activities -- particularly the Americans, who were busy consolidating their Federation. The Americans were alarmed at the prospect of Jewish control over the American economy and foreign policy.

"Later, Jews managed to take control of much of America's media, as well as media in Europe and elsewhere. Thus, they managed, to some extent, to change the image of Jews as ugly and vile in the eyes of the world. They proved particularly successful in America and Europe.

"When Nazi persecution of the Jews began, the winds began blowing in their favor. What Hitler did to the Jews actually exposed the Jewish plot. World public opinion, manipulated by the Jews, took advantage of these persecutions, disseminating stories about a collective massacre. They concocted horrible stories of gas chambers which Hitler, they claimed, used to burn them alive.

“The press overflowed with pictures of Jews being gunned down by Hitler's machine guns or being pushed into gas chambers. The press focused on suffering women, children and elderly people in order to rouse empathy and claim reparations, donations, and grants from around the world."

"The truth is that such persecution was a malicious fabrication by the Jews. It is a myth which they named 'The Holocaust' in order to rouse empathy...."


Actually, I think this guy inspired Chomsky's media theories.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 June 2004 01:41 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think your a fuckin nut case.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 June 2004 01:12 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nah, more like a case of selective memri.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 28 June 2004 01:32 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are you suggesting that these quotes are lies? If so please prove it if not it is pretty scary,no?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 28 June 2004 01:39 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that cue and al-Q are suggesting that MyName quotes like a magpie.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 June 2004 03:04 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wouldn't trust MEMRI farther than I can throw anyone in it. They seem to love doing hatchet jobs on Arabs by picking all the worst crap to translate.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 28 June 2004 03:20 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
I wouldn't trust MEMRI farther than I can throw anyone in it. They seem to love doing hatchet jobs on Arabs by picking all the worst crap to translate.
So this shouldn't bother us?

And how is it you know this about MEMRI? Al Q'Bong tell you?


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 28 June 2004 03:36 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why is it that some posters refuse to click links before asking stupid questions, anyway?
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 28 June 2004 03:42 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
Why is it that some posters refuse to click links before asking stupid questions, anyway?

And of course we should have the response from MEMRI


MEMRI response

All this notwithsatnding is there ANY proof that the pieces quoted above are lies? Still waiting.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 28 June 2004 03:49 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where are our manners? Macabee, I apologize for not pointing this thread out to you before. I'm sure you'll want the opportunity to post there too.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 28 June 2004 04:59 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Where are our manners? Macabee, I apologize for not pointing this thread out to you before. I'm sure you'll want the opportunity to post there too.

Thanks I appreciate it very much.I had not yet seen this thread, How awful.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 June 2004 05:01 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
So this shouldn't bother us?

And how is it you know this about MEMRI? Al Q'Bong tell you?


You should really spell peoples' handles properly, Macabee. I make the effort to address you by your correct handle, with proper spelling and capitalization. Please do others on this message board a similar courtesy.

Now, as to the business about MEMRI. The rebuttal claims a bunch of stuff that is not directly verifiable, since if you fire up your web browser and look here, the address they give is a PO Box and there is no substantive information about who works where or does what.

This certainly doesn't seem like an unbiased "bridging the language gap" setup. They deliberately go out of their way to pick up the worst crap in the Middle Eastern media and splash it all over for people here to see, and thus get the idea that every Middle Eastern brown person is a deluded slavering anti-Semite. This, of course, takes no account of the fact that they have brains just like we do and can think for themselves as to whether or not the stuff they read is factual. In addition, it makes the usual mistake of smushing Israeli and American interests together, instead of recognizing that the United States' geopolitical interests may be different from Israel's. As an example, the USA has to quietly offer assistance to countries like Saudi Arabia, whose princes flaunt their wealth at the dispossessed of that nation.

If you knew anybody from the Soviet Union, Macabee, you'd know that many Soviets were very cynical about the official propaganda they got fed by the government, and usually took such as they did read with a fairly huge chunk of salt.

Your implicit assumption (in accepting the validity of MEMRI's work) is that Arabs and Iranians are incapable of embodying the same basic cynicism, and refusal to accept blindly what their governments tell them.

But then, if you had to take account of that you and your ilk wouldn't be able to blithely dismiss the racist comments made by top Israeli officials, because then you would have to ask yourself if you are not falling into the same trap.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 28 June 2004 05:11 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You should really spell peoples' handles properly, Macabee. I make the effort to address you by your correct handle, with proper spelling and capitalization. Please do others on this message board a similar courtesy.


I thought spelling flames were ill-thougt of on Babble? Or does that only apply to some and not others?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 June 2004 05:50 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He's right, DrC. Spelling flames are lame.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 28 June 2004 06:02 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As someone who's been addressed as "McGoo" many times, by otherwise literate people, I'm going to side with Dr. Conway here.

If you misspell 'antidisestablishmentarianism' wrong that's one thing, but to misspell a name that's just to the left of the post to which you're responding, that's quite another. It's not the end of the world, but it's not a garden variety speling flame either.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 28 June 2004 06:03 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think there might be a difference between a true spelling flame and being annoyed at continued or purposeful mispellings of other posters names. I do recall an accidental mispelling of my handle that made me a tad annoyed. People have been suspended or at least warned for purposeful mispellings of other posters names.

Also, Macabee under one handle or another has engaged in a spelling flame or two, so it's pretty sad to see him bringing it up now.

So if fair is fair, where is Macabee's warning? How about 2 minutes for diving/unsportsmanlike conduct?


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 28 June 2004 06:59 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
I think there might be a difference between a true spelling flame and being annoyed at continued or purposeful mispellings of other posters names. I do recall an accidental mispelling of my handle that made me a tad annoyed. People have been suspended or at least warned for purposeful mispellings of other posters names.

Also, Macabee under one handle or another has engaged in a spelling flame or two, so it's pretty sad to see him bringing it up now.

So if fair is fair, where is Macabee's warning? How about 2 minutes for diving/unsportsmanlike conduct?


Many people her including al-Qa'bong, purposely mispell my name or refer to me puposely by other names that are not mine. I say nothing because frankly, who cares? But yes fair is fair, my expectation is that others here will refer to me by my proper name , Macabee, and I commit to doing the same for others. Fair is fair.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 June 2004 07:05 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nobody claimed that MEMRI invents quotes, Macabee, but considering that Mossad psyops veterans run the place, and that these spooks comb through everything they can find printed in Arabic to come up with their few examples, and then flout these examples as typical expressions of the Arab/Muslim mind in an effort to demonize an entire people, you'll have to forgive us Macabee, if we don't arrive at their intended conclusions.

[ 28 June 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 28 June 2004 07:33 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
that these spooks comb through everything they can find printed in Arabic to come up with their few examples

"Few" examples? Just a "few"?

Hope you take those blinders off when you're driving there Al-Q

[ 28 June 2004: Message edited by: worker_drone ]


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 June 2004 08:13 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I grant that there are more than a FEW examples cited on MEMRI, but I might point out that it strikes me that what they seem to particularly seek out are selective cuttings designed to portray the Middle Eastern population as a whole in an unflattering light.

Speaking of which...

quote:
As spake by Macabee:
I thought spelling flames were ill-thougt of on Babble? Or does that only apply to some and not others?

Way to avoid the substantive content of my post by nigletizing about the one thing you can try to rebut! Gosh, that was such a prize post! I stand in awe of your ability to respond to my points in detail!

[ 28 June 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 28 June 2004 09:10 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
I

Way to avoid the substantive content of my post by nigletizing about the one thing you can try to rebut! Gosh, that was such a prize post! I stand in awe of your ability to respond to my points in detail!

[ 28 June 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


You re a hoot...you are the one that flames then you critisize me for responding to your stupid flame in the first place...Doc its hard to believe that you in fact graduated high school.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 June 2004 09:23 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't suppose anyone's concerned that there is a full-time staff of Mossad-trained operatives culling select quotes from a population of 1 1/4 billion souls in an effort to spread suspicion and hatred of Arabs and Muslims in the Western World.

I'm sorry, but this is Joseph Goebbels territory.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 28 June 2004 09:30 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
You re a hoot...you are the one that flames then you critisize me for responding to your stupid flame in the first place...Doc its hard to believe that you in fact graduated high school.

Oh no. If I'd really wanted to make it a spelling flame, you'd feel the heat from a mile away. So please, save your indignation for someone else. Now, are you going to respond substantively to the points I raised or am I to chalk this one up to another of your avoidance tactics?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 29 June 2004 01:23 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
I don't suppose anyone's concerned that there is a full-time staff of Mossad-trained operatives culling select quotes from a population of 1 1/4 billion souls in an effort to spread suspicion and hatred of Arabs and Muslims in the Western World.

I'm sorry, but this is Joseph Goebbels territory.


Gee and we were doing so well avoiding the Jew as nazi trap...and along comes al who seems to have this fetish...anywhere he can he must compare Israelis (read Jews) to nazis. It is shameful isnt it?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 June 2004 02:09 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you actually wear the red clown nose and big shoes when you post, Mish?

Scroll up the thread a bit to where another poster compared Arabs to Hitler.

Your silence there was rather shameful, wouldn't you say?

And as far as MEMRI encouraging hatred of Arabs, creating a culture that can kill thousands of them without a second thought, doesn't the phrase "Never Again" sound rather hollow?

And regarding that "(read Jew)" crack of yours; I'm sure being Jewish is important to you, and it may be important to a lot of Israelis, but to the people whose land was stolen and who are today living under the harsh oppression of the Occupation, the Palestinians' tormenters could be Lutherans for all the difference their origins matter.

[ 29 June 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 29 June 2004 08:19 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
al-Qa'Bong, your constant need to compare Israelis (read Jews) to nazis is what is shameful. I have condemened all such nazi comparisions in the past and my record speaks for itself . Sadly so does yours.

BTW most here agreed that it is expected that spelling flames (especially of names) is ill-thought of on Babble. Your choice to purposely mispell my name is just another example of your arrogance.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 June 2004 08:47 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's a difference between a genuine spelling error and making fun of someone by turning their handle into something insulting. Macabee misspelled al-Qa'bong, and he didn't change it into anything insulting, such as "McGoo".

If al-Qa'bong has a problem with Macabee's spelling error, he can let me know. There's no reason for Doc to jump in and chastise him for it when it's obvious that it's a real error and not an attempt to insult.

As for Macabee being called "Mish" or "Mishabee" - well, too bad. That's a consequence of opening serial accounts and sock puppet accounts on babble.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 29 June 2004 10:24 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
There's a difference between a genuine spelling error and making fun of someone by turning their handle into something insulting. Macabee misspelled al-Qa'bong, and he didn't change it into anything insulting, such as "McGoo".

If al-Qa'bong has a problem with Macabee's spelling error, he can let me know. There's no reason for Doc to jump in and chastise him for it when it's obvious that it's a real error and not an attempt to insult.

As for Macabee being called "Mish" or "Mishabee" - well, too bad. That's a consequence of opening serial accounts and sock puppet accounts on babble.


In that case I will treat those who use my correct name respectfully by using their correct name. I will feel free to answer in kind those who purposely mispell or mis-name me. Fair is fair.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 June 2004 11:58 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
al-Qa'Bong, your constant need to compare Israelis (read Jews) to nazis is what is shameful. I have condemened all such nazi comparisions in the past and my record speaks for itself .

What "constant need"? As I've pointed out many times, the Jewishness of Israelis doesn't matter one bit. That "antisemite" slur of yours is an argument of last resort because you can't honestly respond to criticism of Israeli policies.

As for your record in condemning all such comparisons, as I pointed out above, you do not do so, but instead are quite selective in your condemnations. And yes, your record in that regard certainly does speak for itself.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 29 June 2004 12:56 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As I've pointed out many times, the Jewishness of Israelis doesn't matter one bit.
Thanks Al'Qa...nuff said.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 June 2004 01:21 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee Mish, does that mean you'll stop your "antisemite" slurs?

And as for MEMRI, don't you have have a problem with their helping to create a climate that makes Abu Ghraib possible and that forces Iraqis to bury their own in football stadiums that have become mass graves?

Don't you have a problem with a propaganda outlet that helps make it possible for the USA and its allies to turn their gunsights on any Arab "terrorist" du jour and thus give themselves a carte blanche to kill thousands of innocents in the name of fighting "terrorism"?

That's what MEMRI does, and if you support them, you're complicit in what bloodshed they help to cause.

[ 29 June 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 29 June 2004 04:31 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
So, just to be clear Al-Q, you don't have a problem with what's being printed in the Arab media, you just think the problem is that MEMRI is reporting it?
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 June 2004 05:06 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, worker-drone, the problem is with their motivation.

If there were an organization that printed whatever racist screed that Zionist extremists write or say, and presented it as mainstream opinion, in an effort to foment hatred of Jews, would you object?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 29 June 2004 05:25 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
No, worker-drone, the problem is with their motivation.

If there were an organization that printed whatever racist screed that Zionist extremists write or say, and presented it as mainstream opinion, in an effort to foment hatred of Jews, would you object?



Except it seems to me that the papers MEMRI quotes from are the mainstream Arab and Palestinian news sources.

Do you honestly believe that Ha'aretz or even the Jerusalem Post would print such racist drivel?


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 June 2004 06:14 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, they have been known to quote some outrageous utterances by Knesset members and Israeli Cabinet ministers.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 29 June 2004 06:45 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The racism in Haaretz and the JP is every bit as insidious as the sorts of paranoid projections found in some Arab newspapers.

At various times the 'Transfer' of Palestinians has been openly advocated by mainstream pundits. That 'Transfer' is discussed in such a non-chalant manner indicates a deep racism. It implies that the Palestinians are really not the kinds of creatures that we extend rights to (humans), and that they are, in fact, just some sort of herd which can be up and moved because it is inconvenient and recalcitrant.

Furthermore, papers like Haaretz and JP have been instrumental in narrating this ongoing conflict as one between a heroic, victimised Israel and a terrible, benighted stranger that only seeks vengeance and destruction, completely obfuscating the daily reality of the Occupation and rendering the individual and collective lives of Palestinians as moot and inconsequential.

Surely there have been dissenting views, particularly in Haaretz, and from time to time you may find some honesty about the travesty that Israel is engaged in and about the conditions forced upon the Palestinians. But views counter to those presented by MEMRI (itself a rather dubious organisation) are to be found in those Arab papers as well, so there isn't much safe ground to be found in that point (hint, hint). The racism exists regardless.

[ 29 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 29 June 2004 10:18 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
Racist hate propaganda does not appear in any legitimate Israeli media, because as in Canada and as in most liberal democracies, publishing hate propaganda is illegal.

In various Arab nations, far from being illegal, hate propaganda appears in state-controlled mainstream media.

Here are excerpts from sermons delivered by employees of the Religious Affairs ministry of the supposedly secular Palestinian Authority and broadcast on Palestinian Authority TV…

From the March 12, 2004 sermon by Sheikh Ibrahim Mudeiris , delivered in the Sheikh 'Ijlin Mosque in Gaza:

"Oh servants of Allah, history repeats itself. When the Prophet entered Al-Madina, he entered it in order to establish the Islamic state. But he found serpents there, disseminating their venom among the Arabian tribes….

"When he investigated the cause of these civil wars, he found that the Jews were behind them. The most grave thing the Prophet saw was the war raging between the Aws and Khazraj tribes. When he investigated the cause of this great war between the two largest tribes, he found a Jew behind it. A Jew named Shas sparked the fire of civil strife between the Aws and Khazraj.

"The Prophet received an instruction from the Lord of heaven and earth, Who knows the nature of the Jews, who forever live off the fire of civil strife and disseminating their venom among the brothers, Muslims, and friends. Allah ordered him to forge his plan to take care of the Jewish existence in Al-Madina.

"The Prophet had three stages in taking care of the Jewish existence: The first was political. One should deal with the Jews politically to defend oneself from their evil. The Prophet dealt with them politically and signed pacts with them, even though he knew they treat the Muslims ruthlessly, but this was an unavoidable stage. Oh Allah's servants, it was an unavoidable political stage in order to strengthen the Muslims, because wars weaken the Muslims if they are not strong enough to begin with.

“The second stage was harder for the Muslims: The stage of tolerating the damage caused by the Jews, who again, began violating the pacts and spreading their poison among the Muslims…

"Then came the great battle of Badr, where the Muslims grew stronger. This brought the third stage of dealing with the Jewish existence in Al-Madina. We have tolerated you for a long time - you offspring of apes and pigs…!”


From a sermon by Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi delivered in the Sheik 'Ijlin Mosque in Gaza and broadcast on PA Television:

“On another occasion, Sheikh Madhi added: "Oh beloved of Allah… One of the Jews' evil deeds is what has come to be called 'the Holocaust,' that is, the slaughter of the Jews by Nazism. However, revisionist historians have proven that this crime, carried out against some of the Jews, was planned by the Jews' leaders, and was part of their policy…"


From a sermon by Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya delivered in the Sheikh Zayed bin Sultan Al-Nahyan Mosque in Gaza and broadcast on PA Television:

"O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists - are the Jews… They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them… The Jews are like a gas pedal - as long as you step on it with your foot, it doesn't move, but if you lift your foot from it, it hurts you and punishes you. This is the case of the Jews."


From a sermon by Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi, delivered in the Sheik 'Ijlin Mosque in Gaza and broadcast on PA television:

"All spears should be directed at the Jews, at the enemies of Allah, the nation that was cursed in Allah's book. Allah has described them as apes and pigs, the calf-worshipers, idol-worshipers…

“Whoever can fight them with his weapons, should go out to the battle; whoever can fight them with a machinegun, should go out; whoever can fight them with a sword or a knife, should go out; whoever can fight them with his hands, should go out; This is our destiny…

“The Jews have exposed their fangs. Nothing will deter them, except the color of their filthy people's blood…”


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 29 June 2004 10:27 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lagatta:
[QB]I think the very grave human rights violations in such "failed states" as both Congos and Sudan deserve their own thread - the problem is that the problems are so dire that we don't even know what we can do to help people there.”

Well said, Lagatta.

As for what's to be done - in Sudan what's needed is a demand by the Security Council for an immediate stop to the atrocities, backed by a threat of immediate military intervention.

If anyone has not yet done so, e-mail our minister of foreign affairs, Bill Graham, and urge him to make stopping the atrocities in Sudan our number one priority at the UN.

His email is Graham.B@parl.gc.ca


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 29 June 2004 10:33 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
This is Joseph Goebbels territory.


Of course, you're referring to the material quoted by MEMRI


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 29 June 2004 10:58 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Racist hate propaganda does not appear in any legitimate Israeli media, because as in Canada and as in most liberal democracies, publishing hate propaganda is illegal.

I guess MyName needs the MEMRI version of Ha'aretz. Benny Morris in a Ha'aretz interview, January 9, 2004:

quote:
"There is a deep problem in Islam. It's a world whose values are different. A world in which human life doesn't have the same value as it does in the West, and in which freedom, democracy, openness and creativity are alien. A world that makes those who are not part of the camp of Islam fair game ... Therefore, the people we are fighting and the society that sends them have no moral inhibitions. If it obtains chemical or biological or atomic weapons, it will use them. If it is able, it will also commit genocide."

Furthermore, Morris says that the Palestinians are,

quote:
..."the barbarians who want to take our lives. The people the Palestinian society sends to carry out the terrorist attacks… At the moment, that society is in the state of being a serial killer. It is a very sick society. It should be treated the way we treat individuals who are serial killers."


But, I suppose such views aren't even considered hateful anymore, since something like 64% of the Israeli population supports "transfer"....

[ 29 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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Babbler # 3877

posted 30 June 2004 12:26 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with you Courage on your comment on the J-post the J-post is trash to keep English speaking Jews who don't know any better happy but certainly not on Haaretz. Personally I think Harretz is very good at showing the travesty that Israel is engaged in and about the conditions forced upon the Palestinians. Lets not forget about Amira Hass. And if you could read Hebrew you would see that the 2 really main stream news papers in Israel Yediot and Maariv are very similar to the Haaretz. Further more you won't find a fraction as many caricatures depicting Muslims or Arabs in Demonizing manor as you do Israeli or Jews or even Americans it often more then just cynicism as some hear think and say, And you find it both in the main stream Arab, European and other papers and media outlet. The only papers you find demonizing Arabs in similar ways are radically right wing which unless run by Jews depict Jews in equally demonizing manor as the Arabs. So basically there is only 2 things to conclude from this one there is more hate for Jews then Arabs (Could also be simply to the fact that there is that more many Arabs as compared to Jews) or People are just more afraid of depicting Arabs in such a manor because they are afraid of the repercussions (Fatwa) in which case something really needs to be said about free speech. The only way to really resolve this is to do a serious and unbiased study of this. I will agree with you memri is certainly not a good source if you could come up with one or would be willing to take upon yourself this great task of doing an in-depth, accurate, unbiased study like this and not just nit pick quotes as most people including myself do then that would be great and I think we'd all be a little surprised. I sadly do not have the time or resources to do such a study.


I'd also like to comment that the survey that concluded that 64% of Israeli's support transfer. I don't think it could have been too accurate considering barley over a 1000 people were interviewed for it. I don't think 1000 is a good sample out of 6 million.

And to MyName I'd like say I don't think your comparison of Chomsky to the fanatic you mentioned is valid. I think you usually Chomsky is quite accurate in most of his critiques. The only huge flaw with Chomsky is that he doesn't bother enough with critiquing others in the same manor.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 30 June 2004 12:38 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While JPost is not my cup of tea, it is not a racist rag. That Courage would point to both JPost and Ha'aretz as such only points to the fact that he/she is so blinded by his/her animus towards anything Israeli that all Israeli material is branded with a hateful heart.

As I have said before, I consider myself pro-Israeli not anti-Palestinian. Courage is shamelessly anti-Israeli. To so dislike an entire society as does Courage is terribly sad.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 30 June 2004 12:57 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't see you condemning Benny Morris's attitude problem.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 30 June 2004 08:04 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
I don't see you condemning Benny Morris's attitude problem.
I have done so when this came up in a previous thread. I also reminded people that this is the same historian who had been seen by many on the left as one of the new progressive "revisionist" historians. He especially won cudos from the left for his analysis of the 1948 War of Independance.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 30 June 2004 09:47 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*unplonk*

Courage's point wasn't that Ha'aretz was a racist rag, but that one could selectively clip stories and quotes to make it seem like a racist rag. The same holds for the Post, except that you wouldn't have to hunt so hard through the pages of the Post in order to demonize it. MEMRI is accused of doing just this sort of thing with 'mainstream' papers from Islamic countries. Once again, I implore the pampheleteers on this forum to read for comprehension.

*replonk*

I quite like Ha'aretz, although I do engage in selective clipping. I usually only post stories written by the leftists and human rights journalists in their employ. I have yet to see such reporters working for the Post.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 30 June 2004 10:26 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The issue is not just the selective clipping the issue is what is considered main stream. The J-post is hardly a main stream Israeli News Paper 90% of Israeli's Read or Yediot or Maariv which a side for the fact that they are more colorful and Graphic is both quite similar to Haaretz.

And as I said, I don't believe you have to search as hard in main stream news papers out in the middle-east outside Israel for racist anti-Israel or anti-Semitic remarks, as you do in Israel for anti-Arab racist remarks, And not only in the Middle East but a lot in Europe and around the globe. I really do find some of the things people consider cynicism actually quite demonic and hateful.

The best example is caricature of Sharon eating Babies in Britain's independent

This is more then cynicism

[ 30 June 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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Babbler # 1962

posted 30 June 2004 12:28 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It may be of interest to note that the editorial cartoon portrays Ariel Sharon as Kronos, the father of Zeus in Greek mythology.

Link to image of original painting

Do with this what you will, your mileage may vary.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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Babbler # 3807

posted 30 June 2004 01:33 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why is the above cartoon antisemitic? Because it criticizes Israel?

Terry Mosher once did a cartoon of Idi Amin eating people. Was that anti-Black?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 30 June 2004 03:28 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
al'Qa why am I not surprised that you would ask this question?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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Babbler # 3980

posted 30 June 2004 04:10 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
*unplonk*

Courage's point wasn't that Ha'aretz was a racist rag, but that one could selectively clip stories and quotes to make it seem like a racist rag. The same holds for the Post, except that you wouldn't have to hunt so hard through the pages of the Post in order to demonize it. MEMRI is accused of doing just this sort of thing with 'mainstream' papers from Islamic countries. Once again, I implore the pampheleteers on this forum to read for comprehension.

*replonk*


Thank you. My point was also to demonstrate that the Israeli laws against 'hate speech' that MyName avers to are apparently not in play when it comes to Benny Morris saying that Palestinians and/or Muslims are basically just a society of barbarian hate-mongerers out to kill and destroy everything we (re: Jews) hold dear. Apparently such comments fly under the 'hate speech' radar in Israel and are fully accepted withing mainstream (they appeared in Ha'aretz and Morris is a reknowned academic) discourse.

Secondly, my intention was to provide an answer to Macabee's rhetorical question: "Do you honestly believe that Ha'aretz or even the Jerusalem Post would print such racist drivel?"

The answer is clearly, and resoundingly: yes.

So then, Macabee: rather than busying yourself with your usual adolescent ad hominem attacks, could you please demonstrate exactly where it was that I:

A) Said that Ha'aretz and the Jerusalem Post were 'racist rags'.

B) Demonstrated an animus toward ALL of Israeli society.

These are the assertions you have made. Would you care to back your slander?

[ 30 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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Babbler # 3807

posted 30 June 2004 04:25 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
al'Qa why am I not surprised that you would ask this question?

There are so many possible ways to answer that question.

I'll maintain a sense of decorum, however, and refrain.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 30 June 2004 04:47 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
why am I not surprised

Ah, Mac -- can we just retire this locution on babble?

Promise: we'll get a T-shirt and print that question on it, real nice and all, and then we'll have a proper ceremony and retire it to the babble Hall of Fame. Ok?

And you won't write it any more? Ok?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 30 June 2004 05:18 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Only if i get the t-shirt
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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Babbler # 3980

posted 30 June 2004 06:10 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
I'd also like to comment that the survey that concluded that 64% of Israeli's support transfer. I don't think it could have been too accurate considering barley over a 1000 people were interviewed for it. I don't think 1000 is a good sample out of 6 million.

Polling is done using such small samples all the time. Statistics research has shown a reasonable accuracy even with such small samples as long as the selection process is random enough. That said, the way in which the question(s) is phrased can make a huge difference to the result. While I'm not privy to the survey results for analysis, the poll was carried out by academic researchers at the University of Haifa and not by - for instance - a media outlet. Moreover, the results were rather uncritically published by the (for some) feckless Ha'aretz, so they too have added their legitimacy to the results.

quote:
And to MyName I'd like say I don't think your comparison of Chomsky to the fanatic you mentioned is valid. I think you usually Chomsky is quite accurate in most of his critiques. The only huge flaw with Chomsky is that he doesn't bother enough with critiquing others in the same manor.

No one is suprised if an Orthopedic Surgeon doesn't do Brain Surgery, so why is it that historians and academics (usually dissidents) in the humanities are expected to do everything all at once? And why is it that in the case of Israel and the Palestinians this criticism is only levelled at critics of Israel and never at its supporters? Why do we never hear this criticism levelled at those historians whose acumen has only been directed at uncritical Israeli and Zionist history? Strange indeed. Why doesn't Efraim Karsh have to speak out on Tibet? Or on the Sudan, or on the Congo? How can his selective praise continue? He must have a fetish with Israel or some other problem....

And frankly, this criticism is an argumentative fallacy. It doesn't go to the truth of Chomsky's assertions and is merely an unnecessary ad hominem attack.

And on your comments about Syria - do some reading on the matter. The Syrians have not killed anywhere near the number of Lebanese and/or Palestinians as Israel has in the past few years. Your claim that you 'wouldn't be suprised' if Syria was behind water diversions is both a) unsubstantiated opinion and b) comparing apples to oranges.

To compare the small-scale attempts of Lebanese and/or Palestinian militia (clearly they haven't been successful in any meaningful way) to control the flow of the Jordan into Israel to the large-scale infrastructure employed by Israel to siphon water from the natural springs in the hills of the West Bank to Israel is a joke. A big f*ing joke.

That's like saying that if I stole a sip from your glass that it's just like stealing a tanker truck full of water...

And frankly this is just another absurd attempt to eek out some moral highground by comparing Israel to those saints in Damascus. And here I thought they were terrible....

And as for the rest:

quote:
And the only reasons the Syrians to day won't divert water with Israel is because Israel is somewhat friends with Turkey who would divert from the Syrians at the other end.

Pure speculation. Complete and utter balderdash.

quote:
As it is Israel is in a tough enough situations and has to buy water from Turkey.

Oh, that's just too bad. You mean to say that they can't get enough water even though they are stealing billions of litres a year from the WB? Having travelled to Israel, there is no water shortage. Running water can be found virtually anywhere and bottled water is common and not overly expensive. Compare this to the West Bank.

quote:
Restrict movement or curfews??? Sure if anyone does or says anything that is not inline with the Syrian government their killed immediately.

Entirely false.

[ 30 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 01 July 2004 11:33 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
It’s interesting that the Darfur crisis is mostly being ignored, not just here.. in Canada, on Babble ... but throughout the world. Here’s a taste of an op-ed piece re. the Arab media’s indifference to the Darfur crisis, published yesterday Al-Sharq Al-Awsat…


"The Death of 300,000 People."
by Abd Al-Rahman Al-Rashed (the former editor of Al-Sharq Al-Awsat)

"They are not the victims of Israeli or American aggression; therefore, they are not an issue for concern...

"Is the life of 1,000 people in western Sudan less valuable, or is a single killed Palestinian or Iraqi of greater importance, merely because the enemy is Israeli or American? According to estimates by U.N. delegations inspecting what is happening in the Darfur region, 300,000 Sudanese are in danger of liquidation because of the ongoing war there…

"As for Arab intellectuals who see nothing in the world but the Palestinian and the Iraqi causes, and who consider any blood not spilled in conflicts with foreigners to be cheap and its spilling justifiable – they are intellectual accomplices in the crime….”


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 01 July 2004 11:59 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ahem.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 02 July 2004 02:51 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*cough*
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 02 July 2004 12:50 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks,guys.

That's just my point. The recent thread has 2 postings - both by the same person.

The thread you guys posted to has 6 postings total.

That's what I call "mostly ignored."


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 02 July 2004 12:53 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And not a single posting in either of them by you. Imagine. Perhaps you would like to champion the cause. I will support you.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 02 July 2004 01:03 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While you're at it, MyName, there's a thread about Uzbekistan, whose strategic importance in the current so-called war on terror I'm sure you recognize, going begging in the Rest of the World forum.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 02 July 2004 11:17 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
Here's a letter you could use as a model to urge Canada to more action. It's updated to take in most recent events.
But by all means, compose your own. Letters that are mere copies don't count for much - and note that actual letters carry far more weight than an e-mail. You don't even need postage. but if you don't have time, just copy and e-mail. It's better than nothing...


June 3, 2004

Minister of Foreign Affairs
Bill Graham
House of Commons
Parliament Buildings
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada
K1A 0A6


Dear Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham,

I am writing in regard to the on-going atrocities in Darfur, Sudan.

I urge you to make stopping these atrocities Canada’s most urgent foreign affairs objective.

I urge you to exert our strongest effort at the UN to have the Security Council demand the Sudanese government immediately disarm the Janjaweed and immediately put a stop to the atrocities.

I urge you to pledge Canadian troops for a UN-led force in Sudan and to urge that such a force be immediately dispatched.

I urge you to commend the U.S. on the actions it has taken thus far in this crisis and to urge it to even stronger diplomatic action and also to urge the U.S. to pledge troops.

I urge you to commend Yemen on its offer to contribute to a UN force in Sudan. I also urge you to expend whatever goodwill Canada has earned from other countries with an Islamic majority to urge them to follow Yemen’s example and, in general, to lead the world in stopping these atrocities. Fellow Muslim countries would seem most likely to be able to influence Sudan. Also, with Muslim nations leading the way, such an intervention could not be portrayed as a Western attack on Islam.

But above all I urge immediate action.
On the ten-year anniversary of the Rwandan genocide, you made an excellent speech in the UN. You warned that the world community has not yet learned the hard lessons of the Rwanda genocide.

You said that the UN must be able to act quickly to save innocent lives and that the UN has a duty to protect the innocent even if governments are perpetrating the violence.

Minister Graham, it is time to act on your words and to act quickly.

Thank you.

Yours truly,


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged

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