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Author Topic: Poll: 64% of Israeli Jews support encouraging Arabs to leave
WingNut
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posted 22 June 2004 01:03 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A University of Haifa poll released Monday reveals that a majority of the Jewish public in Israel - 63.7 percent - believes that the government should encourage Israeli Arabs to emigrate from Israel.


To the bantus ...

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 22 June 2004 01:20 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But really! Racist attitudes are in a vanishingly small minority among the population!

(And if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you to the magical land of Atlantis)


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 June 2004 02:04 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why am I not surprised?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 22 June 2004 02:39 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's the article in question, from Tuesday's Ha'aretz.

It gets worse:

quote:
The majority of Jewish respondents, 55.3 percent, said Israeli Arabs endangered national security, while 45.3 percent of those polled said they supported revoking Israeli Arabs' right to vote and hold political office.

About one-quarter of the Jewish public said they would consider voting for an ultra-nationalist party like the outlawed Kach if such a party was to run in the next elections, the survey revealed.


I'm not really surprised either. Just depressed.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 22 June 2004 02:55 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is indeed depressing. It is simply another sign that Israel is becoming dangerously insular and self-absorbed as its population perceives the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be ever more intractable and less amenable to rational discussion. In the process, simplistic, extreme solutions such as simply kicking out anyone who looks like an Arab become attractive in preference to using the brains we humans all got born with.

It is not so different from Republicans in the United States shamelessly grabbing votes by blatantly trashing affirmative action and taking advantage of racist sympathies (See: Jesse Helms).

The danger here is that Sharon will present himself as a man who can give the Israelis a simple solution to a complicated problem, if only they will give him what he wants.

Already, Sharon has nearly unfettered access to television media, and can push his point of view any time he wants. The print and web media is not as bound to Sharon, but governments can always manufacture reasons for a state of emergency....

[ 22 June 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 22 June 2004 04:23 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Buddha taught that compassion is the mind of benevolence, rescuing and liberating ...without discrimination.

"No man is a true believer unless he desires for his fellow man that which he desires for himself." - Muhammed

"Love one another."

"I have come to set the world on fire." - Jesus of Nazareth

"Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long long year stolen many man's soul and faith
I was around when Jesus Christ had His moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate washed his hands and sealed His fate
Pleased to meet you hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you is the nature of my game
Stuck around St. Petersburg when I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the Tzar and his ministers, Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank held a gen'rals rank when the blitzkrieg raged and the bodies stank
Pleased to meet you hope you guess my name. Oh yeah" - The Rolling Stones

[ 22 June 2004: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 22 June 2004 04:29 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry Fidel: None of the above applies to this.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 22 June 2004 04:40 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Sorry Fidel: None of the above applies to this.

What makes you say that, Cueball ?.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 June 2004 08:35 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am very disheartened by this poll. In trying to understand why there has been such a significant change amongst Israelis I noted this explanation from the article cited:

quote:
Research associate Dr. Dafna Kaneti-Nissim said the poll showcases a documented world-wide phenomenon in which people who feel threatened tend to develop hostility toward minorities living among them.

"The public identifies the Israeli-Arab sector with the threat of terror," Kaneti-Nissim said. "The foreign workers are perceived as an economic threat, despite the fact that they do not endanger the jobs of most Israelis."


No excuse but hopefully a recognition that much work must be done to stem this tide. Peace and a two-state solution where both Palestinains and Israelis can live peacefully side by side remains the only viable solution.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 June 2004 10:03 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel will only ever allow Palestinians to live in Bantus. There will never be a two state solution. If I am wrong, Israel will completely withdraw from both Gaza and the West Bank. But their intention is to turn Gaza into a huge prison camp while expanding settlements in the West Bank.

No offence, but at what time do you stop making excuses for a race based state?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 22 June 2004 10:11 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course. Fear. Who, living in the Middle East right now, couldn't be feeling afraid? Maybe Israelis are not as afraid as Palestinians must be, but they are obviously afraid.

Which is why a settlement must come from and be mediated by others, and above all NOT by the others who have most recently made the troubles worse, the USians.

quote:

I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.
-- W.H. Auden, September 1, 1939

From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 June 2004 10:53 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Israel will only ever allow Palestinians to live in Bantus. There will never be a two state solution. If I am wrong, Israel will completely withdraw from both Gaza and the West Bank. But their intention is to turn Gaza into a huge prison camp while expanding settlements in the West Bank.

No offence, but at what time do you stop making excuses for a race based state?


The above is for those who continue to look at the dark side . Israel is not a race-based state. All citizens despite their racial or religious backround are treated equally by Israeli law.

In fact even the leadership of the PA recognizes the intrinsic and necessary character of Israel as a Jewish state (see corresponding thread in this topic area).

[ 22 June 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 June 2004 11:03 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Really? When was the last time the olive trees of a Jewish family were bulldozed or a Jewish family was evicted form the home they have lived in for generations to make way for a Palestinian family?

There is no equality and to claim there is is to further humilaite the victims of Israeli race based policies.

quote:
In the course of time, following US President George W. Bush's presentation of his vision of a Palestinian state, Sharon, who by then had become prime minister, termed this idea (which in private conversations he used to compare to the "Bantustan" model of apartheid South Africa) "transportation contiguity." Such semantic exercises serve Sharon in bridging the gap between his aspiration that Israel hold on to at least half the West Bank, the international consensus that the Palestinians deserve an independent state, and Israel's demographic interests.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=5453


And still we refuse to acknowledge the truth, eh?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 22 June 2004 11:11 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good God

I've been on this site for about a year and I have studiously avoided this forum because there is just no middle ground.

I have to ask this: Are you all masochists? These threads have no compromise, no agreements. It's just pro-Israel and pro-Palestine.

I'm pretty sure that if you were in the same room, you'd (royal you, no personal comments implied to specific posters) each take turns plugging your ears with your fingers and droning "la-la-la" when the others are speaking.

[ 22 June 2004: Message edited by: HeywoodFloyd ]


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 June 2004 11:16 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Really? When was the last time the olive trees of a Jewish family were bulldozed or a Jewish family was evicted form the home they have lived in for generations to make way for a Palestinian family?

There is no equality and to claim there is is to further humilaite the victims of Israeli race based policies.

And still we refuse to acknowledge the truth, eh?


I despise those actions but realize they occur in the context of a terrible war on terrorism. Israeli citizens have equal rights under Israeli law,be they Muslim, Christian, Palestinian, etc

Sadly those under occupation are treated horribly. They are by definition stateless. That is why a Palestinian state existing in peace side by side with their other neighbours is an absolute necessity


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 22 June 2004 11:21 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
HF: Babble is ridiculously civilized compared to, say, the USENET forums on this topic (USENET is truly the crime-ridden slum of the internet) or any other Internet forum where the Mideast is discussed from both sides. Here at least we make a pretense of a progressive will.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 22 June 2004 11:28 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When polls like this are released, I cling to the hope that Macabee is correct when he asserts that Israel is a democracy. Democracies, by their nature, must go to all lengths to protect minority populations from discrimination and mob rule. Unfortunately, Israel's conduct in the occupied territories continually erodes this hope.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 22 June 2004 11:29 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Aha, Mac. I see. So once people have a state, then we can begin to treat them as human beings. Until they do, it is permitted to treat them inhumanely.

And Heywood: So if the linchpin international confrontation of our times, the one that affects the lives of every other human being on earth, seems to you so beneath your elevated sense of self-importance, why don't you just go back to all those elevated discussions about the current election, about Stephen Harper's views on art and child pornography, eg, and keep your bluidy sanctimonious superiority to yourself?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 June 2004 11:35 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The report's authors accused authorities, primarily the police and legal system, for being responsible for the climate of violence and racism against Arab citizens. This responsibility ranges from direct actions such as illegal and unjustified police shootings of Arab citizens to a tendency for the police and courts to relate forgivingly to displays of racism against Arabs by private citizens and public figures, the report says.


src: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/434087.html


quote:
The following four distinct classes of "citizenship" can be found within the present borders of Israel.

Class "A" citizenship : Jews.

Privileged access to the material resources of the State and the social as well as the welfare services of the State. Are able to utilize the 93 per cent of pre-1967 Israel, controlled by the Land Agency. Note that no-one can actually purchase the Agency land and that it is leased to Jews only.

Class "B" citizenship : Non Jews/Arabs.

Taxpayers and citizens with voting rights. Are denied the right to utilize the 93 per cent of pre-1967 Israel controlled by the Land Agency. They are also denied equal access to water and social and welfare services. Are generally not permitted to serve in the military which means they are automatically denied the many social and welfare services available to those who complete compulsory (for Jews) military service.

Class "C" citizenship : Non Jews/Arabs.

Taxpayers and citizens with voting rights, but classified as "absentees". Comprises some 200,000 persons. Are denied the right to utilize property in 93 per cent of pre-1967 Israel. They are also denied equal access to water and social and welfare services. They have also been denied all rights to their own property (lands, houses, corporations, shares, bank accounts, bank safes, etc.) that they owned until confiscated by the Jewish state. This theft was made "legal" by the Absentees Property Law of 1950.

Class "D" citizenship : Non Jews/Arabs.

Taxpayers, but without voting rights. Comprises some 3,000,000 persons. Are also denied the right to utilize or buy property anywhere in pre-1967 Israel. Have no access to social and welfare services. Many (mostly those who once lived in pre-1967 Israel) have had all their property confiscated by the Jewish state without compensation and have been forced to live in ghettos spread throughout two areas that today resemble concentration camps.

Information From "Israel: An Apartheid State" (Zed Books, London and New Jersey, 1987) by Uri Davis.


Is the above incorrect or can anyone access any land and any resources and travel as freely as anyone else at any time? Or is it correct?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 22 June 2004 11:39 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So Mishabe can find understanding in the Israeli reactions because they feel threathened . . . yet, does it ever cross his mind how the Palestinians must feel? Is their reaction also not understandable ? Given that they are threathened at a rate of at least 3 to 1, then one could argue the Palestinians should receive 3 times as much "understanding"!

But, no . . . Israel is supposedly a "democracy" (a racist democracy?) while Palestine is a terrorist organization!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 June 2004 11:40 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have noticed Heywood joins in the harmonic chorus of gay-bashing over on FD.

He must miss that warm fuzzy feeling of togetherness when he reads babble.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 June 2004 12:01 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So if the linchpin international confrontation of our times, the one that affects the lives of every other human being on earth, seems to you so beneath your elevated sense of self-importance, why don't you just go back to all those elevated discussions about the current election, about Stephen Harper's views on art and child pornography, eg, and keep your bluidy sanctimonious superiority to yourself?


I don't believe that. It is important to end this conflict, and the suffering on both sides has been terrible, but I wouldn't say that it's as important to us as the millions starving in Africa, or the power struggle currently going on between China and the US. Iraq is more vital at this point.

[ 22 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 22 June 2004 12:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's fair, CMOT -- but are you telling me that you do not see the connections among all those situations?

I do think that there are reasons why everyone is focused on the Middle East right now, rather than, eg, on the horror that moves my heart most, what is happening in Burma, or in all the -stans.

You see no connection between Bush in Iraq and Bush in Palestine?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 June 2004 12:17 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Aha, Mac. I see. So once people have a state, then we can begin to treat them as human beings. Until they do, it is permitted to treat them inhumanely.


To be fair Skdadl, I never said that. Why must you keep insinuating things I have never said? It is immoral and unfair.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 June 2004 12:22 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know why anyone would assume that if Palestinians are all transported into Bantustans and someone calls them a "State", that peace would suddenly result.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 22 June 2004 12:26 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have noticed Heywood joins in the harmonic chorus of gay-bashing over on FD.

Before I send to you a flock of birds, I will ask: "que?"


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 22 June 2004 12:37 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Heywood, go be a narcissist somewhere else.

This thread is for people who want to think about other people.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 22 June 2004 01:04 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, Macabee. Now that we've seen that there are, in fact, four classes of citizens, not all on an equal footing, and now that you've seen that your assertions of racist and insular attitudes being a vanishing minority blown away by the latest set of facts, will you finally face facts instead of spinning fantasies in the air?

Incidentally, I find it highly patronizing to pat Israeli-Arabs on the head, collectively, and say "you poor dears, we won't make you shoot at your fellows" and use that as the justification for exempting them from mandatory military service.

What if the real reason is to keep knowledge of weaponry and tactics out of the hands of a minority in Israel who would otherwise have the ability to do something about their fellows getting thumped every day?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 June 2004 02:14 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
So, Macabee. Now that we've seen that there are, in fact, four classes of citizens, not all on an equal footing, and now that you've seen that your assertions of racist and insular attitudes being a vanishing minority blown away by the latest set of facts, will you finally face facts instead of spinning fantasies in the air?

?


I do not know where this information comes from.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 22 June 2004 02:20 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It says right at the bottom of the post:

Information From "Israel: An Apartheid State" (Zed Books, London and New Jersey, 1987) by Uri Davis.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
The_Calling
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posted 22 June 2004 03:13 PM      Profile for The_Calling   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If it is wrong, set the record straight Macabee. If it is veracious, just admit it.
From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 22 June 2004 04:48 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
I do not know where this information comes from.

Way to not read a thread at all!

[ 22 June 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 June 2004 05:05 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The_Calling:
If it is wrong, set the record straight Macabee. If it is veracious, just admit it.
I will get the information to set the record straight.

What is correct is the fact that discriminatory legal structures do exist in certain parts of public life in Israel. In this regard the JNF (Jewish National Fund) which deals with most of the public land does restrict its use and development. These restrictions date back to the pre-state time when land was acquired and bought through the JNF in Palestine. Arabs are atill excluded from buying and developing this land. This matter remains before the Israeli Supreme Court for a decision.

However let me reprint a supposition asked by one of Israel's more renowned leftist thinkers (though on some issues I am sure there are many here that will disagree with him) Shalom Lappin. He is, as some will know, a professor at King's college London and a long time supporter of the Israeli Peace movement.

quote:
Assume the following utopian scenario. An enlightened liberal democratic government comes to power in Israel and reaches a peace agreement with the Palestinians: a full withdrawal to (the equivalent of) the 1967 borders and the establishment of a Palestinian state. This government then proceeds to eliminate all discriminatory legislation and institute a full separation of religion and state. It implements reforms to integrate the Arab minority into the social and economic mainstream of the country. Israel would still be a Jewish country in that it would have a decisive (80 percent) Jewish majority, its culture and history would continue to reflect the experiences and concerns of this majority, and its first language would remain Hebrew.

Under these conditions, would those who reject Israel as a Jewish polity still continue to do so?

[ 22 June 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 June 2004 05:54 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You see no connection between Bush in Iraq and Bush in Palestine?


Yes, I do. But I don't think the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is the reason why the Americans are encountering so much opposition in Iraq. The 50 years war is a symptom of the problem rather than the problem itself.
If the war ends and peace comes to the holy land, instability in the region maybe reduced but it will still be there. Why? Because the US would still be in the Middle East, propping up pro Western dictators like Assad and Mubarak in order to get oil. If Israel never existed, people like bin Laden would still hate the Americans because of their influence in the Arab countries. The issue is not whether a peaceful resolution in this particular conflict can be found, the issue is whether we can reduce our dependence on foreign oil supplies.
Focusing on Israel to the exclusion of everything else is just a distraction from the bigger issue.
I'm interested in the region and in the war because I have romantic notions about Israel fulfilling its potential as a socialist state, not because I believe it is a "linchpin conflict"


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 June 2004 06:21 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Under these conditions, would those who reject Israel as a Jewish polity still continue to do so?

Who would object? But that is why it is utopian, right?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 22 June 2004 07:50 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Who would object? But that is why it is utopian, right?


So, in fact, it is not the idea of a Jewish state that concerns you?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 22 June 2004 08:31 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But you see, it wouldn't be a Jewish state, it would be a state that happens to be primarily Jewish.

Let's put it this way: I have no objection to Ireland being a primarily Catholic state, which being so, has laws that reflect the catholic character of the overwhelming majority of its citizenship. I would have an objection to Ireland being a catholic state.

The key is here: "This government then proceeds to eliminate all discriminatory legislation and institute a full separation of religion and state."


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 22 June 2004 09:08 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
What is correct is the fact that discriminatory legal structures do exist in certain parts of public life in Israel.[ 22 June 2004: Message edited by: Macabee

Earlier in this thread:

quote:
All citizens despite their racial or religious backround are treated equally by Israeli law.

Flip-floppin' like a landed fish....

[ 22 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 22 June 2004 11:23 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
“The following four distinct classes of "citizenship" can be found within the present borders of Israel.”

You’re having me on, right? No one here is stupid enough to believe Israeli law defines 4 classes of citizenship, are they?

I think the quality of this info can be judged by the final paragraph which defines that occupants of the occupied territories as citizens and says they live in “areas that today resemble concentration camps.”

Someone who asserts that the occupied territories resemble concentration camps is obviously either a neo-Nazi or on acid or likely both.

Also, the West Bank and Gaza are occupied territories; therefore, the residents are not citizens – unless of course you’re arguing that in fact these territories are legal parts of Israel…? In that case, of course, the residents would be citizens, be entitled to vote and to be appointed to the Israeli Supreme Court, etc.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 22 June 2004 11:48 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
3 classes of citizenship can be distinguished in apartheid Ontario:

Class 1: People who can afford to send their kids to private schools (or who can’t afford it, but do it anyway).

Class 2: Catholics who send their kids to fully funded Catholic schools.

Class 3: People who are forced to send their kids to crumbling, underfunded public schools that resemble concentration camps.

End apartheid in Ontario! Demand separation of Catholic Church and state!


… or maybe it’s possible that while they’re not a perfect democracies, Ontario and Israel aren’t apartheid South Africa, let alone Nazi Germany.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 June 2004 12:06 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dear Neo-Nazi idiot, while I would agree that economic discrimination abounds and should be addressed, anyone can can cross economic lines if they should become so fortunate.

In a race based system, an Arab, for example, cannot become a Jew or, under South Africa's apartheid, a black could never be a white.

I realize this is very complicated and will take many months before you can comprehend it, but do try. It will be worth it. Oh, and mushrooms are a far cleaner high. Stop doing acid, for your own good.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2004 12:09 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Would everybody in this thread (including the Pro Israel forces) stop using Nazi analogys? They are extremely counterproductive.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 23 June 2004 12:27 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, CMOT.

You're quite correct. When someone such as the nutbars on acid that Wingnut quoted equate Israel with Nazi Germany, they place themselves outside the bounds of reasoned discourse.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 23 June 2004 12:31 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
Dearest no-nuts,

In Ontario, Catholics and no other religion get their own school system. This doesn't mean that Ontario law defines two classes of citizens, any more than the flaws in Israel's democracy mean that Israeli law defines two classes of citizens.

Is my point now simple enough for you to follow?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 June 2004 12:36 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No it is totaly irrelvant to the facts on the ground. Surely, there is less bias in entrenchment of one religious system in the context of a secular state, and that in a relgious state. Would you have us believe that there was not a problem with Islamic teaching under the Taliban.

Your arguement lacks context and consistency.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 23 June 2004 06:02 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When someone such as the nutbars on acid that Wingnut quoted equate Israel with Nazi Germany, they place themselves outside the bounds of reasoned discourse.

Wow, what a zinger!

Uri Davis

quote:
Uri Davis is a Jewish citizen of Israel, but he prefers to describe himself as a Palestinian Jew -- he was born in Jerusalem in 1943, when Palestine was still undivided and his autobiography, published in 1995, is entitled "Crossing the Border: an autobiography of an anti-Zionist Palestinian Jew".

(snip)

He is an anthropologist who, in addition to a PhD in Philosophical Anthropology, also holds a BA in Arabic and Philosophy and an MA in Philosophy. Dr. Davis is an honorary research fellow at the Institute for Middle Eastern and Islamic Studies (IMEIS) in the University of Durham (United Kingdom) and at the Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies (IAIS) in the University of Exeter (United Kingdom).

At the time this is being written (July 2002), Dr. Davis lives in Sakhnin, an Arab city in northern Israel. His choice of residence is indicative of his committment to a future in which all residents of Israel/Palestine will enjoy equal rights. It should be noted that, as a Jew, Dr. Davis is free to live anywhere in Israel, while there are many places in which his Arab neighbours in Sakhnin, would not, precisely because they are non-Jews, be allowed to live. Indeed, in an article on this site, Just an ordinary day in Sakhnin, Dr. Davis tells us that the city of Karmiel, located less than 20 minutes north of Sakhnin by car, was declared, on its establishment in 1964, as a place in which only Jews could live.


Google search string: "Uri Davis", first result selected, search time 0.27 seconds.

Feh.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 June 2004 07:15 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When someone such as the nutbars on acid that Wingnut quoted equate Israel with Nazi Germany

I didn't. But you just did.

And while a separate school system is an error of Canada's constitutional negotiations, and while Catholics in Ontario did once face discrimantory practices, there is no comparison in Ontario to the Apartheid race policies of Israel.

For anyone to suggest otherwise demonstartes two things: A) They acknowledge that Israel is a race based state and B) They know it is morally indefensible but will try anyway with absurd comparisons.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 June 2004 08:21 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I always believed that discrimination is discrimination.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 23 June 2004 11:17 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
Wingnut,

No, you didn't equate Israel with Nazi Germany; the nutbar you quoted did.

If you disagree with someone you quote, you should probably say so.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 23 June 2004 11:22 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
aroused,

You seem to be arguing the since Uri Davis is a professor, we should agree with everything he says.

Sorry, his comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany puts him beyond the pale of rational discussion, regardless of his academic credential.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 23 June 2004 11:38 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by WingNut:
[QB]
a separate school system is an error of Canada's constitutional negotiations[QB]

That would be my point. History accounts for Ontario's catholic school system.

Similarly, history accounts for many oddities in Israeli law. For example, most Arabs and Yeshiva students are excused from compulsorary military service. (Druze Arabs, of course, have always served in the IDF.)

In 1948, it was probably a good idea to excuse most Israeli Arabs and yeshiva students from military service. I think it was a bad idea to continue this policy to the present. Compulsorary military service for all Israeli citizens would have a unifying effect.

Of course, if Israel obliged all Arabs to perform military service, the usual suspects would be outraged, just as they're now outraged that Israel doesn't not compell Arabs into military service.

You refer to the "Apartheid race policies of Israel."

Ah, yes, apartheid Israel, the only country in the Middle East where Arabs can vote.

Maybe you should read up on apartheid before offering such absurd comparisons.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2004 12:13 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Similarly, history accounts for many oddities in Israeli law. For example, most Arabs and Yeshiva students are excused from compulsorary military service. (Druze Arabs, of course, have always served in the IDF.)


Christian Arabs serve in the IDF as well. The Druze haven't always served in the Israeli army. They asked to serve in the Israeli Armed Forces in 1958(I think)

The Lebanese vote in free elections.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2004 12:25 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Ah, yes, apartheid Israel, the only country in the Middle East where Arabs can vote.




Israeli Arabs also have a presence in the Knesset, although how much power the Arab parties have, I'm not sure.

Did the Afrikaner government in South Africa give the black population any political representation whatsoever?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 23 June 2004 01:48 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
CMOT,

Thanks for the correction on the Druze and the reminder that Christian Arabs also serve in the IDF.

No, blacks had no political representation in South Africa. In Israel, they vote, they serve in Parliament, they serve on the Supreme Court...

The comparison is absurd and is made only to imply that Israel has no legitimate existence.

It's not the sort of assertion made by someone with a genuine interest in peace.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 23 June 2004 01:51 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
Correction: I see my pronouns are getting away from me. I meant to say that in Israel, Arabs vote etc. (Blacks do, too, of course, but I don't think that even wingnut denies that.)
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 23 June 2004 03:19 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MyName:
[QB]Wingnut,

No, you didn't equate Israel with Nazi Germany; the nutbar you quoted did.


Actually, Davis does no such thing. Surely you know that the Nazi concentration camps are not the only concentration camps known in history.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 23 June 2004 03:23 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MyName:

Sorry, his comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany puts him beyond the pale of rational discussion, regardless of his academic credential.


Actually, you made the comparison. Davis did not mention Nazis in connection with the phrase "concentration camps". It is clear that you are not capable of reading a text without imparting your own self-serving interpretation. With your false premise in tow, you demonstrate your (usual) inability to participate in rational discussion.

Don't you have papers to be grading, professor?

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 23 June 2004 03:30 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ah, yes, apartheid Israel, the only country in the Middle East where Arabs can vote.

Egypt. Jordan. Syria. Lebanon.

Also, Israel is also the only country in the Middle East with nearly 3 million people under it's legal jurisdiction who are afforded virtually no rights whatsoever. They are effectively outside the law, but inside the state. Can you name another Middle East country with such a situation?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 June 2004 04:27 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The ignorance is striking.

In Apartheid South Africa they also had classes of citizens. Those of Asian descent, had more rights than those who were black, including particiption, however limited, in governemnt.

No one argued Israel's brand of Apartheid is identical to South Africa's. It is enough that it is a race based state which you acknowledge through your childish attempts to justify it.

Also, no Catholic in Ontario is forced to attend a separate school. And all Ontarians have equal access before the law and the right to freedom of speech and there are no people anywhere in Ontario who are imprisoned in open air concentration camps against their will.

To attempt to draw a parallel between the school system in Ontario and racism in Israel must be the stupidest thing I have come across in any mid-east discussion to date. And you are a professor? No wonder so many graduates lack critical thinking skills.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2004 04:45 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Egypt. Jordan. Syria. Lebanon.

Do you mean to say that all the leaders in those nations you mentioned were elected?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 23 June 2004 04:49 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:
[QB]

Davis did not mention Nazis in connection with the phrase "concentration camps".


Get real.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 23 June 2004 04:55 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Get real", MyName?

Well, I guess the only 'reality' in question here is the text of Uri Davis book containing the reference to "concentration camps" that was quoted above:

quote:
Taxpayers, but without voting rights. Comprises some 3,000,000 persons. Are also denied the right to utilize or buy property anywhere in pre-1967 Israel. Have no access to social and welfare services. Many (mostly those who once lived in pre-1967 Israel) have had all their property confiscated by the Jewish state without compensation and have been forced to live in ghettos spread throughout two areas that today resemble concentration camps.

Can you please show me the "real", fictitious, or other reference to Nazis in this quotation?

Thanks, professor...

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 23 June 2004 04:55 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Do you mean to say that all the leaders in those nations you mentioned were elected?


It was claimed by 'Professor' MyName that Israel was the only place in the Middle East where Arabs were able to vote. Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt also allow Arabs to vote.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2004 04:57 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Get real"

You didn't address the point that Courage made. Please do so in order that this discussion may continue in a rational way.

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 23 June 2004 05:13 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by WingNut:
[QB]”In Apartheid South Africa they also had classes of citizens."

Yes, they did. And in Israel they don't. If you believe otherwise, please produce the statute that delineates the different classes of citizens.

"It is enough that it is a race based state."

Except it obviously isn't.

"No one argued Israel's brand of Apartheid is identical to South Africa's."

A friend of mine is a Palestinian Israeli. He's a neuro-surgeon, visiting Canada on a fellowship. He received his education at some excellent schools in Israel, at the government's expense. I don't think that happened much under apartheid.

Indeed, since you acknowledge that in Israel Arabs vote, serve in parliament, and get appointed to the Supreme Court, it's absurd to speak of apartheid at all…. unless the purpose of this comparison is to argue that like apartheid South Africa, Israel has no right to exist.

On that point, I guess we disagree. I'm for peace between Israel and an independent Palestinian state. Peace requires mutual recognition.

It's passing strange that many Palestinians can bring themselves to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, but leftie-facists like yourself cannot.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2004 05:24 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It was claimed by 'Professor' MyName that Israel was the only place in the Middle East where Arabs were able to vote. Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt also allow Arabs to vote.

I think I see what your getting at. They can vote for their leaders in Egypt, Jordan and Syria, but the elections are always fixed in favor of the incumbent.(George Bush must be so jealous) Is that correct? I don't know a Whole hell of a lot about that particular aspect of Middle Eastern politics, most of what I know comes from articles by Robert Fisk.
From my perusal of this board, it would seem that the only fair elections in the Arab world take place in Lebanon. Are Al Qa'bong and Rufus wrong?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2004 05:34 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 23 June 2004 05:36 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MyName:
[QB][QUOTE]Originally posted by WingNut:
[QB]”In Apartheid South Africa they also had classes of citizens."

Yes, they did. And in Israel they don't. If you believe otherwise, please produce the statute that delineates the different classes of citizens.


A couple of problems with your argument, professor. First of all, you are arguing apples and oranges - in effect you have created yet another of your notorious strawman arguments. Davis' claim (and WingNut's) is not that there is a single Israeli black-letter law that defines four specific catagories of citizens. The claim is that the sum effect of certain Israeli laws and practices is a de facto seperation of those under Israel's jurisdiction into four distinct catagories. In other words, Davis has devised a theoretical scheme for explaining the phenomena of social/poltical division in Israel, he has not made a factual claim about the existence of specific "legal" catagories. BTW, your 'friend' falls into catagory B.

A better approach for you, professor, would be to show that the sum effect that Davis claims results from these laws and practices is not, in fact, the case.

I do note that all your qualifications below are addressed by Davis' original publication and that, regardless of the status of SOME Israeli Arabs, there are still many more who are not afforded this treatment and who are: a) actively discriminated against by Israeli law (such as the Land Law, or Absentees Property Law); b) systemically discriminated against through institutional and social practices; and c) left completely outside the law, despite the fact that Israel finds these people in its control and is obliged to extend them full citizenship rights under international law.

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 23 June 2004 05:38 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

I think I see what your getting at. They can vote for their leaders in Egypt, Jordan and Syria, but the elections are always fixed in favor of the incumbent.(George Bush must be so jealous) Is that correct? I don't know a Whole hell of a lot about that particular aspect of Middle Eastern politics, most of what I know comes from articles by Robert Fisk.
From my perusal of this board, it would seem that the only fair elections in the Arab world take place in Lebanon. Are Al Qa'bong and Rufus wrong?


The problem of the legitimacy of the elections, or the 'democratic process' (as some might put it) is irrelevent to the point of fact in question. My assertion was made merely to point out that MyName's claim was factually incorrect. The status of Israeli 'democracy' is also highly questionable when it comes to questions of legitimacy, universality of suffrage, etc. However, it is strictly true that some Arabs can vote in Israel.

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 June 2004 07:00 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is the practise of those without argument or faculty to resort to inventing arguments never made. For example:

quote:
it's absurd to speak of apartheid at all…. unless the purpose of this comparison is to argue that like apartheid South Africa, Israel has no right to exist.

In fact, I have argued since the day I arrived here, on babble, that Israel has every right to exist and in security. Even those who I have shared intense debate with must, at least, agree with that.

So why would this strange person who would claim to be an academic resort to lies and innuendo to advance his cause? My only supposition is because he knows I am right and only through lies to himself and others can he possibly justify the wrongs he would permit.

I remember my first encounter with racial politics. I was sitting in a class called International Relations, during my first year of college. I was young and not political at all. What I cared about was the next party. During the course of one class, the issue of Apartheid arose and a discussion ensued. I remember clearly one young man putting up his hand to speak. he explained he had just been for a visit to South Africa. He had the opportunity to travel with the army into black townships and he was here, now, to report that black South Africans prefered to live the way they did..That Apartheid was in their interests. He knew this from talking to his new friends in the military who brought him into the townships.

I relate this because from the position of privilege and power, it is often times very easy to see the oppressed as well served in their subservient roles. The British described slavery and subjugation of blacks as the "white man's burden" as though it was they who suffered under the oppression.

And reading the last post of my new friend, I couldn't help but be reminded of an old saying that would once bring about snide laughter. Perhaps rephrased for the present: "Some of my best friends are Palestinians."


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2004 07:39 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Some of my best friends are Palestinians."

Do we absolutely have to bring Nazi war criminals into this?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2004 07:50 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't understand Name. Why would you automatically assume that anyone who would make apartheid comparisons between South Africa and Israel is calling for the destruction of the Israeli state. I think it is important to criticize Israel. That way, we can figure out ways to improve the nation. If we ignore the problems it has, then we become complacent and do not notice when it is in deep trouble.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 June 2004 09:00 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Do we absolutely have to bring Nazi war criminals into this?

Huh?

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al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 June 2004 09:24 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why would you automatically assume that anyone who would make apartheid comparisons between South Africa and Israel is calling for the destruction of the Israeli state.


Don't assume that this is a genuine assumption.

It's a cheap debating tactic, as well as a fallacy.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 June 2004 09:28 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Huh?

I'll second that one!!

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2004 10:33 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Huh?


Sorry dude, it just looked like you were quoting Echman in that last post.
On second thought, this is an open forum. I'll stop playing language police.

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 23 June 2004 10:40 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Absolutley not.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2004 10:56 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Don't assume that this is a genuine assumption.

It's a cheap debating tactic, as well as a fallacy.



I like the slippery slope fallacy, I use it all the time, particularly when talking about labor relations, i.e. if you give the employer an inch, they will walk all over the Union. God, I'm a hypocrite

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 23 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 June 2004 11:40 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MyName:

It's passing strange that many Palestinians can bring themselves to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, but leftie-facists like yourself cannot.



"Leftie-facists[sic]"? That's quite a broad category!

I'll bet Wingy's a litterbug too.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 23 June 2004 11:56 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I daresay I don't think I've ever denied that Israel's existence should be taken as a starting point for further discussion of the peace process in that country and in the Occupied Territories.

While, as an atheist, I deny the validity of the original basis of the claim to Israel, that is not the same as opposing Israel's continued existence today.

May I propose a thought experiment?

What do you fellas think the reaction would be if a poll were published showing that 64% of English-Canadians supported nuking the bejeezus out of Quebec?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
MyName
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posted 26 June 2004 03:07 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
CMOT,
In some alternate universe, when Uri Davis refers to “concentration camps” he might not be referring to the Nazi camps.

In this universe, though, it’s generally the case that when people hear “concentration camps,” they think of the Nazi camps – unless the context makes it clear that some broader meaning is intended.

More importantly, anti-Israel propagandists have so continually asserted a comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany that in the context of an anti-Israeli piece, no other interpretation is really possible. (Hence, my comment, “Get real.”)

Of course it’s conceivable (however unlikely) that in the context of an anti-Israel diatribe a person might make a reference to concentration camps and not have the Nazi camps in mind. But if he wanted anyone to understand that, he’d have to actually say so.

In regards to Uri Davis, though, we don’t have to theorize. This person makes comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany almost every time he opens his mouth. For instance, this bit from Nov 2002….

“This war criminal leadership [of Israel] is hoping … it will be given an opportunity to complete today the crime against humanity of mass expulsion of the Palestinian people, begun and not completed in 1948 - and is mad enough to seriously attempt to carry this Nazi project out…

“There are people in the government of the state of Israel committed to the Nazi project of the mass expulsion of the Palestinian Arab people, and prepared to order the army to do what it takes, including genocide….”

I don’t think the term “self-hating Jew” applies to many people. Some Jewish kids (of whatever chronological age) adopt the antisemitic attitudes of their peer group. But this sort of Jewish antisemitism is just another example of peer group conformity.

The term “self-hating Jew” should be reserved for the kind of Jew who joined the Nazi party and perhaps for people like Uri Davis. You can’t read this guy without being struck by the pathological nature of his hatred for Israel. (Of course, some people share his hatred – and to them his pathology will feel familiar and natural.)

Does his hatred extend to Jews in general? I think so.

For one thing, Davis is a great fan of the myth of Zionist collaboration with the Nazis. Again, this is part of his project to tie Israel to Nazism. But, also, this particular myth of Zionist-Nazi collaboration very big among neo-Nazis and antisemites of all persuasions.

Davis walks like a Jew-hater, talks likes a Jew-hater and probably is a Jew-hater.

I will not be surprised if someday Davis takes his loathing to its logical conclusion and kills himself.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 June 2004 10:52 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nothing like a vicious antisemititc slur like the above to really get a debate going. What could more ant-semtic than asserting that a jew that speaks their mind on the issue of Israel and its policies in the negative is nothing less than an antisemite?

The 'self-hater' tag is extreme antisemtism at its most grotesque, limiting jewsish freedom to speak on the issue by attacking Jewish freedom to speak against Israel by slander those jews who do.

[ 28 June 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 28 June 2004 02:41 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Many (mostly those who once lived in pre-1967 Israel) have had all their property confiscated by the Jewish state without compensation

You know, in Canada we did that to the Japanese, and we had to own up to that gross moral failing and pay a chunk of change to those Japanese Canadians who were still alive in the 1980s.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 28 June 2004 08:54 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree and do you remember all the excuses comiing from different PMs of the day?

IMHO, there will be a compensation package and hopefully a full peace agreement that will enable both states to live peacefully as neighbours.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 28 June 2004 09:07 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
leftie-facists like yourself

This is a violation of babble policy.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 28 June 2004 09:23 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Agreed. And you can upgrade that to a warning from the moderator, MyName.

[ 28 June 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 29 June 2004 10:41 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Agreed. And you can upgrade that to a warning from the moderator, MyName.

Michelle, my sincere thanks for returning me to my senses. I confess I was annoyed at being called a "neo-Nazi idiot" by wingnut and stooped to replying in kind.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 29 June 2004 11:05 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, you didn't like that. Then maybe you should adhere to the golden rule and do unto others ...

The first person on this thread to use the word neo-nazi was you. And now you object? Jerk.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 29 June 2004 11:49 PM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
I think it is important to criticize Israel.

CMOT,
I think we mostly agree.
I'd like to make the distinction, though, that I believe it's important to criticize Israeli policies. For example, as I’ve already noted, I think excusing Yeshiva students and Muslim Arabs from compulsory military duties is a mistake (though clearly not racist).

I also think the policy of the Jewish National Fund of leasing land only to Jews is an anachronism and has become an injustice. But as already noted by Maccabee, the matter is before the Israeli courts, where it will probably be ruled illegal

It appears to me, though, that some posters here don’t make the distinction between criticizing Israeli policies and criticizing Israel. Instead they condemn Israel. Period. Condemning a state in its entirety seems to me to be a kissing cousin to racism.

The accusation that Israel is an “apartheid state” is a case in point. I don’t see how anyone who knows anything about apartheid South Africa can seriously make this comparison.

To repeat the most obvious points: Arabs in Israel vote in elections, run in elections and get elected to the Knesset. Arabs are also represented throughout the judicial system right up to the Supreme Court. Since Arabs and Jews contribute on the same footing to the systems that make the laws and judge their fairness, the apartheid comparison is simply ridiculous.

You ask, “Why would you automatically assume that anyone who would make apartheid comparisons between South Africa and Israel is calling for the destruction of the Israeli state?”

Good question. And I should not assume this. Wingnut says he thinks Israel has every right to exist, and I’m prepared to take him at his word.

What I should probably assume when I hear someone calling Israel an apartheid state is that he’s mindlessly repeating propaganda invented by someone else.

However, the point of this particular bit of propaganda is to assert through a fallacious comparison that, just as the apartheid South Africa was an illegitimate state, so also is Israel, and therefore it has no right to exist.

It’s unfortunate that Wingnut repeats it, apparently with so little understanding of either the nature of apartheid South Africa or the purpose of this anti-Israeli propaganda.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 30 June 2004 12:05 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You clearly read little and understand less.

Israeli Arabs face daily racism from having their homes invaded and seized to having their parties banned and their representatives arrested.

However, the treatment of Palestinians in Israel proper, constantly threatened with expulsion, is not Apartheid. That more properly resembles the American south before the civil rights movement.

Israel's apartheid is the West Bank and Gaza. Close to three million people are held hostage by racist Israeli policies that will allow some people, who are Jewish, to carry arms, kill, and seize the lands and resources of others who happen to be Palestinian.

Just like Soth Africa, Israel proposes the establishment of homelands, neither free, soveriegn and under constant threat of military incursion and assualt and complete with travel passes and cosntant searches.

Macabee supports the two state solution but Israel constantly undermines the two state solution with continued settlement expansion in the West Bank and now with the support of George W. Bush, a permanent presence in the West Bank.

What Israel is proposing is a greater state of Israel that encompasses the West Bank but carves out sections of deep poverty populated by people wholly dependent on the generosity of their oppressors without any hope of ever developing a true, independenet and viable state.

That is Apartheid.

And rather than pretend this is all propanda, why not work for true equality for all Israelis including those on the West Bank? What is it about a free, democratic and liberal democracy of Jews and Arabs that scares you so much?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 30 June 2004 12:12 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
maybe you should adhere to the golden rule and do unto others ...

Good advice, Wingnut.

And now, please notice that I did not call you a neo-Nazi. I suggested that Uri Davis must be a neo-Nazi or on acid or both. You might argue that my characterization of Davis is over the top, but you can’t expect me to take someone seriously when he compares Israel to both apartheid South Africa and to Nazi Germany.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4668

posted 30 June 2004 12:18 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MyName:

However, the point of this particular bit of propaganda is to assert through a fallacious comparison that, just as the apartheid South Africa was an illegitimate state, so also is Israel, and therefore it has no right to exist.

Critics of apartheid South Africa seldom if ever said that the state shouldn't exist, merely that it shouldn't practise apartheid. South Africa exists today, it has simply undergone a dramatic social change. The same could happen with Israel, given the chance.


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 30 June 2004 12:21 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He is not the only one who likens Israeli poliices in the West Bank and Gaza to Apartheid.

quote:
In our struggle against apartheid, the great supporters were Jewish people. They almost instinctively had to be on the side of the disenfranchised, of the voiceless ones, fighting injustice, oppression and evil. I have continued to feel strongly with the Jews. I am patron of a Holocaust centre in South Africa. I believe Israel has a right to secure borders.

What is not so understandable, not justified, is what it did to another people to guarantee its existence. I've been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about.

On one of my visits to the Holy Land I drove to a church with the Anglican bishop in Jerusalem. I could hear tears in his voice as he pointed to Jewish settlements. I thought of the desire of Israelis for security. But what of the Palestinians who have lost their land and homes?

I have experienced Palestinians pointing to what were their homes, now occupied by Jewish Israelis. I was walking with Canon Naim Ateek (the head of the Sabeel Ecumenical Centre) in Jerusalem. He pointed and said: "Our home was over there. We were driven out of our home; it is now occupied by Israeli Jews."

My heart aches. I say why are our memories so short. Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history so soon? Have they turned their backs on their profound and noble religious traditions? Have they forgotten that God cares deeply about the downtrodden?

Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured.

The military action of recent days, I predict with certainty, will not provide the security and peace Israelis want; it will only intensify the hatred.

Israel has three options: revert to the previous stalemated situation; exterminate all Palestinians; or - I hope - to strive for peace based on justice, based on withdrawal from all the occupied territories, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state on those territories side by side with Israel, both with secure borders.

We in South Africa had a relatively peaceful transition. If our madness could end as it did, it must be possible to do the same everywhere else in the world. If peace could come to South Africa, surely it can come to the Holy Land?

My brother Naim Ateek has said what we used to say: "I am not pro- this people or that. I am pro-justice, pro-freedom. I am anti- injustice, anti-oppression."

But you know as well as I do that, somehow, the Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticise it is to be immediately dubbed anti-semitic, as if the Palestinians were not semitic. I am not even anti-white, despite the madness of that group. And how did it come about that Israel was collaborating with the apartheid government on security measures?

People are scared in this country [the US], to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful. Well, so what? For goodness sake, this is God's world! We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust.

Injustice and oppression will never prevail. Those who are powerful have to remember the litmus test that God gives to the powerful: what is your treatment of the poor, the hungry, the voiceless? And on the basis of that, God passes judgment.

We should put out a clarion call to the government of the people of Israel, to the Palestinian people and say: peace is possible, peace based on justice is possible. We will do all we can to assist you to achieve this peace, because it is God's dream, and you will be able to live amicably together as sisters and brothers.

Desmond Tutu is the former Archbishop of Cape Town and chairman of South Africa's truth and reconciliation commission. This address was given at a conference on Ending the Occupation held in Boston, Massachusetts, earlier this month. A longer version appears in the current edition of Church Times.

--Bishop Desmond Tutu.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,706911,00.html


Go ahead. Say he is a neo-nazi.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 30 June 2004 03:35 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
thread drift

Why is the two state solution dead?
you keep saying that it is. Could you please explain the reasoning behind your position?
I would venture to state that unless the Israeli Defense Forces kill every Palestinian and Israeli intellectual who supports it, the true state solution remains a distinct possibility.

[ 30 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 30 June 2004 03:51 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
To repeat the most obvious points: Arabs in Israel vote in elections, run in elections and get elected to the Knesset. Arabs are also represented throughout the judicial system right up to the Supreme Court. Since Arabs and Jews contribute on the same footing to the systems that make the laws and judge their fairness, the apartheid comparison is simply ridiculous.

Actually, the vast majority of Arabs in Israel (the Occupied Territories of Palestine are, de jure, part of Israel) do not vote in Israeli elections, nor do they serve in the Knesset. These people are subject to military law and denied full legal status as citizens, in contravention of international law. They do not participate in the forming of the laws that govern them and Israel does not allow them full rights to appeal and redress through its legal system. They can be killed and herded about with impunity. They are not fully 'human' in the sense that we use the phrase 'human rights'.

Perhaps you don't know it, but there is a complex series of legal documents in Israeli law which deal with the issue of the status of the Occupied Territories of Palestine and the inhabitants of these areas. These documents are engineered to ensure that Israel does not have to extend full rights and legal guarantees to Palestinians. That Jewish settlers in these same Occupied Territories are extended these rights is a clear indication that this is an ethnically based policy. This is, in practice, not dissimilar to the practice of Apartheid.

A Palestinian is homo sacer.

[ 30 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 01 July 2004 12:56 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Courage:
[QB]The Occupied Territories of Palestine are, de jure, part of Israel)"

Please make up your mind. Either the territories are occupied or they're part of Israel.

If they were part of Israel, the Arabs inhabitants would have the vote, serve in the Knesset, be judges, etc.

The Territories are not part of Israel, therefore, the Arab inhabitants are not citizens, and don't have citizenship rights.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 01 July 2004 01:13 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
He is not the only one who likens Israeli poliices in the West Bank and Gaza to Apartheid.

No, all sorts of people who are ill-informed or who wish Israel ill do so.

But if you'll re-read the piece you quoted, you'll see that Bishop Tutu is not among them.

He does say that the checkpoints and roadblocks remind him of what blacks had to suffer in South Africa.

If you ever should find a quote where Tutu does call Israel an apartheid state, I'd be interested.

Bishop Tutu supports a two-state solution. As do I.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
MyName
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6174

posted 01 July 2004 01:18 AM      Profile for MyName        Edit/Delete Post
CMOT,

The 2-state solution is not dead. But it's long been opposed by both Palestinians and Israelis who aren't really interested in peace.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 01 July 2004 01:22 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MyName:
Please make up your mind. Either the territories are occupied or they're part of Israel.

If they were part of Israel, the Arabs inhabitants would have the vote, serve in the Knesset, be judges, etc.

The Territories are not part of Israel, therefore, the Arab inhabitants are not citizens, and don't have citizenship rights.


If they're not part of Israel, then why is the IDF occupying it, and why do some maps of Israel produced within that country show no distinction between the Occupied Territories and Israel proper?

If they're not part of Israel, why are the Occupied Territories effectively owned by Israel via the use of settlements in the OT's to permanently change the demographic character of the OT's? I remind you that international laws specifically prohibit exactly this sort of thing, precisely because countries like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union pulled that kind of crap all the time to break resistance to their forces.

Stalin ordered all the Checheno-Inguish packed up wholesale and dumped God knows where, just for one example from the USSR. His justification? They were "class enemies". What a hoot!

So, Israel wants to have its cake and eat it too: Owning the land, but disenfranchising the people who live in it. And then when people point this out, they then point to the sop they gave the Palestinian-Arabs by graciously allowing them to vote for a government whose leader can probably order two stones moved and call that the department of public works.

[ 01 July 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Khadiija
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6142

posted 01 July 2004 01:20 PM      Profile for Khadiija   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Instead of calling each other names why can't we work towards something positive? In reading the different threads it appears that there is actually some common concerns.

Desktop warriors on a forum will not change the situation on the ground. A Palestinian state has to be created and Israel has to be able to live in peace. Period.

What is the best way of getting there without too many people being hurt/killed and too much Babble bandwidth?


From: the twilight zone between Canada and the U.S. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 01 July 2004 01:35 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Khadiija:
Instead of calling each other names why can't we work towards something positive? In reading the different threads it appears that there is actually some common concerns.

Desktop warriors on a forum will not change the situation on the ground. A Palestinian state has to be created and Israel has to be able to live in peace. Period.

What is the best way of getting there without too many people being hurt/killed and too much Babble bandwidth?


I wish I could say you were right but I fear your assessment of many Babblers on this thread is not correct.

From my view, there are some who would advocate for a two-state solution however I fear many more here would advocate for the dissolution of the Jewish state to be replaced by a secular state of Palestine/Israel. At least that seems to be the consensus here.

I also wish to reiterate that in the 21st century those who promote the elimination of the only Jewish state engages in 21st century anti-Semitic discourse. Many despise me posting this but it is clear from the mainstream Jewish community world-wide (that would include many Jewish leftists btw) without question the vast majority of Jews feel this way. Many here wish to either outright reject those feelings or deny them. I have asked that they be sensitive to them, try to understand them to little avail.

Nonetheless welcome to Babble Khadiija.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 01 July 2004 01:38 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why is the two state solution dead?

This is the basis for Israeli apartheid.

There are many Israelis who truly believe in the two state solution as there are Palestinians, However, the impact of continued settlement building in the West Bank, the declarations of Sharon, supported by Bush, that Israel will maintain large tracts within the West Bank, the fact that Israel will seek to maintain control over all West Bank and Gaza security along with resources including water resources, that fact that Israel will claim a right of incursion and to blockade and kill Palestinains at will precludes any real, viable Palestinian state.

The purpose of Israel and supported by the US is to create a series of Palestinian reserves, Bantus, unconnected, and subject to Israeli will.

And if the Palestinians will never be allowed to form a truly viable and legitimate state, then the only answer left is a single, federated state.

Why is that so scary?

Israelis must decide whether they want a greater Israel where Jews and Arabs live side-by-side in equality within a liberal democratic state with full separation of church and state, or if they wish to fully withdraw to the 1967 borders and allow Palestinians full control over their own destiny and resources.

The hypocritical and dishonest argument of "we occupy the land and enforce our laws as we see fit but the people of the land we occupy are not entitled to the same protection of the laws we enforce" cannot hold among honourable people.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 01 July 2004 01:50 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The hypocritical and dishonest argument of "we occupy the land and enforce our laws as we see fit but the people of the land we occupy are not
I happen to agree with this statement and it is one of the reasons that I advocate a fair two-state solution.

Your suppositions on how a Palestinain state may look are just that.

In fact in 2000 when then Premier Barak offered (open to argumentation as always) at least 90% (some say as high as 97%) of the WB in what Dennis Ross the American negotiator (of course you think he's a liar) and others said was a contiguous Palestinian state was rejected by Arafat. Not only rejected but with no counter offer only violence. So in historical fact at this time it is the PA leadership who have refused to negotiate a Palestinian state.

Hopefully this will change . I fear however that none of the present leadership in either Israel or the PA have the guts or the will to do so. We may have to await a full change in leadership.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 01 July 2004 01:58 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But you know your historical accounting is a lie which has been demonstrated here so many times.

What does confuse me, though, if you do believe in an fair two state solution, why don't you spend your time advocating a complete Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza rather than come here and provide the same old discredited propaganda lines?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 01 July 2004 02:02 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good question. But it will have to be answered in another thread because this one's too long.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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