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Author Topic: Jerusalem's Orthodox mayor calls Pride Parade "deviant", a "provocation"
Hephaestion
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posted 09 June 2004 09:56 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Yet again, a representative of a minority group with a history of being oppressed and mistreated turns around and demonstrates how much he has learned from their history— by demonizing and denigrating another minority group with a history of oppression and maltreatment.

Apparently he feels that being gay, and all of the meaning and history that comes with that, is something to be ashamed of, and to keep hidden. Apparently, no one has told Mayor Lupolianski that the LGBT community suffered through the same concentration camps and gas ovens as the Jews did. Apparently it's perfectly all right to be a discriminatory bigot if you're an Orthodox Jew...

quote:

Gay Parade Was 'Deviant' Jerusalem Mayor Says

(Jerusalem) Jerusalem Mayor Uri Lupolianski in a weekend radio broadcast called last week's annual Gay Pride celebration "insulting" and "deviant".

Lupolianski, the first Orthodox Jew to hold the post, told radio listeners "this is an ugly phenomenon, which need not happen."

"This parade is not only ugly, it's also a provocation. It's not appropriate for the city, and it offends the sensitivities of its residents. Even people distant from Jerusalem must grasp that this is a sacred city for the Jewish people, and the world as a whole.

"This isn't Paris, and it isn't London. I'm not talking about what a person does privately in his home - a parade in public is something else ... If somebody has some sort of deviant trait, it doesn't mean that he has to raise its banner in public."

Lupolianski said he tried to prevent the parade, Jerusalem's third Pride celebration, from taking place.

"If I had the legal means from stopping a parade that harms the city and its residents, I would prevent the parade. I tried to do so, but it was made clear to me that I don't have the authority," he said.

Lupolianski refused to allow Rainbow flags along the parade route. Two members of an extremist group were arrested after a group of people threw rotten eggs at the parade goers last Thursday.

He also warned that that there could be trouble if the gay community continues with plans to celebrate World Pride next year in the city.

Open House, the LGBT group that organized the Pride celebration, may take the mayor back to court. The city was ordered last year by a court to pick up a share of putting on last year's Pride parade but so no money has been forthcoming. Expenses the city was ordered to pay for this year's parade have also not been paid.


Edited to add source:

http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/06/060704jerusMayor.htm

[ 09 June 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 09 June 2004 10:04 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But in the Middle East's Only Democracy(TM), at least gays and lesbians have more freedom than in the surrounding Dark Force Dictatorships(TM).

The gay and lesbian groups in Israel, interestingly enough, often condemn the quasi-theocratic underpinning of Israel's marriage laws, and some militant groups even call for a total destruction of the Jewish Orthodox stranglehold over those laws.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 10 June 2004 11:04 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It amazes me that even when Israel can be commneded it has to be done with such derision. Gays and lesbians are as comfortable in Israel as any other democratic nation. Yes there are those in governemnt (as in canada, USA etc) who have bigoted views against homosexuality but in comparision to say the PA...well there is no comparision!!
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 June 2004 11:08 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Heph, I find your post problematic. I'm still trying to work through exactly why, but I've got a few things I need to get done elsewhere. I'll start though, by saying that I doubt this guy represents all Jews, or even all Israelis, and leave it at that for now.

Actually, no I won't. I'll also say that I think that the mayor is a real jerk, and that people like that have no place in public life, and it's shameful that he occupies the highest municipal office in Jerusalem.

[ 10 June 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 10 June 2004 11:14 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Heph, I find your post problematic. I'm still trying to work through exactly why, but I've got a few things I need to get done elsewhere. I'll start though, by saying that I doubt this guy represents all Jews, or even all Israelis, and leave it at that for now.

Actually, no I won't. I'll also say that I think that the mayor is a real jerk, and that people like that have no place in public life, and it's shameful that he occupies the highest municipal office in Jerusalem.

[ 10 June 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]



Couldn't agree more. Sorry Michelle, hope my agreeing with you doesnt put you on anyone's boycott list .

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 June 2004 11:22 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It amazes me that even when Israel can be commneded it has to be done with such derision. Gays and lesbians are as comfortable in Israel as any other democratic nation. Yes there are those in governemnt (as in canada, USA etc) who have bigoted views against homosexuality but in comparision to say the PA...well there is no comparision!!

Sourced evidence in regard to this charge might elevate this sentiment above the level of a cheap anti-Arab racist slur, which is how it appears now.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 10 June 2004 11:31 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Sourced evidence in regard to this charge might elevate this sentiment above the level of a cheap anti-Arab racist slur, which is how it appears now.


Hmmm let's see:

Gays attacked in PA

Israel Palestine and Gays

Being Gay in Palestine

If you need more please let me know.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 June 2004 11:43 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's better. Now, how is it that a problem within one society absolves another society of similar problems?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 10 June 2004 01:44 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If I may also step away from the sarcastic riffs for a moment, I would like to say that Uri Lupolianski sounds like he's the Mel Lastman of Jerusalem.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 10 June 2004 01:50 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or the Bob Morrow, Dianne Haskett or Walter Gray.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 10 June 2004 02:38 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Heph, I find your post problematic. I'm still trying to work through exactly why, but I've got a few things I need to get done elsewhere. I'll start though, by saying that I doubt this guy represents all Jews, or even all Israelis, and leave it at that for now.

Actually, no I won't. I'll also say that I think that the mayor is a real jerk, and that people like that have no place in public life, and it's shameful that he occupies the highest municipal office in Jerusalem.

[ 10 June 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


Why problematic? The guy's a bigoted piece of slime.

And I never said he represented "all" or "most" Jews, or Israelis... just Orthodox Jews, as apparently that's the main reason he was objecting (as opposed to Uber Civic Pride) *sarcasm*


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 10 June 2004 02:46 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
It amazes me that even when Israel can be commneded it has to be done with such derision. Gays and lesbians are as comfortable in Israel as any other democratic nation. Yes there are those in governemnt (as in canada, USA etc) who have bigoted views against homosexuality but in comparision to say the PA...well there is no comparision!!


And no, Mac, I DON'T cut the PA any slack on this, either. Their actions (and inactions) are shameful.

That does NOT excuse this kind of crap from any Israelis, however, especially government officials.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 10 June 2004 03:42 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Michelle: that people like that have no place in public life...

This troubles me because I agree completely with the statement yet it clashes directly with seeing people like Monia Mazigh, wife of Maher Harar run for office. Monia is on record for being against same sex marriage no matter what her Ottawa-South constituents and the NDP think.

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 10 June 2004 03:44 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, scooter, Monia has said that she will abstain from voting on the issue. Not good enough for me, but miles away from your characterization.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 June 2004 03:54 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think Mazigh is on the same level as this mayor.

However, scooter, if you look in other threads, you'll see that I don't believe Monia Mazigh should be publicly representing the NDP either if she can't support same sex marriage and vote for it in the House of Commons. Because every vote abstained is a vote taken away.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 10 June 2004 04:14 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
but miles away from your characterization.

I agree with your see your point. Mazigh is more like the reborn David Duke, she is far to smart to make derogatory statements like the Mayor, yet the end result is the same. A minority in our society is left vunerable to discrimination.

Michelle, I didn't mean to imply you were for or against. I was thrilled to see visible minorities, like Monia, run for government. But I have become deeply troubled by her out dated social stance and the NDP hype.


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 10 June 2004 04:44 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mazigh is more like the reborn David Duke

Uh, I don't think she should be running for the NDP if she doesn't support SSM actively, but she's no David Duke. Save the David Duke comparisons for hateful miscreants.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
flotsom
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posted 10 June 2004 04:49 PM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Need more let me know.

Okay. In Tel Aviv there's a park along the shore where gay men often meet. In '92 I was in this park, and happened to witness a rapid military-style roundup of Israeli homosexuals using jeeps, their headlamps lazering to and fro from their rollbars while they raced about like attack drones. One of these jeeps roared directly at me and a man jumped out in a run. Only at the very last minute did he become aware of my oblviousness, and my foreign-ness, otherwise I would have had a gun drawn on me, at the very least. I was commanded to leave immediately. I stayed to observe, peering behind some shrubs. I saw an officer parading up and down a line of twelve or so men. He was screaming, and livid with rage. One man recieved a viscious kick the liver, and dropped to the ground, unconscious or barely. And it's at that time that I left, in complete disgust.

Call me a liar.


From: the flop | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brant K
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posted 10 June 2004 05:21 PM      Profile for Brant K     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's that Gay agenda again


quote:
International human rights monitors have all but ignored gay Palestinians' plight. The U.S. State Department's recently released human rights report for 2001, for instance, blandly notes, "In the Palestinian territories homosexuals generally are socially marginalized, and occasionally receive physical threats." As Ganon explains it, "The Palestinian human rights groups are afraid to deal with the problem. One Palestinian activist told me that Israelis need to raise the issue because they'll be shut down if they try to. Amnesty Israel is sympathetic but their mandate is limited to Israeli human rights violations. And the international human rights groups say they've got a long list of pressing issues. When Israeli police harass Arab Israeli homosexuals, I send out reports, and then--oh, you should see how quickly the human rights organizations get in touch with me to investigate. The hypocrisy is unbelievable."

As Mandos noted in another thread, the persecution of Palestinian gays won't end until "the occupation" ends. Translation: It's all Israel's fault.

Perhaps dr. conway who once typed ALL IN CAPS THAT HE'S GAY can find a way to blame it on "the west".

Hypocrisy? That may explain cueball's inept attempt to tar maccabee with the racist brush.(see above)

That the murderer Arafat and his gay hating misogynist clones may succeed in destroying Israel and impose their putrid fetid vision on the region is truly scary, though flotsom may be mollified. And the pink Courages of the world may be counted on to give an assist, for the obvious betterment of all.

And Qa Bong will have the satisfaction that the Jews have once again been driven from the area. Huzzah!

Or Svend may come out of retirement for yet another photo op....
Same old, same old...

ps

I love it when I'm banned, that way I get to come back and piss you hypocrites off all over again

[ 10 June 2004: Message edited by: Brant K ]


From: Van | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
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posted 10 June 2004 05:49 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Heph,

Please explain why being a "member" NOT a representative of Orthodox Jewry excludes him from holding a belief that is held by representatives and members of many world religions. I am offended that a mayor of a city holds those views, not that he is an Orthodox Jew. I'm sure the Pope holds similar views.

Yes he is a jerk for expressing those views, yes, I wish that he and other religious people would be more sensitive to others but to make the argument that he is a representative and that he speaks for everyone in his city does not work. The city is made up of people of many beliefs.

You have brought up a very important point. How can we as a society make laws to protect and give rights to people who need them and at the same time accomodate the religious beliefs of other members of the society who may hold opposing beliefs that are contrary to the values of the group that needs their rights recognized. In the same sex mariage debate it seems that most religious groups that do not want SSM to be accepted do not accept civil marriages as a religious marriage anyways. How do you balance the desire of some to give MPs the ability to vote as their conscience dictates versus the party policy or the views of their constituents? Would Stephen Harper allow a free vote on an issue he campaigned on?


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 10 June 2004 06:08 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:


And no, Mac, I DON'T cut the PA any slack on this, either. Their actions (and inactions) are shameful.

That does NOT excuse this kind of crap from any Israelis, however, especially government officials.


Never said it did.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 12 June 2004 11:56 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:

Heph,

Please explain why being a "member" NOT a representative of Orthodox Jewry excludes him from holding a belief that is held by representatives and members of many world religions. I am offended that a mayor of a city holds those views, not that he is an Orthodox Jew. I'm sure the Pope holds similar views.



You may say that he is not a representative of his religion, but I have not read or heard (despite looking) any clamour from the Orthodox Jews' camp, upbraiding the mayor for his intolerance and bigotry.


quote:

Yes he is a jerk for expressing those views, yes, I wish that he and other religious people would be more sensitive to others but to make the argument that he is a representative and that he speaks for everyone in his city does not work. The city is made up of people of many beliefs.



True, the city *is* made up of many different groups, but to pretend that a mayor is NOT a representative of his city is ridiculous. That's exactly what he IS, and if the people of the city don't agree with his slimy hate-filled views, they should speak up. Other than Jewish gay groups, however, his comments seem to have provoked little if any response. What are we *supposed* to make of that?


quote:

You have brought up a very important point. How can we as a society make laws to protect and give rights to people who need them and at the same time accomodate the religious beliefs of other members of the society who may hold opposing beliefs that are contrary to the values of the group that needs their rights recognized. In the same sex mariage debate it seems that most religious groups that do not want SSM to be accepted do not accept civil marriages as a religious marriage anyways. How do you balance the desire of some to give MPs the ability to vote as their conscience dictates versus the party policy or the views of their constituents? Would Stephen Harper allow a free vote on an issue he campaigned on?


I don't give a damn about someone else's belief in fairy tales and mythology, not when they use that crapola to try to justify denying me my human rights. Their "religious freedom" does NOT trump my human rights.

And Harper can talk about all the "free votes" he wants. Maybe he wants one on whether women should be allowed to vote? Or whether slavery is a gawd-given right? "Religion" has been used to justify a lot of crap over the years...

Jack is the only one who's got it right. It is a fundamental issue of human rights, and is no more open for debate than the equality of First Nations people, Asians, Jews, or anyone else.

Not that Harpo the Clown or Jack have anything to do with a bigoted slimebag in Jerusalem...


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 12 June 2004 01:37 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You may say that he is not a representative of his religion, but I have not read or heard (despite looking) any clamour from the Orthodox Jews' camp, upbraiding the mayor for his intolerance and bigotry.


Then you were looking with your eyes closed. Linked to the story was a second stroy in which the following was stated:

quote:
Despite the condemnation of Mayor Lupolianski by fellow Orthodox Jews, he is also under attack by Open House the group that organized the Pride celebration.


Gay Pride Parade

It saddens me that you are so quick to condemn Israelis...and people wonder.....


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 12 June 2004 02:07 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, you are soooo full of it! If you're going to quote the article, get it RIGHT, please!

quote:

The day before Pride a special security detail was assigned to Jerusalem mayor Uri Lupolianski after threats were received accusing him of allowing the "abomination" to take place.

then...

quote:

Despite the condemnation of Mayor Lupolianski by fellow Orthodox Jews, he is also under attack by Open House the group that organized the Pride celebration.

In other words, the Orthodox Jews were attacking the mayor for NOT condemning and attacking the parade, and indeed for allowing it.

These would be the SAME Orthgodox Jews who were:

quote:

"...hurling rotten eggs as the parade marched down Ben Yehuda Mall.

Two members of an extremist group were arrested. Not far from the parade route ultra-Orthodox rabbis held a rally denouncing homosexuality and burning Indian made wigs."


And of course, we now know what Mayor Lupolianski did. He caved in to the religious fundamentalist fascists and religious bigots. Just how is he NOT representing their sick-o philosophy? He's caved in to them!!

You say:

quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
It saddens me that you are so quick to condemn Israelis...and people wonder.....

I say:

Save the "It saddens me" pose, Macabee. I did NOT "condemn all Israelis" at all. I called the mayor a "bigoted slimebag" and intolerant, and I questioned WHY there was no disagreement voiced by his religion's leaders or the wider citizenry of Jerusalem beyond the gay community. I never said a THING about "all Israelis"... you did.

So stop trying to protect fucked-up bigots with a cloak of religious self-righteousness and veiled insinuations of anti-Jewishness. That argument is as threadbare as it gets.

[ 12 June 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 12 June 2004 02:55 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
[QB]Heph,

Please explain why being a "member" NOT a representative of Orthodox Jewry excludes him from holding a belief that is held by representatives and members of many world religions.


What a terrible argument. A flat-out evasion. This kind of ditty is an oppurtunistic perversion of the so-called 'moral relativist' position that some seem to think means that we are incapable of rendering any sort of moral judgements against anyone. Moreover, it doesn't address the substance of Hephaestion's argument that the Mayor's words (and the attitude of many people in Jerusalem who support him) are intolerant.

Anyway, down to specifics of your word-play (seems you learned from the Mishtifyer himself...). It is not clear that Hephaestion is 'excluding' the Mayor from having his opinions (regardless of whoever else might hold them). Rather, it appears that Heph is condemning that opinion (and those who hold it) on the grounds that it is intolerant and discriminatory against a specific minority.

Now, instead of your evasions, a more poignant strategy to counter Hephaestion would be to provide an argument that undermines the specific values on which his argument is based. That is, you might want to show how the argument that tolerance and fairness toward gays, lesbians, and bi-sexuals is a bad idea and that the counterpoint provided by the Mayor is an ethically superior position...

But, oh wait, you can't do that because you've already fallen for the nihilist pseudo-relativist trap.

So where does that leave you...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 12 June 2004 02:56 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's just the point my firend. He could have called it off. He is an Orthgodox Jew in a city that for the most part does not tolerate Homosexuality as part of their misguided religious dogma. Yes he condemned it but did not move to shut it down.

I condemn Lubianski's bigotry but admire the fact that despite threats from extremists he carried on.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 12 June 2004 04:12 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I see. So while Lubianski is a bigot, at least he's to be commended for being a principled bigot....???


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 12 June 2004 04:32 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, but you cannot just see things in shades of black and white. Israel is a land that is trying to bridge the gap between the secular and religious. That Gay Pride International will be held in Jerusalem next year is amazing. Sure it would had been better if there were a secular Mayor of Jerusalem who did not carry around this religious zealotry however the fact that Gays and Lesbians are living a decent life, that they are no longer afraid to come out that Gay pride exists in Israel puts it not only way ahead of its regressive neighbors but on par with most Western nations if not above.

So instead of taking the usual route of looking at what is bad in Israel all the time, try being a little open-minded and open-hearted )if you can, I know it may not be possible) look at the cup as being half full not half empty on at least this issue. Stop pointing at Israel and picking every fucking fault you can....there is much progress on Gay issues in Israel most will see that. Those, however, with constant hate in their heart for the country and its people will never see it.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 12 June 2004 07:51 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 12 June 2004 11:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You almost had me up until this piece of snottiness:

quote:
So instead of taking the usual route of looking at what is bad in Israel all the time, try being a little open-minded and open-hearted )if you can, I know it may not be possible) look...


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 12 June 2004 11:15 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Don't worry Cueball, he never "had" me. If it was possible, I'm sure Macabee would twist it around to blame it all on Arafat. He's got a one-track mind, and I find it's not worth responding to fanciful ravings.

Yes, the PA treatment of gays and lesbians is awful, indeed, it is criminal.

That does not alter the fact that Israel's treatment of LGBT people is also less than perfect. Statements such as:

quote:

"the fact that ... Gay pride exists in Israel puts it not only way ahead of its regressive neighbors but on par with most Western nations if not above.

indicates the level of hypocrisy and delusion that Macabee struggles to overcome every day.

One can do naught but pity him, and hope modern medical science can soon find some means of alleviating his suffering.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 12 June 2004 11:39 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This whole discussion brings us back to the Thorny Issue of the participation of social conservative/traditional religious groups in a secular/liberal democratic society.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 13 June 2004 12:24 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I don't try to dictate how they run their church, mosque or temple.

They'd better not try to dictate how I run my civic affairs.

Separation of church from state. Simple.

What "Thorny Issue"??


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 13 June 2004 12:30 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This bit of business about the commingling of religion into politics in Israel strikes me as being quite similar to the United States, where, on paper, government is quite separate from religion, but in practice, the two blur into each other in ways which are not beneficial to society.

Witness, for example, the fact that the stinking Repubs are beholden to the Christian Coalition (which claims 20 million members) due in part to its impressive fundraising and propagandizing abilities.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Raos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5702

posted 13 June 2004 12:35 AM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
That's just the point my firend. He could have called it off. He is an Orthgodox Jew in a city that for the most part does not tolerate Homosexuality as part of their misguided religious dogma. Yes he condemned it but did not move to shut it down.

I condemn Lubianski's bigotry but admire the fact that despite threats from extremists he carried on.


From the original article:

quote:
Lupolianski said he tried to prevent the parade, Jerusalem's third Pride celebration, from taking place.

From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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Babbler # 888

posted 13 June 2004 01:33 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't try to dictate how they run their church, mosque or temple.

They'd better not try to dictate how I run my civic affairs.

Separation of church from state. Simple.

What "Thorny Issue"??


See, this is the issue I was trying to bring up in The Other Thread. Separation of church and state does not mean that religious people who participate in the affairs of state do not exercise their religious conscience on the state--you may argue that it should, but so far it never has meant that. (I would argue that it is impossible even for those who have consciously eschewed a religious perspective, but this is a separate issue.)

Consequently, people who believe that there is a Plan for human behaviour in society (usually traditionally religious people) cannot simply say, "Your behaviour is none of my business." If one is interested in living in a society that continues to adhere to a Plan governing human choices and circumscribing human behavioural predilections, a society in which there is a particular Norm, and one believes that it is a matter of the soul that it should be so, then we really do have a problem that cannot simply be angrily waved away.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 13 June 2004 01:37 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As Mandos noted in another thread, the persecution of Palestinian gays won't end until "the occupation" ends. Translation: It's all Israel's fault.
The occupier, being the one in control, ipso facto takes on the preponderence of responsibility for social progress or lack thereof. If this means that "It's all Israel's fault" then so be it. I myself would not go that far; I would say that the occupation is a necessary but likely not sufficient condition for the current state of affairs. After all, we have honestly no idea what the Middle East would have been like without the occupation.

From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 13 June 2004 02:05 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
Consequently, people who believe that there is a Plan for human behaviour in society (usually traditionally religious people) cannot simply say, "Your behaviour is none of my business."


I understand your point, but with all due respect, yes, they can. Their "plan," not mine. Their problem, not mine.

I do not have the right to control the terms under which they practice their religion (as long as it doesn't involve ritual sacrifice, or something, of course! )

They do not have the right to control the terms under which I live my life as a contributing member of society (similarly, as long as I am not causing harm to others.)

What is difficult about this concept? Live and let live— and butt out of what does not rightfully concern you. It's not rocket science.

[ 13 June 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 13 June 2004 03:55 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I understand your point, but with all due respect, yes, they can. Their "plan," not mine. Their problem, not mine.
Well, the problem is now semantic. can and can't have very little meaning in reference to conviction, particularly moral conviction. If one believes one must act on something, then clearly one can't not act, otherwise what would be the point of believing it? And thus it is also your problem, because clearly some people do believe that they must act, and therefore act.
quote:
I do not have the right to control the terms under which they practice their religion (as long as it doesn't involve ritual sacrifice, or something, of course! )
This is a contradiction. You have admitted that the state does have the power to curtail religious practice, among other practices, for various definitions of harm. In fact, you admit this below:
quote:
They do not have the right to control the terms under which I live my life as a contributing member of society (similarly, as long as I am not causing harm to others.)
Here's the rub. The entire discussion centers around what constitutes harm.

Straight supporters of SSM in particular like to joke that SSM never caused their marriage to fall apart. Or that there are many other threats to marriage prior to SSM, like divorce rates and so on. But quips like this miss the point. SSM opponents never said that the Plan could be perfectly implemented without wrinkles. But the Plan forms a Norm from which people stray but towards which society as a whole would tend. SSM breaks that Norm, and thus to them leaves society Intrinsically Disordered. Intrinsic Disorder is defined as harm.

One could narrow this further and declare that the individual harm of preventing SSM outweighs metaphysicalish claims of harm to society by Intrinsic Disorder. But opponents would retort that it does indeed also cause individual harm; it allows people to grow up with an Intrinsically Disordered notion of appropriate relationships.

Then you could move further and say, the harm must be material, not psychic. This can either degenerate into arguments over the interpretation of AIDS stats (you've surely read FOTF's web site!)...or opponents can take an easy way out: since this is partly an argument about the role of religion, by that very fact you cannot define away this discussion by limiting harm to material. Their very argument is that there is non-material individual harm. Impasse.

So in other words, it is impossible to argue that they are trying to prevent SSM for reasons other than the harm they feel it causes.

(For the record, I myself presently think that relying on metaphysical harm in one particular case opens up religion and the secular state to numerous other forms of abuse and hypocrisy. But this is another debate.)

quote:
What is difficult about this concept? Live and let live— and butt out of what does not rightfully concern you. It's not rocket science.
You use that word "rightful." For reasons that should now be obvious, it is a problematic word. The concept you find easy others find very difficult, because of "rightful."

I am not now primarily trying to argue whether or not the state should recognize SSM. We are only discussing what it means that someone is capable of trying to block it. What you see as a simple concept of your rights maybe so, and I understand why you would think it, and you may be correct. But alas it is still your problem what to do about those who argue the above.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 13 June 2004 11:07 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
What you see as a simple concept of your rights maybe so, and I understand why you would think it, and you may be correct. But alas it is still your problem what to do about those who argue the above.

Fascinating argument Mandos— really! (And I'm not simply being facetious.) However, metaphysics always did make my head whirl, and while I helped my roommate study his philosophy courses by quizzing him from his books, some of the arguments seemed akin to the "angels dancing on the head of a pin" variety of thing, and I could never see the point.

This case, however, seems to be attempting to balance the metaphysical and philosophical against the very real and concrete. One could argue that both sides are a philosophical stance— the need of a "plan" against the need to express "love"— but I would argue that while the former remains wholly on the metaphysical plane, the latter does not, as it involves individuals' rights to marry persons of their own choosing, along with all the attendant rights of marriage.

However, as fascinating as all that may be, it gets back to a point that Newbie made repeatedly, and that I completely agree with. How is arguing for (ie: justifying) SSM any different from justifying interracial marriage? Why should it be open to a debate, and what gives these adherents of a "plan" the unmitigated gall to suppose that they have the right to define "marriage" for society as a whole? You answer, "why, the Plan itself, of course." This is circular "logic" at best, and I won't get dragged into that.

Instead, I would tell these "plan" people that their religious rights have a limit, the same as "free speech" has its limits. As the old comparison goes, they have a right to swing their arm all they want, until it intersects with the end of my chin, whereupon their "arm swinging freedom" is at an end.

When it comes to my basic human rights to have my marriage legally recognized by the state and society as a whole, their "right" to a "plan" comes to a halt. I do not tell them what they can believe, but I do tell them that if that belief seeks to curtail my civil rights, then it is curtailed itself. Sorry, but there IS no debate on this, as far as I am concerned.

If these "plan people" don't like that, they are free to pack up their things, get together with all the other "plan people" and find a deserted atoll somewhere where they can live out their wonderful "plan" in isolated perfection. I'm sure not going to stop them— I'd even help them pack.

But I somehow suspect that long before it came to that, somehow— as in the cases of the divine right of kings, or the practice of sacrificing local virgins to the deity of the day— their "plan" might come in for some major overhauling.

It's called "growth," and it's a good thing. Even for metaphysical plans.

[ 13 June 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


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Starbuck
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Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 12:38 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Interesting how this story is another springboard for an attack on Israel. Why is Israel held to a different standard than other nations? Read Anatoly Sharansky's article on the 3Ds and ask if Heph was demonizing Israel. To put it in perspective, Saudi Arabia, a nation that champions: "the oppressed and mistreated" "turns around and demonstrates" how much they have NOT learned from their history— by putting to death three men for sodomy. I did not see an equally vociferous condemnation of the beheading of these men.
http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/saudi_arabia/saudinews15.htm

Reality check.... a Jewish mayor in Israel (Zionist Entity) speaks out against a gay pride parade and an Arab nation beheads 3 men for "sosdomy". Yes, another opportunity to bash Israel. This is getting boring.

The 3 Ds speak for themselves.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
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Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 12:53 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Courage, of course you don't like the argument. You are the one that believes that JNF buys tanks.

"I guess those tanks paid for themselves.... " If you choose to post garbage learn your facts first.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 13 June 2004 01:28 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
Interesting how this story is another springboard for an attack on Israel. Why is Israel held to a different standard than other nations? Read Anatoly Sharansky's article on the 3Ds and ask if Heph was demonizing Israel. To put it in perspective, Saudi Arabia, a nation that champions: "the oppressed and mistreated" "turns around and demonstrates" how much they have NOT learned from their history— by putting to death three men for sodomy. I did not see an equally vociferous condemnation of the beheading of these men.
http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/saudi_arabia/saudinews15.htm

Reality check.... a Jewish mayor in Israel (Zionist Entity) speaks out against a gay pride parade and an Arab nation beheads 3 men for "sosdomy". Yes, another opportunity to bash Israel. This is getting boring.

The 3 Ds speak for themselves.



So start a thread about how fucked-up the Saudis are then, Starbuck. I didn't mention that story because I wasn't AWARE of it. Yeeesh!! I can't criticize a Jew for homophobic bigotry without balancing it out by criticizing a homophobic Arab? What about the homophobic Asians, or Africans, Starbuck?

Fucking Christ on a crutch, Starbuck, what part of

quote:

And no, Mac, I DON'T cut the PA any slack on this, either. Their actions (and inactions) are shameful.

That does NOT excuse this kind of crap from any Israelis, however, especially government officials.


don't you UNDERSTAND???

And why do you, and Macabee, and all these other knee-jerk apologists perpetually try to excuse the abuses of the Israeli state by shrieking that the Arabs are sooooooo much more wicked....???

As I ALREADY pointed out to Macabee, Starbuck, I never said ANYTHING about "all Jews" or even the state of Israel— I called ONE mayor (and his Orthodox brethren) homophobes and slime. I stand by that statement.

As for the Saudis, Egyptians, Palestinians (or for that matter the Malaysians, or American Republicans) I'M not seeking to excuse anyone's bigotry, Starbuck — why are YOU?!?!


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 June 2004 01:58 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
[qb]Courage, of course you don't like the argument.

And of course you haven't done anything to counter my assertions about your arguments. That's a fact.

quote:
You are the one that believes that JNF buys tanks.
"I guess those tanks paid for themselves.... " If you choose to post garbage learn your facts first.

And apparently your reading skills are every bit as poor as your arguing skills. If you followed the thread you are referring to, I was quite explicit in describing how the JNF's aid to the Israeli government helped with the purchase of tanks. That's also a fact.

See, it's simple: say I only have ten geldings and I need to feed and clothe myself. Moreover, I want to buy a big knife to kill people with. Clothing is 9 geldings and a knife is 4. I clearly have a problem. But if some nice benefactor comes along and buys my food and clothing. Well, then, now I have enough geldings for two knifes, and some left over. So the benefactor doesn't buy the knife - directly - but their gesture (and they know I'm gonna buy the knife, don't kid yourself) helps me to arm myself.

That's a fact.

[ 13 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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Babbler # 3980

posted 13 June 2004 02:09 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
Interesting how this story is another springboard for an attack on Israel. Why is Israel held to a different standard than other nations?

Where's the different standard? Seems to me that if the Mayor of Toronto, or Washington, or London, or Paris, or Jakarta, or New Delhi, or Johannesburg, or Timbuktu said this kind of thing, I imagine that Heph would have a problem. This 'Israel is judged differently' argument is such a bore. Especially when it is trundled out in concert with some comparison to some awful thing that happened elsewhere. BTW, are the Mayor of Jerusalem's comments bigotted, or not?

quote:
Read Anatoly Sharansky's article on the 3Ds and ask if Heph was demonizing Israel. To put it in perspective, Saudi Arabia, a nation that champions: "the oppressed and mistreated"

And this was asserted by whom? And when? Could you point out this assertion for us, Starbuck? Keep spinning. BTW, this is also an Appeal to Authority fallacy. So, are the Mayor's comments bigotted, or not?


quote:
"turns around and demonstrates" how much they have NOT learned from their history— by putting to death three men for sodomy. I did not see an equally vociferous condemnation of the beheading of these men.
http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/saudi_arabia/saudinews15.htm
Reality check.... a Jewish mayor in Israel (Zionist Entity) speaks out against a gay pride parade and an Arab nation beheads 3 men for "sosdomy". Yes, another opportunity to bash Israel. This is getting boring.

The 3 Ds speak for themselves.


Reality check - your reference to Saudi Arabia is a diversion. This appeal does not directly counter the position that the Mayor of Jerusalem has made intolerant comments as a representative of the so-called 'spiritual capital' of Israel. Strictly speaking, the event in Saudi Arabia that you mention is irrelevent to the question of the morality of the Mayor's position. The introduction of this fact does not force a remake of Heph's original argument. Sometimes, this is called a 'red herring'.

BTW, are the Mayor of Jerusalem's comments on GLBT folks bigotted?

Another reality check - neither you or Macabee have shown how Heph's commentary - directed at a specific person and group of people and not 'Israel' as a whole - constitutes an "attack on Israel". This is sometimes called a strawman fallacy.
Looks like you're learning from the would-be-master, my little chela, the Mishtificator....

Let's try bringing this down to simple words again, shall we. You may know this one: Two wrongs don't make a right.

BTW, are the comments of the Mayor of Jerusalem about the Gay Pride Parade held in that city (and about gays in general) intolerant and bigotted? Should we oppose bigotted and intolerant words about gays regardless of where they happen - even if worse behaviour exists elsewhere?

[ 13 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 02:25 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Hephaestion, I am not an apologist for the "Zionist Entity", I am a person who tries to help as many people as possible of all faiths. I have been around the world helping many causes including Muslim countries. I get tired when people bash Israel and raise the Palestinian cause way above the cause of other issues. The Israelis are picked on, dumped on and villified WAY more than any other cause. Why is that Heph? Because the Zionist Entity is so evil? I think not.

quote:
I never said ANYTHING about "all Jews" or even the state of Israel...

You SAID he was "a representative" of what was obviously a reference to Orthodox Jews. Then you went on to defend your hatred by claiming "I have not read or heard (despite looking) any clamour from the Orthodox Jews' camp, upbraiding the mayor for his intolerance and bigotry." You tried to link the fact that he was a representative of Judaism and that there wasn't any "clamour" from other Orthodox Jews as justification for bashing him. His views are not sensitive to the LGBT community , I think we all agree on that. There are thousands of Arabs that live in Jerusalem and since we now know how sodomists are beheaded in the friendly kingdom of Saudi Arabia should one assume that the Muslim view is any different than the Orthodox Jewish view? Since there was no clamour from the Muslim camp should we assume that they also agree with the mayor and deserve condemnation or just the "representative" of Jews?

I see now how the World Conference Against Racism in Durban descended into a hatefest of Jews.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 02:39 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Courage,

Your agruments are so sophomoric they don't deserve a reply.
Lets see, if JNF buy tanks for Israel who buys the explosives for Palestinian terorists who kill innocent people? Get that old bicycle out Courage because according to your logic buying gas from your local Esso station might send money to an Arab country that then gives money to buy the ball bearings that are packed in the suicide bomber's belts of a friendly neighbourhood terrorist. While you are on your bike getting fresh air and excercise in our Canadian winter think of all the reforestaion and water projects that the JNF does.

Are you a 1st or 2nd year student?


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 13 June 2004 02:53 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
You make me laugh, Starbuck, Apparently, anyone who condemns a hateful bigot who is a Jew is a bigot.

Fact 1: The Mayor of Jerusalem made bigoted, homophobic statements.

Fact 2: The Mayor of Jerusalem is an Orthodox Jew.

Fact 3: A group of other Orthodox Jews were holding a rally at the same time as the Pride Parade that denounced homosexuality, and had earlier condemned the mayor for allowing "the abomination" [the parade] to proceed.

Fact 4: The Mayor of Jerusalem admitted himself that he had tried to stop the parade but was unsuccessful.

Now without dragging Muslims, Hindus, Druids, Wiccans, or any OTHER religions into the argument, explain to me why the following statements are not true:

1. The Mayor of Jerusalem is an intolerant bigot.

2. Mayor of Jerusalem is representative of many other Orthodox Jews, who are also — apparently— intolerant bigots.

I'm TRYING to make this easy for you, since you apparently have such difficulty concentrating on a simple point.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 13 June 2004 02:57 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
There we go— Swallow just posted a story about France resisting gay marriage. See? It's not all about Jews... it's about intolerant bigots.

And every country has 'em— even Israel. Even Canada...


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brant K
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5831

posted 13 June 2004 03:23 PM      Profile for Brant K     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting who you choose to attack though, Hephaestion.

You attack the Jewish Mayor and those who agree with him as homophobic slime, while the massive and ugly suppression and persecution of gays in countries such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia gets reduced to "a homophobic Arab."

You rail against "all these other knee-jerk apologists" who "perpetually try to excuse the abuses of the Israeli state", and then in the next sentence try to claim you have not said anything about the state of Israel.

You may not want to excuse bigotry, but you gloss over the one, and voiciferously denounce the other.

The fact that Israel harbours the only gay pride festival in the region seems unremarkable to you.
I would suggest that a dedicated and principled activist such as yourself might try to help organize one in Damascus, or Cairo, or Riyadh, but I suspect that would be the last we would ever hear of you.

Threads have been started before on babble pointing out the complete lack of human rights for, and vicious assaults on, gays in Egypt, for instance, but have quickly devolved into blaming Israel, (See Mandos above) or "the West."

And Courage as usual stinks up the joint by claiming that beheading gays in Saudi Arabia is "irrelevant" and " a strawman". These busy international human rights activists have " a long list of pressing concerns", and atrocities against homosexuals in Syria or Saudi Arabia or Iran just don't rate. Two wrongs don't make a right, he soothes, as he gets on with his main objective, destroying the Israeli state.

Loyalty to the cause was a quality of your ancient namesake, Hephaestion. Israel's gays have more rights and freedom than in any other country in the region. Remember that, and don't be a useful idiot for the Jew Hating islamofascist jackals who would not only destroy Israel, but seek to obliterate your very kind from the face of the earth.

[ 13 June 2004: Message edited by: Brant K ]


From: Van | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 03:23 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Heph, for the last time I will try and explain it in a simple way that even a child can understand. If you don't understand it print out the page and take it to a friend (if you have one) who is not clouded by hatred for the Zionist Entity.

The mayor of Jerusalem is not the representative of Orthodox Jews, period. The mayor of Jerusalem represents the citizens of Jerusalem who elected him. Jerusalem is made up of Orthodox Jews as well as many other faiths. Some Orthodox Jews are bigots, some religious Muslims are bigots, some posters on this forum are bigots.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 13 June 2004 03:39 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Clothing is 9 geldings and a knife is 4. I clearly have a problem.

Courage, you're a mensch, but this one cracked me up.

You have my sympathies, Hephaestion.

Criticism of homophobic religious zealots who hold public office is usually considered acceptable, except some homophobic religious zealots seem to be more acceptable than others.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 13 June 2004 03:54 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Brant—

You want a thread on vicious, intolerant, homophobic slime (not to mention nasty ol' poopyhead— is that better?) Arabs?

Start one... I'll join in. Trust me!

Starbuck—

So then we are agreed that:

1) The Mayor of Jerudalem is am intolerant bigot.
2) The Orthodox Jews who were denouncing homosexuality are intolerant bigots.

Let's agree on those first, before we spin off into subsequent issues. I get to insist, 'coz I asked first. Otherwise, you are just evading the point. Either agree or disagree. But if you disagree, be prepared to explain WHY you think that.

Yeeesh— I can see I have to take it in tiny little baby steps with you.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 04:07 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Heph,

If you can't understand the problem with your original post I can't help you get past your hatred of the Zionist Entity.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 13 June 2004 04:51 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
That's it, Starbuck. Avoid the issue.

I guess maybe you're right—

quote:

...some posters on this forum are bigots.


or at the very least, apologists for bigots.

Pretty much the same thing, from where I stand...


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 13 June 2004 04:56 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Psst... Hephaestion, try this. It usually works wonders with the likes of Starbuck and Brant:

**PLONK**


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 13 June 2004 05:00 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
And what's this, Brant?

STILL no thread about "vicious, intolerant, homophobic slimey, nasty ol' poopyhead Arabs"?

Do you mean to tell me you're not really concerned about homophobia and violence against LGBT people in the Muslim world?

Were you just trying to... .... say it isn't so! CLOUD THE ISSUE? MUDDY THE WATERS?!

Well! I must say, I am shocked! Just SHOCKED!!!

[SARCASM] And here I thought you were being SINCERE, Brant!! [/SARCASM]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 13 June 2004 06:13 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But in the Middle East's Only Democracy(TM), at least gays and lesbians have more freedom than in the surrounding Dark Force Dictatorships(TM).

Doc, could you please tell me how gay friendly the Middle East is. I have heard that being gay is a death sentence in Saudi Arabia is a death sentence, but to assume that the entire Arab world is homophobic is a generalization I am not prepared to make. Is Lebanon's capital(sorry I forgot how to spell it... I'm going senile at 23! Gaah!)

quote:
puts it not only way ahead of its regressive neighbors but on par with most Western nations if not above.

Above!? You must he joking! What about Holland, Sweden, Germany and Denmark!?

quote:
Stop pointing at Israel and picking every fucking fault you can....there is much progress on Gay issues in Israel most will see that. Those, however, with constant hate in their heart for the country and its people will never see it.

If we can't pick apart Israeli policies how can we possibly make suggestions to improve them?
I'll let you in on a little secret Mac.
I am a Zionist!
As a Zionist, I find these constant masturbatory comparisons to the Arab world annoying. They are also dangerous. Likudnick (and labor) propagandists often use them in the same way they use claims of democracy. To distract Israel's supporters and Israelis themselves from the very real social ills facing the country, such as unemployment, homelessness, and crime. Yes, Israel is a better place to live in Saudi Arabia, but let's face it, Israel could sink into the 23rd level of hell and still be a better place to live than Saudi! Are we going to improve the Israeli state(and work with the Palestinians for a better Israel and a independent Palestinian state) or are we going to close our eyes and continue to compare Israel to autocracys like Yemen and Algeria?
Wait a second, didn't you call me a anti-Semite not to long ago?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
al-Qa'bong,

You might want to consider having an adult read your posts before pressing the add reply button. I had to laugh at your childish posting about a double standard. You have publicly called for the freedom of Marwan Bargouti and have the nerve to talk about "homophobic religious zealots" who might make an objection to a gay pride parade.

For those who might not be familiar with the peace-loving, dovish Marwan Bargouti, he is a convicted murderer, a person who was found responsible by the courts as being responsible for 3 terrorist attacks which killed 5 human beings. Talk about zealots, how do you have the nerve to defend a terrorist? Oh, I forgot, he is fighting the Zionist Entity and had the right to murder the Greek monk in June 2001 in Maalei Adumim because the Zionist Entity has tanks, which according to Courage are purchased by the JNF (with little pine trees on the dashboard?) and the poor, dowtrrodden Palestinians don't.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 13 June 2004 06:22 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Y'know, SB, all this talk about "the Zionist Entity" sounds more than a little weird, like it's some sort of cult leader or something.

What the hell is up with that???

If you mean ISRAEL, just friggin' say so!!!


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5618

posted 13 June 2004 06:39 PM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
Hephaestion, Israel ,as it stands today, is a product of zionism.
Starbuck, I don't know if you're aware of it, but during the trial Marwan Barghouthi never defended himself, he simply stated that the court had no jurisdiction over him, and as such, the trial was illegal, and you know what, it was. As such, the trial was one way all through with prosecution but no defence.I fail to see how the results of this trial are any indication of guilt or innocence.

From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brant K
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5831

posted 13 June 2004 06:41 PM      Profile for Brant K     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And what's this, Brant?
STILL no thread about "vicious, intolerant, homophobic slimey, nasty ol' poopyhead Arabs"?

Do you mean to tell me you're not really concerned about homophobia and violence against LGBT people in the Muslim world?

Were you just trying to... .... say it isn't so! CLOUD THE ISSUE? MUDDY THE WATERS?!

Well! I must say, I am shocked! Just SHOCKED!!!

[SARCASM] And here I thought you were being SINCERE, Brant!! [/SARCASM]


You are an idiot, Hephaestion, but no doubt a useful one in certain quarters. Links are easy to find, if you'd just pull the blinders off.

Here is but one:

quote:
They wanted me to confess to being gay and to name other gay people. Cigarettes on my arms. I still have the marks. Electricity: telephone wire around my arms and my penis. At the police station we were tortured every third day, with two days in between. There was fifteen minutes with the electricity. They took telephone wire and wrapped it around my fingers, my toes, my ear, my penis. It was connected to a kind of telephone they cranked up by hand to produce the shocks and it was like death.

There were beatings, sometimes before, sometimes after that. They kept your hands cuffed behind your back and your legs tied, or in shackles. They would pull down your pants and strip your upper body and beat you with plastic sticks.

It happened individually, so that they would torture the others on days when they were not torturing me. At first they would slap me a lot, when I didn’t give names. Then after the slappings they moved on to electrocuting me with the telephone wire. Then to the cell, for half an hour or so. Then they would come get me again. They would say, “So, you still haven’t decided to give names or addresses?” Then would come the cigarettes. That was the routine.197

On the day of his arrest, an officer took Gamal back to his own apartment:

They robbed me blind. I can’t describe the pillage enough. They took my video, mobile, satellite receiver, VCR, walkman. My entire library of music cassettes. … They took soap bars. My former wife’s clothes! Everything they could steal. And when I asked, “Why are you taking them?” The officer said, “So we can have a bit of fun. You’re going to jail: who will these things be for? So that what’s left will be safer, I’ll seal it with red wax.” And when I was acquitted I couldn’t get in the apartment for three months because of the seal.198

Gamal says he saw the niyaba only “fifteen days or so” after his arrest.199

While we were in the niyaba another prosecutor took us to a room and gathered all the prosecutors in one room. He put his feet on the desk and asked the five of us to say in one voice, “We’re khawalat, we’re whores, we like to get fucked.” The other prosecutors were watching and laughing. I refused to say it; so the prosecutor stood up and slapped us all. 200

On January 17 all five defendants were ordered to receive a forensic anal examination. Gamal says, “At the Forensic Medical Authority, they showed no interest when I told them about torture. I showed the doctor my wounds, the cigarette burns; you could still see burns from the electricity. He said he was only empowered to look for a specific thing.”201

At successive niyaba hearings, the defendants’ detention was renewed. Ultimately they were transferred to the Damanhour Prison. “We were harshly beaten on arrival by about eight guards. They stripped us fully naked and beat us with their bare hands until we almost fainted. They ran after us with batons.”

“One guard in prison was the most evil among them,” Gamal says:202

He hit us with plastic sticks. He filled tubs with frozen water and dumped us in it or splashed us with it. He made us sweep the prison stairs, and mop them. And there were insults all the time. Did he treat us worse than the other prisoners? Oh, yes. There were others who were the scum of the prison, who were beaten and insulted, but he treated us like the servants of the scum of the prison. We were the lowest of the low. Such misery you cannot imagine. He would open our cell at night as we were sleeping, and come in and slap us. I had religious booklets to console me. He told me I was too filthy to deserve them, and took them and tore them up. The beatings happened every day. The baths in ice water happened almost every day for weeks. The burns on my arm happened in the police station, but in the prison, he made these cigarette burns on my leg.203

Gamal allowed Human Rights Watch to photograph his leg: a year later, it was still covered with scars from cigarette burns.



From: Van | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 06:45 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Y'know, SB, all this talk about "the Zionist Entity" sounds more than a little weird, like it's some sort of cult leader or something.

The Zionist Entity is the name the Israel bashers use when talking about Israel. Whenever I work in Islamic countries I never hear about Israel, they won't even use the name Israel just Zionist Entity. Maybe, just maybe, when they are ready to think about accepting Israel's existence they can start talking about a settlement to some of the outstanding issue. And then, just think about it, people like Heph, Courage al-Qa'bong and Beluga2 will have to start focussing their attention on Tibet, Sudan, Congo, Egypt, Syria, Iran, China, Korea, Cuba, Libya, Myanmar, Nigeria, Kenya to name a few (in no particular order.) Then maybe the rabble.ca board will have categories for: Africa and the rest of the world instead of the ever popular "middle East" and the rest of the world.

Hey, why don't they bash those countries now and save time?


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 06:57 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
mjollnir,

It was Bargouti's chose not to have a lawyer and represent himself. He was acquitted of 33 other murders.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 13 June 2004 07:10 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For those who might not be familiar with the peace-loving, dovish Marwan Bargouti, he is a convicted murderer, a person who was found responsible by the courts as being responsible for 3 terrorist attacks which killed 5 human beings.

If you want to defend the Kangaroo Court justice system that convicted Bargouti, why not go to the relevant thread?

Your attempt at derailing this thread isn't working, nor is your shabby attempt to smear Hephastion with cheap accusations.

He has started threads similar to this one on Jamaica and Virginia without anyone accusing him of anti-Cracker animus or hatred of Jamaicans.

What makes the mayor of Jerusalem so special?

[ 13 June 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 June 2004 07:21 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
Courage,

Your agruments are so sophomoric they don't deserve a reply.


How convenient. Funny that you tried to reply with this little backdoor visit...

quote:
Lets see, if JNF buy tanks for Israel who buys the explosives for Palestinian terorists who kill innocent people?

That's a fine question. In fact, there has been considerable effort to stop funding to groups like Hamas (who also carry out social service functions for Palestinians) society because of their link to violence against Israelis and the IDF. There is no 1-1 linkage for these funds in the case of Hamas - that is, no one can be sure exactly which dollars go to clothing families made homeless by IDF bulldozers purchased with American grants and loans and which go to making explosives. All that is known is that the same organisation is carrying it out. As such, the funding is blocked. This was the same logic used in the sanctions regime and corporate boycotts applied to South Africa because of Apartheid.

Now, according to you, we are to simply assume that the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing only in the case of the Israeli government and the IDF and the funds given to them by the JNF?

quote:
Get that old bicycle out Courage because according to your logic buying gas from your local Esso station might send money to an Arab country that then gives money to buy the ball bearings that are packed in the suicide bomber's belts of a friendly neighbourhood terrorist. While you are on your bike getting fresh air and excercise in our Canadian winter think of all the reforestaion and water projects that the JNF does.

I do ride a bike for reasons just like this, but that's beside the point. There are linkages and there are linkages. Some things are a lot more direct than others. That said, it is in fact quite normal for economic leverage to be used against states that fund the violence called 'terrorism'. And when these linkages are found elsewhere, the rubric of the 'War on Terrorism' is used to justify attempts to stop these chains of exchange.
What is good for the goose?

Do you support attempts to stop the indirect support of violent activity in this case? Why not in the very DIRECT case of the JNF and the Israeli government (IDF)?

quote:
Are you a 1st or 2nd year student?[/qb]

No. Apparently you missed your 1st year logic class a few times to many though. This is an ad hominem fallacy. By my count, that's at least 4 doozy fallacies in your last 4 posts alone.

[ 13 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 June 2004 07:39 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
[QB]

The Zionist Entity is the name the Israel bashers use when talking about Israel.


Could you please quote any one of the so-called 'Israel bashers' here using this terminology? Please avail yourself of the search function if need be.

quote:
And then, just think about it, people like Heph, Courage al-Qa'bong and Beluga2 will have to start focussing their attention on Tibet, Sudan, Congo, Egypt, Syria, Iran, China, Korea, Cuba, Libya, Myanmar, Nigeria, Kenya to name a few (in no particular order.)

Right. Even if you had any idea what any of us are up to in our actual lives this argument still falls flat. There are many reasons that someone might take an interest in a particular subject to the detriment of others. Your insinuation that this is due to some kind of antisemitism is unsubstantiated slander.

So much hand-waving.

Look here, pay attention to the watch in my left hand....

Dude. Where's my wallet?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 June 2004 07:43 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
[QB]

Courage, you're a mensch, but this one cracked me up.


Target successfully hit, then.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 07:47 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Courage, if you would have been one of my grad students I would have sent you back to high school long ago.

I think I saw one of your JNF tanks once with the pine tree deodorizer hanging from the rear-view mirror. It was being run by a crew of blood thirsty Zionists trying to hurt as many Palestinians as they could before the warranty expired on their JNF tank. Amazing how those two dollar trees add up and how quickly you can buy a tank with Zionist Entity green stamps.

When you have learned the history and inner workings of the JNF and the structure and relationship of the KKL to the Israeli government come back and debate me. I'm sure you can find some information on the net or maybe some Coles Notes to make you sound pseudo-intellectual and half intelligent. Until then you are way of of your league.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 June 2004 07:59 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Brant K:
[QB]

And Courage as usual stinks up the joint by claiming that beheading gays in Saudi Arabia is "irrelevant" and " a strawman". These busy international human rights activists have " a long list of pressing concerns", and atrocities against homosexuals in Syria or Saudi Arabia or Iran just don't rate. Two wrongs don't make a right, he soothes, as he gets on with his main objective, destroying the Israeli state.


The fact that horrible things are carried out in Saudi Arabia is quite irrelevent to the question of whether or not the Mayor of Jerusalem, and the community he has been elected to represent - deserve our oppobrium for homophobic bigotry. It is furthermore quite irrelevent to the question of what kind of response should be made to the Mayor's comments - you know, the rather elusive topic of this thread.

In fact, I did not call this argument a strawman, but a red-herring. The strawman is the claim that Hephaestion's comments are directed at 'the State of Israel' generally and not the Mayor, and his community, specifically. Read more carefully, Brant. It'll help us move along here.

This does not, however, speak to the amount of concern I - or others - may have for such acts of homophobic violence taking place in Saudi Arabia. Suggesting that the inclusion of this detail is irrelevent to the current argument is much different than suggesting that the irrelevent act is morally okay. The argument that it is 'irrelevent' simply means that it has no place in this specific discussion except as a diversionary procedure.

One which you repeat in your own post.

Moreover, your entire position (and that of Starbuck) is based on the wobbily assumption that it is impossible to be against both the bigotted comments made by the Mayor of Jerusalem, and the execution of Saudis for sodomy.

It's not impossible at all. Moreover, in order to have any kind of directed discussion, we need to narrow the bounds a little. It is not necessary to mention every depraved act previously and/or currently occuring or apt to occur in the future in any conversation about the moral implication of an isolated act.

You don't show up at a Tupperware party and start talking Amway.....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 13 June 2004 08:02 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
So, SB—

1. IS The Mayor of Jerusalem an intolerant bigot or not?

2. ARE the Orthodox Jews who were protesting homophobic and intolerant or not?

3. IS this type of language and behaviour acceptable or not?

Stop avoiding the point of this friggin' thread, PLEASE!!!!!


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 13 June 2004 08:07 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
[QB]Courage, if you would have been one of my grad students I would have sent you back to high school long ago.

I think I saw one of your JNF tanks once with the pine tree deodorizer hanging from the rear-view mirror. It was being run by a crew of blood thirsty Zionists trying to hurt as many Palestinians as they could before the warranty expired on their JNF tank. Amazing how those two dollar trees add up and how quickly you can buy a tank with Zionist Entity green stamps.


No strawman is safe when Starbuck is here.

The would-be professor apparently has privy knowledge to the inner-sanctums of the JNF, and what's more, managed to eek out a career training grad students without a basic knowledge of argumentative fallacies.


quote:
When you have learned the history and inner workings of the JNF and the structure and relationship of the KKL to the Israeli government come back and debate me.

You've displayed no privy knowledge. What's more, this self-satisfied preening doesn't go anywhere near making your case against Hephaestion, or me, for that matter.

quote:
I'm sure you can find some information on the net or maybe some Coles Notes to make you sound pseudo-intellectual and half intelligent. Until then you are way of of your league.

Yeah, I can hardly handle the level of discourse you're pouring out in this chat forum. Whoo-hee, I can hardly keep up with the delicate tropes of your intellectual ballet....

I note that you have a) no response to the charge that your argument consists of a group of fallacies.

b) that you have yet to provide evidence that any of the 'Israel bashers' here on this forum use the term 'Zionist Entity' or harbour the antisemitic feelings that you connect with this terminology.

c) provided no special privy information about the JNF to demonstrate that their relationship to the Israeli state does not function in the way in which I have suggested.

But other than that, you're blinding us all with your intellectual acumen, Professor...

[ 13 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 08:40 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Heph,

Have your mommy show to use the scroll bar on your computer.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 08:49 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Courage, were those "cowardly 19 year old soldiers" that kicked you driving their shiny JNF tanks with the pine air deodorizer? If so, I'm sure you must have noticed the "donated by Canadians" sign on the sides.

I'm patient, e-mail me when you have the evidence of JNF Canada purchasing tanks for Israel. Until then you get an F.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 13 June 2004 08:49 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

You might want to consider having an adult read your posts before pressing the add reply button.

If you would have been one of my grad students I would have sent you back to high school long ago.

Have your mommy show to use the scroll bar on your computer.


Seems like someone could use a Dale Carneigie course.

http://www.westegg.com/unmaintained/carnegie/win-friends.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 13 June 2004 09:14 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
Heph,

Have your mommy show to use the scroll bar on your computer.



Oooooooo.... an ad hominem attack by way of a sentence fragment. That hurts... Must mean you're feeling the pressure, SB, when you start to drop out words.

Now, a quick point. Going back a ways, you wrote:

quote:

There are thousands of Arabs that live in Jerusalem and since we now know how sodomists are beheaded in the friendly kingdom of Saudi Arabia should one assume that the Muslim view is any different than the Orthodox Jewish view?


PSSST: Generally, we prefer to be called either:
• gay
• queer, or
• homosexual

Now, sodomy is the act of anal sex, (I'm not sure about the term "sodomists" as I'm not familiar with it.) But if you MEANT to use the word sodomites, I would caution you about a couple of things:

• that word is out-of-date and soooooooo "Old Testament"...
• only the really fundamentalist crazy bigots still use that word to describe all us queers now
• I wouldn't want anyone to make a mistake and accuse you of anything unfairly, so please, for your own sake, call me either "gay" or "queer" from here on in. (I just *know* you'll get the hang of it soon, after managing all those big terms like "Zionist Entity")

But I've gone and got all side-tracked. Heee-heee-heee. What a silly goose I am...

NOW..., to get back to THE POINT OF THIS FRIGGIN' THREAD...

quote:

1. IS The Mayor of Jerusalem an intolerant bigot or not?

2. ARE the Orthodox Jews who were protesting homophobic and intolerant or not?

3. IS this type of language and behaviour acceptable or not?



From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 09:54 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Josh,

You missed these:
The guy's a bigoted piece of slime.

Macabee, you are soooo full of it!

So stop trying to protect fucked-up bigots with a cloak of religious self-righteousness and veiled insinuations of anti-Jewishness.

You almost had me up until this piece of snottiness:

One can do naught but pity him, and hope modern medical science can soon find some means of alleviating his suffering.

Fucking Christ on a crutch, Starbuck, what part of....don't you UNDERSTAND???

I prefer How to Talk Dirty and Influence People: An Autobiographyhttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671751085/103-8849298-9139843?v=glance


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5920

posted 13 June 2004 10:22 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
Heph,

quote:
• that word is out-of-date and soooooooo "Old Testament"...
• only the really fundamentalist crazy bigots still use that word to describe all us queers now
• I wouldn't want anyone to make a mistake and accuse you of anything unfairly, so please, for your own sake, call me either "gay" or "queer" from here on in. (I just *know* you'll get the hang of it soon, after managing all those big terms like "Zionist Entity")

I guess mommy hasn't shown you how to use the scrollbar yet so I will help you out just this once.

http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/saudi_arabia/saudinews15.htm

Sodomylaws.org


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 June 2004 10:50 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right, enough sniping on both sides. I read back through the thread, and actually, Starbuck WASN'T the first person to post something snarky, but Starbuck, you're going way overboard.

Everybody cool it, or the thread gets locked.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 13 June 2004 10:55 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Starbuck—

I guess you really are that dim-witted. Fine, I'll go slow, just for you...

1) This thread is not about the PA, or any other Muslim group, country, or organization;

2) This thread is not about the State of Israel

3) This thread is not about Zionism

4) This thread (believe it or not! ) is not about YOU

This thread is about the actions and statements of Jerusalem Mayor Uri Lupolianski.

If you want to discuss homophobia under some other government, in some other place, or even if it IS within the very city of Jerusalem, but it involves some other incident I URGE you to start another thread. I will reply on that thread.

If you continue to ignorge and evade these questions, and to engage in childish name-calling, I will conclude that you really are nothing more than an apologist for homophobic bigots, and I will deal with any future posts from you accordingly.

Now, if you have ANY intellectual honesty, and if you can concentrate long enough, I have been asking you repeatedly to answer three questions, which you have adamantly refused to do:

1. IS The Mayor of Jerusalem an intolerant bigot or not?

2. ARE the Orthodox Jews who were protesting homophobic and intolerant or not?

3. IS this type of language and behaviour acceptable or not?

I'll be waiting, but I suspect I know what sort of "answer" I will get...


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 13 June 2004 10:58 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
All right, enough sniping on both sides. I read back through the thread, and actually, Starbuck WASN'T the first person to post something snarky, but Starbuck, you're going way overboard.

Everybody cool it, or the thread gets locked.


No, that would be Brant, who appears to have ducked out back, brave lad, once the sniping he'd started took off.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 June 2004 10:58 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This thread is toast.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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