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Author Topic: Should settlers be declared terrorist organizations
WingNut
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posted 07 June 2004 09:02 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some here are indignant toward any suggestion that the two state solution is unworkable given the current situation.

It has also been argued that settlers in the West Bank and Gaza are a racist, minority.

More than that, they are a violent minority.

Qudestion: Should fund raising in Canada that supports Israeli settler organizations be banned as has been fund raising by Hamas and Hezbollah?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 07 June 2004 09:12 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 07 June 2004 09:17 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If it can be proven that the money is going to support violent activity I would agree without reservation.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 07 June 2004 09:24 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Canada should NOT be in the business of banning fund-raising, or any other kind of humanitarian support, that is defined as "evil-doing" by USian ideologues. Nor, for that matter, should we be banning humanitarian support for causes approved by the imperialist bastards.

We should fight the bans on humane support for Hezbollah and Hamas. We must not fall for the temptation to get even by fighting to ban humanitarian support to others -- we must not.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 07 June 2004 09:25 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can you prove that money given to Hamas or Hezbollahwill fund violent activity? From what I understand, they also have social service charities that give aid to Palestinians.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 07 June 2004 09:27 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingy, love, you can't think that it is right to let the imperialist bastards define the terms.

Let's fight on our own turf. Revenge is the death of democracy.

I love you, Wingy. And now I really am going to wash the kitchen floor.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 07 June 2004 09:32 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Either we ban funding to every extranational organization or we ban none. That is the epitome of an equal playing ground as I see it.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 07 June 2004 09:50 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is any JNF money spent in the occupied territories? If so shouldn't fundraising for the JNF be banned in Canada.

(I know, I know, all they do is "plant trees").


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 07 June 2004 10:32 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm with skdadl . . . funds for Hamas etc should be restored as they have a charitable arm, just as does Israel . . . sure some Hamas money goes to the violent groups in Palestine, but then so too does some Israeli money end up in the hands of occuping settlers.
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 07 June 2004 10:53 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
I'm with skdadl . . . funds for Hamas etc should be restored as they have a charitable arm, just as does Israel . . . sure some Hamas money goes to the violent groups in Palestine, but then so too does some Israeli money end up in the hands of occuping settlers.
Once again, and this shouldnt be hard to grasp, if anyone can prove that money going to specific settlers whos use it to foment violence, i would support that the group in question be banned from receiving the money.

While I disagree with the settlers politics, not all are violent extremists. Indeed some settlers groups known to be violent are already banned. As it should be.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 07 June 2004 11:18 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This discussion begs the question about state terrorism. The key question, without a solution to which there is no solution other than unending bloodshed, is the continuing occupation and Israeli atrocities that flow from that occupation year after year after year. It's the policy of occupation that is the terrorism.

BTW, if the Conservatives are able to form a minority government, can we look forward to another idiotic attempt to move the Canadian embassy to Jerusalem?

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 07 June 2004 11:25 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Once again, and this shouldnt be hard to grasp, if anyone can prove that money going to specific settlers whos use it to foment violence, i would support that the group in question be banned from receiving the money.

While I disagree with the settlers politics, not all are violent extremists. Indeed some settlers groups known to be violent are already banned. As it should be.


Forget about violent settlers. Do you think the JNF should be able to raise money in Canada if it goes to the West Bank and Gaza (thus supporting illegal settlements).


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 June 2004 11:28 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The key question, without a solution to which there is no solution other than unending bloodshed, is the continuing occupation and Israeli atrocities that flow from that occupation year after year after year. It's the policy of occupation that is the terrorism.

Exactly, and Canadians should in no way send any funds that aid and abet the Occupation.

As was the tactic used to deal with with South Africa, the civilized world should boycott and sanction Israel.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 June 2004 03:23 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I reject the notion of terrorist classifications for any organization. The principal purpose of the designation has been to create groups of non-persons without rights.

Such can be seen by the Bush adminstrations insistance that the prisoners encarcerated in Guantanamo Bay at Camp X-Ray are 'enemy combatants,' not civilians or soldiers whom are accorded rights under law. The term 'enemy combatant' draws it justification from the 'terrorist' classification.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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Babbler # 3980

posted 08 June 2004 04:58 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I reject the notion of terrorist classifications for any organization. The principal purpose of the designation has been to create groups of non-persons without rights.

Such can be seen by the Bush adminstrations insistance that the prisoners encarcerated in Guantanamo Bay at Camp X-Ray are 'enemy combatants,' not civilians or soldiers whom are accorded rights under law. The term 'enemy combatant' draws it justification from the 'terrorist' classification.



Bingo....

Are you familiar with Agamben's expositions on homo sacer?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 08 June 2004 08:22 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft:

Forget about violent settlers. Do you think the JNF should be able to raise money in Canada if it goes to the West Bank and Gaza (thus supporting illegal settlements).


Until the status of thet territories is resolved and a 2 state solution implemented I do not believe that Jewish charitable dollars should be collected for activity past the green line.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 08 June 2004 03:55 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
I'm with skdadl . . . funds for Hamas etc should be restored as they have a charitable arm, just as does Israel . . . sure some Hamas money goes to the violent groups in Palestine, but then so too does some Israeli money end up in the hands of occuping settlers.

How about fund raisers for the KKK, Hells Angels or Colombian para-militaries? I hear they do some charitable work too. And hey, who's to say if our dollars are going towards building new schools or blowing up school buses eh? You really are getting too radical chic here people. If you really want to help suffering Palestininans then give some money to the WHO or Red Crescent; if you want to stop the illegal occupation then lobby the UN or congress. The Hamas are fundamentalist thugs.


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 08 June 2004 04:37 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Erik the Red:

How about fund raisers for the KKK, Hells Angels or Colombian para-militaries? I hear they do some charitable work too. And hey, who's to say if our dollars are going towards building new schools or blowing up school buses eh? You really are getting too radical chic here people. If you really want to help suffering Palestininans then give some money to the WHO or Red Crescent; if you want to stop the illegal occupation then lobby the UN or congress. The Hamas are fundamentalist thugs.


A fair point. I think what's getting missed in all of this is that the IDF carries all the hallmarks of a so-called 'radical' group. Heck, these guys break international law every day. They kidnap people, carry out assasinations, torture people, kill and injure civilians and terrorise them with threats of violence and privation on a regular basis. Their members are imbued with a racist ideology of ethnic superiority and in practice they treat the Palestinians as virtually inhuman.

When does the funding stop to these bastards?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 08 June 2004 06:06 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree totally, the funding of Jewish settlements should stop and if the State of Israel carries on much further (which it likely will on its present trajectory) other nations might have to impose trade sanctions unilaterally, UN be damned if it refuse to move.

All I keep saying is that this issue should be framed in a way that doesn't automatically marginalize what I see as perfectly valid criticism of Sharons tactics, ways that leave some space for actual compromise and real peace, only way I've heard to resolve ethnic hatreds in the long run.

If the point here is only to underline the contradiction in our State policy, no problem, and if members want to question whether the US can dicate who is or isn't "terorists", or even if any such sanctions are threats to individual liberties, I'm fine with that too. I just get a bit uptight when it looks like fellow lefties are accepting one extreme to attack another.

There's an old Aboriginal belief I heard that says that one extreme often ends up supporting the other, violence on one side just hardens the resistence of other, and the only way to get around it is to learn how to fight your enemy without attacking the enemies person. Or something to that effect... Something both sides can learn out there I suspect, though Israel of course has the preponderance of power and therefore carries greater responsibility.


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 08 June 2004 06:29 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Erik the Red:
...Israel of course has the preponderance of power and therefore carries greater responsibility.

Not just that. If they think they're winning then why should they stop? Hence the need for outside pressure to get a settlement that is workable for all. And all includes the Palestinians.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 08 June 2004 06:39 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:

Not just that. If they think they're winning then why should they stop? Hence the need for outside pressure to get a settlement that is workable for all. And all includes the Palestinians.


Agreed.


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 June 2004 06:46 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It isn't necessary to identify settlers organizations as 'terrorist' in order to justify blocking aid to them. There activities are illegal under reslution 242 and the basic principals of international law. It is illegal to fund illegal activities. It might even come under racketeering law.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 08 June 2004 07:12 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Erik the Red:

How about fund raisers for the KKK, Hells Angels or Colombian para-militaries? I hear they do some charitable work too. And hey, who's to say if our dollars are going towards building new schools or blowing up school buses eh? You really are getting too radical chic here people. If you really want to help suffering Palestininans then give some money to the WHO or Red Crescent; if you want to stop the illegal occupation then lobby the UN or congress. The Hamas are fundamentalist thugs.



Yes. and I would assume that some of the charitable donations that go to the WHO, Red, Crescent, Red Cross, UNICEF, etc, probably end up in the hands of, or support the actions of, some pretty terrible people . . . some Hamas are fundamentalist thugs . . . some Republicans are fundamentalist thugs as well.

I'm not sure . . . which ones am I suppose to hate most, and why?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 08 June 2004 07:16 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Once again, and this shouldnt be hard to grasp, if anyone can prove that money going to specific settlers whos use it to foment violence, i would support that the group in question be banned from receiving the money.

While I disagree with the settlers politics, not all are violent extremists. Indeed some settlers groups known to be violent are already banned. As it should be.


And you have the marked bills found in Hamas leaders hands that show a donation in Canada made it to the wallet of a militant Hamas member?

I'm sure Israel knows how to launder it's money much better than Hamas, but that's about the only difference.

At best, every dollar donated to Israel is one dollar freed up that could go to supporting the occupying settlers.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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posted 08 June 2004 07:41 PM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
It is not just about charities.

Charities give money flat out, they are a direct way of funneling money to organizations. But money to charities represents 0.1% from the money that comes through corporations and governments, investments, etc...

McDonalds, for example, dedicates a sizeable amount of money for israel, both directly and indirectly (through investment), and a portion ends up in building settlements. It is tough to track what a giant corporations does with its money, it takes a popular move (people boycotting such companies) to stop this kind of money-channeling.
a couple of years ago, there was a popular move in the arab world towards boycotting companies that donate to Israel, lists of products from these companies were compiled. It turned out that so many products were on the list that it was kind of difficult to follow the boycotting campaign.

You can always tell a government to ban a charity, but can you tell people to stop eating hamburgers? I wonder...


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 June 2004 12:32 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And now we are getting into boycotting Israel altogether. The bounds of your animus when it comes to israel knows few bounds.

I urge you all to read Ron Rosenbaum's new anthology, "Those Who Forget the Past : The Question of Anti-Semitism ". In it you will find essays by everyone from Todd Gitlin to Edward Said on this phenomena and why we mustn't sweep it under the carpet. Most authors cogently address the manner in which some on the left engage (sometimes unknowingly/unthinkingly) in anti-Semitic rhetoric and behaviour.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 09 June 2004 12:59 AM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Until the status of thet territories is resolved and a 2 state solution implemented I do not believe that Jewish charitable dollars should be collected for activity past the green line.

So how do we stop Jewish charities from sending money to the occupied territories?


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 09 June 2004 01:30 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Most authors cogently address the manner in which some on the left engage (sometimes unknowingly/unthinkingly) in anti-Semitic rhetoric and behaviour.

Gosh, thanks! I found my tiny inner anti-Semite where I never knew one existed before.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 June 2004 01:59 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I dunno Mish. If you call me an antisemite one more time I think I'm going to cry.

Were those who advocated sanctions against South Africa ever called "anti-Boer" or "demonic anti-Dutchmen"?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 09 June 2004 05:01 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If we are anti-semites, then what on earth are Jew-haters like Ernst Zündel?
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 June 2004 06:14 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The case being made here Mac, is that the settlements are illegal, the settlers involved in illegal activities, those who send them money supporting illegal activities. Aside from vague charges of antisemetism, do you have any evidence to detract from that arguement based on legality.

This isn't anti-semetism, this is anti-ganagsterism.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 09 June 2004 06:20 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You don't actually read for content, do you Macabee?

Where in this:

quote:
a couple of years ago, there was a popular move in the arab world towards boycotting companies that donate to Israel, lists of products from these companies were compiled. It turned out that so many products were on the list that it was kind of difficult to follow the boycotting campaign.

does it say anything about us, as babblers, or even as Canadians, or even as non-members of the arab world (at least in my case) boycotting Israel? Huh?

I didn't think it did. Once again you smear us. How telling. And you do it by misrepresenting a comment to the effect that a boycott of Israel is virtually impossible.

Oh, but wait, you didn't actually, specifically call us antisemites. You just happened, purely by chance, I'm sure, to post a comment to the effect that "your" (mjollnir's? Or everyone else here's?) "animus towards Israel knows no bounds", followed by a request that we read some articles on antisemitism.

The only antisemite here is YOU, Macabee. Why? Because YOU make ME forget that not all of Israel is bad. Your constant harping about our supposed leftist antisemitism turns me even more strongly against the policies of the state of Israel. Your spectre of leftist antisemitism has become a self-fulfilling prophecy: every snide insinuation you post makes me less likely to defend Israel's right to exist. Every smug self-satisfied comment about people on the left hating Israel saps any sympathy I have left for the Israel people.

I barely care whether Israel survives as a state or not anymore, Macabee. And the blame I place squarely at the door of people like you. Congratufuckinglations.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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Babbler # 5617

posted 09 June 2004 07:07 AM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
The term anti-semite has been abused, and when advocates of Israeli policies throw it in debates, I know that they have no justification or anything of value left to say. The bigger problem with the gratuitous use however is the "boy who cried wolf" scenario:
Israelis apologists have always used it without distinction between bigotry against people just because they are different and contempt towards a state (yes, I am not afraid to say, contempt towards Israel. I have contempt towards Saudi Arabia, so am I anti-Muslim, or anti-Arab, or Anti-Semite for that reason if we would like to use the term accurately? If one wants to say yes, they can go ahead and make my day). Moreover, Israel always operated the policy of blurring the line between Zionist, Israeli, and Jewish: We are ALL the Jews and ALL the Jews are us (a la Ben Laden, and GWB), making it really hard for people to make a distinction between Jew and Zionist and Israeli. So back to the boy-wolf scenario: Israel has always got away with atrocities by labeling critics as anti-Semites, so I am afraid that the term is gradually losing any validity or true meaning, and one day when a true case of anti-Semitism emerges, The world would just dismiss as a devoid accusation, and simply look away. Bottom line, the biggest anti-Semites are the Israeli-Zionists with their policies, and for cheapening the term, putting the lives of Jews at risk on the long run.

[ 09 June 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 June 2004 08:33 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I barely care whether Israel survives as a state or not anymore, Macabee. And the blame I place squarely at the door of people like you. Congratufuckinglations.


I have another book for you to read. It is a social work classic whose message is as vital today as it was when written over 30 years ago.

Its called: "Blaming the Victim"

If it eases your conscience to blame me for your animus so be it.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 June 2004 08:35 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, you're such a victim, Mishei.

Whatever.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ScepticOne
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posted 09 June 2004 08:49 AM      Profile for ScepticOne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee,

Speaking about 'Remembering The Past', weren't Refugee (Concentration) camps a 'Never-Again' issue? Yet, they exist in Israel! along with Identity/travel-permit/cards!


From: Québec | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 09 June 2004 11:14 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We should be boycotting Israel in the same way we boycotted South Africa. I already do.

And smear me all you like. It doesn't change the fact that Israel is a race based state. In the defence of and promotion of human rights, I will accept your smears.

We will only ever be truly secure when we free ourselves from the tyranny of tribalism and racism.

I believe Jews and Arabs and all people should be able to live together, side-by-side as equals, in peace and harmony and without fear. And that makes me an anti-semite while a state that imprisons and brutalizes an entire population who are denied even the most basic human rights calls itself a democracy.

Go figure.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 09 June 2004 11:21 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:
The term anti-semite has been abused, and when advocates of Israeli policies throw it in debates, I know that they have no justification or anything of value left to say. The bigger problem with the gratuitous use however is the "boy who cried wolf" scenario:

I, too, expressed that fear at least a year ago, yet it didn't make Lakesh or Mishei quit with the smear jobs and intellectual laziness. Nor, it seems, does Macabee understand this.

I think you will not be the last either to worry about the boy crying wolf too many times.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 June 2004 11:45 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Yeah, you're such a victim, Mishei.

Whatever.


Call me what ever you want..clearly I am not referring to me but to ordinary Israelis who are so easily maligned here without a thought. Israel and Israelis (read Jews) face incredible derision on babble. You folks dont want to get it and thats what makes it so sad.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 09 June 2004 11:52 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am suggesting, in the spirit of international solidarity, a boycott of Macabee-Mishei-Udo. A complete group plonking. That way we can discuss issues of actual import without being derailed by his red-baiting crap; and just maybe he'll either a) learn something or b) go away: either would be fine with me.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 09 June 2004 12:00 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Honestly, I don't recall any derision of ordinary Israelis on babble. And any derision against Jews was soon identified as the work of covert bigots and neo-nazis, who were promptly booted off the board. I have friends in Israel, and have no reason to deride them, nor to see them blown up by a suicide bomber, any more than I enjoy seeing Palestinians' houses demolished, their orchards uprooted and cut off, or their children shot by nutcase settlers or "stray" IDF bullets.

Once again you are confusing three separate categories: Israelis, "Israel" and Jews. In a nutshell, I'd say Israelis refers to the population of the country (many Israelis are not Jews, but Muslim or Christian Arabs, and some Russians etc. with only a tenuous claim to Judaity). In everyday parlance, "Israel", like "France", "Italy", or whatever (or the respective capitals of those countries) is used as journalistic shorthand to refer to the government or state of those lands and government policy and acts. I most certainly do hold Israeli government policy with respect to support for the illegal settlements and refusal to withdraw from the illegally occupied territories in contempt. So do a lot of Israelis, as confirmed once again by recent protests.
Finally, "Jews". The question: "Who is a Jew", is age-old and won't be resolved here, as to whether Jews are people of the Jewish faith, of Jewish heritage or cultural background, or anyone Nazis or other anti-semites (I mean of the Jew-hating variety) would massacre or discriminate against due to their real or supposed Judaity. A majority of Jews do not live in Israel. Do I have to identify with the policies of Italy, Ireland or France because I have ties to those countries? I've often decried the repulsive Berlusconi and his fascist friends here on babble and elsewhere.

This is rather sad in the lead-up to the tenth anniversary of the single worst anti-semitic attack since the Holocaust, the AMIA bombing in Buenos Aires in 1994. A friend of mine (whose parents were Holocaust survivors) witnessed the aftermath of that horror. But since he hates Sharon and supports Palestinian human rights, I guess he is just another of us anti-semites and self-hating Jews.

I'll be starting a post on the AMIA bombing soon, by the way. I trust you people at the CJC will be commemorating it as well.

[ 09 June 2004: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 June 2004 12:15 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Linner:
I am suggesting, in the spirit of international solidarity, a boycott of Macabee-Mishei-Udo. A complete group plonking. That way we can discuss issues of actual import without being derailed by his red-baiting crap; and just maybe he'll either a) learn something or b) go away: either would be fine with me.
Love it what a democratic progressive idea!! Typical and sad.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 09 June 2004 12:18 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
I'll be starting a post on the AMIA bombing soon, by the way. I trust you people at the CJC will be commemorating it as well.
You will have to ask the CJC. I have family from Argentina so it is not soomething I will soon forget.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 June 2004 12:24 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
aRoused and liminal have expressed something I've been feeling over the last few months.

I used to be concerned about antisemitism. Now, whenever I hear the word my eyes glaze over and I think, "Yeah sure, I've heard that before..." and dismiss the accusation.

I used to think that Israel had to exist. I didn't like what had happened to the Palestinians since the Nabka, but I thought a just solution was possible that would leave the 1967 borders intact. After all, Jews have to live somewhere, and Europeans haven't been very neighbourly over the past 1000 years.

However, after encountering the racist face of Zionism, personified by Lakesh and his mishterious progeny, over the last couple of years, I don't care if Israel exists any more.

The only peaceful solution is the dissolution of this racist state and its replacement by a democratic, secular state.

That's a fine PR job you've done, Mish.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Starbuck
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Babbler # 5920

posted 09 June 2004 12:30 PM      Profile for Starbuck        Edit/Delete Post
JNF Canada does not send money across the green line.
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 June 2004 12:42 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
JNF Canada does not send money across the green line.
Starbuck, you actually think that people here really care. read these threads and get a clear vision of what they think of Israel. Answering this question is nice but so what?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 09 June 2004 12:45 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, you are hurting your own cause (Israel, I mean: I don't mean Jews, whose dignity is our cause, the cause of us all). Can you see that?

Why don't you sit down with the guys who write the talking-points and tell them that they've got it all wrong? That this is the wrong strategy -- red-baiting nice North American socialist human-rights campaigners?

As for this:

quote:
ordinary Israelis who are so easily maligned here without a thought. Israel and Israelis (read Jews) face incredible derision on babble.

That is simply filthy, Macabee. It isn't true; you know it; and you are showing yourself to be someone who will stoop to just about anything when he realizes his debating tactics aren't working.

For shame, Macabee. For shame.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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posted 09 June 2004 12:52 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Answering this question is nice but so what?
It if's so pointless, why do you persist?

From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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Babbler # 2938

posted 09 June 2004 12:53 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Call me what ever you want..clearly I am not referring to me but to ordinary Israelis who are so easily maligned here without a thought. Israel and Israelis (read Jews) face incredible derision on babble. You folks dont want to get it and thats what makes it so sad.


Yes, the inclusion of Jews in that statement is a particularly vicious form of libel.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 June 2004 01:33 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Macabee, you are hurting your own cause (Israel, I mean: I don't mean Jews, whose dignity is our cause, the cause of us all). Can you see that?

Why don't you sit down with the guys who write the talking-points and tell them that they've got it all wrong? That this is the wrong strategy -- red-baiting nice North American socialist human-rights campaigners?

As for this:

That is simply filthy, Macabee. It isn't true; you know it; and you are showing yourself to be someone who will stoop to just about anything when he realizes his debating tactics aren't working.

For shame, Macabee. For shame.


Really Skdadl, lets cut out the histrionics.

Why do you think such valuable leftists such as Phil Berger, Jeff Rose, Todd Gitlin, Phyllis Chesler,r. Laurie Zoloth, have castigated much of the left on their positions regarding Israel?

Ron Rosenbaum another progressive in his introduction to his anthology on anti-Semitism makes these valid points in discussing the fact that many on the left cannot distinguish that while the intent might not be anti-Semitic the effect certaily is. He quotes British historian peter peulzer who stated:

quote:
Some anti-Zionists deny their ]intent is anti-Semitic and are thus heedless of the effect of their double standard in singling out the Jewish state for human rights opprobrium ignored elsewhere. Effect simply consists ultimately of the resurfaceing of the underground repertoire of anti-Jewish sterotypes, instinctively understood by both the utterer and their recipient. [/QUOTE

Rosenbaum then goes on to explain:

[QUOTE] Reason, reasonableness, unreasonableness, and how they are defined are central to the argument over what is mere anti-Zionism and what is anti-Semitism. To many anti-Zionists, there can be no reasonable explanation for Israelis' "unreasonableness"-their unwillingness to trust 300 million Muslims surrounding them- except for some stiff-necked character apparantley intrinsic to Jewish nature. Or a malign Jewish disposition to torment those who share their land. thus anti-Zionism elides into anti-Semitism. To me the most perniciopus implication of some anti-zionists anti-Semitism, is in the implication that, somehow, malevolent Jews enjoy imposing an occupation with its attendant restrictions and suffering on Palestinians. Jews want to live in peace, but three wars in which Arab states tried to drive them into the sea, and a terror campaign by Palestinians who reject the idea of a Jewish state, have left Israelis with the tragic choice between self-defence and self-destruction.


Indeed in this insightful anthology Amos Oz, by no means a likudnik asks the most pertinant question in his assesmnet of the entire tragedy;

quote:
Would an end to the occupation terminate the Muslim holy war against Israel?
He is unsure himself but in this question Oz gets to the very root of the issue, IMHO. Later on i will give you the position of political analysts in Rosenbaum's book rergarding what has become a bit of a staple by some here, comparing Israel with nazism.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 June 2004 02:23 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting rhetorical strategy.

Mish gets boxed in on one front and so launches into an attack on Muslims.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 June 2004 02:48 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
QBong, I think I was careful to demostarte where this came from. People like Amos Oz and others from the left. That you cant even stand those who share the same political leanings as most here, that you are so ready to dismiss them as well, is proof of my ongoing concern..the blinders worn by some here on Babble.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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Babbler # 5617

posted 09 June 2004 02:51 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
He is unsure himself but in this question Oz gets to the very root of the issue, IMHO.

Yeah, the "very root".Those beligerent Palestinians of Deir Yassin and Lydda, who can not overcome Muslim Fundamentalism. Those people of Jaffa, how evil they are with their Muslim fundamentalism for not throwing themselves in the sea, instead getting thrown by Zionist terrorists(funny, the throwing people to the sea argument is used somewhere, but I just don't seem to remember who uses it. Oh yeah, the followers of those same Zionist terrorists who threw those "fundamental" Palestininans in the same sea).

And those Palestinian Christians. Don't get me started on the Palestinian Christians, who constituted 55% of Jerusalem's population in 1947. They are either Muslim fundamentalists in disguise, or have spent so much time with Muslims that Muslim fundamentalism rubbed off on them. It is contagious you know.

[ 09 June 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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Babbler # 3980

posted 09 June 2004 03:27 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Starbuck:
JNF Canada does not send money across the green line.

I guess those tanks paid for themselves....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 June 2004 03:39 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Courage, believe it or not the IDF has a bit of a budget.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 09 June 2004 04:05 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why do you think such valuable leftists such as Phil Berger, Jeff Rose, Todd Gitlin, Phyllis Chesler,r. Laurie Zoloth, have castigated much of the left on their positions regarding Israel?


Maybe they've been misled by wrongheaded spokesthingies claiming to represent Jewish interests?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 June 2004 04:13 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:

Maybe they've been misled by wrongheaded spokesthingies claiming to represent Jewish interests?


Frankly I give them much more credit for their assesment skills and political savy than you .

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 09 June 2004 04:19 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Why do you think such valuable leftists such as Phil Berger, Jeff Rose, Todd Gitlin, Phyllis Chesler,r. Laurie Zoloth, have castigated much of the left on their positions regarding Israel?

Ron Rosenbaum another progressive in his introduction to his anthology on anti-Semitism makes these valid points in discussing the fact that many on the left cannot distinguish that while the intent might not be anti-Semitic the effect certaily is.


Shorter Macabee: Any criticism of Zionism or Israel is anti-semitic in its effect. Therefore, neither Zionism or Israel should be criticized.

Seems like we've gone round and round on this before. This "objectively anti-semitic" line of reasoning is totally species. It is little more than an ad hoc rationalization. And I'm still waiting for you to retract your libel of babble.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 09 June 2004 04:20 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is there any point in continuing this? Why do we allow it to continue? We have a troll who insists on derailing every conversation we have, to further a frighteningly simplistic and blinkered agenda; he lies, blatantly and knowingly; he accuses people of a vile racism with absolutely no basis; worst, he gets away with it.

We haven't had a conversation about Israel-Palestine for months that hasn't turned into a conversation on the bogey-man of 'leftist anti-semitism'. Why should we put up with it?

I am anti-racist, as is every rabbler-babbler-leftist I know. We don't always have the same ideas about how to combat racism, but our priorities are in the right place. We will never be able to have the constructive conversations necessary while this complete and utter contemptible troll is allowed to change every subject.

I think we are doing a disservice to Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians, ourselves and our communities, by allowing ourselves to be baited in this way. It has to stop.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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Babbler # 5617

posted 09 June 2004 05:05 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
From my experience, all tactics used by Israel apologists can fall under 2 main banners:

1- Due to the dearth of any moral or ethical justification, they throw the accusation of anti-Semitism (I have reservation on an inaccurate term, which was moreover coined by a bigot. Talking about honoring someone!) But it escapes many that: anti-Semitism hurts Jews, and the Zionists have committed atrocities to pull the Jews in Iraq, Egypt, and Lebanon (bombs, killing of innocent Jews..ie, hurting Jews), who would then deserve the accusations hand down??
2- The other , and by no means less popular:

Palestinians: They stole our land
Zionists: But they didn’t take care of it, and didn’t “make it bloom”

P: They committed massacres against our civilians
Z: But they are Arabs, and Arabs abuse their women

P: They have deprived us of our humanity
Z: But we are the only democracy in the Middle East, and all Arabs are dictators, thus, they are prone to dictatorship

P: They have driven us of our homes
Z: But they are Arabs, and Arabs have 22 states. Is it too much to ask for a slither of land

So the Israel-apologist quintessential conclusion: It runs in their genes to hate us, and they do it because they are Muslim fundamentalist.

I usually tend to understand where most of the Israeli public is coming from. I always say that hate and bigotry is not inherent, and it is indoctrinated. I always thought that people don’t know otherwise, and all they know they’ve been taught. I always considered that according to what they learned (an Israeli friend told me that before he left Israel, he knew nothing about the Palestinians), they are antagonistic, and according to a compounded fear that was internalized after years of persecution, they are on the defensive since their fear is very legitimately founded. That’s why I never blamed most Israelis for their opinions no matter how racist they might be, and blamed the structure that circumscribed them and produced them.

BUT, when people know otherwise, and know very well that the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed, dispossessed, and thrown in refugee camps as the result of terrorism that founded the state of Israel, but still dismiss all this as irrelevant, and acknowledge it, but say that Israel as a Jewish state is the only thing that matters, like Macabee and his ilk, THIS, I can never tolerate, and such people, I blame emphatically, and describe them the way they really are, bigots.

[ 09 June 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]

[ 09 June 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jack01
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5211

posted 09 June 2004 05:13 PM      Profile for Jack01        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
BUT, when people know otherwise, and know very well that the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed, dispossessed, and thrown in refugee camps as the result of terrorism that founded the state of Israel, but still dismiss all this as irrelevant, and acknowledge it, but say that Israel as a Jewish state is the only thing that matters, like Macabee and his ilk, THIS, I can never tolerate, and such people, I blame emphatically, and describe the way they really are, bigots.

When someone disagrees with you, you resort to calling them a "bigot".

Does that make you a neo-fascist?


From: Windsor, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 June 2004 05:18 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uh oh, liminal; Jackanapes has got you there.

I'd like to see you twist your way out of that argument!


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 09 June 2004 05:20 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uh oh.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 09 June 2004 05:30 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Linner:
Is there any point in continuing this? Why do we allow it to continue? We have a troll who insists on derailing every conversation we have, to further a frighteningly simplistic and blinkered agenda; he lies, blatantly and knowingly; he accuses people of a vile racism with absolutely no basis; worst, he gets away with it.

We haven't had a conversation about Israel-Palestine for months that hasn't turned into a conversation on the bogey-man of 'leftist anti-semitism'. Why should we put up with it?

I am anti-racist, as is every rabbler-babbler-leftist I know. We don't always have the same ideas about how to combat racism, but our priorities are in the right place. We will never be able to have the constructive conversations necessary while this complete and utter contemptible troll is allowed to change every subject.

I think we are doing a disservice to Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians, ourselves and our communities, by allowing ourselves to be baited in this way. It has to stop.


It is absolutely no surptrise to me that you wish to remain wilfully blind even to those on the left urging you to see the light.

Thomas you call me a troll yet my position which you of course deride is consistant and has remained so my entire time on Babble. Is this the way you deal with issues you dont like? I guess it must be.

I have maintained the same position as have many other leftists when it comes to israel. You passionately hate my position so your idea is to boycott. Why does that not surprise me.? You accuse me of all kinds of things instead of looking at what I have said, that comparing Israel to anything nazi is abhorrent.

You wonder why I feel this way? Simple really, Let me quote Jonathan Freedland from Rosenbaum's book:

Comarisions of Israel to nazis says Freedland

quote:
...are firstly hyperbolic: no matter how bad Israel is, it is not the Third reich. Second, they seem designed to cancel out the world's empathy for Jewish suffering in the 1930s and 40s: under this logic, the Holocaust has now been "matched" by Israeli misbehaviour, therefore the Jews have forfeited any claim they might once have had to special understanding. The world and the jews are now "even". Third and worse, the Nazi-Zionist equation does not merely neutralize memories of the Holocaust-it puts Jews on the wrong side of them.... Jews end up with the gravest hour in their history first taken from them-and then returned , with themseleves recast as villain rather than victims. ...

It is a clear attempt to find our rawest most emotional spot and pour iodine on to it.

Yes Thomas hate me for pointing out in the long run that anti-Zionism (if one defines Zionism as "the establishment and support of a national homeland for Jews in Palestine"Collins)deny Jews the right to exist collectively.

And FYI for those who dont accept the fact that Jews are definitively connected to Israel, a 1995 survey by the institute for Jewish policy research found thatn just 3% of Anglo-Jewry had negative feelings towards Israel. For almost all else the Jewish state has become inseperable from their Jewishness.

So Thomas ignoring me and most jews like me won't make us go away, blinders or not.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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posted 09 June 2004 05:30 PM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I do not tend to post in this forum, but feel compelled to add my voice in this case. My sentiments on the Israel question tend to be mixed. On the one hand I recognize the great crimes perpetrated by its government upon the Palestinians (and I believe as a consequence its own people), and I disgusted by them on a seemingly daily basis. On the other, I am strongly sympathetic to the historical plight of the Jewish people, and am personally concerned for the future safety of my wife and soon to be born daughter (not that I believe the current government in Israel is helping safeguard their futures).

Regardless, I do not post here because of the nature of babble debates in this forum. Time and time again I have seen fools derail discussion with slander and slurs. Macabee and others have consistently obscured the issue at hand with their nonsense, and disappointingly I feel babblers have allowed it to occur.

While it may sound naive, I believe we must do as our mothers and fathers taught us to do: ignore them and maybe they'll go away. Surely they are not worthy of our time and energy.


From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 June 2004 05:38 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
True anti-Israel rhetoric should never be criticized.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
liminal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5617

posted 09 June 2004 06:03 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jack01:

When someone disagrees with you, you resort to calling them a "bigot".

Does that make you a neo-fascist?


No, my quasi-Haiku poster (who has just discovered double spacing), I label someone a bigot when s/he condones murder and ethnic cleansing if they serve to implement an agenda they consider more dire, more noble.
I label someone a bigot, when s/he think people are commodoties that can be toyed with and eliminated, disparaging injustice.
I label someone a bigot, when s/he resorts to a Machiavellian "ends justifying the means".
I label someone a bigot, when s/he minimizes human suffering.

So, then, I wonder who the neo-Fascist is.
Funny, eh?

[ 09 June 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]

[ 09 June 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 June 2004 06:09 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Curses! liminal, you made it look too easy!
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 09 June 2004 06:11 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Heh. Quasi haiku poster. Heh-heh.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 09 June 2004 06:23 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting to quote Jonathan Freedland of the Guardian, who has written so many scathing criticisms of Israeli policy and the denial of Palestinian rights. Here is one of the first hits goodling "Jonathan Freedland" and "Palestine": http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-freedland240304.htm

I agree with Freedland about certain unwise criticisms and the need to be sensitive to Jewish feelings about the Holocaust, but I doubt he was thinking of babblers when he wrote them. We've had plenty of threads honouring the memory of victims of the Holocaust and other genocides (as I write this, a humanitarian crisis looms in Sudan)...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 June 2004 06:30 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Interesting to quote Jonathan Freedland of the Guardian, who has written so many scathing criticisms of Israeli policy and the denial of Palestinian rights. Here is one of the first hits goodling "Jonathan Freedland" and "Palestine": http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-freedland240304.htm

I agree with Freedland about certain unwise criticisms and the need to be sensitive to Jewish feelings about the Holocaust, but I doubt he was thinking of babblers when he wrote them. We've had plenty of threads honouring the memory of victims of the Holocaust and other genocides (as I write this, a humanitarian crisis looms in Sudan)...


Yes, and sadly Babble has had its share of those who have done exactly what Freedland has so vociferously spoken out against, comparing Israel to nazi Germany. To steal a line from Skdadl, for shame, for shame!!

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 June 2004 06:37 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stealing lines from skdadl, stealing lands from Palestinians - it's all of a piece in the daily life of a Zionist...
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 June 2004 06:49 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee:

quote:
Courage, believe it or not the IDF has a bit of a budget.

Now we are getting somewhere.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 09 June 2004 07:27 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Courage, believe it or not the IDF has a bit of a budget.

Which can be the size it is because of massive gifts to the government coffers from the JNF that cover the expense of other civil spending....

It's like saying, "Sure I lent money to Sammy Knuckles, but it was for his house, and certainly isn't going directly to his extortion activities, so you can't really say that I support Sammy Knuckles bonebreaking..."

Phooey...

You're arguments don't even pass the common sense muster.

[ 09 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 09 June 2004 08:19 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm in for Thomas' mass plonk.
From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 09 June 2004 09:32 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 09 June 2004 10:00 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Courage, believe it or not the IDF has a bit of a budget.

Yeah, a budget big enough it represents something on the order of 25% of total government spending. That reminds me, I need to do my update.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 09 June 2004 11:31 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Which can be the size it is because of massive gifts to the government coffers from the JNF that cover the expense of other civil spending....

It's like saying, "Sure I lent money to Sammy Knuckles, but it was for his house, and certainly isn't going directly to his extortion activities, so you can't really say that I support Sammy Knuckles bonebreaking..."

Phooey...

You're arguments don't even pass the common sense muster.

[ 09 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]



Is that right? Are you privy to this financial information? Please do share.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 09 June 2004 11:57 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Stealing lines from skdadl, stealing lands from Palestinians - it's all of a piece in the daily life of a Zionist...
This is of course but another hateful statement that will go *whoooosh* over most heads here.

[ 09 June 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 10 June 2004 12:02 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's two in a row Macabee. Go for three postings in a row and watch your score really add up.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5052

posted 10 June 2004 12:15 AM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
Yes. and I would assume that some of the charitable donations that go to the WHO, Red, Crescent, Red Cross, UNICEF, etc, probably end up in the hands of, or support the actions of, some pretty terrible people . . . some Hamas are fundamentalist thugs . . . some Republicans are fundamentalist thugs as well.

I'm not sure . . . which ones am I suppose to hate most, and why?


Sorry for the delay. I'm not sure who's worse either, but I'd say that *all* fundamentalists are essentially alike beneath their tribal chauvinism and broader recognition of that might be the first step towards ending these mutually destructive tribal conflicts. Ending the occupation would be the key, but won't happen of course until more more Israelis start seeing this occupation as taking more from their security than it adds.

Re the Red Crescent and Hamas, I'd say the difference is that the RC was at least intended to provide humanitarian assistence for those in need, even if some funds are redirected for darker purposes, while the Hamas is expressly dedicated to the destruction of Israel, their charity work just PR. But then I don't believe that the majority of Palestinians necessarily support the Hamas. All I can think of at the moment.


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 10 June 2004 12:24 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Comarisions of Israel to nazis says Freedland

quote:...are firstly hyperbolic: no matter how bad Israel is, it is not the Third reich.


Strawman. No one is saying that Israelis as bad as the Third Reich . . . but, looking at the beginings of the Third Reich and heeding the "first signs" is a reasonable process of learning from history . . . or do you want the 6 million murdered Jews to teach us nothing?

quote:

Second, they seem designed to cancel out the world's empathy for Jewish suffering in the 1930s and 40s: under this logic, the Holocaust has now been "matched" by Israeli misbehaviour, therefore the Jews have forfeited any claim they might once have had to special understanding. The world and the jews are now "even".

So what he is saying is that until the "Jews" kill 6 million innocent souls, they should have a "free pass"?? And this is suppose to be an intelligent person?

quote:

Third and worse, the Nazi-Zionist equation does not merely neutralize memories of the Holocaust-it puts Jews on the wrong side of them.... Jews end up with the gravest hour in their history first taken from them-and then returned , with themseleves recast as villain rather than victims. ...

They were victims . . . they are no longer victimes . . . once being a victim may provide us with the bility to understand the reasoning behind their violent over-reactions, but it does not justify them.

All this guy does is attempt to make excuses for justifying Israeli violence by making claims that they should be allowed to be violent because they honce had violence out upon their ancestors . . . that doesn't wash with me!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 10 June 2004 12:50 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't bother. You can explain till you're blue in the face about how the importance of learning from history cannot be understated, and Macabee will still call you a closet anti-Semite.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 10 June 2004 08:26 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Don't bother. You can explain till you're blue in the face about how the importance of learning from history cannot be understated, and Macabee will still call you a closet anti-Semite.

As will many others on the left as long as you continue to use vile, insensitive and hateful comparisions to make your point. The left is not immune to anti-Semitism. If you continually and knowingly use nazi imagery as Freedland and others suggest ; you do so knowing full well the consequenses of your actions; you do so understanding that most decent people when legitimately criticizing Israeli policy would never deem it appropriate to use such vulgarity is engaging in anti-Semitic behaviour. It is as Gitlin, Freedland, Chesler, Jeff Rose, Phil Berger and many many more point out exactly that.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 10 June 2004 08:29 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yawn. Here we go round the mulberry bush...

This thread is close enough to 100 posts.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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