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Author Topic: Israeli Arab citizens are suffering from increasing racism
WingNut
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posted 01 June 2004 07:17 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The report's authors accused authorities, primarily the police and legal system, for being responsible for the climate of violence and racism against Arab citizens. This responsibility ranges from direct actions such as illegal and unjustified police shootings of Arab citizens to a tendency for the police and courts to relate forgivingly to displays of racism against Arabs by private citizens and public figures

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/434087.html

End Apartheid.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 June 2004 07:20 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are a Satanic and vicious (not viscous) evil, skewed, demonic racist, Wingnut.

Didn't you get the memo? You and Ha'aretz are only encouraging antisemitism.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 01 June 2004 07:26 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, I love this forum.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 01 June 2004 09:29 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think Haaretz will go down, historically, as one of the most most honest brokers in this whole sorry debacle. I have ideological problems with the paper's 'tilt'; but it has nonetheless provided the kind of forum for discussion and ideas that does not exist in the West.

If Rick Salutin (no wait, Jewish), er, Naomi Klein (no, dang it), ah, Judy Rebick (three in a row, hey?) um, well, Aaron Maté( . . .) yeesh, this is getting hard. Look, if a prominent Canadian anti-Occupation activist/journalist wrote this, they'd be called anti-semitic by Macabeeans in half a second. Bank it.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 01 June 2004 09:33 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, when it comes to offering a forum for criticism of Israeli policies, Haaretz has been first rate. There is nowhere any comparable coverage in any newspaper in the U.S. and Canada. However, the paper's generally neo-liberal economic worldview turns my stomach.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 June 2004 11:30 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Ah, I love this forum.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 02 June 2004 04:21 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Linner:

If Rick Salutin (no wait, Jewish), er, Naomi Klein (no, dang it), ah, Judy Rebick (three in a row, hey?) um, well, Aaron Maté( . . .) yeesh, this is getting hard.

Norman Solomon? Oh, drat.

Edited to add:
How does anyone know he's not viscous? Have you tried pouring him?

[ 02 June 2004: Message edited by: Rufus Polson ]


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 June 2004 06:59 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"If they had taken a pistol and shot us in the head, a bullet for each of us, it would have been less terrible than what they did to us. They took the bread from our mouths," says Othman Jabarin, a resident of the Jimba cave village in the South Hebron Hills.

Like sheep to the slaughter

End Apartheid.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 June 2004 07:15 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You folks are something else. This article is fair and accurate reporting of a news conference.

If these allegations are true then they are despicable. Thankfully in a free and democratic society like Israel such press conferences can expose these racist incidents. Oh that we would see a similar press conference in say, the PA or Syria or Iran or Yemen or Egypt or Chechnya or Russia or Algeria or Lebanon or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or ..........


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 02 June 2004 07:28 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They South Africa was free and democratic too. It is now. Israel can be also.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 02 June 2004 08:06 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Such high standards for 'freedom' and 'democracy' you have, Macabee. 'Course, if anyone here was defending those countries with sovereignty (the PA having little to no real power - the whole military occupation thing you may have heard about - cannot be included as an equal party in this list; course, that doesn't stop me from opposing Arafat and favouring Dr. Barghouti's PNI) you'd have a point. But we aren't. They only person defending an oppressive state structure here is, surprise-surprise, you . . . again.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 02 June 2004 08:26 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
You folks are something else. This article is fair and accurate reporting of a news conference.

If these allegations are true then they are despicable. Thankfully in a free and democratic society like Israel such press conferences can expose these racist incidents. Oh that we would see a similar press conference in say, the PA or Syria or Iran or Yemen or Egypt or Chechnya or Russia or Algeria or Lebanon or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or ..........


As usual, you just can't quit trying to make Israel look good by comparing it with the losers that come in dead last in every human-rights and quality of life statistic on Earth.

Haven't you learned by now that any idiot can compare himself with the jerk-off that never comes to class and bombs the final exam?

It takes a lot more work to validly compare oneself with the class egghead.

And I'm afraid that Israel's not doing very well compared to the other Western nations it claims it emulates.

Addendum:

Do you not even realize how lame your plaintive hand-waving is? Here you are, waving your arms and saying "See? Israel is good! It has reportings of these incidents yadda yadda da!"

My question is, if Israel is so good why the hell is this endemic discrimination even happening in the first place?!?!?!?!?

[ 02 June 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 02 June 2004 08:32 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee:
You definitely have a point. It is a lot easier to criticize the Israeli government then it is to criticize most of the régimes in the region. Just ask the Saudis, who can have no alternative but to express their hatred of The House of Saud with AK-47s. I believe that Israel's quasi democratic (I don't use democratic because I believe that there are very few true democracies in existence today) institutions can be used as a mechanism to end the conflict in the occupied territories. It is also part of the reason why we get so much news coming out of Israel about the 50 years war. That said, Israel's supporters often use the " democracy card" as a way of ignoring the truly ugly features of the Israeli state, i.e. 'sure we treat the Arabs as second-class citizens and bulldoze their homes, but at least Israel is a democracy!" or "sure the occupation is scarring an entire generation of Israeli young people, ruining the tourist trade on which we depend and taking money away from our welfare state, but gosh darn it, we're a democracy!"

[ 02 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 02 June 2004 08:41 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 02 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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posted 02 June 2004 09:40 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
You folks are something else. This article is fair and accurate reporting of a news conference.

If these allegations are true then they are despicable. Thankfully in a free and democratic society like Israel such press conferences can expose these racist incidents. Oh that we would see a similar press conference in say, the PA or Syria or Iran or Yemen or Egypt or Chechnya or Russia or Algeria or Lebanon or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or ..........


For Christ's sake. Lebanon, Macabee? Do you know what you're talking about before you lump countries in your propaganda package? Lebanon, as in the oldest democracy (and still functioning now) in the Middle East, when the constitution was put in 1926? What year was Isreal's constitution put? Huh??

What do you know about the Lebanese political system?
What do you know about the Lebanese press, which you just ignorantly accused?? Have you ever consulted AnNahar? L'orient-le jour?

So please, next time, before you throw uncritical statements unintelligently, do your homework!

[ 02 June 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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posted 02 June 2004 10:05 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Macabee:
You definitely have a point. It is a lot easier to criticize the Israeli government then it is to criticize most of the régimes in the region. Just ask the Saudis, who can have no alternative but to express their hatred of The House of Saud with AK-47s. I believe that Israel's quasi democratic (I don't use democratic because I believe that there are very few true democracies in existence today) institutions can be used as a mechanism to end the conflict in the occupied territories. It is also part of the reason why we get so much news coming out of Israel about the 50 years war. That said, Israel's supporters often use the " democracy card" as a way of ignoring the truly ugly features of the Israeli state, i.e. 'sure we treat the Arabs as second-class citizens and bulldoze their homes, but at least Israel is a democracy!" or "sure the occupation is scarring an entire generation of Israeli young people, ruining the tourist trade on which we depend and taking money away from our welfare state, but gosh darn it, we're a democracy!"

[ 02 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]



And what's worse, CMOT, is that they monopolized democracy in the Middle East, totally obliterating Turkey (yes, quasi democracy with the influence of the army, still, can an Israeli prime minister come from outside the army structure?? It is a prerequisite) and Lebanon (also a quasi democracy with Syrian hegemony, but still with independent judiciary system, independent press, and regular elections). Bottom line is other democracies exist in the Middle East. I don't think you'll hear that from Israel's mouthpieces, since it totally contradicts with the image they project of a democratic haven, surrounded by savages. Lebanon and Turkey may also not be perfect democracies, but neither is Israel.

[ 02 June 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 June 2004 11:53 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
still, can an Israeli prime minister come from outside the army structure??
Im not sure if you understand that Israel having a military draft basically means that anyone coming in to governement will have served in the IDF.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 June 2004 12:18 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hello, way to not answer any substantive points at all! You never actually acknowledge anything that might show even an incremental amount of tarnish on The Middle East's Only Democracy(TM).

An analysis of this phenomenon will prove interesting. Since the increment of tarnish may be expressed as dT, then the Macabeean equation which describes the desire to reduce the increment of expressed tarnish to as small a value as possible would be dM = - E dT, where dM is the Macabeean statement of acknowledgement of tarnish, and E is the constant of expression.

Thus, the integral of Macabeean-expressed acknowledgement is minus integral E dT, revealing that M = - ET, neglecting the arbitrary constant.

Thus, any added increment of tarnish leads to a negative overall acknowledgement. This is borne out by empirical data.

QED.

[ 03 June 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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posted 03 June 2004 02:13 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Im not sure if you understand that Israel having a military draft basically means that anyone coming in to governement will have served in the IDF.

Exactly.

However, Native-Israelis (a la native-Americans) do not serve in the army.
so, "anyone coming to government will have served in the IDF"
Native-Israelis do not serve in the IDF
Conclusion??

For more on Israel and its army:
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h050801.html


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 03 June 2004 02:29 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In fact all Israeli citizens must serve in the IDF no matter where they come from
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 03 June 2004 03:44 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
In fact all Israeli citizens must serve in the IDF no matter where they come from

Thinking of Thoreau.

quote:
Under a government which imprisons unjustly, the true place for a just man is also a prison.

From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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posted 03 June 2004 05:10 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
In fact all Israeli citizens must serve in the IDF no matter where they come from

But native Israelis are not conscripted in the army. Aren't they Israeli citizens?


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 03 June 2004 06:03 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It isn't as if any old reservist gets elected Prime Minister.

They're always high-ranking officers - Generals Rabin, Sharon, Barak, etc. - not little corporals or privates.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 03 June 2004 06:07 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Im not sure if you understand that Israel having a military draft basically means that anyone coming in to governement will have served in the IDF.

I'm not sure you understand that what's being referred to is long service and high rank--deep involvement in the military. People who served their mandatory time and headed off to civilian life do not generally seem to be high-up in Israeli politics. And they certainly don't become Prime Minister. Instead you get generals, ex-terrorists, ace assassins . . .


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 03 June 2004 06:15 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In fact all Israeli citizens must serve in the IDF no matter where they come from

Not orthodox Jews nor Israeli Arab citizens must serve at all. There are also other ways to avoid serving as well


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 03 June 2004 06:59 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:

But native Israelis are not conscripted in the army. Aren't they Israeli citizens?


From what I understand, there were very few Jews in Palestine before the mandate, and those that were living there had migrated centuries before. I don't think there has been a native Jewish population in the " holy land" for thousands of years.
Can anyone corroborate what I've said?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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posted 03 June 2004 07:01 PM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
native israeli=arabs

Me thinks


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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posted 03 June 2004 07:02 PM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post

[ 03 June 2004: Message edited by: mjollnir ]


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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posted 03 June 2004 07:03 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

From what I understand, there were very few Jews in Palestine before the mandate, and those that were living there had migrated centuries before. I don't think there has been a native Jewish population in the " holy land" for thousands of years.
Can anyone corroborate what I've said?



CMOT, if native-Americans refers to 1st nations in America, then native-Israelis refers to Israeli Arabs.

[ 03 June 2004: Message edited by: liminal ]


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 June 2004 07:05 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Aren't the Druze also not required to serve in the IDF?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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posted 03 June 2004 07:09 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Aren't the Druze also not required to serve in the IDF?

No, actually the Druze and the Bedouins DO serve in the army.


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 03 June 2004 08:18 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by liminal:

No, actually the Druze and the Bedouins DO serve in the army.


The Druze insisted on it way back in the fifties. I'm not exactly sure why. Dosen't there religion state that they have to be unflaggingly loyal to the country in which they live?
Druze have served in the Lebanese and Syrian armies as well.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 03 June 2004 11:31 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, then my memory played me false as to which two groups are not required to serve; I know some Orthodox sects aren't required, but I can't remember who else.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
liminal
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posted 03 June 2004 11:41 PM      Profile for liminal        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Ah, then my memory played me false as to which two groups are not required to serve; I know some Orthodox sects aren't required, but I can't remember who else.

Other than some Orthodox Jews: If it's not the Israeli Jews who don't serve in the army, nor the Druze, whom are you left with?


think 20% of the population.


From: the hole I just crawled out of | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 04 June 2004 01:19 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I should bash my head on the desk for having to be led by the hand to such an obvious answer.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 June 2004 02:53 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The soldiers tell of random violence and humiliation for the Palestinians.

One recounts how a comrade of his threw a stun grenade at Palestinian children ``just to relieve the boredom.'' Another tells of how his commander held up a wedding procession during a curfew, stopping the bride and groom, dressed in their best clothes, by taking away their car keys. He smiled as the bride cried.

A board displays more than 60 sets of car keys. A small sign underneath says ``In the West Bank, confiscating car keys is a common form of punishment.''

The soldiers' focus is also very much on the complex relationship with the settlers - many of whom are hardline Jewish nationalists.

Many of the pictures show settler graffiti calling for blood and revenge, another says ``Palestinians to the gas chambers.''


link


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 04 June 2004 11:02 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm stunned speechless.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 05 June 2004 07:01 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*Slight thread drift*
A guy I work with went traveling in Nepal and India a couple of years ago. He said there were tonnes of Israelis touring the region. They were young, fresh out of the IDF, but and here's the interesting part, many, according to him anyway, didn't seem to want to go home. They were heading New York, to be movers. The Israeli government is also quite upset with the government of India and wants the Indians to limit the amount of time which reservists can spend in their country.
It's heartening but also a little sad, to hear about how little enthusiasm they head for returning to Israel. It must a terrible place to live at this juncture. Bloody IDF!

[ 05 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 05 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 05 June 2004 07:20 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

From what I understand, there were very few Jews in Palestine before the mandate, and those that were living there had migrated centuries before. I don't think there has been a native Jewish population in the " holy land" for thousands of years.
Can anyone corroborate what I've said?


Pretty close. Until the 1850's there were only about 5-7,000 Jews in the Palestine/Israel area and most were descendants from fifteenth century European refugees, those usually considered "native Sabras". Remnant population from the Roman expulsion (and genocide) was largely destroyed, converted or driven out during the crusades. Was a large influx of European Jews escaping persecution near turn of the 20th century though and more in the thirties, comprising about a third of the local population by the time of the UN mandate.


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 June 2004 08:28 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Bloody IDF!

Don't blame soldiers.

They're just the dogs. Look at who is holding the leash.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 05 June 2004 09:31 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excuse me. I shall rephrase. Bloody generals!
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 05 June 2004 09:42 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Al: Your telling me that in all the time you've been criticizing the Israeli military industrial complex on this board, you haven't criticized the Israeli Defense Force in general, from Generals to Grunts?

[ 06 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 June 2004 02:01 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure I have, but the example you gave wasn't the IOF's fault, but rather the fault of the state structure that created the situation to which you referred.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 06 June 2004 02:36 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Subtle difference, but it is there. Look, some of the same soldiers that kicked the shit out of me were the most solicitous when they held us at a military base for an afternoon. One, fluent in english beyond even the Israeli norm, tried to joke with me; treating it like a couple good ol' boys after a particularly rough hockey game. It took me a while to see how they could do this: There I was, completely non-violent, but in a given context a 'threat to national security' and thus a target for abuse; after, as a prisoner, I was seen as a North American guy (white, priviliged, etc.) that every Israeli aspires to be.

They don't call the shots. I fired off an angry e-mail about Nuremburg excuses after witnessing my first check-point, and I stand by it; but with a little time I have become less angry at the individuals there and more angry at the structure that has allowed it to happen.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 06 June 2004 03:44 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uh, I'm sure everyone has noticed this, but
quote:
Palestinians to the gas chambers

!!!!????

I expect Macabee will be very annoyed at me for singling out this vicious little piece of settler graffiti. He'll be cheesed off, as usual, when I point out relationships with certain mid-20th-century anti-Jewish regimes, reinforced by the whole Warsaw-ghetto-like nature of many of the Palestinian refugee camps, and indeed the whole Gaza strip. I'm sure he'll explain that there's no connection whatsoever between Nazism and wanting to put people in gas chambers.

I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that not only is there a connection, but in fact it's a connection that is tacitly understood by some IDF and settler figures--that there are those who are at some level deliberately following the model, trying to replicate on the Palestinians what was done to their people, doing it in slow motion only because political realities (some degree of democracy in both Israel and the United States, for e.g.) make it difficult to go faster.

Incidentally, if there were ever a military coup or similar shift to overtly undemocratic rule in the US, who thinks Israel would follow quickly? With all the military control, about the only thing keeping Israel remotely democratic is the fear that going autocratic would be too much even for US public opinion, and the gravy train might actually go away.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 June 2004 06:14 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Along similar lines, the Star of David painted on the girls school was also chilling.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 June 2004 09:54 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:
Uh, I'm sure everyone has noticed this, but

!!!!????

I expect Macabee will be very annoyed at me for singling out this vicious little piece of settler graffiti. He'll be cheesed off, as usual, when I point out relationships with certain mid-20th-century anti-Jewish regimes, reinforced by the whole Warsaw-ghetto-like nature of many of the Palestinian refugee camps, and indeed the whole Gaza strip. I'm sure he'll explain that there's no connection whatsoever between Nazism and wanting to put people in gas chambers.

I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that not only is there a connection, but in fact it's a connection that is tacitly understood by some IDF and settler figures--that there are those who are at some level deliberately following the model, trying to replicate on the Palestinians what was done to their people, doing it in slow motion only because political realities (some degree of democracy in both Israel and the United States, for e.g.) make it difficult to go faster.

Incidentally, if there were ever a military coup or similar shift to overtly undemocratic rule in the US, who thinks Israel would follow quickly? With all the military control, about the only thing keeping Israel remotely democratic is the fear that going autocratic would be too much even for US public opinion, and the gravy train might actually go away.



Angry at the fact that there are some racist Jews who would stoop this low and angry that anyone here would try to generalize such behaviour to other Israelis.

Zealot racist settlers are a blip in Israeli society. A blip that too many people pay too much attention to sadly. They are bigots and some like those who would use nazi grffitti, in essence violate Jewish law. They are racists , sick freakin' racists and to generalize their behaviour or imply it in any way represents Israel is IMHO just as fucking sick!!


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 06 June 2004 10:19 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't see where Rufus claimed that the settlers "represent" Israel or Israeli society.

Rufus was doing a political analysis of the way in which accomodating the settlers deforms Israeli politics, in much the same way most of us would analyse the deformative influence on USian politics of the Christian right. But few would argue, I think, that the Christian right "represents" the U.S. or USian "society."

Yet, anyway.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 June 2004 10:54 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Zealot racist settlers are a blip in Israeli society. A blip that too many people pay too much attention to sadly. They are bigots and some like those who would use nazi grffitti, in essence violate Jewish law. They are racists , sick freakin' racists and to generalize their behaviour or imply it in any way represents Israel is IMHO just as fucking sick!!

Like Sharon?
Give me a fucking break. Call it wagging the dog call it what you will but the settlers are at the heart of the current conflict. The settlers are what prevent a two state solution or any solution at all. The settlers are what drives Israeli policy and Israeli atrocities in the West Bank and Gaza. The settlers are who soak up a great deal more of Israeli financial resources than their numbers could ever justify. The settlers are what drive Israeli society ever rightward into a racist, aparthied state.

And you say they are a blip? Take your fucking blinders off for just ten minutes. They are a fucking 30 year eathquake rising in intensity.

Bush and Sharon killed the two state solution, yes. But they killed it for your blip. The settlers represent a greater Israel which will forever deny palestinains a secure, continuous and viable state free of Israeli interference and harrasment.

The two state solution envisioned by Israel is nothing more than a system of Palestinain bantus.

The only solution is a federated, single state.

That is the legacy of a blip.

[ 06 June 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 June 2004 01:00 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A federated single state means the dissolution of a Jewish state. AIt is unacceptable. The continued advocacy of such a solution negates Judaism's need for a national homeland for Jews. It is today's anti-Semitism.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 June 2004 01:04 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Warsaw-ghetto-like nature of many of the Palestinian refugee camps
Nazi imagery yet again.

Clearly, the utilization of poisonous talk against Israel and Israelis (read Jews most will) is relished by some here on Babble. It is deeply anti-Semitic, revisionist history. Read Ringleblum on the Warsaw Ghetoo then hang you head in deep deep shame.

[ 06 June 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 June 2004 01:19 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, whether you can grasp it or not, most people here are trying to think and argue politics.

You are arguing something like ethnicity -- ? I don't know what to call it.

But that is why there is slippage here.

At least, that would be the innocent interpretation.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 06 June 2004 01:36 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A bit off-topic, but go read Max for a discussion of real anti-semitism. And it ain't coming from the left.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 06 June 2004 02:24 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Macabee, whether you can grasp it or not, most people here are trying to think and argue politics.

Then think and argue it without engaging in the use of false comparisions. The Warsaw Ghetto was so designated in order to ensure that the maximum number of Jews died prior to their final liquidation. What an abomination to now falsely and clearly malisciously use this same comparision to the Palestiniians.

This is not to say that the Israeli occupation is "genteel" and not imbued with traqgedy. Any Occupation is tragic and must be ended.

But those like Rufus and anyone else here who continue to use the Warsaw Ghetto as a comparision is knowingly and wilfully using evil imagery against Israelis (read Jews). They know it to be false. They know what the Warsaw Ghetto was if not let me help:

quote:
Smuggling began at the very moment that the Jewish area of residence was established; its inhabitants were forced to live on 180 grams [6½ oz.] of bread a day, 220 grams of sugar a month, 1 kg. [2.2 lbs.] jam and ½ kg. of honey, etc. It was calculated that the officially supplied rations did not cover even 10 percent of normal requirements. If one had wanted really to restrict oneself to the official rations then the entire population of the ghetto would have had to die of hunger in a very short time....


Ringleblum

quote:
At a gathering of a few people there was a discussion concerning what should be done if there were a chance now of sending out one person into the wide world. Everyone agreed that, at all costs, the world must be awakened to the process of extermination being carried out against the Jews. There was no need to take into consideration that this might worsen our situation; we have nothing at all to lose. The extermination scheme will be carried out according to plan, systematically, in accordance with the scheme set out in advance. Only a miracle can save us: a sudden end to the war, otherwise we are lost. Should one demand revenge? Some [of the people] held that we should. One should gather together the few tens of thousands of Germans in America, lock them up in a concentration camp behind barbed wire, without food or water, and let them perish of hunger and needs, as is done here in Poland. Others thought that the demand for retaliation would incite the Germans even more and bring about the total extermination of the Jews....


Ringleblum 2

quote:
The reasons for the establishment of a Jewish quarter in the Warsaw District, apart from general principles concerning ethnic restructuring (Volkstumsordnung) in this area, are as follows:

1. The German Army and population must in any case be protected against the Jews, the immune carriers of the bacteria of epidemics.

2. The separation of the Jews from the rest of the population, both Poles and ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche)4* is a political and moral requirement. Jewish thinking and action had up to now dominated the population of the eastern lands. The beneficial effects of the elimination of Jewish influence can now already be seen. If the German task of reconstruction is to be successful at all, then the freedom of Jewry to act in the area must be ended.

3. A further reason derives from the need to secure the execution of war economy measures and the safeguarding of the nutrition level in general by stopping the black market and the raising of prices.


Ringleblum 3

quote:
Again: everything is forbidden to us; and yet we do everything! We make our "living" in ways that are forbidden, and not by permission.

It is the same with community prayers: secret minyanim* in their hundreds all over Warsaw hold prayers together and do not leave out even the most difficult hymns. Neither preachers nor sermons are missing; everything is in accordance with the ancient traditions of Israel. Where there is no informer the enemy does not know what is going on. And surely no member of the Community of Israel, even if he was born in Poland, will go to lay information against Jews standing before their Maker.

Near the main synagogue some side room is chosen with windows facing the courtyard, and there hearts are poured out to the God of Israel in whispered supplications. This time it is without cantors and without choirs; there are only whispered prayers, but the prayer comes from the heart; even tears may be wept secretly, and the gates of the tears cannot be locked....


Kaplan diary

quote:
One of the most surprising side-effects of this war is the clinging to life, the almost total absence of suicides. People die in great numbers of starvation, the typhus epidemic or dysentery, they are tortured and murdered by the Germans in great numbers, but they do not escape from life by their own desire. On the contrary, they are tied to life by all their senses, they want to live at any price and to survive the war. The tensions of this historic world conflict are so great that all wish to see the outcome of the gigantic struggle and the new regime in the world, the small and the great, old men and boys. The old have just one wish: the privilege of seeing the end and surviving Hitler.

Levin diary

quote:
The name derives from the word "shmalts" (chicken fat). These people used to approach their victims with the words "Give me [money] for shmalts" – a kind of euphemism for their ugly trade. This was a terrible plague for the Jews who lived on the Aryan side. Apart from the deadly fear of the men of the Gestapo, the SS men and other Angels of Destruction, whom it was possible to recognize from afar, there was another form of inquisition which lay in ambush for these latter-day Marranos. It came in the person of the scum of Polish humanity, who made a business for themselves of Jewish lives. These "shmaltsovnikes" ["shmalts people"] were organized in whole gangs; hundreds busied themselves with this ugly occupation: to look for, recognize and catch those unfortunates who escaped from the ghetto and lived with Aryan documents, forced to live the life of genuine Catholics. The "shmaltsovnikes" sucked the last drops from them, and if they did not [pay] – they handed them over to the bestial Germans....


More on Ghetto and Jewish life

And even more

The more I read, the more I post, the angrier I become at those dark of heart who make comparisions between Israeli actions and the Ghetto. Anyone with even a minimal understanding of history will see the agenda of people like Rufus. It is wrong. He knows it you know it too.

[ 06 June 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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Babbler # 490

posted 06 June 2004 03:34 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then why do some of the things seen or read about the actions of IDF soldiers or the Israeli Government seem to evoke these comparisons in the first place?

I'm only surprised you didn't try to deny that someone blatantly said that Palestinian-Arabs should be sent to gas chambers.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 06 June 2004 05:53 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Then think and argue it without engaging in the use of false comparisions. The Warsaw Ghetto was so designated in order to ensure that the maximum number of Jews died prior to their final liquidation. What an abomination to now falsely and clearly malisciously use this same comparision to the Palestiniians.

No. This is false. The Warsaw ghetto was set up as a temporary holding place for Jews, until they could be transported elsewhere. Most of the concentrarion camps and Ghettos were set up prior to the Wansee conference where it was determined that the solution to the problem that the Nazi's had created by deproting and interring the Jews was to exterminate them on mass. This determination was made in early 1942.

During the period prior to this the Nazi authorities had little regard for the deprivation that the forced transfers caused to the Jews, and as a result large numbers died. The primary purpose of the camps and gheto's to "ensure that the maximum number of Jews died prior to their final liquidation." The purpose was to isolate Jews from the German and european population.

From The Wansee Protocol

quote:
The aim of all this was to cleanse German living space of Jews in a legal manner.

All the offices realized the drawbacks of such enforced accelerated emigration. For the time being they had, however, tolerated it on account of the lack of other possible solutions of the problem.

The work concerned with emigration was, later on, not only a German problem, but also a problem with which the authorities of the countries to which the flow of emigrants was being directed would have to deal. Financial difficulties, such as the demand by various foreign governments for increasing sums of money to be presented at the time of the landing, the lack of shipping space, increasing restriction of entry permits, or the cancelling of such, increased extraordinarily the difficulties of emigration. In spite of these difficulties, 537,000 Jews were sent out of the country between the takeover of power and the deadline of 31 October 1941.


Having created this logistics mess, the Wansee conference then determined an official policy of extermination.

Why is this important in this discussion? This is important because you are claiming that comparing the ghetoization of the Palestinian population does not bare comparison to the ghetoization of the Jews in Warsaw.

This is not the case when it is clear that the intention of the Ghetto in Gaza is to isolate Palestinians from the "living space" of the Jewish people. Likewise the original purpose of Warsaw Ghetto was similar, it was not "in order to ensure that the maximum number of Jews died prior to their final liquidation," but to isolate. The extermination was a later decision. Likewise, in so doing Israel is also causing deprivation, (which Israel does precious little to salve as most aid comes outside of Israel) and also, like the Wermacht, the IDF enters the Ghetto to conduct military operations against militant internees.

The comparison is apt.

Suggesting that militant activity against Israel is the cause of the enforeced isolation and subsequent deprivation is the cause of the suffering of the Palestinians living in Gaza*, is like saying that armed resitance by Jews living the Warsaw Ghetto was the cause of the suffering of the Jews in the Ghetto.

One asks, having created a logistics nightmare in Gaza, could there be a time when Israel chooses a more radical "solution" to the problem it has had a large share in creating?

The the common references to the "demographic problem," and common racism espousd by Israel Ministers, gutter graphitus saying "Palestinians to the Gas Chambers," and the Star of David painted on the doors of Arab insititutions (much in the manner of the Swastika painted on the doors of Jewish Insititutions by the Nazis) really has to make us ask: dare we ignore the warning signs, as much of the world did in 1936?

*Note: every single one of the 111 Palestinians killed in May, not one was killed inside Israeli 1967 border.

[ 06 June 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 06 June 2004 06:51 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is today's anti-Semitism.

There it is, evoked yetr again. For advocating democracy.

Yet the raciost , supremacist movement, that in and of itself, is the primary argument against a two state solution and why such a solution will never be viable, and itself, which has invoked Nazi imagery in its propaganda against a people it views as inferior, is dismissed as just a blip.

You have no right macabee to accuse anyone of racism when you continue to apologize for it and seek to minimize the very ugliness and prevalence of it. You should be deeply, deeply ashamed.

And how dare you invoke antisemitism when you have forgotten what "Never Again" is supposed to mean.

Go and reacquaint yourself with nazism and teh holocaust and then come back here and dismiss the settlers as a blip and apologize for the racist policies of Israel.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 06 June 2004 08:07 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Having created this logistics mess, the Wansee conference then determined an official policy of extermination.

Why is this important in this discussion? This is important because you are claiming that comparing the ghetoization of the Palestinian population does not bare comparison to the ghetoization of the Jews in Warsaw.

This is not the case when it is clear that the intention of the Ghetto in Gaza is to isolate Palestinians from the "living space" of the Jewish people. Likewise the original purpose of Warsaw Ghetto was similar, it was not "in order to ensure that the maximum number of Jews died prior to their final liquidation," but to isolate. The extermination was a later decision. Likewise, in so doing Israel is also causing deprivation, (which Israel does precious little to salve as most aid comes outside of Israel) and also, like the Wermacht, the IDF enters the Ghetto to conduct military operations against militant internees.

The comparison is apt.

Suggesting that militant activity against Israel is the cause of the enforeced isolation and subsequent deprivation is the cause of the suffering of the Palestinians living in Gaza*, is like saying that armed resitance by Jews living the Warsaw Ghetto was the cause of the suffering of the Jews in the Ghetto.

One asks, having created a logistics nightmare in Gaza, could there be a time when Israel chooses a more radical "solution" to the problem it has had a large share in creating?

The the common references to the "demographic problem," and common racism espousd by Israel Ministers, gutter graphitus saying "Palestinians to the Gas Chambers," and the Star of David painted on the doors of Arab insititutions (much in the manner of the Swastika painted on the doors of Jewish Insititutions by the Nazis) really has to make us ask: dare we ignore the warning signs, as much of the world did in 1936?

*Note: every single one of the 111 Palestinians killed in May, not one was killed inside Israeli 1967 border.

[ 06 June 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


Only at the beginning Cueball. The aim waat the end was to ensure thatas many Jews as possible died so that the gas chambers did not have to work overtime. Checkout Raul Hilberg and Christopher Browning for the authoritative word on nazi Ghettos.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 06 June 2004 08:10 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You have no right macabee to accuse anyone of racism when you continue to apologize for it and seek to minimize the very ugliness and prevalence of it. You should be deeply, deeply ashamed.

And how dare you invoke antisemitism when you have forgotten what "Never Again" is supposed to mean.

Go and reacquaint yourself with nazism and teh holocaust


No its you and your friends that need education noot me.

I align myself with Jews and Jewish groups who know full well what anti-Semitism is and what it means. You have sadly much to learn but I fear you will continue down your own path. Fine by me.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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Babbler # 5618

posted 06 June 2004 08:43 PM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
He who understands Injustice, should never condone it, or worse, indulge in it.

But that was never the case with Israel.

So I guess People like Golda Maer, Ben Guryon, Dayan, Sharon, Rabin, Perez, Natanyahu, Shamir, etc... never really understood the full meaning of the word Anti-Semitism, now did they?


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 June 2004 10:05 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I align myself with Jews and Jewish groups

I align myself with the human race against all racism. It is your path of separating faiths and tribes that worries me.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 June 2004 10:09 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The brave forces of Apartheid, kill a man in a wheel chair:

Haaretz


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 June 2004 12:38 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Get your terminology right, Wingy.

It's called "purity of arms."


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 07 June 2004 12:53 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Only at the beginning Cueball. The aim waat the end was to ensure thatas many Jews as possible died so that the gas chambers did not have to work overtime. Checkout Raul Hilberg and Christopher Browning for the authoritative word on nazi Ghettos.

Sad amd troubling that Israels ghettoization of the Palestinians, echos that of the Nazi ghettoization of the Jews. At least you can admit it.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 07 June 2004 01:52 AM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Y'know, it's one thing to compare Israeli policy to South African Appartheid, but it's another thing all together to compare it to Nazi Germany and the Warsaw ghettos. There is no comparison there. None. All this kind of overblown rhetoric does is deligitimize anything else that leftwing critics of Israel might have to say about the ugly situation out there. It's like trying to portray the terror tactics of Hamas or Jihad as just another tactic of war, as some dumbshit academic hotheads are known to do.

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: Erik the Red ]

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: Erik the Red ]

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: Erik the Red ]


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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Babbler # 1962

posted 07 June 2004 06:30 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of comparing it to South Africa...

Bantustans

quote:
U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell has cautioned against division of the West Bank into "bantustans," declaring that a future Palestinian state must be built of contiguous areas.

"In the West Bank, you've got to have a coherent, contiguous land, which, joined with Gaza, would constitute the state of Palestine," Powell told CNN television from France, where he accompanied President George W. Bush during celebrations of the 60th anniversary of D-Day.



From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 07 June 2004 09:12 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Eric: Yes you are quite right and it is one of the key reasons that many stalwart Jewish leftists are abandoning or feel alienated more and more from the Left. Examples, Todd Gitlin, Jeff Rose, Dr. Phil Berger, Clay Ruby, Bob Rae, and many others.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
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Babbler # 5618

posted 07 June 2004 10:37 AM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Erik the Red:
Y'know, it's one thing to compare Israeli policy to South African Appartheid, but it's another thing all together to compare it to Nazi Germany and the Warsaw ghettos. There is no comparison there. None. All this kind of overblown rhetoric does is deligitimize anything else that leftwing critics of Israel might have to say about the ugly situation out there. It's like trying to portray the terror tactics of Hamas or Jihad as just another tactic of war, as some dumbshit academic hotheads are known to do.

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: Erik the Red ]

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: Erik the Red ]

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: Erik the Red ]


Erik,

What israel has done wasn't done in a year or two. You have to look at what israel has done over the past 56 years and then you'll see that the result is eye-popping.
Sometimes, there are fates worse than death and that is what people fail to understand. You just can't possibly know how much the land means to palestinians, it is their heart, soul, their everything. Have you ever heard the Palestinian national anthem? It is called "My Homeland, My Homeland", if you do, then you'll understand the crime that was committed against them, by the whole world.
56 Years, and the world still turns its blind eye, and still talks about "understanding both sides of the conflict", what both sides?
Here, we are talking about a systematic destruction of a civilization, over 56 years. Do you know were the palestinians were pre-1948 and were they are now? You might look at them now and see savage people who support the likes of hamas and I-jihad, but do you know that 56 years ago, in lebanon, the American University of Beirut had 2 kinds of professors: Palestinian and American!
Their land was stolen, their civilization destroyed, and now, they are treated like beggers who should be grateful for the 300km2-bone that will be thrown to them.
But the world is silent,

and if someone speaks up, he's anti-semite

Why? Because he doesn't believe in a 4000 year old promise from an unjust God!
Why? Because he believes that a state is a state for its citizens, regardless of religion and race.
Why? Because he believes that what was stolen should be given back to its rightful owner.

Wake Up!


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 07 June 2004 01:47 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why? Because he believes that what was stolen should be given back to its rightful owner.

Firstly who was it stolen from in the first place?

Secondly, you would advocate therefore that the USA and Canada be given back to the Aboriginal people? That we should dismantle/destroy what has been established and return the land ?

Clearly, our Aboriginal people had this land stolen from them. They were ethnically cleansed and in some cases wiped out. There are however many still remaining in reserves (ie refugee camps) and while they do not go around murdering other innocent Canadians to re-gain what was stolen from them surely they deserve to have their land fully restored?


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 07 June 2004 02:20 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Get it yet, MacMishudo?
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 07 June 2004 02:21 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, have you ever tried that argument with a Palestinian grandfather still clutching his British mandate deed for a long-lost home in Israel? Using the crimes committed by European colonizers in North America to shut down debate on crimes committed by European colonizers in the Middle East is a curious tactic. Pointing out that the current non-violent protests of North American Indians is not helping the Indian cause is even more curious, considering your stated desire to stem violence against Israelis.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 07 June 2004 02:39 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Erik wasn't talking about the disenfranchisement of the Palestinians by Fascists like Menachim Begin. We all agree about that. He was talking about the overuse of Holocaust analogies in the Palestinian/Israeli debate. Quite frankly, I agree with him. There are no gas chambers in the West Bank. What the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians is brutal, amoral and vicious, but but there are very few comparisons that can be drawn between it and the second great genocide of the 20th century Comparing the two is like comparing the massacre at Halabja to the Rwandan genocide. That kind of rhetoric only distracts people from the issues that are at stake in this conflict, (the right of return, Palestinian statehood etc.)

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 07 June 2004 02:55 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There are no gas chambers in the West Bank(yet).
This is the real distraction. This over-the-top isinuation that Israelis (read the Jews) would ever GAS Palestinians. What SHIT!!! And people wonder here why anti-Semitism often comes up in discussing these issues.

Anyone suggesting such a scenario does so from a deep animus of Israel, Judaism and the Jewish people. It is just the stuff that neo-nazis write all the time.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 07 June 2004 03:24 PM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A federated single state means the dissolution of a Jewish state. AIt is unacceptable. The continued advocacy of such a solution negates Judaism's need for a national homeland for Jews. It is today's anti-Semitism.

so secularism = antisemitism?

...do you even read what you write, macabee?

quote:
This is the real distraction. This over-the-top isinuation that Israelis (read the Jews) would ever GAS Palestinians. What SHIT!!! And people wonder here why anti-Semitism often comes up in discussing these issues.

Anyone suggesting such a scenario does so from a deep animus of Israel, Judaism and the Jewish people. It is just the stuff that neo-nazis write all the time.


that over-the-top insinuation came from settlers, not babblers, macabee:

quote:
Many of the pictures show settler graffiti calling for blood and revenge, another says ``Palestinians to the gas chambers.''

From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 07 June 2004 03:32 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
that over-the-top insinuation came from settlers, not babblers, macabee
Those settlers are zealot racists. That anyone would extrapolate what they say and suggest that all Israelis (read Jews) believe that way is as bigoted as they are.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 07 June 2004 03:44 PM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Those settlers are zealot racists. That anyone would extrapolate what they say and suggest that all Israelis (read Jews) believe that way is as bigoted as they are.

on this i agree. now, please tell me how it is that you can easily see the difference between hate-mongers who want to gas palestinians, and non-bigotted jews/israelis who happen to believe in the jewish state; yet you see no difference between antisemites who want to destroy jews along with the jewish state, and secularists who believe no state should be based on exclusivist religious/racial/etc. foundations?


From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 07 June 2004 04:00 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Those settlers are zealot racists. That anyone would extrapolate what they say and suggest that all Israelis (read Jews) believe that way is as bigoted as they are.

Oh, come off it, Macabee. The Israeli Government has been falling all over itself to give settlers everything they want.

Heavily subsidized moving expenses. Infrastructure construction without charge for new settlements which get created. Beautiful new well-paved roads just for the Israeli settlers, and from which the Palestinian-Arabs are blocked. Et cetera, ad nauseam, and so on.

To claim that the settlers are a mere minority is disingenuous because that statement ignores the fact that they have the Israeli Government in the palm of their collective hands. Or did you forget the news article I or someone else pasted from Ha'aretz which discussed a man who is in a very real sense the driving force of the entire settlement movement, and this man's very close connections to Ariel Sharon and other high echelons of the Israeli Government.

Furthermore, re the comparisons being made - if you claim these parallels are invalid, then why do I keep seeing them, even though I would like to not see them?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 07 June 2004 05:08 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

Oh, come off it, Macabee. The Israeli Government has been falling all over itself to give settlers everything they want.

Heavily subsidized moving expenses. Infrastructure construction without charge for new settlements which get created. Beautiful new well-paved roads just for the Israeli settlers, and from which the Palestinian-Arabs are blocked. Et cetera, ad nauseam, and so on.

To claim that the settlers are a mere minority is disingenuous because that statement ignores the fact that they have the Israeli Government in the palm of their collective hands. Or did you forget the news article I or someone else pasted from Ha'aretz which discussed a man who is in a very real sense the driving force of the entire settlement movement, and this man's very close connections to Ariel Sharon and other high echelons of the Israeli Government.

Furthermore, re the comparisons being made - if you claim these parallels are invalid, then why do I keep seeing them, even though I would like to not see them?



Conway,
we are talking about insinuations that Israel WOULD GAS PALESTINIANS. Anyone making such an insinuation is an outright anti-Semite.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 07 June 2004 05:20 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, get it through your thick head, it was settlers who made the "insinuation" by outright saying it with grafitti.

And quit denying the problem. Settlers maybe a racist minority but all of Israeli society is currently geared around supporting them.

You call everyone an antisemitic while constantly trying to minimize the terrible and ugly consequences of Israeli racism which is rife and could today, and any day, be dealt with by ending all support, financial and economic, for settlers.

Would you agree to having settlers declared as terrorists and thus cutting off thier fund raising in Canada as is Hamas and Hezbollah?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 07 June 2004 05:27 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I never said Israelis aren't capable of a Nazi style genocide. I simply stated that there are no gas chambers in the West Bank. We are all (Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu) capable of such atrocities. Now, whether a Palestinian Holocaust will occur is another matter entirely.

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 07 June 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
I never said Israelis aren't capable of a Nazi style genocide. I simply stated that there are no gas chambers in the West Bank. We are all (Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu) capable of such atrocities. Now, whether a Palestinian Holocaust will occur is another matter entirely.

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]



NO, you used the word "YET" as if to imply that gas chambers are a possibility. Wingnut and others can obfuscate all they want here on this but READ THE DAMN THREAD you left the clear impression that Israelis could gas Palestinians. This is ugly anti-Semitism.

I know you were doing an original take off on the racist scrawlings of some extremists but you wrote the word "YET" no one else...it is YOUR insinuation not the extremist racists. It is shameful , ugly and unacceptable. That anyone here would try to gloss over this is just as reprehensible!!


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 07 June 2004 06:32 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[Glaswegian accent] Aw, for fuck sake. Don't be such a Nyaff.[/Glaswegian accent]

Look man, you cannot possibly convince me that the IDF is incapable of building and operating gas chambers to deal with the Palestinians. Will that happen? Probably not. But it is still a remote possibility.

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 07 June 2004 06:33 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, Macabee, I think you are one babbler whose vociferosity does more harm to your own cause than good. I think babble has gotten worse for you over time, and I think it's largely your own fault.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 07 June 2004 06:37 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mandos: can we figure out a way of discussing what you just said? Not about Macabee, but about what has happened to us as we fight him off? Because I agree: something has happened to us.

God, I hate marketing and PR. When I die, please engrave that somewhere for me. (There won't be a headstone -- I get scattered into a river far away.)


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 07 June 2004 06:46 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What is shameful Mishabee is how you responded to the sickening graffiti in Israel against Palestians and how your responded to the equally disturbing graffiti against Jews here. You brushed one off and launch into a tangent to tar us all as anti-semties, again, and with the other you wanted us all to rear up in horror over the it. It's no mystery which is which. You want to know why anti-semitism is on the rise? It's because you have changed the definition to encompase so many innocent people in your slander.

You sir, do not care about racism. Shame on you.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 07 June 2004 07:11 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I see I was right about Macabee.

On everything I said aside from reference to the Warsaw Ghetto, there has been no real discussion or challenge.

On the Warsaw Ghetto--it seems clear that the Ghetto, like much of what was done to the Jews in the Nazi state, was an evil that worsened by degrees. It was imposed and then the constraints and privations ratcheted up step by step. Macabee himself makes the key distinction between early and late phases.

When it comes to the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank targeted for squeezing by checkpoints, strategic settlement locations and The Wall, this looks very much like early phases, and the pressure has been gradually ratcheted up for a while. So from the beginning, largely shutting off normal economic activity and trade and drastically restricting water availability was normal. But at first arbitrary checkpoints that stopped people from working or buying and selling food were an outrage, as well as largely arbitrary indefinite detentions and torture. Then home and farmland demolition were an outrage. Then that stuff became normal and routine sniping of civilians was an outrage. Then all that was normal and levelling whole neighbourhoods and slaughtering peaceful protesters with missiles was an outrage. What will be normal in the end? And what will it take before Macabee's outrage ceases? Macabee appears to insist that Israel cannot be compared to Nazi Germany because of the actions of the late Reich, the last couple of years of World War II itself. So unless and until Israel has actually performed actions equivalent to those of the very last years of the Third Reich, all similarities of method, attitude, style of racist rhetoric, gradual increases of pressure and so forth must not be remarked on. Too bad.

I did notice one glaring distinction Macabee's links made clear between the early Warsaw ghetto and the current Gaza strip. While both stopped the inhabitants from getting out, functioning as a sort of huge jail, and while both let selected members of the ghettoized group out when convenient to work (although this tailed off and eventually stopped), in the case of the Warsaw ghetto there was apparently an inadequate ration provided to the inhabitants by the Nazis. I expect that the ratcheting process meant that this was cut, and cut again, and eventually stopped altogether.
In the case of the Gaza strip, there is no such ration. The inhabitants must feed themselves as best they may in a desert, with their access to the ocean cut off so they can't fish, with massive overcrowding, with insufficient water for drinking much less irrigation. So that would put us in something like early-ish Warsaw ghetto, but not the beginning.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 07 June 2004 07:22 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Will I be band for what I have said. I hope not. I like posting here. it should be noted that I did delete the(yet) and I didn't say Jews are the only ones capable of genocide either.
I didn't mean to be anti-Semitic

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 07 June 2004 07:23 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone is capable of gassing enemies - even Canadians. We just haven't been given the right circumstances yet.

There isn't anything particularly antisemitic, therefore, about saying someone is capable of gassing Palestinians. Then again, we all know the strategy behind this accusation.

Both the Nazi holocaust and the Turkish-Armenian holocaust took place behind the screen of a major war. Ariel Sharon had a little holocaust of his own in Sabra and Shatila, during his war on Lebanon.

The Palestinians are relatively safe as long as a general war doesn't break out in the region.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 07 June 2004 07:47 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think you could define the massacre at Sabra and Chatilla as a Holocaust, but I could be wrong. Could someone define Holocaust for me?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 07 June 2004 07:48 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Will I be band for what I have said. I hope not. I like posting here. it should be noted that I did delete the(yet) and I didn't say Jews are the only ones capable of genocide either.
I didn't mean to be anti-Semitic

And almost everyone else wants you to continue to post here freely, CMOT D.

Never fear. Some of us are real loyal.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 June 2004 07:54 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm starting to get really tired of Macabee throwing accusations of anti-semitism around here.

It's getting boring.

[Edited because I apparently can't even get a two-line post right without finding a grammar mistake.]

[ 07 June 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 07 June 2004 08:00 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is worse than boring. It is deeply destructive.

There are vulgar anti-semites posting openly on, eg, freedumb whatever, and Macabee has admitted noting that -- and yet he thinks it is more useful for him to be fighting anti-semitism here, among lefties, most of whom cut their teeth on anti-racist struggles.

To me, it is logical to conclude that Macabee is more interested in red-baiting than he is in fighting genuine anti-semitism.

He says that he is here to bring "balance" to this board. Huh? Everyone here is anti-racist. He wishes to "balance" that position?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 07 June 2004 08:03 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Qbong now minimizes the Holocaust by claiming that the massacre at Shabra and Shatilla was akin to the murder of 6 million Jews.

Others continue to claim that Israel would gas innocent Palestinians.

Thankfully CMOT Dibbler removes 'yet" but Rufus is clear in his need to ensure that this site be similar with white supremacist sites both of which love to compare Israel and Nazis.

Then of course the thread ends up focusing and blaming me because I try to defend Israel (read Jews) from theses anti-Semitic accusations.

And you wonder why so many Jewish leftists are absolutely fed up with the likes of people who would post such garbage.

Ahhh but of course I forgot, they are all wrong and you...you all know the truth.

Lord give me strength!!


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 07 June 2004 08:11 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
It is worse than boring. It is deeply destructive.

There are vulgar anti-semites posting openly on, eg, freedumb whatever, and Macabee has admitted noting that -- and yet he thinks it is more useful for him to be fighting anti-semitism here, among lefties, most of whom cut their teeth on anti-racist struggles.

To me, it is logical to conclude that Macabee is more interested in red-baiting than he is in fighting genuine anti-semitism.

He says that he is here to bring "balance" to this board. Huh? Everyone here is anti-racist. He wishes to "balance" that position?


Free dumb site can never be redeemed. They are racists in their very soul.

I know many here have been anti-racists and have fought the good fight. That is what is so deeply disturbing. That you can so easily turn a blind eye to progressive Jews who fought along side you. These Jews tell you that evil comparisions of Nazis and Israel, misuse of Holocaust imagery is hurtful, wrongheaded anti-Semtic...and you scoff at this. It is elitism at its worst to believe that only you know the truth.

I have never complained about those who use civil language to criticize Israel even when I passionately disagree. But I will fight with my last breath those who should know better, who should understand that poisoned words lead to poisoned deeds, that uncivil language leads to uncivil behaviour that comparing Israel to Nazis is poisoned uncivilized behaviour. I dont expect the bump[kins on Freedumb site to understand this. I would have expected Babblers to ...It saddens me that I can be so wrong.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 07 June 2004 08:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To quote only one paragraph, Macabee:

quote:
Qbong now minimizes the Holocaust by claiming that the massacre at Shabra and Shatilla was akin to the murder of 6 million Jews.

How dare you? Seriously, how dare you?

What will it take to awaken some sort of human conscience in you? What? What? What?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 07 June 2004 08:18 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
To quote only one paragraph, Macabee:

How dare you? Seriously, how dare you?

What will it take to awaken some sort of human conscience in you? What? What? What?


HOW DARE I???? he posted it. I read it.


quote:
Ariel Sharon had a little holocaust of his own in Sabra and Shatila, during his war on Lebanon.

The comparision is OUTRAGEOUS. How dare you?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 June 2004 08:19 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gosh, is this a hundred posts yet? I'm sure it must be.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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