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Author Topic: 50 odd things about the Nick Berg story
The_Calling
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posted 24 May 2004 01:34 AM      Profile for The_Calling   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
link
From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
drea
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posted 29 May 2004 08:27 PM      Profile for drea   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A man is dead and you want to capitalize on it?
From: Washington | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 May 2004 08:41 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, The Calling is from the USA after all.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 30 May 2004 11:57 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think that wanting the truth is capitalizing, drea.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 30 May 2004 12:16 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yet another odd detail to add to this mix: I read somewhere this a.m. that Berg had been interviewed at some point by Michael Moore.

Say what you will, the guy got around.


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skdadl
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posted 30 May 2004 12:20 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is the link: from USA Today.
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Cueball
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posted 30 May 2004 09:12 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A man is dead and you want to capitalize on it?

A man is murdered and you don't want to know why, or by whom?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 31 May 2004 12:05 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A photo from Abu Ghraib not published on the NYT Front Page
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Cueball
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posted 01 June 2004 04:10 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have been thinking about that picture all day, and it really, really bothers me. Of course I think it is completely logical that there would be Israeli's working at Abu Ghraib, given that Israel and the US have such a close relationship, and Israelis have an interest, and that many Israeli's are also US citizens, and that Israeli's have much expreience working with Arabs and that many IDF people are fluent in Arabic. In fact from an intelligence angle I would say it would be a sign of extreme incompetence by the US Army if it did not use whatever available Israeli inteligence people that it might be able to employ at Abu Ghraib, yet the picture is still extremely disturbing, because it elvates everything that Arabs have said about Israeli ambitions in the region from the level of paranoia to the plausible.

[ 01 June 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 01 June 2004 10:19 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Or it could be a fake. It's not like Counterpunch gave any kind of photo credit or anything professional like that.

[ 01 June 2004: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 June 2004 12:58 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's quite the selective credulity you have there, Mr. M.

After all, you once tried to scare us with photos of the subterranean Iraqi air force.


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 01 June 2004 01:05 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That photo came from Snopes, and I trust Snopes. I've been hoping this photo might get the Snopes treatment one way or the other, but so far no.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 June 2004 01:53 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't recall anyone doubting the veracity of the aeroplane photos. The problem was in the inferences you were suggesting about the photos.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 01 June 2004 03:53 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I seem to recall suggesting that Iraq hadn't exactly come clean about hiding a bunch of jets and that maybe, if they could hide a bunch of jets so that they wouldn't be found for months, maybe they could hide other things too. Couldn't they?
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 01 June 2004 04:07 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes. They are still hiding the pants that Rumsfeld left behind when he came to Baghdad to woo Saddam.
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Mr. Magoo
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posted 01 June 2004 04:18 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anything to avoid coming out and saying "Yes, I suppose they could"?

Anyway, while I'm NOT making the case for Iraq having WMD's, I seem to recall many people suggesting that they could never have afforded them, they were embargoed and sanctioned into abject poverty, and besides, how come nobody's found them?

Then we see a photo of some very expensive jet fighters — jets that the impoverished Iraq supposedly couldn't afford and never mentioned — buried so that the Allies hopefully wouldn't find them, and nobody finds it even so much as interesting. Seen too many photos of squadrons of buried jets to care, I suppose.

Anyway, what's this got to do with a man, standing in an unmarked prison, with an Israeli flag tattooed on his arm in an uncredited photo on a dodgy "news" site anyway?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 01 June 2004 04:35 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Then we see a photo of some very expensive jet fighters — jets that the impoverished Iraq supposedly couldn't afford and never mentioned — buried so that the Allies hopefully wouldn't find them, and nobody finds it even so much as interesting. Seen too many photos of squadrons of buried jets to care, I suppose.


Your memory is quite selective, Magoo. These jets were uncovered, so to speak, after the march to Baghdad. The members of the military who dug them up declared them unfit to fly, because they hadn't been maintained during the course of the embargo. They were basically useless, expensive shells.

This story, which includes the wonderful rhyme "If they fly, they die!", implies that the Iraqi airforce was actually quite out in the open, but that nobody bothered to man the jets or bombers.

I will grant that they were hidden. Whoop-de-doo.

[ 01 June 2004: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 01 June 2004 04:38 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see that Magoo, that ol' master of the Slippery-Slope is at it again...
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Mr. Magoo
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posted 01 June 2004 04:42 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I will grant that they were hidden. Whoop-de-doo.

Then your opinion as to whether there are or aren't any WMD's notwithstanding, would you also grant that if they could buy and bury a bunch of planes, that maybe they could buy and bury ... other things too? And that if you asked them about any hidden planes, or these "other things" that you'd probably be met with denial?

Thing is, I never supported the war in Iraq. So I'm not "trying to find" WMD's so as to justify my position. But it seems to me that more than a few people were downright eager to paint the concept of WMD's as not just unproven, or even improbable, but downright laughable. As though a buried container of mustard gas were somehow utterly impossible for Iraq to have or hide. I thought this photo, besides being kind of fascinating just to see, certainly suggested that nothing's impossible.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 01 June 2004 04:51 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not really.

I was always of the opinion that UNSCOM should be allowed to do it's job. If they found something, then great, they could slate it for destruction. As time went on, and the team was sent on wild goose chase after goose chase, based on arguably the most advanced intelligence in the world, it became clear that there was nothing to find. I still held the possibility, however remote, that something could conceivably be hidden in the desert, but I considered a complete lack of WMD to be the most likely explanation for UNSCOM's lack of success. The discovery of a bunch of broken down planes didn't change the parameters of my assessment one iota.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 01 June 2004 05:43 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe it took a long time to find the planes because the teams weren't sent to look for planes? Planes that were totally legal for Iraq to have, and were presumably only hidden so the US wouldn't illegally bomb them?
Probably if they'd asked anyone about where the Iraqi air force went a year ago, some Iraqi official would have said, yeah, we buried most of them. But nobody was interested until it turned out that was the best photo op they were likely to come up with.

From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 01 June 2004 05:46 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Then your opinion as to whether there are or aren't any WMD's notwithstanding, would you also grant that if they could buy and bury a bunch of planes, that maybe they could buy and bury ... other things too? And that if you asked them about any hidden planes, or these "other things" that you'd probably be met with denial?

Where the planes part of Iraq's pre-1991 arsenal? How long were they buried for? Was it illegal for Iraq to have an air force? As for the "what else could they have buried" line, it's contingent upon Iraq having something to bury in the first place.

UNSCOM destroyed 90 to 95 per cent of Iraq's weapons programs in the mid-90s. There were no stockpiles to bury, and when it comes to chemical and biologiocal weapons, what stocks they had (if there was any that wasn't destroyed, that is) would be useless sludge by now.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 June 2004 06:11 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have a shovel.

I suppose I have WMD to hide?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 June 2004 07:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I seem to recall suggesting that Iraq hadn't exactly come clean about hiding a bunch of jets and that maybe...

Come clean?

Sorry goo, there is no UN resolution that indicates that Iraq has to give up its airforce. Niether are Mig 23 and Mig 25 fighters weapons of mass destruction. Wherein do people get this idea that Iraq was singled out as a country not allowed to have the standard weapons that almost every country in the world employs on a daily basis. The Fighters were hidden in the hope that they could be preserved against attacks by the US airforce, also an almost daily occurence during the 1991-1999 period.

Camoflaging military equipment is to be construed as evidence that Iraq had WMD?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 01 June 2004 08:43 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Camoflaging military equipment is to be construed as evidence that Iraq had WMD?

Once the camel's...err...MiG's..ah...nose is in...err..out of...the tent...err..sand...

Dammit...

[ 01 June 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


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