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Author Topic: Israeli Cabinet Minister uses the "N" word
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 May 2004 01:48 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nazi remark raised in Israel cabinet debate

quote:
An Israeli cabinet minister says the army's demolition of Palestinian homes reminds him of how the Nazis treated his family during the Second World War...

...[Justice Minister Yosef] Lapid was quoted as saying a picture of an old Palestinian woman on the rubble of her destroyed home reminded him of his grandmother during the Holocaust.

The statement outraged hardline Likud Party ministers. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said such comments add "oil to the fire of incitement."

Lapid said he wasn't comparing Israel to the Nazis, but added there "is no forgiveness for people who treat an old woman in this way."



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beluga2
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posted 23 May 2004 01:58 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Damn those anti-Semitic Israeli cabinet ministers.
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josh
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posted 23 May 2004 03:09 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee, if Tommy Lapid were a member of Babble, would there be a move afoot by some to have him banned?
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skdadl
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posted 23 May 2004 03:14 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, no, josh, at least not at first. We would be warning him that he might be crossing a line, perhaps inadvertently, but crossing none the less.
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DrConway
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posted 23 May 2004 04:39 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
... and that he would be making "dangerous" remarks that would be "beyond the pale".
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Macabee
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posted 23 May 2004 06:07 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Once again CBC gets it wrong and everyone here buys right into it:

quote:
Lapid sparked controversy when he said a picture of an elderly Palestinian woman searching on all fours for her medication reminded him of his grandmother.

Cabinet members immediately thought Lapid, a Holocaust survivor, was comparing the Israeli operation in Rafah to the Holocaust - but that was not his intention, Lapid told Israel Radio.


Ha'aretz


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Michelle
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posted 23 May 2004 06:18 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, we should have known it was all a lie concocted by the Liberal Bias In The Media, right, Macabee? We shouldn't have trusted some fringe news source like the CBC - maybe we should have checked for confirmation from a more mainstream source, like the CJN or something.
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DrConway
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posted 23 May 2004 06:24 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know if Lapid was backpedalling or not, but the hypersensitivity of the Likud to comparisons to the Nazis strikes me as the remnant of a guilty conscience for what it is they've been causing to be done to the Palestinians.
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pogge
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posted 23 May 2004 06:24 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Yeah, we should have known it was all a lie concocted by the Liberal Bias In The Media, right, Macabee? We shouldn't have trusted some fringe news source like the CBC ...

I guess Israeli health minister Dan Naveh gets his news from the CBC:

quote:
"The comparison, maybe hinted or even unintentional, between the systematic murder of the Jews by the Germans and the army's operations in Gaza ... is not a legitimate analogy," Health Minister Dan Naveh told Army Radio.

It seems likely that Lapid's critics themselves brought the Nazi comparison into the discussion in an effort to discredit his remarks as thoroughly as possible and that's how the "meme" got started.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 May 2004 06:35 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee whiz, Mishei reads what he wants to see. What else is new?

So howya been, credibility boy?

Is it you posting this time, your wife's second cousin twice removed, or an intern down at the propaganda ministry?

In any case:

*plonk*


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Michelle
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posted 23 May 2004 06:51 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I really should rebuke you for that post, al-Q, but I'm laughing too hard to do so with any credibility.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 24 May 2004 12:02 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Yeah, we should have known it was all a lie concocted by the Liberal Bias In The Media, right, Macabee? We shouldn't have trusted some fringe news source like the CBC - maybe we should have checked for confirmation from a more mainstream source, like the CJN or something.
No, Ha'aretz would have been fine.

And so I understand what is it about the CJN that you dont like? Can you point to anything in its straight news coverage that is factually incorrect? If not why would you mention it this way?

[ 24 May 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


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Briguy
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posted 24 May 2004 07:32 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What's your problem with the CBC coverage, Macabee? Even Ha'aretz explains that the Likud ministers thought he was making a Nazi analogy. The story states:

quote:
Lapid was quoted as saying a picture of an old Palestinian woman on the rubble of her destroyed home reminded him of his grandmother during the Holocaust.

Later on, in the CBC story the following appears:

quote:
Lapid said he wasn't comparing Israel to the Nazis, but added there "is no forgiveness for people who treat an old woman in this way."

The story was carried by the AP, and is seen with the first quote above in many papers around the world. The second quote is absent from some of the other papers. CBC treated this story in a very balanced way, and made it clear that Lapid didn't think he was making a Nazi analogy. Likud thought he was. Your bias against the CBC goes beyond the pale, Macabee.

[ 24 May 2004: Message edited by: Sarcasmobri ]


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Michelle
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posted 24 May 2004 08:02 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
And so I understand what is it about the CJN that you dont like? Can you point to anything in its straight news coverage that is factually incorrect? If not why would you mention it this way?

Actually, I find the CJN to be quite interesting, and it's on my list of online news sources that I read semi-regularly.

But yes, I was being sarcastic. I figured you'd thing that was a good, unbiased news source when it came to issues in Israel, as opposed to the CBC. I'm sure you've quoted from the CJN once or twice in a past incarnation. which is why it came to mind.

Sarcasmo, it's interesting that you noticed that both sides of the story actually WERE presented in the CBC article. I didn't read it as closely as you did. But the thread title is a bit misleading now that I read the article more closely, since he actually didn't say "Nazi" - I have a hard time believing that wasn't what he was implying though - not that I have a problem with that. The first thing I thought of when I heard about the homes being demolished in this latest offensive was a novel I read a long time ago, about a girl whose family were evacuated from their home in Holland during the second world war. I think Lapid is backpedalling.


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Justice
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posted 24 May 2004 10:50 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lapid is a centrist and sometimes even leans a little to the right. I'm surprised that the radical leftist on rabble don't call him a Nazi. Surely Lapid is at least as evil as Rabin was. And the same goes for Peres or Burg or Bellin or Sarid or Allony or any other minster on Israels the moderate left that is for a fence (not sharons fence) and against an absolute right of return and of course the idea of a Jewish state.

Anyways I do agree with Lapid in this particular case. And I do not think the IDF are evil on a whole.


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skdadl
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posted 24 May 2004 11:07 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm surprised that the radical leftist on rabble don't call him a Nazi. Surely Lapid is at least as evil as Rabin was.

Are you indeed, Justice.

Quote for me, Justice. Evidence, Justice. Show me one passage where a babbler has simply stated that an Israeli cabinet minister is a Nazi.

And I'm sorry to hear that you think Rabin was "evil." No other babbler has ever said that.

(And if you think anyone has, you'd better have proof of such dangerous charges, Justice.)


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Hinterland
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posted 24 May 2004 11:12 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, your bias against the CBC is...*ahem*...*cough..cough*...*big build up here, music rising to an ominous crescendo*....*dah dah DAH!"...telling.
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Macabee
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posted 24 May 2004 12:05 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Despite all of your silly behaviour CBC still misled. That is my point. And many here were just as quick to believe CBC's misleading position on the story.
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skdadl
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posted 24 May 2004 12:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, I'm sorry, but I am failing to grasp the hair-splitting that's going on here. Not only did I read the CBC link when it first went up, but I read the Haaretz report as well before you linked to it, and I saw both reporting the same situation, although in more or less detail.

Even if you read no more than the first excerpted quote on this thread (from the early CBC link), you will see Lapid's clarification noted.

The CBC frequently runs very brief reports as soon as a story hits the wires, reports that we all assume are going to be fleshed out as more detail becomes available. That's all I see here.


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Michelle
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posted 24 May 2004 12:18 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Despite all of your silly behaviour CBC still misled. That is my point.

No they didn't, which was Sarcasmo's point, which you would rather not focus on since it's much easier to complain about "silly behaviour" than it is to admit that you were wrong.


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Macabee
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posted 24 May 2004 12:32 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

No they didn't, which was Sarcasmo's point, which you would rather not focus on since it's much easier to complain about "silly behaviour" than it is to admit that you were wrong.


Really? OK here is exactly what you said Michelle:

quote:
But the thread title is a bit misleading now that I read the article more closely, since he actually didn't say "Nazi"

And here is what CBC stated:

quote:
Nazi remark raised in Israel cabinet debate
Last Updated Sun, 23 May 2004 10:57:05
JERUSALEM - An Israeli cabinet minister says the army's demolition of Palestinian homes reminds him of how the Nazis treated his family during the Second World War.


Now what Lapid may have meant is another issue. And for those of you who can read minds I await your interpretation (oops I see the mind readers are already out in force). Bottom line there is a whole bunch of, as you would say Michelle, "misleading" (oh sorry a "bit misleading" ) going on now isn't there?

But alas :

quote:
you would rather not focus on [this] since it's much easier to complain about [my] "silly behaviour" than it is to admit that you were wrong.

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skdadl
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posted 24 May 2004 12:48 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Huh?

But Lapid did say what the CBC said he said. They were writing their own topic sentence, not quoting, of course -- but what is wrong with what they wrote?

Surely, merely using the word Nazis when one is speaking about WWII is still allowed? I mean, who else was doing things to Lapid's family during WWII? Elves?


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Hinterland
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posted 24 May 2004 12:58 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Macabee is of course saying that any use of the word "Nazi" in connection with Israel is misleading.

It's not that simple, Macabee. Life never is. If Lapid was referring to his family's mistreatment during the Holocaust, then everyone can describe it as "how the Nazis treated his family", and, as Skdadl points out, it's not a quote. You, of course don't like this (..gosh, knock me over with a feather), but that's irrelevant to any real issue.

And since Macabee stated in this thread "Once again CBC gets it wrong and everyone here buys right into it..", then he's one to talk about misleading.

[ 24 May 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


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skdadl
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posted 24 May 2004 01:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee may have a quarrel with the title of this thread, but that's all.

I don't even know that for sure, though, since I wasn't at the cabinet meeting, and even those who were seem to disagree about what was said, which is why Lapid had to make his later statements. As I understand it, the confusion among cabinet members was over the H word, not the N word. It is the H word that Lapid denies using.

Of course, the real point is that some people did not want to hear what Lapid was saying at all. The evil is not in any mere word; the evil is in deeds, but it is easier to duck that truth if you start a dispute over semantics.


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Hinterland
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posted 24 May 2004 01:13 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
That's for sure, I had to go over the Ha'Aretz article and the CBC report once again just to remind myself of who said what...when I realised it makes no material difference whatsoever.

[ 24 May 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 24 May 2004 01:43 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bottom line, the IDF must be held accountable for mistreatment. On that we all agree.
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skdadl
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posted 24 May 2004 04:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The IDF must be held responsible?

Well, ok. I mean, "just following orders" is no defence, as we all know. Hold 'em responsible. Secondarily.

But the IDF were ordered to bulldoze those houses in Rafah, and that is what Lapid was talking about -- the sight of a grandmother looking helplessly for her things amid the pile of rubble that had only recently been her home.

The people who gave the orders bear the greater responsibility.


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DrConway
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posted 24 May 2004 04:35 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Bottom line, the IDF must be held accountable for mistreatment. On that we all agree.

So why do you get all starry-eyed at their internal investigati... uh, whitewashes?

I remind you that police forces have a paramilitary rank structure and often there ie some overlap between police and military in terms of their insular views of themselves and their lack of ready contact with the civilian universe except in certain situations.

Thus, I have a high level of cynicism about the degree to which internal "investigations" lead to a wholesale cover-everybody's-ass scramble, and a complete disavowal of any responsibility for anything substantial whatsoever, and this has been brought about by my many observations of the way police forces in Canada will let themselves off the hook and maybe suspend an officer with pay or give them a "desk job".

If you want the IDF to be held accountable you're going to have to do better than accept their joke of an internal investigations system.

[ 24 May 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


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worker_drone
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posted 24 May 2004 05:12 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Huh?
But Lapid did say what the CBC said he said. They were writing their own topic sentence, not quoting, of course -- but what is wrong with what they wrote?

Surely, merely using the word Nazis when one is speaking about WWII is still allowed? I mean, who else was doing things to Lapid's family during WWII? Elves?


Quote for me, skdadl. Evidence, skdadl. Show me the passage where Lapid mentions the word "Nazi". Where's your proof skdadl?

And I'm sorry to hear that you think Lapid said "Nazi." Even when it's clear that he didn't say it.

(And if you think he did, or that you have the right to put words in his mouth, you'd better have proof of such dangerous charges, skdadl.)


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 24 May 2004 05:27 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by worker_drone:

Quote for me, skdadl. ...


Cute. But after a close reading of what skdadl wrote, this doesn't hold up. Sometimes these tricks really are best left to professionals.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 24 May 2004 05:31 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thankfully no one here would ever make up an investigative tribunal, your bias' are a bit to obvious.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 May 2004 05:41 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lapid may or may not have used the word "Nazi" -- as I said above, no one except people at the cabinet meeting know what he said during that meeting.

And although another word is indeed, apparently, being debated in Israel, as far as I know, it is only on babble that people are debating whether or not Lapid used the term "Nazi."

In Israel, some cabinet members are claiming he referred to the Holocaust. He denies he used the term "Holocaust," which could be true; but then, given what he said, it could be true at the same time that he "referred to the Holocaust" without using that actual word.

If you see what I mean, wd.

We know that Lapid referred to what had been done to his grandmother ... by some people, during WWII. The CBC were stuck with summarizing that fact. For "some people," they could have said "elves," I guess, but they didn't.

They said what we all would say.

There were Nazis, you know, wd. There were real Nazis. They did many things. It is important that every human who lives after them knows as much as she can know about all the many things they did.

The CBC did not pretend to quote from the cabinet meeting. They summarized what Lapid and his colleagues were arguing about afterwards. Lapid referred to the people who not only hurt but eventually killed, I believe, his grandmother (and also, I read, his father). They weren't elves, wd.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 May 2004 05:51 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
PS to God: Please forgive me for allowing the attention of this thread to be diverted yet again from the urgent human focus it should have, that Minister Lapid himself, in a remarkably apolitical human moment, wanted it to have -- on the living, suffering grandmothers of Rafah, who remind each of us of those we love whom we have seen hurt, those we do not wish to see hurt any longer.

Put us all together, and what d'ye got?

Bibbety-bobbety-boo.

Thanks, Mama God. And peace. I hope it's nice up there.


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pogge
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posted 24 May 2004 07:04 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting BBC article on this.

Israel wrestles with Nazi insults

quote:
... while the remark shocked some Israeli politicians, it is actually fairly mild compared to some of the Holocaust-related insults that have been hurled across the Israeli political spectrum in the last decade.

In the months before Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated in 1995, right-wing demonstrators rallied under banners showing him dressed as a Nazi.

[snip]

The country got a harsh wake-up call when Rabin was shot dead by a right-wing Israeli who opposed the Oslo peace process with the Palestinians.

But after a brief hiatus, political opponents were back to their old ways.

Leaders of the left-wing Labour party accused Binyamin Netanyahu of evoking Nazi slogans when he ran for prime minister in 1999 as "a strong leader for a strong nation".

When former Shas party leader Aryeh Deri was convicted of corruption the same year, he released a video comparing his trial to that of Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann.



From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 24 May 2004 08:41 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes Slim quite right. They were ugly, stupid and offensive. And yes, people, even Jews, can engage in anti-Jewish activity.
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Pimji
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posted 24 May 2004 10:50 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"The demolition of houses in Rafah must stop. It is not humane, not Jewish, and causes us grave damage in the world."


Justice Minister Yosef Lapid

From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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posted 24 May 2004 10:55 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes but you need to distinguish between what he said and the words that came out of his mouth.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 May 2004 11:23 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That whole conversation (which finally seems to have lost steam) about whether Lapid actually used the word "Nazi", or whether CBC or Ha'aretz are better at inference or paraphrasing, is a classic example of mishinformation, and is furthermore ultimately meaningless.

What matters is that an Israeli cabinet minister, in an unguarded moment of clarity and honesty, recognised himself in the face of his victim.

[ 24 May 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 24 May 2004 11:35 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Maybe not "his victim", Al-Q. Maybe "a victim".
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 May 2004 11:42 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know, Hinterland. He's a member of the cabinet that ordered this atrocity. It's good that he's feeling the responsibility for the actions of the group he is a part of, and is trying to change the direction of that group.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Justice
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posted 24 May 2004 11:46 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
flotsom

Rabin, Yitzak. Otherwise known as the "bonebreaker" for overseeing long queues of detained Palestinians awaiting their fate. A leg or, if lucky an arm.


what is that suppose to imply

here is the linkweb page

and I'm sure I could find more

Anyway I'm never said they did I said I was surpriesed they didn't because often there are many other implimications and dimonic depections the pretty well near that.

Anyways I'm sick of the demonization on both sides I think it would all benifit us more to focus and encourage positive moves such as Sharons pull out from Gaza

[ 24 May 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 24 May 2004 11:50 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't know, Hinterland. He's a member of the cabinet that ordered this atrocity. It's good that he's feeling the responsibility for the actions of the group he is a part of, and is trying to change the direction of that group.

Absolutely, but we can't come to conclusions about Lapid's sense of personal culpability without something more than the public statements he's made.

[ 24 May 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 May 2004 11:51 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What is your point? And why wouldn't you answer him in that thread instead of dragging it into this one, where it's off-topic?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 May 2004 11:52 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He hasn't resigned his cabinet post in protest, so he's culpable.

There are a couple of scenes in this film that show Israelis using large rocks or concrete blocks to break the arms of Palestinians:
Palestine is Still the Issue

[ 24 May 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 24 May 2004 11:57 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Yes, but this is Likud. Does anyone ever resign from that government? It's like marvelling at why Rumsfeld hasn't resigned yet. They just don't.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 May 2004 12:00 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But that's not the point, is it?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 25 May 2004 12:06 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
No, it's not the point, Al-Q, and I'm not in fact disagreeing with you, or anything. I just hate these threads where any detail will be seized upon by the resident propagandists to derail the discussion into something no one else is interested in talking about (...such as leftist anti-semitism, self-hating Jews and CBC bias)

The atrocities are clear. The collective responsibility is clear. I don't think there's much to discuss beyond the fact that it must stop.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 May 2004 12:20 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK, let's move on then.

As I said, Lapid's comment demonstrated that he admitted to recognising a certain uncomfortable historical similarity.

This admission, by an current Israeli cabinet minister (I said "current" because people such as Moshe Dayan and Ben-Gurion have already admitted the injustice of dispossessing the Palestinians. They just said "too bad for them, we're stronger" and left it at that), is startling because such honesty doesn't seem to exist any more among Israel's supporters.

[ 25 May 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 25 May 2004 12:49 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Until the right-wing Christo-Judeo-Fascist- (...I'm coining that...you like?) arm of the American government gets turfed, I don't see the situation in Israel changing much. But it will. As I learned as a child, bad things never last forever.

[ 25 May 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 25 May 2004 12:58 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Al said:
quote:
This admission, by an current Israeli cabinet minister (I said "current" because people such as Moshe Dayan and Ben-Gurion have already admitted the injustice of dispossessing the Palestinians. They just said "too bad for them, we're stronger" and left it at that), is startling because such honesty doesn't seem to exist any more among Israel's supporters.
That really is incredible, isn't it? But I have to add that I am not sure this is as much the case in Israel as it is in the West. Papers like Haaretz, university journals, magazines, even certain television personalities in Israel proudly fly the Zionist flag while lambasting the occupation and the settlers (or at least provide a space for said lambasting). Moreover, the fiercest, most precise critics of the occupation are most commonly Israeli NGOs like B'Tselem and Gush Shalom.

It is here, in Canada and USA ( I can't speak for Europe and Australia or New Zealand, but I would think it would be somewhat similar) where identification with Israel seems to mean complete loyalty to the regime. Even those who claim they are 'Zionist but not Likud' almost never take the opportunity to blast something like the recent 'military operations' in Gaza; one must conclude that this is for fear of giving ammunition to the enemy.

It is a lost opportunity. I would love to work with self-described moderate-Zionists, but they do not seem to want to work with us. At the end of the day, their objective is to 'speak out for Israel', and to represent its cause, no matter what is done in its, and their, name. All the while, Peace Now, Gush Shalom, B'Tselem, etc. are weakened that much more when those of us who essentially use the same arguments in the West are irresponsibily accused of the most base motives by the very people who should be taking up the peace camp's cause.

As to what Lapid said: Al has the right of it. It takes alot, a whole hell of alot, to step outside of one's learned responses and see the other as being 'like us'. It is a start, the birth of a different way of seeing. One can hope it bears fruit.

edited to remove the notion that the Israeli Justice Minister is a woodland animal.

[ 25 May 2004: Message edited by: Thomas Linner ]


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 25 May 2004 01:12 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
It's "Lapid" not "Lapin".
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 25 May 2004 01:17 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ça veut dire qu'il ne saut pas, alors? Ben, je vais me corriger.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 25 May 2004 01:32 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Merci, Thomas.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 May 2004 01:42 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Y'know, I was wondering what the Hebrew word for "rabbit" was when I typed that....
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 25 May 2004 01:57 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Je vous en prie, Hinterland.


Al: Ha!


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 25 May 2004 02:20 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I'm sorry...I'm not getting this. What is the Hebrew word for "rabbit"?

...bearing in mind, of course, that I know what "lapin" means.

[ 25 May 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 25 May 2004 02:26 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have no idea, and I doubt Al does (though I stand to be corrected). I can only speak for myself, but I laughed because I felt he was having a slight go at me for my silly little error.


We're having communication issues tonight, aren't we Hinterland. On dirait qu'il faut aller au lit! And I think I will do just that. Next time let's type v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y so we can understand each other!

[ 25 May 2004: Message edited by: Thomas Linner ]


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 May 2004 02:54 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I typed "Lapin" too at one point (since corrected).

I thought it odd that an Israeli would be named after the French word for rabbit. Then I started wondering what could be the Hebrew word for "rabbit".

Maybe it's "lapid."

quote:
Run rabbit - run rabbit - Run! Run! Run!
Run rabbit - run rabbit - Run! Run! Run!
So run rabbit - run rabbit - Run! Run! Run!

Run rabbit - run rabbit - Run! Run! Run!
Don't give the farmer his fun! Fun! Fun!
He'll get by without his rabbit pie
So run rabbit - run rabbit - Run! Run! Run!


Flannegan & Allen

Words [ed. what words?] by Noel Gay & Ralph Butler. Music by Noel Gay


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 25 May 2004 08:34 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Linner:

It is here, in Canada and USA ( I can't speak for Europe and Australia or New Zealand, but I would think it would be somewhat similar) where identification with Israel seems to mean complete loyalty to the regime. Even those who claim they are 'Zionist but not Likud' almost never take the opportunity to blast something like the recent 'military operations' in Gaza; one must conclude that this is for fear of giving ammunition to the enemy.


[ 25 May 2004: Message edited by: Thomas Linner ]


Statement by Canada Israel Committee:

Canada Israel Committee


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 25 May 2004 08:52 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And that was supposed to counter Thomas' point how?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 25 May 2004 09:31 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
And that was supposed to counter Thomas' point how?

Clearly no amount of contrition from any pro-Israel source would ever be enough on this site.

[ 25 May 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 25 May 2004 09:50 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think Lapid showed quite a fair bit of it. As I said before, the fact that there's such a kerfluffle about this suggests a guilty conscience.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 25 May 2004 09:52 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:

Anyway I'm never said they did I said I was surpriesed they didn't because often there are many other implimications and dimonic depections the pretty well near that.

Anyways I'm sick of the demonization on both sides I think it would all benifit us more to focus and encourage positive moves such as Sharons pull out from Gaza


Justice, although I'm never sorry for confronting people right away when they make claims about babble as a whole that I think are not fair or true, I still really regret writing sharply to you because I am glad you're here; I recognize that you write out of sincere concern and pain and honest human empathy; and you usually do exactly what you say above, try to focus on the positive things that can be done, the real accommodation that might be found.

I guess, though, that a lot of others are not feeling very optimistic at the moment, given the big-power politics that is the context for all our puny hopes for peace. You and I can go on being nice guys and resisting demonizing other human beings all we like, and that's important, yes, I agree -- but George Bush and Ariel Sharon are not paying attention to guys like us, are they? And as long as that is true, the Palestinians are sunk.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 25 May 2004 01:47 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's disgusting, Macabee.

Here's the text in total.

quote:
The Canada-Israel Committee expresses sadness concerning the loss of innocent life in Gaza as a result of Israel's security operation directed against terror strongholds.

"We extend sincere condolences to the families of those who suffered casualties and look forward to the results of the Israeli government investigation into today's incident," said CIC Chair, Marc Gold.

"The continuing loss of innocent life on both sides underscores the urgent need for the emergence of a credible Palestinian leadership to join with Israel in seeking a peaceful resolution to the violence and conflict based on the 'Roadmap' blueprint," concluded Gold.



There is no suggestion that Israel has done anything wrong. There is no condemnation of a blatantly illegal military incursion. There is, instead, a blaming of the victims pre-supposing that somehow Israel is forced to bulldoze homes and fire from tanks into street-crowds. Moreover, they expect Palestinians to trust to an Israeli investigation into their dead.

If this is what passes for you as an olive branch, Macabee, I'm afraid the olive tree may just be dead.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 25 May 2004 04:59 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As I said no amount of contrition, sorrow or anything else for that matter will do here on Babble as long as an individual or organization is Zionist it will always be the bad guy.

It seems to me that Jewish national aspirations mean little. Even though most Jews still support a two-state solution my guess is that here the only solution is one that menas no Jewish state of Israel.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 25 May 2004 05:26 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
my guess is that here the only solution is one that menas no Jewish state of Israel.

Well duh. No person of conscience can support a racist, fascist state that is based in religion. A singular, secular state, free of apartheid an respecting of human rights, is most welcome.

When any, and I mean any state becomes the enforcer of the dictates of brutal, senseless, and inhuman religions (all religions, as far as I am concerned, and history backs me up), they are doomed to failure, and its people doomed to oppression, misery, death and injustice. Only secular states can guarantee the peaceful coexistance of differing beliefs by not allowing one belief to hold power over others.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 25 May 2004 05:27 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When nothing you say corresponds to the truth, Macabee, don't be surprised when you are called out on it.

Here's what I want, Macabee. This is the minimum litmus test I apply to those who identify with Israel but are eager to throw about their progressive bona fides.

First, what I accept as a given.

- That the person or organization in question believes in the right of Israel to exist as a nation within secure borders.

- That the person or organization condemns all acts of terror with Israel, and expects that condemnation to be shared.

- That the person or organization identifies with Israel, and sees him/her/itself as acting in the best interests of that state and its people.

Fair enough?

To move on. My conditions are as follows.

- That the person or organization commits to regularly and forcefully opposing the occupation. No ignoring the occupation, period.

- That the person or organization condemns clearly and without reservation the blanket anti-semitism smears that serve as arguments for Israeli mouthpieces like, oh, I dunno, Macabee.

- That the person or organization commits to working with, or at least not patronizing, Arab and Palestinian groups of the same pedigree.


You think a »»we're really sorry we had to demolish your homes and kill your children even if you made us do it 'cause there's 7,000 of our wing-nuts (sorry, Wingnut) in the middle of 1,500,000 of you taking all the water and all the resources and bringing the bloody IOF down on you every time you go anywhere near them and and how dare you take up arms in your own communities when we roll in the bloody tanks don't you know you're job is to die; then we get to apologize and feel better about it »» will work. It doesn't. It doesn't pass even a minimal test of morality.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 25 May 2004 05:33 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Linner:
There is no suggestion that Israel has done anything wrong. There is no condemnation of a blatantly illegal military incursion. There is, instead, a blaming of the victims pre-supposing that somehow Israel is forced to bulldoze homes and fire from tanks into street-crowds. Moreover, they expect Palestinians to trust to an Israeli investigation into their dead.

If this is what passes for you as an olive branch, Macabee, I'm afraid the olive tree may just be dead.


My sentiments exactly.

Just out of curiousity, Macabee, could you please point out where, in that statement, the "contrition" is?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 25 May 2004 06:43 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, for most, the expression of sorrow over needless deaths coupled with the acknowledgement of who committed the acts that led to the tragedy is an expression of contrition. For most that is except Babble where some would not even grant the Jews a state of their own. For most that is except babble where an honest and meaningful attempt to express sorrow at the tragic loss of Palestinian lives is seen as an empty gesture.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 25 May 2004 06:47 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And for the record Macabee, I make a point of supporting and pointing to groups like Jews for Justice in Palestine and Israel, Tikkun, B'Tselem, Gush Shalom, because these are groups that do take the occupation seriously. I do not agree with all of them all of the time. There are points of principle on which we defer. There are priorities that we do not always share. But they are honest brokers for peace, able to critisize clearly and without apology what is being doing in their names.

They are, of course, routinely ostracized by the organs of official Zionism.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 25 May 2004 08:52 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And sorry Macabee, but you don't get off the hook that easy. This is not about relative value of the one-state or two-state solutions. This is about a specific political culture within official Zionist cirles which has become so insular that it would actually believe a statement amounting to "sorry you made us kill you and destroy your homes" would sound like compassion.

Macabee, you come in here time and time again and smear and insinuate and spread poisonous lies about good people who do good things in their communities on the global and local front. You cowardly duck any responsibility for the slurs that lie just under every one of your posts by avoiding any all direct statements that might actually be provable or no. I have flatly given very damn good reasons why not to accept this back-handed expression of something that might resemble some kind of paternalist compassion; I have also presented you with a very reasonable criteria I use to judge who I will work with amongst those who identify with Israel. You have nothing to say to it because there is nothing you can say to it. It doesn't play into your propagandist play-book to look at issues honestly and in good faith, rather than finding some kind trace of some kind of language that you might possibly use to accuse decent people of the worst kind of bigotry.

It is sad to see someone so warped by ideology that they cannot see humanity, but there it is. I hope you get better, seriously.

[ 25 May 2004: Message edited by: Thomas Linner ]


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 May 2004 08:43 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thomas your sactamonious rant and self-serving BS is typical of those who wish to impose their linear thinking . Im not interested in what you think about me. Thanks anyway.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 26 May 2004 09:43 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of sanctamonious rants.

But what about:

quote:
This is about a specific political culture within official Zionist cirles which has become so insular that it would actually believe a statement amounting to "sorry you made us kill you and destroy your homes" would sound like compassion.

That sounds really bad, anything to say about that Mac?

[ 26 May 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 May 2004 10:17 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Speaking of sanctamonious rants.

But what about:

That sounds really bad, anything to say about that Mac?

[ 26 May 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


Yes, who said this? I can find no such statement anywhere.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 26 May 2004 10:27 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well... hmmm that is in the first paragraph of Thomas's post that you called a sanctamonious rant. One would think that you would read a posters post for its content before you started lamabasting them with negative epithets. But to each his own, I guess.

Or perhaps not reading what is being said before responding is just part of this "insular" Zionist culture stuff that Thomas was talking about. A case in point, one might say.

Kinda like firing a missile into a crowd and then finding out they are unarmed later. SOP.

[ 26 May 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 May 2004 12:33 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Well... hmmm that is in the first paragraph of Thomas's post that you called a sanctamonious rant. One would think that you would read a posters post for its content before you started lamabasting them with negative epithets. But to each his own, I guess.

[ 26 May 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]



Well perhaps I was not being clear


Let me try again. Thomas suugests that the following claim was made:

quote:
... it would actually believe a statement amounting to "sorry you made us kill you and destroy your homes"

Who said such a thing pertaining specifically to sorry you made us kill you and destroy your homes.

Clear enough??


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 26 May 2004 07:14 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Thomas your sanctimonious rant and self-serving BS is typical of those who wish to impose their linear thinking.

Personally, I'll take linear thinking over circular reasoning any day.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 26 May 2004 07:44 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think this thread has outlived its usefulness.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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