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Author Topic: Bulldozing the Gaza Strip
josh
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Babbler # 2938

posted 18 May 2004 02:13 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Israeli tanks and armoured vehicles have demolished hundreds of Palestinian homes in one of the most destructive incidents in the Gaza Strip in recent years.

According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA), 2,197 people have already been made homeless and 191 homes razed throughout Gaza in the past few days.

The worst affected area is Rafah, on the border between Egypt and the Occupied Palestinian Territories, where 1,064 people lost their homes in 48 hours.

More than 30 Palestinians have died and many others who are critically injured are unable to reach hospitals due to curfews and restrictions on movement imposed by Israeli forces."

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/fromthefield/108489850083.htm


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 18 May 2004 04:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Amnesty accuses Israel of war crimes

quote:
Responding to the report, the Israeli Foreign Ministry said Palestinian militants use houses in civilian neighborhoods to attack Israeli forces, and that makes the structures "legitimate military targets" under international law.

Also, the statement said, houses are used to cover entrances to weapons-smuggling tunnels. "The demolition of these structures is often the only way to combat this threat," the statement said, while blaming the Palestinian Authority for not taking action against the militants.


So the IOF moves into a neighborhood, Palestinians attack them, and then the the IOF uses the defensive measures taken by the Palestinians as an excuse to detroy their homes. Bery pretty.

They have event admited this technique of attempting to draw Palestinian militants into attacking IOF patrols (in force) by entering Palestinian areas. The IOF calls this "stimulus-response." After having brought on the response, killing any defneders, they then go bulldoze whatever houses were used by Palestinian gunmen.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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Babbler # 2938

posted 18 May 2004 04:53 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Attacks on non-combatant populations, collective punishment and the demolition of homes are all illegal under international law and constitute war crimes, as former Israeli government minister Yossi Sarid declared today in the Haaretz newspaper.

Nor is this a response to terrorism. The notion that Sharon intended to "disengage" from Gaza is disingenuous and misleading. He may dismantle Israeli settlements, but Sharon intends to keep full military control of Gaza, including the "sterile zone" at Rafah, keeping Gaza encircled within an electronic fence, maintaining a military and economic boycott of the sea and controlling Palestinian airspace. Rather than "disengagement," this is merely imprisoning a million and a half Palestinians while then strengthening the settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem."

"The demolitions being carried out today are not merely a reaction to violence; they are the implementation of plans formulated by the army already in 2001, when the American peace activist Rachel Corrie was killed attempting to block bulldozers demolishing Palestinian homes. These actions, it should be noted, implicate the US in Israeli war crimes and violate American law. Virtually all the weapons deployed against Palestinians are American-made and purchased, from the D-9 Caterpillar bulldozers used to demolish Palestinian homes to the F-16s used to bomb Palestinian cities. Their very use against civilian populations violates the Arms Control Export Act, which prohibits the use of American arms in situations that violate fundamental human rights."

http://www.counterpunch.com/halper05152004.html


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josh
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posted 19 May 2004 09:38 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"At least eight Palestinians are reported killed as Israeli forces fired on a crowd in Rafah in southern Gaza.

Thousands of people were demonstrating against a massive operation in the refugee camp on the edge of the town.

Two children were among the dead, and more than 50 people were injured, Palestinian medical workers said."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3728681.stm


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 19 May 2004 09:50 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That retroactive definition of who is a Palestinian "gunman" needs noting, especially when the mounting death-toll is divided up into groups of "militants" and "civilians." A lot of the militants only become so defensively, after provocation and invasion.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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Babbler # 2938

posted 19 May 2004 10:16 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More dead from the attack:


"At least 23 Palestinians, most of them said to school students, were killed Wednesday afternoon when Israel Defense Forces helicopter gunships and tanks fired missiles and shells into a crowd of protestors in Rafah refugee camp in the southern Gaza Strip.

At least sixty people, including many women and children, were wounded in the incident, witnesses said. The incident brings the day's death toll in the area to at least 18.

An estimated 3,000 people marching to the nearby Tel Sultan neighborhood of the camp, to protest the IDF invasion in that area.

The witnesses said four missiles were fired from the air into the crowd.

"We cannot handle the situation, no hospital in the world can handle the situation," Dr. Moawiya Hassanain, the chief hospital spokesman, said. "I got instruction from President [Yasser] Arafat to mobilize all our teams to Rafah immediately and declare a state of emergency all over Gaza Strip hospitals."

Following the strike, the IDF opened the roads from the area of the Morag settlement to Rafah, in order to allow ambulances to reach the wounded. Rafah was sealed off from the rest of the Strip on Monday, ahead of the current incursion.

But Shabtai Gold, a spokesman for Physicians for Human Rights, said the army had prevented ambulances from traveling from nearby Khan Yunis to Rafah.

An IDF spokesman said the military was investigating the incident, adding that it was too soon to determine exactly what had happened."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/429428.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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Babbler # 3838

posted 19 May 2004 10:17 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Butchers.

quote:
RAFAH, Gaza Strip (Reuters) - Israeli forces opened fire on a protest march in a besieged Gaza refugee camp on Wednesday, killing eight Palestinians and raising the death toll in Israel's heaviest raid in the Gaza Strip in years to 31.

Some witnesses reported seeing helicopter gunships launching missiles while others said tanks fired shells into a peaceful crowd of thousands, sending people fleeing in panic, some dragging bloodied comrades with them.

"I saw bodies dismembered, blood everywhere," one witness said as smoke rose from the scene.

Medics said eight people were killed and at least 50 wounded in the strike, which raised the two-day death toll to one of the highest in three and a half years of conflict. The Israeli army had no immediate comment.


Looks like Rafah's going to be Israel's Fallujah.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 19 May 2004 01:48 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Bush "We'll get clarification from the government" When asked if he condemns the attack
What more clarification does he need? Total savagery on Israel's part.

From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 19 May 2004 01:57 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He misspoke. He meant to say "orders" instead of "clarification."
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 19 May 2004 02:08 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They mow down protest marchers in cold blood. I suppose the Likud is also using the excuse of "self-defence" for this latest atrocity?

Not even a banana republic would attempt such overt aggression. The whole world is watching, and these butchers still don't stop.

They must be pretty confident in US support.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 19 May 2004 03:08 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why don't those dashed Palestinians ever try peaceful resistance instead of resorting to violence? Oh, wait . . .
Evidently they do. And when they do, we see why they often don't.


(Edited to say: But, Al-Q, I think you're a little off there. Banana republics do this kind of thing all the time.)

[ 19 May 2004: Message edited by: Rufus Polson ]


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 19 May 2004 03:35 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not out in the open like this.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 19 May 2004 06:53 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Powerful article in Haaretz today by the always insightful Amira Hass:
Two Magic Phrases
quote:
What is so infuriating to the IDF about the relatively few armed men (compared to the numbers of people killed in the district)? Is it that they have very few weapons compared to Israel? That they stubbornly clash with soldiers? That they prove that they are able to learn from their tactical mistakes and from those of others? That despite the competition between the organizations, they manage to work together? That it is easy to depict some of them as heroes?
Yet another article proving that the debate over the occupation, and its moral implications, is far more advanced in Israel than here; it is pretty hard to smear another Israeli Jew with the slur of anti-Semitism (but some still try).

[ 19 May 2004: Message edited by: Thomas Linner ]


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 19 May 2004 09:48 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An Israeli state liar, Dr. Ranan Ghissen (sp?), is on CBC radio right now. I burst out laughing when he rationalized the recent murder of Palestinians by the IOF by asking, "What are armed men doing in the refugee camps?"

Apparently some of the Palestinians were killed by a tank round aimed at an empty building. The IOF can't figure out how they missed the broad side (oh well, maybe it was the narrow side) of a building, and slaughtered the people instead.

Gee, they can hit a guy in a wheelchair from long range, but they can't hit a building at close range.

The upside is that they're getting plenty of target practice today.

[ 19 May 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 20 May 2004 12:09 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why don't those dashed Palestinians ever try peaceful resistance instead of resorting to violence? Oh, wait . . .
Evidently they do. And when they do, we see why they often don't.



This is why we should see it more often. As tragic as the deaths are, for the first time in recent memory the world's eyes are focussed on the brutality and war crimes of Israel instead of teh facade of "defence."

A sample of headlines:


quote:
Death Toll Mounts as Israeli Offensive Escalates in Gaza
Los Angeles Times (subscription), CA - 36 minutes ago
By Laura King and Fayed Abu Shammaleh, Times Staff Writer. RAFAH, Gaza Strip -- Israeli forces fired a missile and tank shells toward ...

At a Palestinian Protest, Israeli Gunfire Leaves at Least 10 Dead ...
New York Times - 1 hour ago
RAFAH REFUGEE CAMP, Gaza Strip, Thursday, May 20 - As a throng of Palestinians marched in protest here, an Israeli tank and helicopter gunship opened fire on ...

Israeli tanks fire on peaceful protest
Guardian, UK - 1 hour ago
Israeli forces fired tank shells into a peaceful Palestinian protest during the ongoing assault on Rafah refugee camp yesterday, killing at least 10 people ...

At a Palestinian Protest, Israeli Gunfire Leaves at Least 10 Dead ...
New York Times, NY - 1 hour ago
By JAMES BENNET. AFAH REFUGEE CAMP, Gaza Strip, Thursday, May 20 - As a throng of Palestinians marched in protest here, an Israeli ...

Palestinian children among 10 killed in Gaza
Minneapolis Star Tribune (subscription), MN - 1 hour ago
RAFAH, GAZA STRIP -- Israeli forces fired a missile and a barrage of tank shells to hold back a crowd of Palestinians protesting military operations in Gaza on ...

Harsh words for Israel
NEWS.com.au, Australia - 1 hour ago
ISRAEL faced furious condemnation today over its massive military operation in the Gaza Strip, with key ally the US expressing grave concern over an offensive ...

UN council attacks Israel over demolitions
ABC Online, Australia - 2 hours ago
The UN Security Council has rebuked Israel for demolishing Palestinian homes after widespread bulldozing in the Gaza Strip, with the United States abstaining ...

Israelis fire on children
Telegraph.co.uk, UK - 2 hours ago
By Patrick Bishop in Gaza. Israeli forces fired shells and a missile at a crowd of Palestinian demonstrators yesterday, killing 10 ...

Ten dead as Israelis fire on Gaza Strip protesters
The Scotsman, UK - 1 hour ago
ISRAEL’S army yesterday said it would continue its operation in the Gaza Strip, despite a wave of international revulsion over the killing of ten ...

US abstains as Security Council calls on Israel to stop ...
San Francisco Chronicle, CA - 2 hours ago
With a rare US abstention, the UN Security Council Wednesday criticized Israel's military foray into the Gaza Strip and called for a halt to the illegal ...

Israeli army kills 10 in strike on Palestinian rally in Gaza
Irish Times (subscription), Ireland - 2 hours ago
It started as a peaceful rally along the littered streets of Rafah town in the southern Gaza Strip, and ended in bloodshed. The ...



From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 20 May 2004 08:21 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is interesting - one of those headlines said that the US abstained from a Security Council vote against Israel. That's not normal is it? Don't they normally veto?

WingNut is right. I know it's awful to tell people to be sitting ducks - but peaceful protest is the best way to win world sympathy. I mean, the IOF is going to butcher Palestinians no matter what, since they have been all along, so it would be smart for the Palestinians to be seen as unaggressive as possible, thereby highlighting IOF aggression.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 20 May 2004 08:48 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
one of those headlines said that the US abstained from a Security Council vote against Israel. That's not normal is it? Don't they normally veto?

No, not normal, and yes, they usually do. I suspect this is as firm a rebuke as Bush is going to deliver, though, although maybe Powell or Rice will be allowed to speak more forcefully.

Besides, it is a little difficult this morning, especially, for Bush to be rebuking another country's military for murdering civilians when his own has just done worse.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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posted 20 May 2004 11:10 AM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
About two months ago I went to see a presentation by a Palestinian doctor who said that up to that point, the IDF had destroyed 80,000 homes in the occupied territories. As noted this week, the destructios of these buildings is not limited to so-called terrorists homes but to creating wide swaths clearings for the IDF to patrol and to create buffers between the occupied territories and the Egyptian border.
From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 20 May 2004 12:44 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Israeli soldiers can rest easy, though. It seems that killing civilians is A-okay with the Big Guy.

In accordance to the age-old custom of religion used to justify mass murder, ,Rabbi Dov Lior, Chairman of the Jewish Rabbinical Council says:

quote:
"during warfare, killing non-Jewish civilians is permitted if it saves Jewish lives".

and

quote:
Lior then issued a religious edict, saying, "a thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail".

Gott mit Uns.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 20 May 2004 12:47 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oooh. A moral leader for our time.

If you follow his logic, in context with his viewpoint, then every non-Jew in the world should be killed. Can you imagine if a Muslim religious leader made a similar statement? It would be all over the media. With this one, I won't hold my breath.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 May 2004 12:54 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
If you follow his logic, in context with his viewpoint, then every non-Jew in the world should be killed.

Well, not quite. He said "during warfare", and right now, Israel is not at war with every non-Jew in the world.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 20 May 2004 12:56 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gosh. That guy is a raving racist, right down to belief in the purity of people's blood.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 20 May 2004 03:13 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee, what will the raving lunatics among the christian right make of that statement?

I have a good mind to ask.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 20 May 2004 08:53 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
IDF planning to evacuate Beit El East outpost

quote:
"Israel's Arab citizens must be given the right of return back to the Arab countries and we must implement the Torah laws forbidding them to live in Israel," said Rabbi Dov Lior, chairman of the Yesha rabbis.

Let's imagine that someone else said this:

"America's black citizens must be given the right of return back to the African countries and we must implement the Jim Crow laws forbidding them to live in the USA."

The crud would hit the fan so hard it'd fly off to Pluto. Yet when a learned, respected rabbi says such a racist thing, nobody bats an eyelid.

No to the Partition Plan - The Vision of Eretz Yisrael Lives On! (An advertisement, the website says)

quote:
Eretz Yisrael is the homeland of the Jewish people – it is ours, exclusively. The land was bequeathed to the Jewish people by the Creator of the Universe, in its entirety, it was and always will be, our only homeland. The Jewish people are not conquerors of their own land, rather are the single lawful sovereign within it. After two thousand years we have returned to resettle the land, all parts of it.

The whole land must fall under the full sovereignty of the State of Israel and be open to Jewish settlement, which will continue and expand, with G-d’s help, in accordance with the historic, Divinely ordained return to Zion.


United States, Manifest Destiny, anyone?

The rhetoric and the casual dismissal of the fact that other people live where this group of people wants to expand and take hold of is not all that different from the bombastic pronunciamentos in the USA in the 1800s about the "Manifest Destiny" that the US should rule all of North America.

...and along the way tens of thousands of aboriginal peoples were killed, uprooted and shoved off to the side as the USA expanded its borders.

[ 20 May 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
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posted 20 May 2004 11:04 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Palestinian doctors despair at rising toll of children shot dead by army snipers

quote:
"A preliminary investigation indicates they were killed by a bomb intended to be used against soldiers. It was set outside a building by Palestinians to hit an Israeli vehicle. This is probably what happened," a military spokesman said yesterday.

Dr Ali Moussa, head of Rafah hospital, is as furious at the claim as he is at Israel's assertion that almost all the 20 or more people killed during the army's seizure of the Tel al-Sultan district of the Rafah refugee camp were armed men.

"They are liars, liars, liars, because these children have bullet wounds to the head. There is no doubt about it," he says.



From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 20 May 2004 11:46 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was shocked when I read the New York Times article today about the killing of the protestors in Gaza. Shock because it was on the front page. Maybe there is hope.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
badhaddad
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posted 20 May 2004 11:46 PM      Profile for badhaddad        Edit/Delete Post
I want to add my voice to the cries of outrage over the tragedy in Rafah.

Why did the Palestinian Authority choose to march a crowd of civilians – including school children – into a war zone? I wouldn’t want my children used this way. Would you?


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 21 May 2004 12:01 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They live in a war zone, asshole.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 21 May 2004 12:02 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It was on the front page of the Toronto dailies as well. I was shocked to see that the subway daily "24" had a leading picture and a sympathetic headline (can't remember the exact words, something like, "children slain").

Wingy...count to ten...I'm furious too, but let's not let him provoke a flame war in this thread.

[ 21 May 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
badhaddad
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 21 May 2004 12:04 AM      Profile for badhaddad        Edit/Delete Post
Why did the Palestinian Authority abandon peace talks and launch the current terrorist war against Israel in the first place?

Why do Palestinian terrorists hide in refugee camps? Why do they engage Israeli troops in densely populated areas? Such deliberate endangerment of civilians is a war crime.

Why does the UN allow Palestinians to use refugee camps as terrorist bases? If it doesn’t want to police the terrorists, perhaps the UN should move the Rafah refugee camp beyond tunneling distance from Egypt.

Why does Egypt allow arms smuggling into Rafah? If the Egyptians patrolled their side of the border, the Israeli incursion wouldn’t have happened in the first place.

Why does the international press report unconfirmed accounts of massacres? Did the media learn nothing from their careless reporting of the invented “massacre” in Jenin?

During Operation Rainbow, has any Israeli soldier deliberately killed any Palestinian civilian? No. There is no evidence whatsoever of even one deliberate slaying of a civilian.

Did an Israeli helicopter fire any missiles into the demonstration on May 19 in Rafah? No. Apparently, to deter the crowd, one missile and two flares were fired harmlessly into an open area.

Did a tank fire several rounds into the crowd? No. Though it appears one round went astray, causing casualties. Israel is suggesting the protesters may have been killed by a bomb intended for Israeli troops. Seems unlikely to me.

On the other hand, the media earlier reported that the IDF shot two kids. The IDF investigated and found they were blown up by a terrorist booby trap. Apparently, much of Rafah is strung with such devices, just waiting for whoever stumbles across them (another war crime, by the way).

After the deaths on Wednesday, were Israeli troops ordered to refrain from shooting tank shells as deterrent fire? Yes, and a good thing, too. The practice of firing tank rounds as a deterrent was an accident waiting to happen – especially given that the Palestinian leadership regularly uses civilian pawns.

Were armed gunmen in the crowd of demonstrators? According to the IDF, yes. According to two Reuter reporters, yes. According to the people who invented the Jenin massacre, no.

I expect the IDF is right. But it’s the media that likes instant truth. There is no such animal. We’ll have to wait awhile yet before we can say for sure what happened.

Was this incursion a good idea? I think not. A very deep moat, closing off the arms-smuggling tunnels for all time strikes me as a good idea. But to invade Rafah to close down tunnels that can be dug again next week? To kill a few terrorist foot soldiers? Where is the strategic gain? I think the operation has been a foolish waste of lives.

How many were killed? Ten apparently. Are these deaths a tragedy? From the standpoint of any civilized human being? Absolutely. From the standpoint of the Palestinian leadership? No. They’re merely a propaganda coup.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
badhaddad
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5662

posted 21 May 2004 12:17 AM      Profile for badhaddad        Edit/Delete Post
No Nuts, writes,

"They [Palestinian kids in Rafah] live in a war zone, asshole."

So... you're suggesting, since Palestinian terrorists have decided to base themselves in Rafah and turn it into a war zone, it makes it okay to use the local kids as cannon fodder?


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
badhaddad
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posted 21 May 2004 12:21 AM      Profile for badhaddad        Edit/Delete Post
I repeat, I wouldn't want my kids marched into a battle zone, the way the PA marched the kids in Rafah over to where the fighting was going on. Would you?
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 21 May 2004 12:25 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No need to repeat yourself, badhaddad. We read it the first time and answered you. Their whole neighbourhood IS a war zone because of the IOF.

P.S. Gosh, what a nice handle you've chosen for babble, too. You're a teacher, huh? What class do you teach, Ethnic Slurs 101?

[ 21 May 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
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posted 21 May 2004 12:30 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why are Israelis sending their children to kill Palestinian children?

Bumped into a young Israeli on the subway recently. He said he will never get forget the things he did while in the army.

Why are Israelis using tanks to control protests?

Why are Israelis in the Gaza strip at all?


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
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posted 21 May 2004 01:00 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
P.S. Gosh, what a nice handle you've chosen for babble, too. You're a teacher, huh? What class do you teach, Ethnic Slurs 101?

Maybe he's Bizarro Jim Keegstra.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 21 May 2004 01:10 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd like to know why Israel insists on sending there people to settle in a war zone, thereby inspiring the war in the first place, and getting them killed at the same time.

Nice leaflet Badbadbad. Its old, its used beyond repair, but its a favourite of people who are living in the mindset of 1933 Wiemar. I am sure I will read something equally ignorant in the paper tomorrow.

Say! Do you guys all cop from the same writer, or you think that stuff up all on your own?

[ 21 May 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
mjollnir
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5618

posted 21 May 2004 09:02 AM      Profile for mjollnir        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by badhaddad:
Why did the Palestinian Authority abandon peace talks and launch the current terrorist war against Israel in the first place?

Why do Palestinian terrorists hide in refugee camps? Why do they engage Israeli troops in densely populated areas? Such deliberate endangerment of civilians is a war crime.

Why does the UN allow Palestinians to use refugee camps as terrorist bases? If it doesn’t want to police the terrorists, perhaps the UN should move the Rafah refugee camp beyond tunneling distance from Egypt.

Why does Egypt allow arms smuggling into Rafah? If the Egyptians patrolled their side of the border, the Israeli incursion wouldn’t have happened in the first place.

Why does the international press report unconfirmed accounts of massacres? Did the media learn nothing from their careless reporting of the invented “massacre” in Jenin?

During Operation Rainbow, has any Israeli soldier deliberately killed any Palestinian civilian? No. There is no evidence whatsoever of even one deliberate slaying of a civilian.

Did an Israeli helicopter fire any missiles into the demonstration on May 19 in Rafah? No. Apparently, to deter the crowd, one missile and two flares were fired harmlessly into an open area.

Did a tank fire several rounds into the crowd? No. Though it appears one round went astray, causing casualties. Israel is suggesting the protesters may have been killed by a bomb intended for Israeli troops. Seems unlikely to me.

On the other hand, the media earlier reported that the IDF shot two kids. The IDF investigated and found they were blown up by a terrorist booby trap. Apparently, much of Rafah is strung with such devices, just waiting for whoever stumbles across them (another war crime, by the way).

After the deaths on Wednesday, were Israeli troops ordered to refrain from shooting tank shells as deterrent fire? Yes, and a good thing, too. The practice of firing tank rounds as a deterrent was an accident waiting to happen – especially given that the Palestinian leadership regularly uses civilian pawns.

Were armed gunmen in the crowd of demonstrators? According to the IDF, yes. According to two Reuter reporters, yes. According to the people who invented the Jenin massacre, no.

I expect the IDF is right. But it’s the media that likes instant truth. There is no such animal. We’ll have to wait awhile yet before we can say for sure what happened.

Was this incursion a good idea? I think not. A very deep moat, closing off the arms-smuggling tunnels for all time strikes me as a good idea. But to invade Rafah to close down tunnels that can be dug again next week? To kill a few terrorist foot soldiers? Where is the strategic gain? I think the operation has been a foolish waste of lives.

How many were killed? Ten apparently. Are these deaths a tragedy? From the standpoint of any civilized human being? Absolutely. From the standpoint of the Palestinian leadership? No. They’re merely a propaganda coup.


-The PA didn't abandon the peace talks, there was a change in the israeli government, remember? The fairy tale about the 97% of West Bank won't pass for an 80's disney movie

-Israel Co-Created Hamas, both directly and indirectly. Why do hamas members hide in refugee camps? Well, if they had wings they would live in the sky, but they don't; do you think they choose to live in a refugee camp? Maybe they do, after all- to quote a friend- who wouldn't choose the glory of a refugee camp over anything else? Oh, while we're at it perhaps the 1948 palestinians chose to leave their houses to live in refugee camps, that would certainly settle the enigma-wrapped-in-a-riddle of why they 'chose' to leave their land?

-Did Israel let the UN on the ground? How would they stop the terrorists if they aren't allowed to come in. As I recall, those 'terrorists' in the PA did ask the UN to come, it was the other terrorists, the 'civilized' ones that refused.

-Egypt doesn't have a military presence near Rafah, and btw, most of the weapons are bought from israel

-Let's see, israel has never commited massacres, it is always 'human error', or 'equipment malfunction',or 'those 2 year olds were firing RPGs at us, so we responded', isn't it? I don't remember Israel accepting the responsability for the Qana massacre. the UN said at least 55 died in Jenin, so I guess that doesn't qualify as a massacre. You see, you need 100 dead to qualify. Hey, that means Qana Was a massacre!

- Did any Israeli soldier kill a palestian on purpose? How on earth would we know if no obervers are ever present? I doubt the israeli army would ever publish a report if it happens.

- Since the tank shell went astray and hit the crowd, it makes it all better for them-they are less dead now. Speaking of which, why did a tank and a helicopter confront a peaceful march in the first place?

- The two kids were shot in the head on the roof on their house. Boy, what a creative booby trap that can take the role of a sniper. Again, the IDF can never do anything wrong, if you follow the israeli reports. The rest of the world is generally either wrong, or biased, or flat out stupid.

- Great, the tanks shouldn't fire 80mm rounds at peaceful demonstrations. I guess that wasn't common sense at all, to start with, but sometimes you learn the hard way...

-Armed with what? Generally for the IDF, when palestinians are carrying (Black Adder anyone?)
dried fruit, Mango Slices or Pineapples, they are considered armed an dangerous.

-Let's see, the tunnels issue. One hundred something houses destroyed, tree orchards, electricity posts, a Zoo (those rabbits can dig tunnels, maybe they're part of the big conspiracy against israel). How many tunnels were there? thousands? With such skills and efficiency UK/France should have hired them to dig the Manche Tunnel, they probably would have finished it in less than a month.

-More than forty were killed, and it's not about the number. This was all a retaliation for killing 13 israeli soldiers in GAZA. And Israel never manipulated the media for anything in the past, God forbid.


From: NY | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
badhaddad
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5662

posted 21 May 2004 12:56 PM      Profile for badhaddad        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle writes,

"Their whole neighbourhood IS a war zone because of the IOF"

Except you know that's not true.

All the military activity was in a blocked off area. The PA organized a demonstration full of children and marched them over to where the fighting was.

My guess is you don't have children. If you did, you might find it objectionable to have them used for cannon fodder.

"a war zone because of the IOF"

You seem confused, Michelle. It's the Palestinian terrorist groups using Rafah for arms smuggling. While you may think this is perfectly okay because the terrorists intend to use the arm only for killing Israeli Jews, I imagine even you can see how Israelis might object.

(By the way, the IOF is the International Order of Foresters - I don't think they're in Gaza.)

Of course, Palestinians don’t support with the terrorists anymore, either. More Palestinians are against continuing the war against Israel than are for it. No surprise there. Their war has brought nothing but misery for Palestinians, when they could have had their own state almost 4 years ago….

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=19748


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 May 2004 01:02 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My guess is you don't have children. If you did, you might find it objectionable to have them used for cannon fodder.

I predict a short career for this poster on babble.


quote:
While you may think this is perfectly okay because the terrorists intend to use the arm only for killing Israeli Jews,

And it just got shorter.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 May 2004 01:20 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So badhaddad, can you give me a reading list for your Ethnic Slurs 101 course? Are you warping primary school-aged minds or high school teens?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 21 May 2004 01:24 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
(By the way, the IOF is the International Order of Foresters - I don't think they're in Gaza.)

quote:
"Their whole neighbourhood IS a war zone because of the IOF"

Except you know that's not true.


Oh, so when somebody occupies your country illegally and steals your land, your country isn't a war zone. Silly me. Appeatances can be soooo deceiving.

quote:
My guess is you don't have children. If you did, you might find it objectionable to have them used for cannon fodder.

You know what, today's my birthday, so I am taking this one.

badhaddad: You are stupid and ignorant, not to mention uneducated and likely a racist and your trolling this board. I find it appalling that anyone would even let you near children to teach them, let alone reproduce with you. Any children that have come in contact with you have my pity. Now kindly fuck off. Thanks.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 21 May 2004 01:28 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Happy burpday, Scout!
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 21 May 2004 01:37 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Go Scout; and I'll bet he's a Sens fan to boot.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 21 May 2004 01:42 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A Sens fan??? No, that would require some nobility
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 May 2004 01:45 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Happy birthday, Scout!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 May 2004 01:47 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Happy Birthday, Scout!
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 21 May 2004 01:50 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Yes, Happy happy, Scout! So, slaughtering any large mammal yourself to roast for the big day?

[ 21 May 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 21 May 2004 01:53 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hee hee! Thanks guys. I may have a large steak tonight but I am leaning toward Oysters. I love oysters with fresh horseradish! Yummy! And a nice glass of red, not plonk for me tonight.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
flotsom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2832

posted 21 May 2004 02:43 PM      Profile for flotsom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This f.o.f. (former oyster-farmer) loves oysters, but suggests one savour the delicious creatures without the evil horseradish.

Happy birthday, Scout!


From: the flop | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 21 May 2004 03:38 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That sounds like it must have been an interesting and unique job. I hope you didn't eat all the profits!

What do you suggest if anything as a condiment? I like lemon and I have had yummy wine vinegars on them and the odd spicy sauce as well. Never cocktail sauce though!


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 21 May 2004 05:07 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Haaretz continues its brave stand against its bellicose government; would that the American press would learn from their Israeli peers.

We're in Bad Hands
-Gideon Samet

quote:
This combination of a government that has no path and an army that has lost its way because of it, has been harming national interests for years. It's not only war, as they say, that is too serious to be left to the generals. The same holds true for civilian government. The understanding that exists between the top brass in the army and the government is what contributes to the lack of clear "civilian" thinking and critical awareness. How can any creative policy emerge from a line-up that consists of Sharon, Mofaz and Ya'alon, with ministers like Benny Elon, whose latest idea is to send the Palestinians to Australia, screaming on the sidelines?

bold mine.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 21 May 2004 05:21 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And once again in this link we have the weird combination of "curfew" with Israeli soldiers sniping anything that moves, with loudspeakered orders to come out and assemble, followed by shooting people when they come out. It's all so bizarre, so bereft of any purpose but to terrorize. How long until, when the people assemble, they're all systematically mowed down rather than just a few of them killed? How long until they're all loaded on buses to the Jordanian border?
How long until people start dying of thirst just from the goddamn curfew?!?

From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged

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