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Author Topic: Arab lives worth less: Israeli spokeswoman
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 April 2004 07:28 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Yes, we knew there were children, but we had to kill the terrorists."

Like other Israeli officials and spokespersons, Dotan [Amira Dotan, a spokeswoman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry] believes that these actions were justified so as to protect Israeli lives.

"If we hadn't killed those Palestinian children, then the terrorist would have killed three or four times as many Israelis."


Should she get points for honesty?

quote:

'Macabre reasoning'

Palestinian officials, including jurists and human rights activists, strongly reject and condemn this "macabre reasoning".

"Killing knowingly is killing deliberately and premeditatedly. It is a war crime which no amount of verbal juggling can extenuate," said Hanna Issa, a prominent Palestinian legal expert and Director-General of the Palestinian Ministry of Justice.

"They know in advance that children are sleeping in the targeted building, none the less, they carry out the killing without batting an eyelash … and then they shed the crocodile tears and claim that the killing was accidental or happened by mistake"


Link

[ 17 April 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 17 April 2004 07:44 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So when do we get to see Palestinian-Arabs referred to as "undesirables", and herded onto trains to be "shipped East"?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 17 April 2004 07:58 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
So when do we get to see Palestinian-Arabs referred to as "undesirables", and herded onto trains to be "shipped East"?
AS stupid as the foreign department's spokesperson was in her bigoted statement, this from you Doctor is far worse.

Invoking Nazi imagery to Jews/Israelis in general (as this so cleverly does) is abhorrent especially in a time when Jews are being targeted world-wide for the perceived crimes of Israel. It is exactly what Jewish leaders refer to when identifying uncivil and demonic language being used against Jews and Israelis. Im truly sad and shocked that you even posted such drivel.

[ 17 April 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 17 April 2004 08:00 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Yes, but it does piss you off, and is it highly entertaining to watch you go off the spool in such a predictable manner.

...no, wait, it isn't.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 17 April 2004 08:01 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know. Ariel Sharon would look good in Herman Goering's old uniform. Except it would probably be way too tight on him.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 April 2004 08:02 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
perceived crimes

One person's massacre is another's justice, eh, Mac?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 17 April 2004 08:04 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes of course given half a chance all the old nazi imagery against Israel and its leaders comes vomitting out. The fact that most decent people find this obscene probably bothers you not a whit.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 17 April 2004 08:09 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, where exactly is the moral line between deliberately and with authorization sniping down children in their homes and loading people onto trains to be "shipped east"? Is it in the mass numbers? The bureaucratic detachment? What exactly is the moral distinction?
From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 April 2004 08:12 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, children are dying today.

Do you really think that they matter less?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 17 April 2004 08:54 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, Macabee. By implication from your reaction here, you really do seem to think that those children matter less.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 17 April 2004 09:12 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, about the only bloody difference in the two scenarios is that the Palestinian-Arabs will just be dumped somewhere east of the Jordan river and told to go fend for themselves.

The net effect is the same: Removal of an entire population of people for entirely selfish, inhumane and wanton motives.

The line is blurring dangerously, Macabee. At some point the distinction will be lost, and you will still call me demonic (which you claimed you never called anyone) because I am calling a spade a spade.

People like you were successful at shutting me up 15 years ago when, flush with the reading of tens of books on World War II and the destruction of the Weimar Republic, I noticed appalling similarities between the poor treatment of Palestinian-Arabs in the 1980s and the first attempts at ghettoization of Jews in the 1930s. Foolishly believing that everyone was as logical as I was, I tried to say this.

Of course, people like you blew a gasket and told me to shut up, although not in those exact words. But it was clear that trying to articulate a similarity and hoping to steer a different path can be ignored, and even punished.

Just like today, people compare the USA to the Soviet Union, with increasing Governmental control over the songbook the media sings from, and the lack of effective opposition to prevailing policies, and those people who try to make the comparison are shouted down and ridiculed.

Macabee, you will never be able to hang an anti-Semite designation upon me because I am not anti-Semitic. You would do well to note the distinction between my generally pronounced anti-religious bias and anti-Semitism. I do not attribute offensive characteristics to Jews. I do not believe that they are trying to take over the world or any of that ridiculous crap.

I do take exception to organized religion and the belief in supreme Deities or beings, or even the supernatural, but that has everything to do with my fundamental grounding in science and my own life experiences where it turned out God wasn't around to snap his fingers and make me not-gay.

Have a care when you throw around words like "demonic", Macabee.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 17 April 2004 11:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't know. Ariel Sharon would look good in Herman Goering's old uniform. Except it would probably be way too tight on him.

I always thought Goering's uniforms were ultra gauche. The ones that Himmler had made by Hugo Boss for the SS were much more stylish.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 17 April 2004 11:20 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There was a theory that the side with the best uniforms ultimately lose any war. The Confederates had sharper greys, they lose. The Germans, with the full length leather coats and basic black, ditto. Russians in Afganistan. The Americans, though not in any sense stylish, had more marshall looking uniforms than the NVA, but that didn't help them.

One could counter that the US had the snazzier getup during the first gulf war, and they won. But I argue that particular war never really ended, and what we are seeing today are the results. The Marines are digging in, Kut and at least one other city are under Muj control, and the bodies keep flowing back to Dover. The jury's still out.

Anyway, destroy the occupation(s).


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 17 April 2004 11:28 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One could counter that the US had the snazzier getup during the first gulf war, and they won. But I argue that particular war never really ended, and what we are seeing today are the results. The Marines are digging in, Kut and at least one other city are under Muj control, and the bodies keep flowing back to Dover. The jury's still out.

You are right about the wars being one and the same. Even the legal pretext that the US used at the UN, was that the 1991 war ended in a truce, and that Iraq broke that truce through WMD developement -- the phrase was material breach, I believe.

While I never liked the NVA uniforms, all that Khaki (sheesh!) I thought the simple black sported by the VC was pretty sharp, same uniform that is in use by the Mahdi army actually. Black is, well, black. And black is good for night time operations.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 17 April 2004 11:34 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It was good thinking on the part of DND to issue Canadians such bloody awful uniforms like the puke green unifications dress, the polyester bus driver suits, the camo garrison jacket, and the america-aping current dress uniforms. Now that's strategic thinking! Dress like crap, never lose.

The old green combat pants, though: Best Pants Ever.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 18 April 2004 12:50 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Macabee, children are dying today.

Do you really think that they matter less?



Did I say such a thingf? Of course not. Why make such a vile accusation?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 18 April 2004 12:53 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The line is blurring dangerously, Macabee. At some point the distinction will be lost, and you will still call me demonic (which you claimed you never called anyone) because I am calling a spade a spade.


The comparision of Israel/ Jews to nazis is demonic and anti-Semitic. That is what I truly believe. Take what you want from it.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 18 April 2004 01:32 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, it has been shown time and again that all too often the abused repeat the crimes of their abusers. Child molestation victims become molesters themselves. Sons who were beaten by their fathers for the minutest of infractions often find themselves repeating the same old destructive habits with their own children.

And so on, and so forth.

Is it not plausibly at all logical to suspect that this could occur on a societal level? That a people, scarred as they have been from war and attempted genocide, should unfortunately find themselves unconsciously repeating, not necessarily the exact same behaviors, but the same basic chauvinistic process, in an all-too-understandable response that the best defence is a good offence?

Macabee, I am a scientist. The truism I was taught, that all of us were taught, time and again was this:

If you observe data and it conflicts with the theory, believe the data, NOT the theory.

The data is telling me that the Israeli Government is repeating a destructive pattern of behaviors seen all too commonly among other governments at other times - the same denigration of the pain and suffering of the subject population and the same excuses being made for the behavior of the dominant population.

These are the true "facts on the ground", Macabee, and all you can do is take refuge in trying to label me an anti-Semite for refusing to ignore the dangerously blindingly obvious.

When Palestinian-Arabs are referred to as "lice" by government officials, what am I supposed to think?

When Palestinian-Arabs are hemmed in, walled off, shot at, and in general mistreated every day for the crimes of a comparatively few members of their population, real or imagined, what am I supposed to think?

When Israeli Government officials openly talk of the notion of wholesale "transfer" - remember that term? "Transfer"? - of the Palestinian-Arab population, what am I supposed to think?

When the Israeli Government has embarked on policies involving the deliberate resettlement of a non-indigenous population into occupied areas in violation of the Geneva Convention, the same Geneva Convention that was ratified after World War 2 in response to the horrors of that war, what am I supposed to think?

How dare you set yourself up as the censor and moral arbiter of what parallels I am and am not allowed to see, Macabee?

If you were my student and I your professor, and you insisted on wilfilly ignoring data and, in effect, cheating on your lab reports, I would be giving you a failing grade right about now.

[ 18 April 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 18 April 2004 02:26 AM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Macabee, I am a scientist.
.
.
.
If you were my student and I your professor, and you insisted on wilfilly ignoring data and, in effect, cheating on your lab reports, I would be giving you a failing grade right about now.

Say, Doc, aren't you the same DrConway who, on March 19, 2004, had this to say:

quote:
I have made a conscious decision to remain in British Columbia at the same university in which I am undertaking undergraduate studies.
.
.
.
The GPA requirement is not onerous, but does need to be maintained, and barring major difficulties I hope to have a path paved to grad school when I get my B.Sc

So, what are you, Doc, a scientist or a student?

[ 18 April 2004: Message edited by: DavidB-D ]


From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 18 April 2004 02:27 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is no reason why a student cannot be a scientist.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 18 April 2004 02:30 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh look! It's DavidB-D, showing us all the great new improved Debating Tactic!

"When you have nothing useful to say, nitpick at some irrelevant detail that seems to be tangentially related to the main point!"

Thanks so much, we couldn't have done it without you!

PS. I want to teach after graduate studies.

[ 18 April 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 18 April 2004 03:24 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
The comparision of Israel/ Jews to nazis is demonic and anti-Semitic. That is what I truly believe. Take what you want from it.

OK, so you believe the comparison is demonic. And you can make a good case that because of historical reasons, the horror of the holocaust, and the contemporary problems faced by the Jewish community and so forth, it's a bad thing to make such a comparison.

But I ask you again--is there actually a *moral* distinction? A *moral* characteristic that makes the behaviour of these IDF snipers less evil than Nazis? Let's see--they're in charge, in control, in a powerful, regimented military. And they're told it's OK, so they shoot children in cold blood in their own homes. And they would never, ever do it to a Jewish child, but Palestinians are, basically, surplus. Doubtless they tell themselves that, sure, the kid wasn't a terrorist *yet*, but he would have grown up to be one--it's in their nature.
What is the *moral* difference between one of these men and a Nazi trooper? Where is the line you can draw and say, someone in the SS would have done X evil act, but this IDF sniper would not, would refuse such an order as too evil? I really would like to see such a line, see some hope here. But the only hope I can see is that maybe the rot hasn't spread so far it can't be stopped at some point.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 18 April 2004 04:47 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It was good thinking on the part of DND to issue Canadians such bloody awful uniforms like the puke green unifications dress, the polyester bus driver suits, the camo garrison jacket, and the america-aping current dress uniforms. Now that's strategic thinking! Dress like crap, never lose.

The old green combat pants, though: Best Pants Ever.


If your theory holds out, then Canadain forces should do well where ver they are stationed. Yet I can not help but be reminded of Saddam's Republican Guard:

Exteremly ugly uniforms do not always lead to success.

[ 18 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 18 April 2004 01:29 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
AS stupid as the foreign department's spokesperson was in her bigoted statement, this from you Doctor is far worse.

Of course it is.
A statement by one person on a messgae board is always far worse than the racism expressed by official persons and policy of Israel.

Stand back and put yourself in the shoes of palestinians for a few moments, macabee. You will hate Israel too.

It isn't hard to hate an oppressive, racist regime bent on erasing you and your people from the earth.

But isn't that what Jewish supporters of Israel fear? Funny how easily one can travel from oppressed to oppressor and adopt the same arguments, lies and methods, eh?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 18 April 2004 05:06 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't ask the Likudniks what "never again" means.

They forgot.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 18 April 2004 05:51 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
...demonic language...

Guess I'll join the niggle-fest. It's seems about the only appropriate response to childish rhetoric like the above...

For your information, Macabee, 'demons' are a feature of medieval Christian mythology. They are a non-corporeal entity carrying out various nefarious acts of evil and subterfuge on behalf of Satan - a supposedly goat-horned dude who lives in a hot place in the centre of the Earth. This 'Satan' character - roughly based on the older 'Lucifer' (literally the 'bringer of light') character - holds sway as the supreme emodiment of all that is 'evil'(D-evil?). He heads up a cadre of devilish bureaucrats (minions to be precise) who are dedicated to plotting and enacting an endless series of suspicious plans for destruction and creating mayhem in what would otherwise be a world characterised by order and 'goodness'. The psychiatric implications of this paranaoic worldview are too much to get into here, but suffice it to say that such a paranoid weltangschuung easily results in various acts of self-justified violence (framed as self-protection) against this invisible, yet percieved threat.

More interestingly, the values of 'good' and 'evil' in this world of 'angels' and 'demons' are values determined by groups of mostly sex-less middle aged men in black robes who perform various nonsensical and mystifying ceremonial rites, the meaning of which is either deliberately hidden from the supposedly uninitiated or entirely unknown to both the 'priests' and the 'laymen'. The ability to abstain (mostly) from sex, follow the orders of more experienced 'priests' and to encourage other non-priests to believe that priests are embued with the disciplinary 'Power of God' are really all that distinguishes this group who would decide 'Good' and 'Evil' for the remainder of us.

Even still, they have had success in promulgating this strange idea that there are supernatural beings such as 'angels' and 'demons' parading around, largely unseen, carrying out various deeds in service of a great Manachean, Gnostic-esque battle of Light and Darkness. Again, though, this battle is only fully understood by these men (for some reason, people without willies are excluded from the disciplinary power of God) in their black robes carrying out their funny parades of incense and cryptic chanting.

As absurd as all this seems, these strange black-robed beings have managed to inculcate a great proportion of the earth with their absurd and fanciful 'morality' and mangaged to communicate their childish dreams of 'angels' and 'demons' with such force, that the results still infect the general social and personal psychology of people living centuries later.

What, exactly, is 'demonic' about the language being used by antisemites?

I'm curious how you could really know. Do you speak 'Demonese'? Do you have a black robe and a willy? Or do you roll a few 10-sided dice when you are conjouring up this knowledge of 'Demonese'?

Do you have a cloak of invisibility too?

And here I thought it was those 'evil' Islamo-Fascists who were caught in the 13th Century...

This topic has been successfully derailed....

[ 18 April 2004: Message edited by: Courage ]


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 18 April 2004 06:20 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I'm sorry. I really wish I didn't see these parallels. I honestly wish I didn't. Yet, I do.

I cannot ignore the observations I make. I can no more ignore what I see in the actions of the Israeli Government than I can my experimental data.

The irony is that Macabee chooses to call me "demonic and anti-Semitic", because I took to heart - and still do - the admonition "never again". "Never again" to stand by and watch other nations oppress subject populations, or to watch ethnic factions war against each other in genocidal battles, and simply shrug.

"Never again" to watch people being harassed or beaten or shot at just because of their skin color, or religious affiliation, and just shrug and do nothing.

I believed, 15 years ago, that the admonition "never again" meant to be clear-eyed and willing to warn the world when a situation would develop that involved the oppression of one group of humans by another.

I still do, but it is clear that other people do not believe this, and instead choose to try and shout down and dismiss people who want to end the destructive state of affairs in parts of this world.

People wasted years doing nothing about Rwanda, even as good-hearted men and women tried to warn of the dangers of letting such a conflict spiral out of control.

People wasted years doing nothing about the Yugoslavian civil war, even though people with clear eyes and minds insisted that the fratricidal war be stopped as quickly as possible.

And now people will waste years excusing the "security" wall or the IDF's actions in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, even as the extremist factions in the Palestinian-Arab population seize upon this as their cause to engage in the most futile of all acts - blowing oneself up in the vicinity of others.

And yet I am the anti-Semite because I want to point out the dangers of the direction the Israeli Government is following.

I have truly stepped into the bizarro world of the other side of Alice in Wonderland's mirror.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
The_Calling
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posted 18 April 2004 06:56 PM      Profile for The_Calling   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Nazis are considered to be the top example of a tyrannical, bigoted, belligrent power. That is why countries are frequently compared to it. It isn't just Israel. If the US or Sudan can be, Israel should be to. Israel is not, in the words of one pro-Israel person, "special so normal rules don't apply to it." We as progressives should oppose injustice everywhere and with the same standard. If we hold Israel to a lower standard, we cede the moral high ground when we denounce other injustices.

Speaking of charges of anti-Semitism, has anyone noticed how people are only called "anti" an entire group when they criticize the foreign actions of the American and Israeli state? No one is called "anti-Canadian" for denouncing Canada's stance on Iraq, "anti-British" for denouncing its position on the EU, or "anti-Morrocan" for denouncing Morrocan colonialism. The list goes on and on. Only criticism of the US and Israel is off-limits--and this is an export from the USA that I hope Canadians will reject.

That said, there is a legitimate complaint they have: Israel is singled out far more than other countries. Most of this is due to the fact that Israeli, unlike Turkey or Morocco, is in the world spotlight, but I believe we need to make an effort to focus on all injustice, not just Israeli crimes. Russia's crimes are a good example of an area we could focus on because we have access to news about it in the West.

[ 18 April 2004: Message edited by: The_Calling ]


From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 April 2004 12:18 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
True enough calling. Nazi Germany also complained about being put upon by the whole world, and he was right.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 April 2004 12:19 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
DOuble post.

[ 19 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 April 2004 12:24 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You guys must really love this nazi thing. It is almost fetishistic.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 April 2004 12:57 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Listen man, the things I wear when I go to parties has nothing to do with m political views.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 19 April 2004 02:13 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
You guys must really love this nazi thing. It is almost fetishistic.

I don't love it. But perhaps you could address the points I've raised in previous posts.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
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posted 19 April 2004 06:34 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doc C:

You say, "People wasted years doing nothing about the Yugoslavian civil war, even though people with clear eyes and minds insisted that the fratricidal war be stopped as quickly as possible."

Dateline: Falujah. Listen to the rhetoric of the Marine Corps jarheads on the nightly news. The rhetoric they are employing is almost identical to that used by the Milosevic government in defending their actions in Kosovo against Albanians...

The trope of the 'terrorist hiding in the Mosque' justifying the deaths of dozens upon dozens of civilians through shelling and seige tactics was apparently learned from the man currently sitting in the dock at Den Haag....


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 April 2004 07:38 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here we go 'round the Mulberry bush, the Mulberry bush, the Mulberry bush...

I know it's fun to push MishMac's buttons, youse guys, but a couple of those pile-on Nazi references were a bit gratuitous, don't you think? I mean, you know, Godwin's law and all...


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 19 April 2004 12:01 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I dunno, if the jackboot fits...
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Cueball
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posted 19 April 2004 12:02 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ROFL.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Udo
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posted 19 April 2004 06:54 PM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I for one though find it pretty distatsteful that you would use nazis as a humerous tool in this thread. This is what I would expect from a white supremacist board but not here..not here no excuse..especially today on Holocaust memorial Day.
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 19 April 2004 07:08 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It was not us who led this thread down this path.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 20 April 2004 12:35 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
It was not us who led this thread down this path.
So now we will be in to blaming the victim...what next?

I agree with Udo, it is outlandish that anyone proclaiming to have a social democratic position would endorse this kind of vulgarity. Ugh


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 20 April 2004 12:50 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is you who demand that we condemn X or Y because we are critics of present-day Zionist ideology and for some reason must prove our anti-anti-Semitic cred, but the horror of what that spokescritter said merits only a passing comment from you, amidst all the spluttering outrage about The Comparison That Dare Not Speak Its Name. It gets harder and harder to take it seriously.

You are worried about an uncomfortable comparison on a special commemorative day. This takes a higher priority to you than what is really becoming of the moral fibre of Israeli society that statements like that spokescritter become increasingly more common. Her serious words are likely to cause more immediate death than the black humour to which we resort in frustration with your shamelessness.


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WingNut
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posted 20 April 2004 01:04 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly and thank you.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 April 2004 02:20 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israeli cabinet minister marks holocaust remembrance day by announcing plans for more murders
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 20 April 2004 03:21 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, actually they intend to attack a target in a foreign country. What say you, those who plaintively complain about emotive comparisons to the Nazi's, whould you complain if Hamas were to target the Israeli embassy in this country? No doubt. Surely you would be again outraged, but your excuses for Isreali behaviour knows no boundaries, just as Sharon and his thugs obey none.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 20 April 2004 07:56 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israeli imposes 'racist' marriage law

The same Ezra. But I know. It's okay. They're Israeli.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 20 April 2004 08:21 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
It is you who demand that we condemn X or Y because we are critics of present-day Zionist ideology and for some reason must prove our anti-anti-Semitic cred, but the horror of what that spokescritter said merits only a passing comment from you, amidst all the spluttering outrage about The Comparison That Dare Not Speak Its Name. It gets harder and harder to take it seriously.

You are worried about an uncomfortable comparison on a special commemorative day. This takes a higher priority to you than what is really becoming of the moral fibre of Israeli society that statements like that spokescritter become increasingly more common. Her serious words are likely to cause more immediate death than the black humour to which we resort in frustration with your shamelessness.


No surprise here...obfuscate in order to defend nazi humour.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 April 2004 09:01 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
No surprise here...obfuscate in order to defend nazi humour.

The "nazi humour" in this thread was in response to your overdone, smarmy reaction to Doc's comment ("I'm sad and shocked blah blah blah"). (In passing, it's amazing how someone can be so "shocked" over and over again for over a year, is it not?) And the first person to do the "nazi humour" thing was josh. A self-hater, I'm sure, right?

If you didn't imply in every other post that babblers are anti-semites or are saying anti-semitic things, then maybe people wouldn't be so inclined to tease you and push your buttons.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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posted 20 April 2004 09:12 AM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Israeli imposes 'racist' marriage law

The same Ezra. But I know. It's okay. They're Israeli.


Just when I think my disgust for the actions and policies of the Israeli government can grow no stronger, this...


From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 April 2004 10:38 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Maybe Mish should go see a movie and lighten up.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 20 April 2004 11:53 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No surprise here...obfuscate in order to defend nazi humour.
No surprise here...deflect in order to distract from immoral Israeli actions.

From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Udo
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posted 20 April 2004 11:53 AM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And the first person to do the "nazi humour" thing was josh. A self-hater, I'm sure, right?

Who is Josh and why would you suggest he is a self-hater?

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 20 April 2004 12:03 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tell me Mishabee, which is more deserving of outrage:

1. Tasteless humour.

2. The murder of children as a policy choice.

This thread was intended to discuss 2. You derailed this thread to 1. Consequently, I guess 2 is not very important to you.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 April 2004 12:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Udo:
Who is Josh and why would you suggest he is a self-hater?

He's the person, in this thread, who made the first joke - scroll up, waaaaay up and you'll see it. Which Macabee has labelled as anti-semitic. And as most babblers (certainly the ones who have been around as long as Macabee) know since he has said so quite a few times on babble, he is Jewish.

Boy, nothing like having to explain a sarcastic comment. It just takes all the zip out of it!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 20 April 2004 12:22 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
josh has also told us that he is an American. Worse, he has confessed to being a lawyer.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 April 2004 12:50 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Clearly, something must be done.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 20 April 2004 12:53 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Q. How many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb?

A. That's privileged communication. Sorry.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 April 2004 12:56 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I saw this on a button the other day and have been dying for a chance to use it:

Why experiment on animals when there are so many lawyers?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 20 April 2004 01:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And then there's the ever-popular:

Q: What do you call a dozen lawyers at the bottom of Lake Ontario?

A: A good start.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 20 April 2004 01:12 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nazi jokes are one thing, but lawyer jokes? Those really say a lot about the moral fibre of this board.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 April 2004 01:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, I'm starting to feel guilty about this, considering the fine lawyers we have on babble. But not quite guilty enough to stop.

Q. If a lawyer and a mobster jump off a building at the same time, who will hit the ground first?

A. Who cares?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 20 April 2004 01:29 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A lawyer and his friend are jogging through the woods when they hear a bear in the brush behind them.

"Thank goodness I'm wearing my new Nike AirGlide3000 running shoes!" exclaims the lawyer.

"It won't make any difference", says his friend, "even with those, you can't run faster than a bear!"

"Uh, I don't actually have to run faster than the bear...", replies the lawyer.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 April 2004 01:36 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I think we've managed to successfully derail this thread all on our own, without any help from Macabee and Udo this time.

Maybe we should get back on topic, though. The topic being...well, Mandos spells it out well. Refer to his post above.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Udo
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posted 20 April 2004 03:34 PM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why bother. You guys are such a hoot
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 20 April 2004 09:15 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok then, back to the topic of the thread:

Ugly uniforms... the secret to success of the British Empire?

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for her-self
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house
Against the envy of less happier lands
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm,

this England.

Remember those silly helmets they made the Tommys wear in ww2?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 06 May 2004 01:15 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Incidentally, I found this. It seems that highly-placed officials in the Israeli Government are once again openly making racist remarks and not being punished for it. In Canada, I seem to recall that an MP used the "n" word for black people and was promptly thumped for it. In Israel, it seems, in the "Only Democracy (TM)" of the Middle East, one can be an utter boor and make remarks fit for the gutter, and yet not suffer censure or humiliation for it.

Do Macabee et al. now deny that Deputy Defence Minister Boim said: "What is it about Islam as a whole and the Palestinians in particular? Is it some form of cultural deprivation? Is it some genetic defect? There is something that defies explanation in this continued murderousness."

Do they deny that MK Hazan then said "He's right. It's been a known fact for many years that the Arabs slaughter and murder Jews, without any connection to land. It's imprinted in their blood. It's something genetic. I haven't done research, but there's no possibility of explaining it differently. You can't believe an Arab, even one who's 40 years in his grave."

"Imprinted in their blood".
"Genetic defect".
"You can't believe [even a dead] Arab."

Chilling comments.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 06 May 2004 02:59 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, I *want* to eschew Nazi comparisons, I really do, but damn they make it hard. I mean, how precisely does this resemble the way Nazis talked about Jews? It's really, really frightening.
From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 06 May 2004 04:05 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:
You know, I *want* to eschew Nazi comparisons, I really do, but damn they make it hard. I mean, how precisely does this resemble the way Nazis talked about Jews? It's really, really frightening.

I have no problem saying that the current Isreali government shares some similarities with Adolf Hitler's government. I do have problems with people comparing what the Isrealis are doing to the Palistineians as a holocaust. The comparison is flawed. The occupation is brutal and has traumatized both Jews and Arabs but it is NOT a halocaust. Not yet anyway.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 May 2004 09:20 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

I have no problem saying that the current Isreali government shares some similarities with Adolf Hitler's government. I do have problems with people comparing what the Isrealis are doing to the Palistineians as a holocaust. The comparison is flawed. The occupation is brutal and has traumatized both Jews and Arabs but it is NOT a halocaust. Not yet anyway.


Anyone who believes such tripe has no understanding of history. You cannot just say that there is the odd thing Israel does that is nazi-like.

Nazism was a total racist, murdering philosophy. Once you invoke the image you immediatley demonize. Either you are Nazi or you are not. Forgive the analogy but its like being a little bit pregnant.

So fair warning, especially when you use the nazi imagery against Jews. Either be prepared to say someone is nazi and prove it totally or be called on the carpet for it.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 09 May 2004 09:40 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
SO what lessons exactly are we allowed to derive from the holocaust and the Nazi's?

And if we are allowed to learn any lessons from the Holocaust and Nazism, then at which point in the development and history of each are we suppose to pay attention to, and which parts of the development and history are we suppose to ignore?

Nazism and the Holocause wasn't some "eqrthquake" that happened during some two minute period one saturday afternoon . . . ther are years and years of incidents, actions, and inactions to learn from.

This nonsense that tries to force reasonable people to completely ignore all aspects of the Holocaust and the actions of those who participated in the evil event, except as a political tool to shut down critism of anything relating to right wing facist Israeli policies, is in a word, ANTI-SEMITISM . . . anti-semitism at it's most vile!! These assholes would allow another holocaust to occur right under our noses and justify it by saying they were respecting the memory of that horrible event . . . makes me want to puke!!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 09 May 2004 11:07 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I notice that Macabee has ignored the very recent comments by high Israeli Government officials that clearly indicate endemic, ingrained racist attitudes that probably prevail in the Likud political party.

The Palestinian-Arabs meted out their own form of justice to the minister that once called them "lice", but I notice Macabee is not calling for the application of Canadian-style hate propaganda laws against such high Government officials.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 10 May 2004 08:40 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel has never been shy in applying its own anti-hate laws. Indeed it even criminalized an extreme right-wing party in the Knesseth (Kach) and threw them out!! So enough of your ugly finger-pointing trying whenever you can to make Israel look evil.

And yes there are many lessons to learn from the Holocaust. The most important is to be able to recognize nazism when we see it. To claim that Israel is Nazi proves only that you and others who make this comparision do so for one singular purpose and that is to demonize Israel. Any person with a modicum of historical understanding will know what Nazism is...you clearly don't. Or if you do you dont care if you smear Israel with that ugly brush over and over again as the propaganda tool you wish it to be nothing else. Frankly it is so extreme that most Canadians scoff at such ugliness.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 10 May 2004 09:14 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee, how right wing and racist to you have to be to be thrown out of the knesset? What did Kahane say that was substantialy different than anything else we hear from Likud? Really, I want to know?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 10 May 2004 09:54 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There you go again Mishabee, trying to close down critism of Israel by invoking the "special and exclusive" status of Nazism or the Holocaust.

I have'nt compared Israel to the Nazi's, at least not in the way you try to spin it.

You are an extremist, you take all comparisons to the Nazi's as though someone were saying that Israel was using gas chambers, and marching Arab men women and children off to the ovens . . .but as usual, you ignore that the Nazis were not created in the morning and had already killed 6 million Jews by the afternoon . . . no, they built up to that point, and it's not the Nazi's at the hight of their evil that we need to watch out for (any idiot can see that an organization that has already gassed 6 million people is an evil organization.) It's the Nazis and their actions at the begining and during the build up to their ultimate evilness that we have to watch for . . and the truth is that there are valid comparisons to be made with Israel and the early Nazis.

People who claim to be Jewish and invoke the Holocaust to shut down critism of israel and their gross violation of the right sof Palestinians and their supporters, are the real "self-hating Jews" . . . You Mishabe and your likes, are the ones that are turning the world against your country. You and your likes are the ones that in the end will wind up doing the damage to Israel that you claim others want to inflict . . . you and your likes are the real anti-Semites, pretending that you are defending Israel, Zionism, and the Jews, but all the while doing everything you can to provoke hate towards those same groups.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 May 2004 10:37 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No Yards, that's over the top. If we don't allow Mishei and crowd to call babblers anti-semites or self-hating Jews, then you can't either.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Udo
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posted 10 May 2004 11:24 AM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
No Yards, that's over the top. If we don't allow Mishei and crowd to call babblers anti-semites or self-hating Jews, then you can't either.
Clearly you can and you have.

While I agree with your admonition a warning that such behaviour in the future might lead to banishment I note was missing. Others for equal offence have been warned that they would be banned. Just an interesting observation.

Further, for No Yards to label anyone who defends Israel from being smeared with the poisoned language of being a nazi is just an example of what many of us have said from the beginning...that using demonizing, poisoned words to paint Israel as the ugly racist monster is by extention demonizing Israelis. And on this board Israelis are de facto Jews. Well you get the picture.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 May 2004 11:29 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've got news for you, Udo. Mishei got away with it time after time after time with only a warning here and there. The kind of admonishment I just gave No Yards here is one that I gave Mishei many times without a "warning" attached.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Udo
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posted 10 May 2004 01:43 PM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I've got news for you, Udo. Mishei got away with it time after time after time with only a warning here and there. The kind of admonishment I just gave No Yards here is one that I gave Mishei many times without a "warning" attached.
I dont know what you mean but I will not pursue it.
My only hope is that you will closely monitor the poisoned atmosphere some here try to mould against israel and Israelis by the utilization of drive-by nazi smears.

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 10 May 2004 01:55 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Anyone who believes such tripe has no understanding of history. You cannot just say that there is the odd thing Israel does that is nazi-like.

I didn't say Sharon's government was the Third Riech, but I do believe that Isreal could end up becoming a honest to god Jack boots and gistapo style dictatorship. If you ignore the possibility,then you cannot gaurd against it, and ben-gurion's dream of a socalistic Jewish state will vanish.


quote:
Once you invoke the image you immediatley demonize.

My intent was not to demonize. I only wish to warn.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 10 May 2004 02:00 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
No Yards, that's over the top. If we don't allow Mishei and crowd to call babblers anti-semites or self-hating Jews, then you can't either.

Fair enough, as I do not really think that they are actually anti-Semites, or self hating . . . but I do really believe that what they are doing (accusing anyone that recognizes similarities between modren Israel and early WWII Germany as being anti-Semitic) has the same or greater negative effect for Israel than any real anti-Semite or Nazi could ever have in this day and age!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Udo
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posted 10 May 2004 02:08 PM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:

Fair enough, as I do not really think that they are actually anti-Semites, or self hating . . . but I do really believe that what they are doing (accusing anyone that recognizes similarities between modren Israel and early WWII Germany as being anti-Semitic) has the same or greater negative effect for Israel than any real anti-Semite or Nazi could ever have in this day and age!


He says "fair enough" then says he didnt really mean it...then he repeats the odious claim all over again.

Now I get it...you can get away with whatever you want on Babble as long as you say "fair enough" then pretend to explain by repeating the calumny.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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Babbler # 4881

posted 10 May 2004 02:13 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Reading is obviously not one of your strong suits, Udo­. I thought you might understand his point, seeing as it is what you and and your ideological fellow-travellers say about the 'useful idiots'.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Udo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5144

posted 10 May 2004 02:15 PM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Reading is obviously not one of your strong suits, Udo­. I thought you might understand his point, seeing as it is what you and and your ideological fellow-travellers say about the 'useful idiots'.

While English is my second language I have learned to read it quite well thank you.

[ 16 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 10 May 2004 02:44 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Udo, Macabee, No Yards, CMOT, this is back to the usual sterile stuff. You said . . . no you said . . . blah blah blah. And this time I have to say No Yards triggered it.
But Udo, Macabee, I'd be very interested in your opinions about what those politicians said. They were clearly racist, as I'm sure you would agree. But beyond that, they seemed to have some key characteristics. They were scapegoating, for one thing; it was the sort of language that says "these people are the source of all troubles". They were dehumanizing; the suggestion--heck, the flat-out statement--was that just being a Muslim or an Arab made someone a subhuman, murdering devil. They would seem to make killing members of those groups OK. It was, to my mind, the kind of language you use of people you favour rounding up and getting rid of. This makes a general comparison to the ways politicians wishing to scapegoat, ethnically cleanse, and/or commit genocide on a group talk.
But beyond that, there are specific similarities with specifically Nazi talk.
"It's imprinted in their blood"
"You can't believe an Arab, even one who's 40 years in his grave."

This very specifically echoes Nazi talk of Jewish blood and Jewish untrustworthiness. I'm sure if the science had been available, the Nazis would have raved about genetics too. If people talk like this, it is very difficult to discuss their rhetoric seriously without bringing up the anti-Jewish rhetoric of Nazism. Both the content and the style seem nearly identical.
I don't see how this can be characterized as jerking the knee. Udo, Macabee, do you see any ways in which the discourse of these politicians is *different* from the anti-Jewish discourse of Nazism?

When prominent Israeli government politicians talk like this and are not censured it is certainly a frightening thing. It doesn't mean that the Likud government is Nazi or even totalitarian in nature. But it is a worrying sign when even racist talk this obscene is not reined in.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 10 May 2004 03:09 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Udo:
He says "fair enough" then says he didnt really mean it...then he repeats the odious claim all over again.

Now I get it...you can get away with whatever you want on Babble as long as you say "fair enough" then pretend to explain by repeating the calumny.


No, I did no such thing . . . Michelle pointed out rightly that name calling is out of bounds . . . pointing out the results of ones actions is not name calling . . if you don't believe that you and Mishabee use Nazism and the Holocaust as a tool to close down discourse on the policies of Israel, or if you don't believe that doing so harms Israel, then by all means, present your argument . . . but if you are simply going to continue accusing others of "odious claims" without making specific the claim, or why it is deserving of hatred, then I submit it is you that is spreading the "calumny"!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Udo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5144

posted 10 May 2004 06:01 PM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Many of you sadly just don't have the sensitivity it seems to understand how poison works.

Demonizing Israel by comparing it to the most evil of evils, nazism, creeps slowly through the body politic. It gives license to Jew haters to express their hatred vigorously. Is it any wonder that Toronto has been the scene of anti-semitic vandalism with touches of nazism?

Yes I know you will deny any connection but can there be any other conclusion to the spate of anti-semitism world wide? Can you not see past your "hate-Israel" tinted glasses the damage caused by casually in converstaion, on chat boards using the most vile of language reserved only for Israel? Can you not see the potential harm this can cause when it becomes a mantra over and over...Israelis(Jews) are Nazis,Israelis (jews) are nazis Israelis (Jews) are nazis...?

Remember for thousands of years Jews purportedly embodied all the evil in the world; they were diabolical, inhuman. Today Israel faces the same demonization comparisions to the nazis.

Today we even had the spectre of the French comedian Dieudonne appearing on French national television dressed as an orthodox Jew proclaiming with a Hitler salute "Hell Israel".
Today Jews are threatened and beaten up on the streets of France, Belgium and Italy.

Today it seems hatred is directed at the Jewish state. Israel is humiliated at the UN. Can you imagine accepting Libya and Syria as honest brokers to sit at the UN Human Rights Committee but barring Israel from such a committee. What hypocricy!

Today the Magen Dovid Adom, Israel's world renowned humanitarian aid agency, is excluded from the international Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent societies, why would that be I wonder?

Today within the international academic community there are frequent appeals to boycott Israeli researchers and students-due to their country's "human rights violations"-but not those from countries such as Saudi Arabia (where women and minorities have no rights whatsoever) or Egypt where human rights activists are imprisoned, or the PA where gays and lesbians are assaulted and killed.

This all emenates from the poison spread world wide wrongly and discriminatorily agaist Israel. It has one ultimate aim and that is to rid the world of the Jewish state.

In the words of Martin Luther King the denial or attack on the Jewish people's right to a state is

quote:
the denial of the same right , the right to self-determination, which we grant to African nations, and all other nations of the world. In short, this is anti-Semitism
.

Stop the poison. Don't stop legitimate criticism of Israeli policy but do so with civility . Evoking "the nazi" image against Irael/Israelis/Jews is today's poison. It is wrong, mean-spirited and will (whether you like it or not) fuel hatred against Jews. Find better ways to express your political criticisms without resorting to this vile fule.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 10 May 2004 06:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Udo, all people of good will everywhere have now, as they have had for the last sixty years, a moral responsibility to keep remembering, to keep learning about, the true horror of what the Nazis did, in Germany and throughout occupied Europe, to keep debating it, to keep figuring out how it applies to every instance of criminal denial of humanity to others wherever that may occur.

I pity you deeply. You have somehow convinced yourself that "sensitivity" to the way that poison is spread applies only to poison spread against people like you, people who share your political beliefs, people you could like.

I will desist from mentioning people who also go to pizza parlours. Well, no, I won't, because I think that your argument is, at least in part, the argument of a North American snob, or at least someone who thinks that North Americans will be more moved by the torment of people who look and live like them.

"Crimes against humanity": Udo, that category was not invented for any single, predictable group of human beings. In your last post, your presumption that it was is showing, and I pity you for that. The people you accuse of lacking "sensitivity" have been arguing only that we are allowed to draw broader and more humane conclusions from history than you have. That is all. And you can't see it.

How very, very sad. For you.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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Babbler # 4169

posted 10 May 2004 06:51 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not sure I'm following what you (Udo) are trying to say here . . . it seems that you are saying that we shouldn't critize Israel, because that leads to encouraging people who only want to demonize Israel and Jews, which leads to actual Nazi style anti-Semitism.

So therefore, you are accusing us of enabling anti-Semitism (at best.)

All the while, you ignore your own, nuch more direct and obvious contribution to anti-Semitism; supporting the war crimes against the Palestinians.

I also have to wonder, if following your logic, does the critising of PLO policies not also encourage the demonizing of Plaestinians, which also in turn leads to actual Nazi anti-Semitic style violence against Palestinians?

Or does crimes against humanity only apply to the "real humans"!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 10 May 2004 08:49 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rufus Polson explicitly drew the conclusion that I chose not to draw out, preferring to let people draw their own conclusions as to the nature of the phrases spoken by those Government ministers.

Incidentally, I can't tell what offends Macabee more: The comparison showing that IDF troops are behaving in ways comparable to those in efficient (and brutal) totalitarian regimes, or that IDF troops act like incompetent thugs dancing to the tune of the latest penny-ante dictator in a banana republic who has an exaggerated sense of his own importance.

quote:
Originally posted by Udo:
He says "fair enough" then says he didnt really mean it...then he repeats the odious claim all over again.

Now I get it...you can get away with whatever you want on Babble as long as you say "fair enough" then pretend to explain by repeating the calumny.


Like you haven't pulled the same thing yourself.

[ 10 May 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 10 May 2004 09:24 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Udo, Macabee, No Yards, CMOT, this is back to the usual sterile stuff. You said . . . no you said . . . blah blah blah.

Sorry Rufus, I guess I was just caught up in the moment. The worst part is, I promised myself that I wouldn't get involved in the kind of the kind of juvenile posturing promoted by No Yards and Udo.

[ 10 May 2004: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 11 May 2004 12:20 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Udo, all people of good will everywhere have now, as they have had for the last sixty years, a moral responsibility to keep remembering, to keep learning about, the true horror of what the Nazis did, in Germany and throughout occupied Europe, to keep debating it, to keep figuring out how it applies to every instance of criminal denial of humanity to others wherever that may occur.

I pity you deeply. You have somehow convinced yourself that "sensitivity" to the way that poison is spread applies only to poison spread against people like you, people who share your political beliefs, people you could like.

I will desist from mentioning people who also go to pizza parlours. Well, no, I won't, because I think that your argument is, at least in part, the argument of a North American snob, or at least someone who thinks that North Americans will be more moved by the torment of people who look and live like them.

"Crimes against humanity": Udo, that category was not invented for any single, predictable group of human beings. In your last post, your presumption that it was is showing, and I pity you for that. The people you accuse of lacking "sensitivity" have been arguing only that we are allowed to draw broader and more humane conclusions from history than you have. That is all. And you can't see it.

How very, very sad. For you.


Udo's admonition is pretty clear. He sounds a warning bell against abusing language to be critical of Israel. It seems rather simple. If you disapprove of Sharon's policy then say so. The ocuupation stinks...the Occupation denigrates Israeli democratic ideals...nothing wrong with that.

But those of you who must call the IDF or Israel nazis in order to make your point are going over the top and engaging in anti-Semitic rhetoric. Skdadl, your points are good ones, that you cannot see Udo's point however is what is really sad.



From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 11 May 2004 01:15 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I love the way you two tag-team each other like a wrestling match.

quote:
As spake by Macabee:
But those of you who must call the IDF or Israel nazis in order to make your point are going over the top and engaging in anti-Semitic rhetoric. Skdadl, your points are good ones, that you cannot see Udo's point however is what is really sad.

I have never directly said so. I have always said I have seen parallels, but that the line between the two has not yet blurred (and for you sake I hope it never does), and so there is still reason to believe that the IDF and the Israeli Government can change their ultimately self-destructive path.

I notice you haven't said anything about expulsion of the current gang of idiots in the Israeli Government for racist remarks even though the Kach movement was kicked out of the Knesset, presumably for similarly monumental heights of idiocy.

[ 11 May 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 11 May 2004 05:18 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One really has to wonder when a minister in cabinet can rant about 'ethnic purity' one day and not be out of a job the next. It is very Nazi-like.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 11 May 2004 07:38 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh look. This thread is so long. Time to close it!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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