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Author Topic: Hamas leader Rantisi killed
DavidB-D
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posted 17 April 2004 03:07 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Haaretz report
From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 17 April 2004 03:33 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, that's just fucking great.

I guess this is Sharon's way of celebrating the spectacular blowjob he just got from Bush.

Or maybe he's trying to guarantee that the inevitable Hamas response will be particularly savage. (Remember, the forty-day mourning period after Yassin's murder hasn't expired yet.)

Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 17 April 2004 04:06 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well at least Rantisi sounded like a pretty nasty person.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 April 2004 04:17 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, well then ... I mean, he was probably the only nasty man left on either side anyway. And even if he wasn't, that's a great excuse for inflaming passions all over the region.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 17 April 2004 04:19 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course he was nasty. That's not the point. This idiocy can only have the effect of strengthening extremists like Rantisi and providing them with more recruits. I don't even want to speculate what Hamas will do now. (Mark your calendars for early May. That's when the mourning period expires.)

More violence, of course, is exactly what Sharon wants. His career is based on nothing else, and he now has the explicit blessing of the Chimperor to completely abandon even the pretense of negotiations and just keep pounding away with impunity.

I wonder how this will affect events in Iraq?


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
spindoctor
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posted 17 April 2004 04:38 PM      Profile for spindoctor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I wonder how this will affect events in Iraq?


It seems to me that the United States wants and is provoking a war with the entire Islamic world, with Israel doing what it can to help out.

I'm just thinking about Orwell's novel 1984 and the idea of permanent war. Quite frightening really.


From: Kingston, Jamaica.....oh alright....Kingston, Ontario | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 April 2004 05:19 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't believe it.

Why don't these bastards save us the anxiety and just drop the bomb now and get it over with?

[ 17 April 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
praenomen3
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posted 17 April 2004 05:20 PM      Profile for praenomen3        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by beluga2:
...I guess this is Sharon's way of celebrating the spectacular blowjob he just got from Bush...

"Got"?


From: x | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 17 April 2004 05:55 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Murder, Inc. strikes again.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 17 April 2004 06:10 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
Murder, Inc. strikes again.
Well then that would make Rantisi and his pals what...Mass Murder Inc?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 17 April 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Well, in the pissing war of who's eviler, let's compare Israeli and Palestinian deaths in the last few years. Oh, right...
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 17 April 2004 06:23 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Well, in the pissing war of who's eviler, let's compare Israeli and Palestinian deaths in the last few years. Oh, right...
Better to compare the circumstances, the number of women and children killed while on buses and in pizza joints,.

How many Israelis have gone anywhere in the PA with suicide belys tied to their bodies walked into a local cafe filled with families and murdered them? Name one since the beginning of this latest intifada then we have a basis to compare.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 17 April 2004 06:33 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
...and? Are we closer to a lasting peace with that?
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 April 2004 06:34 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, Macabee -- when will it be enough? How can anyone rejoice any longer in anyone's blood ... or piss, for that matter?

This threatens every baby everywhere, every joyful young couple everywhere, every shuffling elder everywhere. Too many have died. Too many.

The people of despair cannot solve this crisis alone. If there is a short-term solution, it must come from the people who have some power, and that for sure ain't the Palestinians.

The long-term solution is to challenge conventional notions of power. But we have to save lives -- for pity's sake, we have to save the planet -- before that is likely to happen.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Richard MacKinnon
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posted 17 April 2004 06:34 PM      Profile for Richard MacKinnon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz said Israel intended to kill the entire Hamas leadership.

Reminds me of the scene in Gandhi where the protestors walk toward the factory gates and the police knock them down with staves. Except in the case it's missiles which take out a few collateral people as well.

If any other country (other than the US) was doing this we'd so cut off diplomatic ties.


From: Home of the Red Hill Concrete Expressway | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 17 April 2004 06:34 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Well then that would make Rantisi and his pals what...Mass Murder Inc?


No, they can't even hold a candle to Sharon. He's been killing Palestinians for over 50 years.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 17 April 2004 06:36 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Oh, Macabee -- when will it be enough? How can anyone rejoice any longer in anyone's blood ... or piss, for that matter?

This threatens every baby everywhere, every joyful young couple everywhere, every shuffling elder everywhere. Too many have died. Too many.

The people of despair cannot solve this crisis alone. If there is a short-term solution, it must come from the people who have some power, and that for sure ain't the Palestinians.

The long-term solution is to challenge conventional notions of power. But we have to save lives -- for pity's sake, we have to save the planet -- before that is likely to happen.


Yes on this I agree wholeheartedly.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 17 April 2004 06:37 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Richard MacKinnon:

Reminds me of the scene in Gandhi where the protestors walk toward the factory gates and the police knock them down with staves. Except in the case it's missiles which take out a few collateral people as well.

If any other country (other than the US) was doing this we'd so cut off diplomatic ties.


It pretty off-the-wall to compare a pacifist like Ghandi with a cold blooded murderer like Rantisi. Pretty shameful too.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 17 April 2004 06:39 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Yes, and it's pretty shameful to only want to score debating points. Good one, Macabee.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 April 2004 06:41 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then, for pity's sake, Macabee, stop doing PR for one side only, for either side, and turn in the other direction. There is always only one direction for moral protest, and that is UP, at those who have power.

You have access to power: make them stop. Make it clear to them: the overwhelming mass of humanity want them to STOP.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 17 April 2004 06:42 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:


No, they can't even hold a candle to Sharon. He's been killing Palestinians for over 50 years.



oh i dont know a bon fire would be a more apt analogy...Perhaps if Arafat had the guts to have accepted the offer of a Palestinian state as imperfect as that offer may have been, today with proper negotiations between legitimate states we would be in a different place.

Time and again the Palestinian people have been betrayed by their leadership. And sadly this has led to the Israelis looking for a hard answer against terrorism hence Sharon. Stupid mistakes all the way around has led to where we are today...and its a tragedy for both sides specifically the innocent people caught in the middle.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 17 April 2004 06:43 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon 50 years ago:


"In August of 1953 Sharon, commanded the notorious 101 unit of IDF terrorists, in an attack on the refugee camp of El-Bureig, south of Gaza, where (according to an Israeli history of the 101 unit) 50 refugees were massacred. Other sources allege about 20.

In October of 1953, Sharon commanded the notorious 101 unit of IDF terrorists, in an attack on the Jordanian village of Qibya. Israeli historian Avi Shlaim describes the massacre thus: "Sharon's orders were to penetrate Qibya, blow up houses and inflict heavy casualties on its inhabitants. The village had been reduced to rubble: forty-five houses had been blown up, and sixty-nine civilians, two thirds of them women and children, had been killed".

Israel's foreign minister at the time, Moshe Sharett said "this stain (Qibya) will stick to us and will not be washed away for many years to come".

Between Feb. 28, 1955 and Oct. 10, 1956, Sharon led a paratrooper brigade in similar cross-border invasions of Gaza, Egypt, and the West Bank, Jordan. In the West Bank village of Qalqilya, Sharon's death squad killed 83 people."

http://guardian.911review.org/Palestine/sharon.htm


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 17 April 2004 06:46 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You have access to power: make them stop. Make it clear to them: the overwhelming mass of humanity want them to STOP.

My guess? Macabee will never address this point.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 17 April 2004 07:02 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just wish that the Palestinians would stop retaliating by attacking secular civilian targets in Israel. If only they could retaliate by killing some of those freaky fanatical rabbis with Brooklyn accents that are leading the settler movement in Israel, then at least they would be ridding of the world of some equaly bad people.

I can't help it. i just hate religious freaks. Everytime Israel kills Hamas leaders, my reaction - good one less rightwing religious freak. If only the Palestinians would do their part and rid the world of rightwing religious freaks on the Israeli side.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 17 April 2004 07:08 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I just wish that the Palestinians would stop retaliating by attacking secular civilian targets in Israel. If only they could retaliate by killing some of those freaky fanatical rabbis with Brooklyn accents that are leading the settler movement in Israel, then at least they would be ridding of the world of some equaly bad people.

I can't help it. i just hate religious freaks. Everytime Israel kills Hamas leaders, my reaction - good one less rightwing religious freak. If only the Palestinians would do their part and rid the world of rightwing religious freaks on the Israeli side.


As bad as those "freaky rabbis" may be, they have never arranged for suicide bombers to murder innocent people,. This is getting pretty strange.

[ 17 April 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 April 2004 07:10 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So do you want to kill me, Stockholm?

Here's my neck. Have a go.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 April 2004 07:11 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
After completing his high school and brothers. After completing his high school studies, he went on to study medicine in Egypt

Rantisi returned to the Gaza Strip during the 1970s and worked as a pediatrician at the Naser Hospital in Khan Yunis.

The IDF first arrested Rantisi in 1983, for attempting to organize a boycott of tax payments to the Israeli civil administration authorities. He was arrested a second time in 1988, and was jailed for two and a half years for his involvement in Hamas.


He started as a healer. Then he organized peaceful protests, and was jailed for doing so by the occupier. No doubt he was further radicalized while in prison with Hamas members.

I don't expect MacAbee or the other trained seals to try to think this through.

What the murder of Sheikh Yassin and this latest murder have done is legitimize terrorism. Anyone is now a legitimate target: Ariel Sharon, Dore Gold (Rantisi's Zionist counterpart on CBC TV interviews), George Bush...and Laura Bush, for that matter.

These murders, when considered along with the illegal US invasion of Iraq, have demostrated that there are no rules. Is there a "clash of civilizations" taking place? That's hard to say, but there is a war against the values of the civilized world, of which this latest murder is another assault.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 17 April 2004 07:15 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Better to compare the circumstances, the number of women and children killed while on buses and in pizza joints,.

Better to compare the circumstances, who's occupying, robbing and humiliating whom.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 17 April 2004 07:16 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Another look at Rantisi

CNN

quote:
TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) -- Abdel Aziz Rantisi, the Hamas leader assassinated in an Israeli air strike Saturday, was one of the highest profile and most extreme voices of the violent Islamic group....

Rantisi rejected any accommodation with Israel, following strict Hamas ideology that called for destruction of the Jewish state in the Middle East.

Recovering at Gaza's Shifa Hospital, Rantisi vowed Hamas would crush Israel: "I swear we will not leave one Jew in Palestine."


What a peaceful soul.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 April 2004 07:19 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, shit. How's about quoting Leonard Cohen if we're into comparisons?

"Let us compare mythologies."

Let us stop rationalizing all the blood ... and all the piss.

Who has the power matters, and the greater responsibility is there. But we don't have to go on making ourselves callous to death anywhere.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 17 April 2004 07:20 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
As bad as those "freaky rabbis" may be, they have never arranged for suicide bombers to murder innocent people,. This is getting pretty strange.

No, they just go down with guns and murder nearby innocent people trying to harvest in their own fields. But apparently it's much more moral because they don't kill *themselves* in the process. Yeah, this is getting strange all right.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 17 April 2004 07:22 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So do you want to kill me, Stockholm?
Here's my neck. Have a go.


Depends on whether you are a rightwing religious freak.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 17 April 2004 07:23 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:

No, they just go down with guns and murder nearby innocent people trying to harvest in their own fields. But apparently it's much more moral because they don't kill *themselves* in the process. Yeah, this is getting strange all right.


Rufus please for the record name one ordained Rabbi, freaky or otherwise, that has done such a thing.

I dont deny that some e Jewish extremists (possibly even terrorists) have done such a thing but I have yet to hear that a "freaky Brooklyn Rabbi" was involved. Facts man facts.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 17 April 2004 07:24 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by skdadl:
[QB]Oh, shit. How's about quoting Leonard Cohen if we're into comparisons?

"Let us compare mythologies."

Skadal apparantly this was a direct quote from Rantisi. Its important to have some perspective no?


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 17 April 2004 07:28 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Keep up with the one-line sound-bites, Macabee. The world is getting more peaceful by the minute because of it.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 17 April 2004 07:32 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Depends on whether you are a rightwing religious freak.


Stockholm, darling, I am a socialist "religious freak," if that helps you at all in deciding whether or not to slit my throat.

I am also a living human being, although I am more and more aware of how contingent and provisional that claim becomes.

Cheers, brother.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 17 April 2004 07:41 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm how come macabee hasnt commented on the articles discussing Sharons participation (leadership really) in massacres against arabs in 1953?>
From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 17 April 2004 07:42 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
Hmm how come macabee hasnt commented on the articles discussing Sharons participation (leadership really) in massacres against arabs in 1953?>
I have absolutely no love for Sharon so what the hell do you want from me?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 17 April 2004 07:43 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl, are you a religious fundamentalist? If not, then forget Stockholm's broadsides.

My two-word response to this latest execution: "Oh, crap."


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 17 April 2004 07:53 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jack Straw condemns assassination

I guess Bush'll be standing alone again in cheering on this madness.

This part sure bodes well:

quote:
A previous attempt on Rantisi’s life prompted a suicide bombing that killed 16 Israelis.

From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 17 April 2004 07:54 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:

I dont deny that some e Jewish extremists (possibly even terrorists) have done such a thing but I have yet to hear that a "freaky Brooklyn Rabbi" was involved. Facts man facts.

We may be talking past each other. I had taken Stockholm's description as a derogatory generalization about settlers, and so I was discussing settlers as a group. If you want to talk about just their rabbis, then no, I don't know of any posses of Rabbis. But then, I don't know of any lynch mobs of Mullahs either.

Meanwhile, I noticed something odd in a quotation earlier in the thread.

quote:
The IDF first arrested Rantisi in 1983, for attempting to organize a boycott of tax payments to the Israeli civil administration authorities.

Does this mean that Israel COLLECTS TAXES from Palestinians in the Occupied Territories? They have to pay for the privilege of being obstructed, detained, tortured, shot at, having their homes demolished, their water and land stolen, their government buildings and schools and police stations and hospitals blown up etc. etc. etc.?!?!?!?
Talk about your taxation without representation. How can Israel justify them not getting the vote, not considering them part of the country etc. etc. if they're making them pay taxes?!

From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Richard MacKinnon
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posted 17 April 2004 08:36 PM      Profile for Richard MacKinnon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It pretty off-the-wall to compare a pacifist like Ghandi with a cold blooded murderer like Rantisi.

I thought I was comparing the British and the Israelis. Having a bit of English ancestry is all the shame I'm admitting to today.

And talking about taxes. Canadians' donations to Israel are tax-deductable and some of those tax breaks helped pay for these assassinations.


From: Home of the Red Hill Concrete Expressway | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 17 April 2004 08:54 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Talk about taxation without representation....

And say, didn't the USA have a little revolution partly precipitated by this gnawing problem of being taxed with no say in what happens to the money?

Of course, given the rampant hypocrisy seen in Dubya Bush's daily words and activities it is no surprise to me that the US now sits in the same position as Great Britain once did - siding with the powerful and rich instead of the poor and downtrodden.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 17 April 2004 09:01 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Then, for pity's sake, Macabee, stop doing PR for one side only, for either side, and turn in the other direction. There is always only one direction for moral protest, and that is UP, at those who have power.

You have access to power: make them stop. Make it clear to them: the overwhelming mass of humanity want them to STOP.


I don't attempt to advise Macabee on matters relating to anti-semitism, because I do not feel qualified: I lost no relatives or community members to the Holocaust. So I bite my tongue a lot.

But I do have a thought about Macabee and Israel. He has no use for Sharon, and I believe him. And he has no responsibility for Sharon either, not being an Israeli citizen.

But he does, I submit, have a responsiblity, as a member of the human family living in Canada with a certain degree of access to power, to respond to Skdadl's post above.

I may be wrong. If so, perhaps Macabee will explain.


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 17 April 2004 09:59 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Getting back to the original topic. I totally object to either side wantonly practising frontier justice and arbitrary killing leaders. I'm sure Rantisi is a blood thirsty thug, but I also believe in due process and not some military commander being judge jury and executioner.

I would have preferred to see Israeli troops simply arrest the guy and put him on trial for murder and bring forth evidence that he personally incited and ordered terrorist attacks etc...Then let a judge and jury find him guilt and send him to jail.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 17 April 2004 11:29 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By this time next year, after Bush is re-appointed, the explulsions will have started. And people like Macabee will say that it is justified because they are all terrorists.
From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
dark_blue
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posted 18 April 2004 12:22 AM      Profile for dark_blue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nobody seems to be happy that a man who orders suicide bombings on inocent people is gone.
From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 18 April 2004 12:41 AM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have absolutely no love for Sharon so what the hell do you want from me?

We want you to criticize him, condemn him, make it clear here and in your community that you don't support him.

It's quite similar to the situation when recent acts of anti-semitism occured in Toronto and Montreal. Even though everyone knows that Miller, Martin, Charest, McGuinty, Tremblay, Layton, etc... are all against anti-semitism, they knew it was important to make public statements to add their voices in support of the Jewsih community.

Israel supporters in Canada who don't support Sharon must speak out to make it clear that one can be pro-Israel without being pro-Sharon. Right now no one is doing that, and as a consequence, Israel supporters are losing a lot of public support.

And Macabee let it be noted that I, along with skdadl, Hinterland and Wilfred, would like you to address this point:

quote:
You have access to power: make them stop. Make it clear to them: the overwhelming mass of humanity want them to STOP.

[ 18 April 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 18 April 2004 01:24 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's part of the aftermath:

Death set to ignite tinderbox in Iraq

quote:
Iraq was last night poised on the edge of a full-scale religious uprising as the assassination of Hamas leader Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi fed oxygen to the tinderbox siege of the holy cities of Najaf and Falujah.

Hundreds of foreign fighters, including Palestinians, have already poured into Iraq, the new front line in the battle against the “infidels”, making the peaceful resolution of the siege of the Shiite holy city of Najaf a near impossibility.

Just as crowds of Hamas supporters gathered outside Gaza City’s Shifa hospital vowing revenge after the killing, so too would the foreign fighters within the walls of Najaf stiffen their resolve against what will be seen as the latest attack on the Arab world.

Last night supporters of the wanted Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr said talks with the US troops encircling the holy city of Najaf had collapsed and that an attack was imminent.



From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 18 April 2004 01:44 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by dark_blue:
Nobody seems to be happy that a man who orders suicide bombings on inocent people is gone.

No, we're not happy, as his death will lead to more suicide bombings and more innocent people dead. Haven't you figured that out yet? Or do you just believe that bad people should be killed at the first opportunity, as a point of abstract principle, with no regard whatsoever to the real-world consequences that follow?

I don't mourn Rantisi particularly, though I deplore his murder both for its illegality, its arbitrary nature, its reckless endangerment of innocent human life, and its inevitable effect in ratcheting up the bloody tit-for-tat cycle to an even higher level than before.

I kinda wonder where Israel is going with this. Are they going to wipe out the entire leadership of Hamas? And if so, who then? Maybe Arafat himself? I never thought even Sharon would be insane enough to do that, but now I'm not so sure.

Slim's link scares the hell out of me.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 18 April 2004 04:53 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
By this time next year, after Bush is re-appointed, the explulsions will have started. And people like Macabee will say that it is justified because they are all terrorists.

That long? I should think the intial phase -- the removal of those Arabs on the west side of the security 'fence' will begin much before that. Never before has Israel be offered such an opprotunity to step up its program of genocide. A Bush loss in the next election could make things much more difficult, so I think the process will beign sooner than nect year. This summer is likely, while the war in Iraq is still the focus.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 18 April 2004 08:15 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And talking about taxes. Canadians' donations to Israel are tax-deductable and some of those tax breaks helped pay for these assassinations.


Unless you can prove this staement it is a vile lie.

quote:
You have access to power: make them stop. Make it clear to them: the overwhelming mass of humanity want them to STOP.


"Access to power", ? about as much as anyone else here and less.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 18 April 2004 08:27 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are donations to Israel tax deductible? If so that is really sick, and should be stopped. Its one thing to donate toward political causes in Canada, it is another to make donations to a foreign country tax-deductible. What kind of donationa re we talking about and where do they go too?

Speaking of taxes. It is interesting that Palestinians pay taxes toward their own occupation. It is interesting that Rantisi began his career in politics by trying to organize a boycott against the occupation tax imposed by Israel. For this he was thrown in jail. He became radicalized from that point on, and joined Hamas

What is the line? "No Taxation without representation," isn't that it?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 18 April 2004 10:56 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Better to compare the circumstances, the number of women and children killed while on buses and in pizza joints.

Just a slight digression - I hate it when people say "women and children". Adult women are on the same comparison level as adult men, not children. While I can understand people considering the killing of children to be more heinous than the killing of adults, I get really tired of the infantilization of women in these arguments.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Uri_Eidel
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 18 April 2004 11:19 AM      Profile for Uri_Eidel        Edit/Delete Post
Israel kills Hamas leader, braces for bombings

Here's another report on the issue from the CBC. If Israel is 'bracing for bombings', isn't that an admission by Sharon that they are doing the very things that create more violence? They should probably start apologizing to the Israeli people who are going to suffer and die because of his latest bombing.


From: Ontario | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 18 April 2004 12:21 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Here's another report on the issue from the CBC. If Israel is 'bracing for bombings', isn't that an admission by Sharon that they are doing the very things that create more violence? They should probably start apologizing to the Israeli people who are going to suffer and die because of his latest bombing.


I suppose the argument would be (not that I agree with it) that it will be a matter of short term gain for long term gain. The same logic could be applied to the Palestinians. Every time that a suicide bomber commits an atrocity in Israel, it is 100% certain that Israel will retaliate. Does Hamas then owe the Palestinians an apology for provoking Israel to retaliate?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Richard MacKinnon
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posted 18 April 2004 12:25 PM      Profile for Richard MacKinnon   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Unless you can prove this staement it is a vile lie.

To receive tax deductible receipts in Canada make checks payable to B'nai Brith which is "committed to strengthening and supporting our brothers and sisters in Israel" some of which goes to Israel's National Insurance Agency, Bituach Leumi which provides reservists' benefits.

Also donations from Canada may enjoy tax exemption when earmarked for ESRA, and can be channeled via The New Israel Fund of Canada, which is a human rights group.

A quick search shows that Canadians are able to support hawks and doves in Israel and get tax breaks. Once the money is sent off-shore we'd be hard pressed to say exactly what purpose it's used for.


From: Home of the Red Hill Concrete Expressway | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 18 April 2004 12:29 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Once the money is sent off-shore we'd be hard pressed to say exactly what purpose it's used for.

This is of course the same argument some have used for shutting down Canadian branches of Muslim international charities.


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 18 April 2004 12:36 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Every time that a suicide bomber commits an atrocity in Israel, it is 100% certain that Israel will retaliate. Does Hamas then owe the Palestinians an apology for provoking Israel to retaliate?

Yes. In fact, I've always felt that way. It's the extremists on both sides who perpetuate the violence. However, lately it has been Sharon who tries to provoke violence whenever things have been quiet for too long. Furthermore, it is Israel that is the occupying force, and Israel that has all the weapons.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 18 April 2004 01:25 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just a slight digression - I hate it when people say "women and children". Adult women are on the same comparison level as adult men, not children. While I can understand people considering the killing of children to be more heinous than the killing of adults, I get really tired of the infantilization of women in these arguments.

And how come killing them with bombs is wrong while brutalizing, humilating them, shooting them and starving them, all in the name pf opressing them while stealing their land, food and water, is okay?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Big Willy
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Babbler # 5451

posted 18 April 2004 01:42 PM      Profile for Big Willy        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by beluga2:
[QB]
(Remember, the forty-day mourning period after Yassin's murder hasn't expired yet.)


Since the assassination of Yassin attempts of terrorist attacks have happened, we all remember that young manipulated kid who was stopped with a bunch of explosives.

The leaders of these terrorist organizations have no problem sending others to kill innocent Israelis while taking their own life, now their lives are at risk, they will be killed, now they must think about what they cause. It is a lot better to send others to do you dirty work, but now the leaders of these organizations will fell the punishment for their indefensible actions.


From: The West | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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Babbler # 4014

posted 18 April 2004 02:10 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I'm astounded by people who's sole contribution to this debate is a constant, steady denunciation of the evils of terrorism. Ok, enough already. We've heard you.

Edited: And what the hell am I doing? I *plonked* this issue yesterday. Oh, the embarrassment!

[ 18 April 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 18 April 2004 03:05 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
now their lives are at risk, they will be killed, now they must think about what they cause. It is a lot better to send others to do you dirty work, but now the leaders of these organizations will fell the punishment for their indefensible actions.

Actually, those "leaders" seem to be perfectly willing to die and become martyrs for their cause. Rantisi refused to go underground despite knowing full well that he was next in Israel's crosshairs.

Yassin: "The day in which I will die as a shahid [martyr] will be the happiest day of my life."

Rantisi: "It's death by killing or cancer. ... If it's cardiac arrest or an Apache (helicopter), I prefer to be killed by an Apache."

Threatening to kill people who long for martyrdom isn't exactly an effective pressure tactic. Nor is actually going ahead and doing it. In fact, killing them just strengthens their appeal. Ask the Bolivian military.

With these murders, Israel has created for itself not one but two Middle Eastern Che Gueveras.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Big Willy
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posted 18 April 2004 03:13 PM      Profile for Big Willy        Edit/Delete Post
If they want to die as martyrs why have we not seen a leader go and act as a suicide bomber?
From: The West | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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Babbler # 4572

posted 18 April 2004 03:22 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hamas has just shot down beluga2's argument.
quote:
The Hamas leadership has already appointed a new chief to replace Rantisi, but has however decided to keep the name of its new leader a secret, fearing Israel will also target him.

(Haaretz article)

From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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Babbler # 44

posted 18 April 2004 03:28 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fair punishment would be to lock them away, letting them out only every so often to perform services for the people they've harmed. All Israel is doing is generating an oversupply of martyrs and of people willing to become them. It's just plain counterproductive.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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Babbler # 3138

posted 18 April 2004 03:37 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yassin: "The day in which I will die as a shahid [martyr] will be the happiest day of my life."


So, the man got what he wanted, so why is anyone complaining?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 18 April 2004 04:10 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, the man got what he wanted, so why is anyone complaining?
I agree he got what he wanted and there should be no complaints.

But, of course, what he meant was his death would make him a martyr and be the inspiration for hundreds of suicide bombers. So I assume you will be remain self-satisfied and will not whisper a word of complaint when they begin detonating themselves among Israele soldiers and civilians.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 18 April 2004 05:38 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
"Access to power", ? about as much as anyone else here and less.

Which raises a sad thought. If no one in Shamir's office is listening, and Hamas surely won't take our advice either, is there nothing we can do? If so, we should close this thread and do something constructive. Is this Macabee's counsel of despair?

It reminds me of the cynical old rhyme:

The Jews hate the Arabs
The Arabs hate the Jews
But I am a Christian
And hate whom I choose.

Is that all there is?


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 18 April 2004 08:59 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Richard MacKinnon:

To receive tax deductible receipts in Canada make checks payable to B'nai Brith which is "committed to strengthening and supporting our brothers and sisters in Israel" some of which goes to Israel's National Insurance Agency, Bituach Leumi which provides reservists' benefits.

Also donations from Canada may enjoy tax exemption when earmarked for ESRA, and can be channeled via The New Israel Fund of Canada, which is a human rights group.

A quick search shows that Canadians are able to support hawks and doves in Israel and get tax breaks. Once the money is sent off-shore we'd be hard pressed to say exactly what purpose it's used for.


Your word that this money goes where you say is simply not enough. Where do you get this information. According to Canadian laws no tax deductable donation can go beyond the Green Line or for any military purpose.

Please, again, provide proof that Bnai Brith is breaking Canadian law before you make criminal accusations. Surely making false criminal accusations are against babble policy?

[ 18 April 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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Babbler # 4169

posted 18 April 2004 09:09 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Once the money is sent off-shore we'd be hard pressed to say exactly what purpose it's used for.

Crimanal accusation?

Isn't falsey accusing someone of making criminal accusations also against Babble policy?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 18 April 2004 09:38 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Y'know, if we had controls over capital flows this discussion wouldn't even be taking place, because such controls allow for the tracing of monies sent abroad, thereby making money laundering or illegal use of monies impossible or nearly so.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 April 2004 12:15 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Your word that this money goes where you say is simply not enough. Where do you get this information. According to Canadian laws no tax deductable donation can go beyond the Green Line or for any military purpose.

Right so money that is earmarked for the charitable work of Hamas does not support the organization as a whole. I get it!


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 19 April 2004 12:15 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:

Crimanal accusation?

Isn't falsey accusing someone of making criminal accusations also against Babble policy?



I repeat, tax deductable contributions to Israel cannot be used for any purpose beyond the green line. The money, every cent, must be accounted for. If anyone is suggesting that Bnai Brith or any other jewish group that gives such receipts are using the money beyond the green line they are making a criminal accusation. That happens to be a fact. Are facts now against babble policy?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 19 April 2004 06:42 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If the standard fits...

quote:
I repeat, tax deductable contributions to Israel cannot be used for any purpose beyond the green line. The money, every cent, must be accounted for.

Please provide proof of this, or are we supposed to just take your word for it when you attack others for making unsupported statements?


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1962

posted 19 April 2004 07:02 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, and while I'm here..

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Well, in the pissing war of who's eviler, let's compare Israeli and Palestinian deaths in the last few years. Oh, right...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Better to compare the circumstances, the number of women and children killed while on buses and in pizza joints,.


Okay, let's do that: Some figures on deaths of children.

So, 545 Palestinian children killed by Israelis, about 100 Israeli children killed by Palestinians.

Some weasel-words:

quote:
"We are a democratic state, our government would be toppled if it was proven that our defence forces had indulged in targeting Palestinian civilians and children," she says.

"This sort of thing just doesn't happen in Israel."



Oh, butbutbut, it's happening in the Occupied Territories, so I guess Dotan's off the hook. Phew! That was a close one!

Let's have some math fun:

quote:
"If we hadn't killed those Palestinian children, then the terrorist would have killed three or four times as many Israelis."

Right, so 4 times 100ish is 400ish, heeeyyy, wait a minute, that's still LESS THAN THE NUMBER OF PALESTINIAN CHILDREN KILLED SO FAR.

But I guess you're okay with that, right?


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 April 2004 07:54 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
I repeat, tax deductable contributions to Israel cannot be used for any purpose beyond the green line. The money, every cent, must be accounted for. If anyone is suggesting that Bnai Brith or any other jewish group that gives such receipts are using the money beyond the green line they are making a criminal accusation. That happens to be a fact. Are facts now against babble policy?

As much as it pains me to agree wtih Macabee, he's right. The original accusation in this thread was against Jewish charities, and they are not supported with any proof beyond, "Well, they COULD use it for such-and-such and not get caught".

And despite Macabee's deplorable sentence structure, I don't think he was saying that the accusations are criminal - I think he's trying to say that the charities are being accused of doing something criminal, with no evidence to back up those accusations. And he's right.

So unless you have some solid evidence that Jewish charities in Canada are doing illegal fund raising, then I think these accusations need to stop - I'm not keen on having babble open to charges of libel.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 April 2004 08:05 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:
If the standard fits...

Please provide proof of this, or are we supposed to just take your word for it when you attack others for making unsupported statements?



I will not do your research for you. Just check Canadian tax law.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 19 April 2004 08:12 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

As much as it pains me to agree wtih Macabee, he's right. The original accusation in this thread was against Jewish charities, and they are not supported with any proof beyond, "Well, they COULD use it for such-and-such and not get caught".

And despite Macabee's deplorable sentence structure, I don't think he was saying that the accusations are criminal - I think he's trying to say that the charities are being accused of doing something criminal, with no evidence to back up those accusations. And he's right.

So unless you have some solid evidence that Jewish charities in Canada are doing illegal fund raising, then I think these accusations need to stop - I'm not keen on having babble open to charges of libel.


Thank you (I guess).

As for my sentence structure, I always hoped babble was beyond this elitist crap of hitting out at people for spelling or grammar. While I wish I could be like others here who have an amazing facility with words I can only do the best I can with the abilities I have.

If we are now goung to grade individual posters on their writing styles and abilities I only think it is fair to warn them prior to their signing on lest they be in any way humiliated by their lack of style or poor grammar. It will severely limit who posts, however so be it.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 April 2004 08:24 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wasn't trying to humiliate you for your writing style, Macabee. I'm certainly not the grammar queen either. But in this case, using the phrase "criminal accusations" has led people to think that you meant it was they who are "criminal" for making the accusations. Whereas what I think you were trying to say is that people are accusing the charities of doing something criminal. If I'm mistaken, you can correct me.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 April 2004 08:28 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I wasn't trying to humiliate you for your writing style, Macabee. I'm certainly not the grammar queen either. But in this case, using the phrase "criminal accusations" has led people to think that you meant it was they who are "criminal" for making the accusations. Whereas what I think you were trying to say is that people are accusing the charities of doing something criminal. If I'm mistaken, you can correct me.

You are not mistaken. Perhaps there are better ways of correcting people you like or even dislike.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 April 2004 08:35 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps there are. But I don't feel the need to take any special pains to be sensitive to someone who implies that I think Israeli children deserve to be attacked by anti-semites. So tough beans.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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Babbler # 1962

posted 19 April 2004 08:36 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I will not do your research for you. Just check Canadian tax law.

.
(scrolls up)
.
quote:
Unless you can prove this staement it is a vile lie.

What's good for the goose..


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 April 2004 09:17 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hardly. The original accusation was against Jewish charities. It's not up to the charities to prove their innocence - it's up to the people accusing the charities of misdirecting funds to prove THEIR accusation, aRoused.

Imagine what our court system would be like if every charge against the accused could be flipped into, "Prove you DIDN'T do it!"


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 19 April 2004 09:29 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Perhaps there are. But I don't feel the need to take any special pains to be sensitive to someone who implies that I think Israeli children deserve to be attacked by anti-semites. So tough beans.
"Tough beans!!! Gotta love it.

Michelle, it was not my intention to have accused you in any way of even thinking such a horrible thing. I have re-read the post in question and it was clumsily written. I apologize to you and to the board.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 April 2004 10:17 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Re: "tough beans" - heh, it's true, that's kind of old-fashioned, isn't it?

I suppose I could have done the schoolyard chant, "'Tough titty,' said the kitty..." etc.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 19 April 2004 11:34 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hardly. The original accusation was against Jewish charities. It's not up to the charities to prove their innocence - it's up to the people accusing the charities of misdirecting funds to prove THEIR accusation, aRoused.

While I agree in principal, that is not what is being practiced in Canada in regards to Muslim charities. Many Muslim organizatized charities that have tacit connections with organizations can not raise funds in Canada, even though there is no proof that monies set to them will go towards military activities. Organizations such a Hamas engage in verifiable charity work are sanctioned even if there is no proof.

I agree with aRoused, "what is good for the goose is good for the gander." Have it one way but not both. We can't blanket ban some Muslim charities, then encourage Israeli charities when monies sent to them may by used to support the infrastructure of Sharon's terrorist gang.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Udo
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Babbler # 5144

posted 19 April 2004 12:01 PM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

While I agree in principal, that is not what is being practiced in Canada in regards to Muslim charities. Many Muslim organizatized charities that have tacit connections with organizations can not raise funds in Canada, even though there is no proof that monies set to them will go towards military activities. Organizations such a Hamas engage in verifiable charity work are sanctioned even if there is no proof.

I agree with aRoused, "what is good for the goose is good for the gander." Have it one way but not both. We can't blanket ban some Muslim charities, then encourage Israeli charities when monies sent to them may by used to support the infrastructure of Sharon's terrorist gang.



The problem cue is that the Muslim charities banned are TERRORIST groups. Clearly the government of Canada and I would argue the vast vast majority of Canadians ( many Babblers excepted of course)would never consider the ridiculous and offensive idea of labelling Israel as terrorist. That you, would, speaks volumes.

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 19 April 2004 12:06 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaks volumes about what?
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 April 2004 12:12 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The problem cue is that the Muslim charities banned are TERRORIST groups.

And Israel is in the the hands of a terrorist gang, that repeatedly commits war crimes and breaks international law. What is the dif?

We must attack the financial base of the "terrorists." Bush said it first not me.

[ 19 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 19 April 2004 01:21 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thats the thing Cueball..the difference is that Israel is not in the hands of terrorists and is not engageing in terrorist activities, no matter how many times you and your comrades repeat it. Considerig how Israel could be dealing with the terrorists (carpet bombing their cities, nuking countries that offer support, mass expulsions), their approach is incredibly humane. Thats why Canada considers Hamas a terrorist group and not Israel. But keep banging your dead horse The good guys are winning.
From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 19 April 2004 02:39 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"In August of 1953 Sharon, commanded the notorious 101 unit of IDF terrorists, in an attack on the refugee camp of El-Bureig, south of Gaza, where (according to an Israeli history of the 101 unit) 50 refugees were massacred. Other sources allege about 20.
In October of 1953, Sharon commanded the notorious 101 unit of IDF terrorists, in an attack on the Jordanian village of Qibya. Israeli historian Avi Shlaim describes the massacre thus: "Sharon's orders were to penetrate Qibya, blow up houses and inflict heavy casualties on its inhabitants. The village had been reduced to rubble: forty-five houses had been blown up, and sixty-nine civilians, two thirds of them women and children, had been killed".

Israel's foreign minister at the time, Moshe Sharett said "this stain (Qibya) will stick to us and will not be washed away for many years to come".

Between Feb. 28, 1955 and Oct. 10, 1956, Sharon led a paratrooper brigade in similar cross-border invasions of Gaza, Egypt, and the West Bank, Jordan. In the West Bank village of Qalqilya, Sharon's death squad killed 83 people."

Sharon's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 was responsible for some 20,000 Palestinian and Lebanese deaths. The Israelis bombed civilian populations at will. At Sabra and Shatila, he was responsible for the 1,962 massacred there. The killings took over 2 days. All killed were either elderly, women or children and included pregnant women. It is a fact that all those killed were civilians as the fighters had left for Tunis after receiving an assurance from the United States that if they left, the old men, women and children that stayed, would be protected."

http://guardian.911review.org/Palestine/sharon.htm

Yes, Sharon's not a terrorist. And tell all those innocent Palestinians killed by Israel's actions that Israel has been "incredibly humane." And what exactly, and how, are they "winning"?


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 19 April 2004 02:52 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Remember, the world was very different 50 years ago...what is unacceptable now was common then... like I said previously, the bombing of cities in Germany could now be considered terrorism but at the time was seen as an effective tactic. I mean in Arab countries they used to cut off the heads of gays and abuse their women but..oh wait , that is still happening...(and still waiting for the post on it in the babble mid-east forum.....)

... and they are winning by killing off the two top terrorists in Gaza and getting major support on the West bank from the good ol' USA!

Despite some misconceptions, this Intifada is not a grass roots uprising, but a carefully orchestrated campaign of terror..cut off the head and the body will follow. Maybe not today or next week, but down the line Hamas has been severely weakened.


From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 19 April 2004 02:52 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by "o" :
Considerig how Israel could be dealing with the terrorists (carpet bombing their cities, nuking countries that offer support, mass expulsions), their approach is incredibly humane.

Of course! Humane helicopter gunship attacks on old men in wheelchairs! Humane massacres of civilians! Humane bulldozing of Palestinian property! Humane murder of American citizens, there to witness the atrocities! Humane imprisonment of Vanunu for exposing the development of nuclear weapons! Humane Apartheid-style walls! What could be more humane?

Such thinking could turn the Mid-East into a gigantic graveyard. And it won't matter if the gravestones have a cross, a star of David, or a sickle on top. Graveyards are, after all, very humane.

[ 19 April 2004: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 19 April 2004 03:01 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Such amazing logic isn't it.

And suicide bombing are much more humane than than stripping the flesh of victims inch-by-inch isn't it, o?

Macabee, these are the people you are aligned with? Are you proud?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 19 April 2004 03:03 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by o:
Remember, the world was very different 50 years ago...what is unacceptable now was common then... like I said previously, the bombing of cities in Germany could now be considered terrorism but at the time was seen as an effective tactic. I mean in Arab countries they used to cut off the heads of gays and abuse their women but..oh wait , that is still happening...(and still waiting for the post on it in the babble mid-east forum.....)

... and they are winning by killing off the two top terrorists in Gaza and getting major support on the West bank from the good ol' USA!

Despite some misconceptions, this Intifada is not a grass roots uprising, but a carefully orchestrated campaign of terror..cut off the head and the body will follow. Maybe not today or next week, but down the line Hamas has been severely weakened.


Huh? Your first and third points are totally off the mark, even for you. Killing two Palestinians is not going to change anything. It will only serve to fan the flames of hatred toward Israel in the Arab and Muslim world, and increase the disdain towards it in much of the rest of the world. That it has the backing of a neo-con, religiously fanatic administration in Wahsington is only temporary. In due time, the the Zionist enforced political correctness in the U.S. will begin to crumble. The current Israeli government is merely planting the seeds for the Jewish state's eventual destruction.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 19 April 2004 03:47 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well they are dead if they do nothing, so I guess they have nothing to lose. And fanning the flames? hamas supporters never need an excuse..they will kill Jews for any reason..as a a matter of fact, it is when peace talks are moving forward that people like Hamas strike the hardest .

Face reality. The stated goal of hamas in their own charter is to clear Israel of Jews. If Yassin and Rantisi were never hit, they would still try to kill Jews....hell there was a suicide bombing right before Rantisi was killed. If peace is made and a palestinean state comes about Hamas will try to kill Jews.

You know when they will stop trying to kill jews? When Israel beats them so hard that they surrender, or when the moderates tell them "enough".

And yes, this Intifada was planned. Arafats own people admitted it.


From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 19 April 2004 04:00 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You focus on Hamas as if they are all the Palestinians in the world. The average Palestinian doesn't need Hamas to tell him or her of the injustice of the Israeli occupation and policy. They live it every day. I am outraged by the actions and policies of the Israeli government, so I can only imagine how the average Palestinian feels. And Israel didn't always think Hamas was so dangerous because it secretly funded it in the organization's early days, as a counterweight to the PLO.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 19 April 2004 04:25 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well if most Palestineans don't support Hamas, they should speak out against them and let them know that they do not represent them...and if Israel and Hamas were once allied...big deal...Interests are what govern these kind of relationships..at one point america nd russia were allied
From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 19 April 2004 04:29 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, so the ends do justify the means? Israel founding a terrorist organization to kill Israelis is just fine with you. I am glad to know that.

Macabee, remember, he is on your side.

And maybe most Palestinians would be happy to denounce the violence of Hamas at the same tiem Israelis denounce the violence of the buther Sharon. But wait, they continue to elect and support the bloody hand of their murderous leader.

And so do you, don't you?

Evil always has two faces. If Hamas is one, look in the mirror for the other.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 19 April 2004 04:46 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Murderous" "Butcher"..so descriptive....how would you describe Yassin and Rantisi?

Israel propped up Hamas as an alternative to the PLO..it didn't work out..so what should they do, go out and kill the leaders of hamas..oh wait..did that. The intention was not to create a terrorist organization when they helped out Hamas..it just ended up that way..kind of like the PA security forces that used their Israeli guns and training to start killing Jews as soon as Arafat screwed up at Camp David..that wasn't the intention of arming them. So what should Israel do, not try to foster moderate movements?


From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 19 April 2004 05:09 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israel propped up Hamas as an alternative to the PLO..it didn't work out..so what should they do, go out and kill the leaders of hamas..oh wait..did that. The intention was not to create a terrorist organization when they helped out Hamas..it just ended up that way..kind of like the PA security forces that used their Israeli guns and training to start killing Jews as soon as Arafat screwed up at Camp David..that wasn't the intention of arming them. So what should Israel do, not try to foster moderate movements?

Bullshit. What are you a stooge? Hamas was founded out of the Islamic Brotherhood which formed as an extrmist Islamic organization out of Egypt.

They founded it to undermine the secular PLO. Well, fucking congratualtions. How many innocent Jews paid with their lives for that little bit of Israeli back stabbing and double-crossing?

You can tell yourself whatever you want but Israeli hands are soaked in the blood of innocent victims both Jewish and Arab.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
evenflow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3493

posted 19 April 2004 08:27 PM      Profile for evenflow        Edit/Delete Post
Rantisi Killing Boosts Hamas' Popularity

quote:
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Hamas has become more secretive and strapped for cash, but also more popular as a result of Israel's attempt to crush the group, including the assassination of two leaders in a month.

The Israeli strikes have put the Islamic militant group on the defensive, experts said, but have not wiped out its ability to take bloody revenge.


I don't know if reference to this news has already been posted. If Hamas was indeed 'propped up' by Israel (as if) as o suggests, then Sharon and Co. aren't doing a very good job of tearing them down now that they want to remove them.


From: learning land | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 19 April 2004 10:45 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, O, the killing of Yassin and Rantisi will be revenged. In a very big way. Sooner or later.

Further, now that Arafat has been politically emasculated, the formulation of organizations will change. What has always been charged by Israel, will finally come to be: the PLO and Hamas will actually merge. New leadership will come forward.

As for the PNC planning the Intifada: Intifada does not necessarily mean a campaign of suicide bombings or military action. Intifada can also be strikes and public demonstrations. These are actually the things that Fatah organized, not the military attacks. Organized military operations did not begin within Fatah until after the Israeli crackdown.

One also wants to ask, if the PLO eneded negotiations with Israel after Camp David, who was Barak sitting across the table from at Taba? You seem to have forgotten Taba again.

Your interesting, your kind of like a computer program that spouts out these repetitious phrases, but is also able to learn. These discussions happen, you accept new and different information and discuss it. Then you go to sleep, and in the morning you reboot, and everything that was disucussed the day before is gone and we have to start at square one all over again. And it is Camp David that exists and Taba is no where to be found in your memory.

Good luck to you O, you are going to need it.

[ 19 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
o
rabble-rouser
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posted 20 April 2004 03:43 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know about Taba, but Taba happened AFTER the violence began..by that point the genie was out of the bag and all hell was breaking loose. If Arafat negotiated in good faith to begin with, and not tried to pull a "lebanon" his people would be leading much better lives today...and make no mistake about it. The palestinains are the ones loosing this conflict..Life in Israel is pretty much business as normal, suicide bombings have dropped off considerably. The violence has not shaken Israels resolve. Israel is not Spain. Meanwhile the average Palistinean family is getting by on barely 1000 bucks a year, their economy is destroyed and their lives controlled by israeli checkpoints. The violence brought them nothing but despair.

And of course Hamas will try to retaliate..they don't need much of an excuse...and it's not like they were pulling punches up to this point....thanks to the IDf many of their nefarious plots were foiled ( like the one to blow up an oil refinery last year).

And lets not argue semantics over the term Intifada....would you prefer if I call it "violent uprising" or "campaign of barbaric terror"?


From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 20 April 2004 05:17 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sorry, O, the killing of Yassin and Rantisi will be revenged. In a very big way. Sooner or later.

quote:
The long arm of Israel will continue to hunt the terrorists," Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said in Ashkelon Tuesday (April 20, 2004), hinting that Israel may target Hamas' Damascus-based leader, Khaled Mashal.

Our clueless seer is about to find out that fucking around with Israel will get you screwed. In a very big way. Much sooner than later.

From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 April 2004 05:23 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Fucking and screwed? Gee, no wonder the extremists keep at it. And here I am...not gettin' any.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 20 April 2004 05:47 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Our clueless seer is about to find out that fucking around with Israel will get you screwed. In a very big way. Much sooner than later

Great idea David Blithering_Dolt. Israel should piss off even more of its Arab and Muslim neighbours and further inflame anti-Israel and anti-Semetic sentiment by taking its murder campaign to other countries. A sure recipe for lasting peace.

Fuckheads.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
o
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4435

posted 20 April 2004 06:08 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israels neighbours have already launched 3 wars against them with the goal of driving Jews into the sea. How much angrier can they get? I doubt that they loved Israel then or will love them now, no matter what they do.

Maybe it's time for them to fear Israel. To show Israel the respect it deserves as the only democracy in the region and champion of causes that the left holds so dear ( equal treatment of women and gays, free press, democracy, a real judicial system etc.) Maybe it's time for the Arab street to start worrying about pissing off theIsraeli street. Maybe when they learn that you don't want to piss off armed Jews, peace and stability will come to their countries.


From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 20 April 2004 06:33 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israels neighbours have already launched 3 wars against them with the goal of driving Jews into the sea. How much angrier can they get? I doubt that they loved Israel then or will love them now, no matter what they do.

There hasn't been a full-on Arab-Israeli war since 1973. Egypt and Jordan have both signed peace agreements with Israel. So "driving the Jews into the sea" hasn't been policy in these nations for more than 25 years. Further Israeli aggression could change that.

quote:
Maybe it's time for them to fear Israel. To show Israel the respect it deserves as the only democracy in the region and champion of causes that the left holds so dear ( equal treatment of women and gays, free press, democracy, a real judicial system etc.) Maybe it's time for the Arab street to start worrying about pissing off theIsraeli street. Maybe when they learn that you don't want to piss off armed Jews, peace and stability will come to their countries.

Translation: "the Arabs need to roll over and give Israel whatever it wants, even if that means the continued ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Israel has the might, that makes them right."

By the way, o, didn't you flounce out of here a while back? How come you didn't stay flounced?

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: black_dog ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
o
rabble-rouser
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posted 20 April 2004 06:49 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I did flounce out of here Black Dog, but the lord told me that my work on babble was not yet complete..I must still fight the good fight for Israel..that and work can be pretty boring.

But seriously, you have proven my point..after Israel defeated Egypt and Jordan numerous times, they have come to their senses and realized that they could not beat Israel in a fight, so they did the smart thing and made peace.

I am not asking anyone to roll over..I am sure that most Arabs want to live life the way most Israelis want to live ..to make money and provide a good life for their family and friends in peace...but they won't get that by fighting..in the words of the great sage George W. Bush..They asked for war and war is what they will get"...start asking for peace and maybe it will come.

And it's not the might that makes Israel right, it's the moral way they are handling this conflict..more Palestinains were killed by Jordan in the 70's in one week that during all the clashes with Israel. The fact that kids can stand in front of tanks and throw rocks and not get shot (most of the time) is proof of this....try that in Iran or Saudi Arabia or under Saddams Iraq...which is probably why there was no International Solidarity Movement with the Kurds..those "internationals" would have gotten smoked so fast if they pulled the crap they pull in Israel in any other country.


From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 20 April 2004 07:12 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
David B-D quoted and commented:

quote:
The long arm of Israel will continue to hunt the terrorists," Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said in Ashkelon Tuesday (April 20, 2004), hinting that Israel may target Hamas' Damascus-based leader, Khaled Mashal.


Our clueless seer is about to find out that fucking around with Israel will get you screwed. In a very big way. Much sooner than later.


Hey! I remember that caper. They tried that one before. That was the comedians from Mossad who were using Canadian passports, yes? They failed. Way to give Canadians a bad rep twice over, eh?

Some historically ignorant person claims up above that Taba happened after the second intifada had begun. Wrong. Look it up yourself. We've gone through this too often to go back to square one each time.

And o, who, it appears, can be embarrassed by almost nothing, including his alliance for one afternoon a few weeks back (on a thread about Iraq) with an obvious troll who turned out (on another thread) to be one of the only genuine Holocaust deniers we've ever had on babble, dearest shameless o who looks for anti-semites in all the wrong place (obviously), I have been a personal Kurdish liberation mover for years. J'adore les Kurds. Yay free Kurdistan.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
o
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4435

posted 20 April 2004 07:19 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You got me confused..I only post on Israel, not Iraq and I usually dont ally with anyone..Are you not refering to the Taba conference that happened in 2001? The Intifada began in 2000.
From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 20 April 2004 07:20 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hey! I remember that caper. They tried that one before. That was the comedians from Mossad who were using Canadian passports, yes? They failed. Way to give Canadians a bad rep twice over, eh?

The difference between Mossad and your ilk, skdadl, is that, Mossad learns from its errors.

You don't.

And neither does the Palestinian leadership.


From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
o
rabble-rouser
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posted 20 April 2004 07:23 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From "arab gate"

"The Israeli-Palestinian talks held at Taba, Egypt, in January 2001 - shortly before the election of Ariel Sharon as Israeli prime minister - made good progress on many issues that had been left unresolved at the Camp David summit six months earlier."

Intifada first, Taba second. I stand by my post.


From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 April 2004 07:35 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Score! O....High five!
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 April 2004 07:40 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by o:
You got me confused..I only post on Israel, not Iraq and I usually dont ally with anyone..Are you not refering to the Taba conference that happened in 2001? The Intifada began in 2000.

What? You only post about Israel, you say? Such an obsession, o! I wonder if Macabee and Udo would find that to be...telling?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 20 April 2004 07:41 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, it did.
Sharon purposely set out to destablize Israel and the region and he was very succesful causing the violence to ratchet up to a very tense and deadly period for purely manipulative purposes.

And in the election he brought about by destablising Barak's government, he made it clear he would not abide any decision agreed to by Israel with the Palestinians who had signalled agreement.

The less than spineless Barak, then said he would not sign Taba and leave Sharon bound by an agreement.

It has all been sourced and posted here if you care enough about the truth to dig it up.

So, long story short, o, it was the Butcher Sharon who made it clear he would not accept an agreement (even accused the Palestinians and Barak of attempting to undermine his campaign of terror by agreeing to peace) and the coward Barak who let him have his way and left the path open for hundereds of Israeli and thousands of Palestinian deaths and injuries.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 20 April 2004 07:42 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well someone has to stand up for what is right. And that person would be me. O.
From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 April 2004 07:45 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"And that person would be me. O."

Why am I suddenly picturing some guy sitting at his computer with a red cape and bodysuit, with a big "O" plastered on his chest?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
o
rabble-rouser
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posted 20 April 2004 07:45 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So Sharon now has super powers? He knew that by visiting the Temple mount he would A) start a new intifada which would b) trigger an election, which would c) let him win, which would d) allow him to reject peace proposals that have not even been proposed yet? Man this guy sounds amazing. I am glad he is running Israel. Keep up the good work Super Sharon!
From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 April 2004 07:54 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Well, the only alternative explanation would be that Sharon is irretrievably stupid. Which one is it, o?

...and mind the carpal-tunnel...you're dangerously close.

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 20 April 2004 08:04 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And lets not argue semantics over the term Intifada....would you prefer if I call it "violent uprising" or "campaign of barbaric terror"?


Actually yes I would prefer it that you did, because that would then mean you are talking about one sepcific set of actions and not the other. You, among others have tried to lay the blame for the violent uprising at the feet of Yasser Arafat, saying that he planned it. When in fact the Intifada as planned by Fateh was a series of strikes and demonstrations. By directly confrontin Israel, it may be the case that Fateh let the genie out of the bottle, but it is not that they planned for it to become the struggle as pursued by Sharon and Hamas, and later by Al-Aksa.

So Arafat now has super powers? He knew that by confronting Israel in a series of strikes and demonstrations that Israel would escalate minor and obviously spontaneous acts of Palestinian like rock throwing by juveniles into a violent campaign of assassination and invasion.

And O, Sharon does not need to be able to read the future in order to know that the walk on the temple mount will escalate not diminsh tension.

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 20 April 2004 09:25 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A) start a new intifada which would b) trigger an election, which would c) let him win, which would d) allow him to reject peace proposals that have not even been proposed yet?

A) Well, lets see: Take an armed force to the most important and contested holy site in the region and evict the worshippers in the name of "peace" (said while grinning) so you can have a walk around and you just happen to be the most anti-Arab politician who supports stealing Palestinian land and are directly responsible for massacres of innocent men, women and children. Yeah, I see your point. Who could guess the out come?

B) And in the unforseeable event that ungrateful Palestinians would actually object to such a deliberate provocation who would have thought they would riot, and then come under attack by vigialante settlers, leading to the shaky Israeli coallition becoming unstable. I would never have guessed. Well, I did actually.

C) And then, out of the blue, as violence escalates with Palestinians rioting and settlers attacking Palestinians (while authorities look the other way) Sharon promises an Iron Fist to deal with the uppity Palestinians who still demand human rights and don't yet know their place. And Israelis, unwilling to face up to their own complicty as they bask in the luxury of their stolen resources, are fearful of those very same angry and uppity Palestinians. Who would think they would choose more violence? Every time.

D) You don't even know the history you are trying to discuss.

I have no personal stake in the outcome either way. But I read. Try it.

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2978

posted 20 April 2004 10:32 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Last night I was struck by the people in Gaza being interviewed on Newsworld. They supported Hamas because Hamas fed them. When you are hated, oppressed and starved, you go with who feeds you and treats you as a human being.

I don't like Hamas. Politically, I support the leftwing of the PLO and the Israeli peace movement. They don't, can't or won't meet the basic material needs of the most oppressed layer of Palestinian people.

People do odd things to survive.


From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 21 April 2004 06:37 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
O, you should read this:

quote:
Today, another leader was assassinated, another Sheikh Ahmad Yasin.
Rantisi was a political man, whether we liked him or not…
ArRantisi was another safety value that the Bush and Sharon administrations destroyed.

I am ANGRY!!! VERY ANGRY!!!
I am a secular leftist! But I am angry!!!!
Can you imagine what do other millions of right winged religious people feel????
I can’t even concentrate and know if my words will make any sense!!

... ...

Don’t let Bush build a new generation of extremists

I am losing faith that words can solve anything when Bush and Sharon are ruling the world, and I can feel that explosion that will destroy everything is coming; it will destroy us and destroy you.

The explosion is coming.
The volcano of the Middle East is not going to sleep forever.


Raed in the middle


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 April 2004 08:17 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How did this thread get so long?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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