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Author Topic: Is Zionism Hertical?
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 14 April 2004 08:11 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WHY ARE WE AGAINST THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND ITS WARS?

quote:
Thus, ultimate heresy of Zionism, its denial of Divine providence over history was inevitable outgrowth of an overall rejection of G-d and Torah which typified the movement’s founders, The Subsequent history of this bizarre ideology has been a ceaseless record of overt anti-Torah acts. Included in this sorry record are indiscriminate and coerced autopsies, mass desecration of cemeteries, conscription of women into the army and recent efforts to lure Rabbinical seminarians into the armed forces.

The Central Rabbinical Congress of the U.S.A. & Canada


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
charlessumner
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posted 14 April 2004 12:06 PM      Profile for charlessumner     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This would make more sense in the Middle East forum, surely?
From: closer everyday | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Udo
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posted 14 April 2004 01:07 PM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes but Cue seems set on engaging in Anti-Israel rhetoric wherever and when ever he can.
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 14 April 2004 01:09 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Having no counter-argument is no reason to get huffy.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 14 April 2004 01:44 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
Having no counter-argument is no reason to get huffy.

Oh, but it is.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 14 April 2004 02:20 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
These are the ultra-orthodox anti-Zionists, who believe a state of Israel must await the coming of the messiah. While they are certainly entitled to their beliefs, I don't happen to share it. My opposition to Zionism is strictly based on secular concerns, involving democratic secularism and pluralism. Also I think it was a geopolitical error to place what would inevitably be viewed as a western colony in the heart of the Arab world. The instability resulting from the establishment of what was essentially a European state in the heart of the middle east are plain for all to see.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 April 2004 02:52 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The so-called normalization of the Jew was a tragic illusion from the start. But when this normalization is expected to flourish in the very heart of Islam, it is worse than tragic-it is suicidal. Horrendous as Hitler was for us, he lasted a mere twelve years, and what is twelve years to the Jew? The time has come to return to Europe that was for centuries, and remains to this day, the most authentic Jewish homeland there has ever been, the birthplace of rabbinic Judaism, Hasidic Judaism, Jewish secularism, socialism-and on and on. The birthplace, of course, of Zionism too. But Zionism has outlived its historical function. The time has come to renew in the European diaspora our preeminent spiritual and cultural role.

In Praise of Diasporism, or, Three Cheers for Irving Berlin


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 14 April 2004 03:11 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wonderful article, al Q'bong. I've forwarded it to several "self-hating" friends and a couple of fellow "anti-semites" (the latter in the same vein as my hating Italy and black cats...).

What the Nation article calls for is happening, not so much in Poland as in Germany. That REALLY pisses off both anti-semitic neo-Nazis and hard-arsed Zionists... The Jewish community in Germany is the fastest-growing in the world. Mostly from the former Soviet Union and other Eastern European countries, but even some former Israelis, the grandchildren of persecuted German Jews, or Jewish Germans ...

Jews return to Germany

By the way, I agree with Josh. It is perhaps interesting that some highly-orthodox Jews oppose Israel, but I have nothing in common with religious fundamentalists of any sort. Much prefer the secular arguments put forth by al Q'bongs article.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 April 2004 03:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moving this to the Middle East forum.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 April 2004 04:47 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Zionism is a 19th century European nationalist ideology, and as such should be discussed as an "idea."

I don't agree with ghettoizing this idea in the Middle East Forum.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 April 2004 07:09 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is true - but you just know it's going to turn into a pissing match about Israel/Palestine and how people who don't support Israel are antisemites within about 10 posts.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Udo
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posted 14 April 2004 07:31 PM      Profile for Udo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Zionism is the national dream of the Jewish people. It is accepted by the vast majority of Jews around the world.

This of course would include Jews from all the politcal spectrum such as Rabbi Michael Lerner a well known American social activist and leftist, groups like Peace Now etc.

I even wonder if Judy Rebick of this very board might consider herself a Zionist in the Michael Lerner sense?


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 14 April 2004 07:50 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Udo:
Zionism is the national dream of the Jewish people.

Well, I suppose this is trivially true in the sense that there aren't any dreams of the Jewish people that involve starting a nation somewhere else. So to the extent that a Jewish person has a national dream, Zionism would be it.

The question is how relevant national dreams are to the Jewish people, relative to say, cultural dreams, political dreams, religious dreams. The Jewish people have lots of those and most of them don't have a national component.

It might also be true to say that Zionism is the national nightmare of the Jewish people . . .


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 14 April 2004 08:12 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Zionism is the national dream of the Jewish people. It is accepted by the vast majority of Jews around the world."

If the first sentence were true, then an overwhelming majority of the "Jewish people" would be living in Israel. The second sentence is true in that it has been accepted by a "vast majority," albeit with varying degrees of enthusiasm. Of course, since Zionists have enforced a form of political correctness that brooks no dissent and has succeeded in having only side of the story told, the result is not surprising. What I find refreshing is that more and more Jews are beginning to see that a separate Jewish state in the heart of the Arab world is not the answer. In fact, it has created more problems than it has solved. No one has done more to expose the dark side of Zionism than the thuggish brute named Ariel Sharon.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
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posted 15 April 2004 01:08 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm interested to read the Nation article, but like others, I'm not terribly interested in fringe, ultra-Orthodox arguments against Zionism. One of my problems with Zionism is that it appeals to theology as a justification for colonialism...I hardly think theological arguments against Zionism have more merit. Much more interesting were the debates between left-wing anti-Zionist Jews and Zionists in the early part of the twentieth century.

At any rate, as I understand it, a much smaller proportion of Orthodox Jews opposes pre-messianic Israel than did 50 years ago. (As I understand it there are two distinct Orthodox arguments against it: one has to do with the coming of the messiah, and the other is an argument about idolatry: that Zionism is a form of idolatry in which the land of Israel itself is an idol.)


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 15 April 2004 07:14 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just don't know much about it so I was hoping to get feedback, perhaps some zionist counter arguements.

[ 15 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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