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Author Topic: 11% of Palestinians killed by other Palestinians, study shows
Justice
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posted 13 April 2004 02:25 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What should we make of this???

quote:
Over 11 percent of Palestinians killed during the intifada died at the hands of other Palestinians, according to a report by the Jerusalem-based Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group (PHRMP), headed by Bassem Eid.




The recently published report, which sheds light on the chaos in the territories, is entitled "Intra'Fada." It states that 2,678 Palestinians were killed by the IDF during the intifada, while 297 Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians.

Some 114 of the victims were clearly executed for allegedly collaborating with Israel, but the report describes a steep rise in other cases of murder as a result of criminal activity or family feuds.


continued here


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 April 2004 02:49 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, well, that's a relief. That means the IDF is only responsible for 89% instead of 100%.

I'll be sure to stop the presses, etc.


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Cueball
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posted 13 April 2004 03:00 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tough times.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 April 2004 03:23 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...but the report describes a steep rise in other cases of murder as a result of criminal activity or family feuds.

What percentage of Canadian murder victims are killed by other Canadians?

[ 13 April 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


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aRoused
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posted 13 April 2004 04:33 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the report describes a steep rise in other cases of murder as a result of criminal activity or family feuds.

I would make of it that they're inflating their figures by including people killed for reasons outside the actual intifada, is what I'd make of it.

Feh.


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Cueball
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posted 13 April 2004 05:40 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Another way to look at these statistics:

Number non-occupation related deaths: 183
Population: 3 Million.
Years of Intifada: 3.5 years
Deaths per year: 52

Population of Greater Vancouver: 2 Million
Average homocides per year: 55

Population of Israel: 6.6 Million
Murder rate (2003): 206

Adjust these figures for population Murder per Million People:

Israel: 31
Vancouverites: 22.5
Palestinians: 17

Palestinians are clearly a passive and generally law abiding people, who murder each other less than wealthy Vancouverites or Israelis.


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Cueball
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posted 13 April 2004 05:49 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Site for crime statistics in Israel
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Justice
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posted 13 April 2004 12:48 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting info cueball. Although I wish it were possible to find a break down of the statistics in Israel because to my knowledge a significant portion of the murders Israel would be from Arab family feuds in Ramle (not to be confused with Ramala) and lod and Bedouins murdering Bedouins also over family cultural disputes.

Domestic violence does sadly occur in Israel and it is on the rise sadly probably due to the crumbly socio economic state of the country however but those are different because they culturally accepted in those societies,

What concerns me most about the deaths in Palestine after the number of innocent civilian killed by the IDF is this:

quote:
Some 114 of the victims were clearly executed for allegedly collaborating with Israel

People go to jail for being so called traitors in Israel they even get trial they don't get executed. Even though it is the only type of crime in Israel where during wartime capital punishment is permissible

[ 13 April 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 April 2004 01:09 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You've heard of "necklacing" during the resistance to South African Apartheid?

Collaborators, be they French, American or Iraqi, are seldom treated charitably by those engaged in resistance against occupation.


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Justice
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posted 13 April 2004 01:14 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
so are you saying its o.k.?

or that it is not really but you sort of understand and sympathies under the circumstances?


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Rufus Polson
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posted 13 April 2004 03:40 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
People go to jail for being so called traitors in Israel they even get trial they don't get executed. Even though it is the only type of crime in Israel where during wartime capital punishment is permissible

Gee. Sounds to me as if what Palestine needs is a functioning police and justice system. Pity Israel bombed it out of existence.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 April 2004 05:08 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Justice:
so are you saying its o.k.?

or that it is not really but you sort of understand and sympathies under the circumstances?


Neither.

I'm saying such violent acts appear to be a common trait among resistance movements.


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dark_blue
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posted 13 April 2004 05:27 PM      Profile for dark_blue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe they should learn to quit blowing themselves up.
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Scout
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posted 13 April 2004 05:36 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"They"?
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dark_blue
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posted 13 April 2004 05:49 PM      Profile for dark_blue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, maybe the palestinians should learn to quit blowing themselves up. I know it is a small minority who do it, but it does make the entire group of people look bad.
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o
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posted 13 April 2004 05:54 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And the ones that dont blow themselves up should stop glorifying those that do by naming streets after them, marketting playing cards with their images and the latest outrage..collectable suicide bomber stickers! I hear they are a "blast" to collect!

Ok I know that joke sucks but I couldn't resist.


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Scout
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posted 13 April 2004 05:56 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
maybe the palestinians should learn to quit blowing themselves up.

Do you grasp that this comment is somewhat racist? It doesn't that your trying to soften it up with this:

quote:
I know it is a small minority who do it, but it does make the entire group of people look bad.

But it's not working for me.


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Coyote
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posted 13 April 2004 06:02 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Scout:

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
maybe the palestinians should learn to quit blowing themselves up.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you grasp that this comment is somewhat racist?


There is only one racism that counts: Anti-semitism. And anti-semites, if you remember correctly, are easily identified by their interest in human rights, their opposition to rapacious global capitalism, and other involvements in trying to make the world a better place. You've really gotta get with the program.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 13 April 2004 06:04 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As to the title: I really hope I live to see the day when 100% percent of Palestinians, unfortunate enough to be murdered, are murder by their co-citizens and not the occupying army of another country.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mycroft_
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posted 13 April 2004 06:13 PM      Profile for Mycroft_     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This reminds me of the days when South Africa's apartheid government used to talk about the amount of "black on black violence" in the townships.
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Cueball
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posted 13 April 2004 07:46 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Interesting info cueball. Although I wish it were possible to find a break down of the statistics in Israel because to my knowledge a significant portion of the murders Israel would be from Arab family feuds in Ramle (not to be confused with Ramala) and lod and Bedouins murdering Bedouins also over family cultural disputes.

No. Given that we have coparative statistics from another simillar ethnic group (Palestinians in the Gaza Srip and the West Bank,) it is not fair to deduce that Arab people in Israel contribut excesively to the 'civil' murdrer rate of Israel. Unless of course you have contrary statistics. It is actually logical to deduce that Israels 1 million Arabs contribute at a rate of 17 per million, as per the Palestinian statistics.

I would suggest that their is general prejudice in operation here, whereby Israelis and Israeli journalists have become accostomed to identfying and playing up the "lawless uncivililzed behaviour of Arabs." Your statement about the Bedouin tribes and Arab family feuding is an example of this.

Such 'common knowledge' prejudices about aboriginal groups are a common feature of colonial projects.

Your statistics actually counter your assertion. Honestly, do you think it possible that your common knowledge impressions of Arab culture has been distorted by seventy years of strife and the tendency of one side to in a conflict to vilify the other?

Also: Anthropologically speaking 'the blood feud,' common among people not organized into state structures, are actually a very potent deterent to violent crime such as murder, on the principal that any murder will result in your own. I am not an adherent of capital punishement, but it does serve as a kind of law, when there is no other. Even your article notes that most crimes do not go investigated in Gaza, so as is normal people deveise their own law as a deterent.

Read: "Always Outnumbered Alway Outgunned" by Walter Mosley -- it is about vigilante law in South Central LA, among other things.

[ 13 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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DavidB-D
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posted 13 April 2004 08:23 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I really hope I live to see the day when 100% percent of Palestinians, unfortunate enough to be murdered, are murder by their co-citizens

You won't have to wait long. (Just as soon as the IDF is within safe distance.)

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Cueball
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posted 13 April 2004 08:31 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of "common knowledge prejudice."
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Cueball
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posted 13 April 2004 08:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What I want to know is why Israeli civil society is twice as violent as Arab society?

Is it because of the heavy influence of US gun culture? Baruch Goldstein comes to mind.

Is it because of the continuing occupation that is degrading the moral fiber of Israeli Society, like the IDf resisters charge?

Is it because the constant use of state sanctioned and state justified violence against the Palestinians, likewise has promoted the same attitude of conflict resolution between Iraelis?

I guess it might be a mix of all of these.


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dark_blue
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posted 13 April 2004 09:35 PM      Profile for dark_blue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What I want to know is why Israeli civil society is twice as violent as Arab society?

Yes, I mean it is those darn Israelis going into cafes full of inocent people and blowing themselves up.


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Coyote
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posted 13 April 2004 09:49 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
dark_blue:

Do you really want the tit-for-tat there?

Yeah, you don't see Palestinians dropping high-tonnage bombs on apartment buildings to kill one guy. So there.

There. Tit for tat.


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dark_blue
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posted 13 April 2004 10:27 PM      Profile for dark_blue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course you forget why is one guy who is wanted by Israel hiding in a place full of inocent people, if he knows they could die?
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WingNut
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posted 13 April 2004 10:47 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where would you have him be? Do you have the same attitude toward an Israeli soldier on a crowded bus?
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dark_blue
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posted 13 April 2004 10:53 PM      Profile for dark_blue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Where would you have him be? Do you have the same attitude toward an Israeli soldier on a crowded bus?

A Israel soldier, and a hamas terrorist are two totaly different things. A Israel soldier is defending the people of Israel from Hamas terrorist, but it is interesting to see where the main Arab terrorist headquarters are at, the majority of them see to be right in the middle of civillian homes, I wonder if they did that by accident?


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No Yards
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posted 13 April 2004 10:58 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
SO what would you have them do?

If you were a Hamas member how would you fight the battle against your occupiers?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 13 April 2004 11:11 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As far as I can tell Israeli soldiers live in homes within communities also. And best I can tell Israeli soldiers routinely kill innocent Palestinians. In fact. the only difference between a Hamas extremist and an Israeli soldier is that the Israeli soldier gets a pay cheque for killing.
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dark_blue
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posted 13 April 2004 11:18 PM      Profile for dark_blue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you were a Hamas member how would you fight the battle against your occupiers?

Israel has reached out to the PLO for peace, Arafat refused.

quote:
As far as I can tell Israeli soldiers live in homes within communities also. And best I can tell Israeli soldiers routinely kill innocent Palestinians. In fact. the only difference between a Hamas extremist and an Israeli soldier is that the Israeli soldier gets a pay cheque for killing.

Am talking daily activity. You don't see a Israel soldier go into a building full of inocent people are fire on a Arab.


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 April 2004 11:31 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft:
This reminds me of the days when South Africa's apartheid government used to talk about the amount of "black on black violence" in the townships.

Huh. Reminds me of something else: How Americans often use the excuse of "black on black" violence to distract attention away from the ingrained racism and structural economic inequities inherent in the USA.

It also handily obscures the fact that most white people aren't doing very much to help the situation, since it's "those people" that are the "problem".


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
dark_blue
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posted 13 April 2004 11:33 PM      Profile for dark_blue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It also handily obscures the fact that most white people aren't doing very much to help the situation, since it's "those people" that are the "problem".

So blacks who kill blacks is the fault of white people some how?


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 13 April 2004 11:56 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I rest my case.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 April 2004 12:00 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by dark_blue:
Am talking daily activity. You don't see a Israel soldier go into a building full of inocent people are fire on a Arab.

No, they use rockets instead.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 14 April 2004 12:26 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
*INSTAPLONK*

(better late than never)


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 April 2004 12:32 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In anycase DB, this is about 'civil' violence, based on crimes committed outside of the conflict between Arabs and Israelis. The statistics compiled, those in the article presented by Justice and further material I brought forward from the Isreali statistics bureau show that intra-Israeli homocide is greater than Intra-Palestinian homocide. This is all new information to me, spitting fest which you are trying to instigate is not. It is boring in fact.

Israelis kill each other at double the rate that Palestinians do, if you exclude casualties due to the ongoing dispute over the occupied territories, according to Israeli sources.

I am interested in theories as to why this is?


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dark_blue
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posted 14 April 2004 12:33 AM      Profile for dark_blue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No, they use rockets instead.

How are they suppose to stop suicide bombers? Asking them does not work, trying to go through the PLO does not work? So what do you suggest?


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 April 2004 12:49 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let me ask you this: What ever happend to the snipers bullet? Are you saying that one sick old preacher in a wheel-chair was too fast for snipers bullet?
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dark_blue
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posted 14 April 2004 12:51 AM      Profile for dark_blue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What ever happend to the snipers bullet? Are you saying that one sick old preacher in a wheel-chair was too fast for snipers bullet?

A sniper would be in the middle of the violence after a shooting, it would not work.


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 April 2004 12:56 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The sniper would be inside the Apache helicopter actually. The Apache has been proven to be a very stable sniping platform.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 April 2004 12:58 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So what do you suggest?

It's the occupation, stupid.


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Cueball
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posted 14 April 2004 01:04 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 14 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
dark_blue
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posted 14 April 2004 01:04 AM      Profile for dark_blue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The sniper would be inside the Apache helicopter actually. The Apache has been proven to be a very stable sniping platform.

If I remember correctly the missile only killed one person.

quote:
It's the occupation, stupid.

Oh the very same occupartion Israel has been willing to end for the right to exist along side a Palestinian nation, except Arafat turned it down?


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 April 2004 01:06 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If I remember correctly the missile only killed one person.

No it killed 3 and injured many more. Again it amazes me how bereft of facts the supporters of the occupation actually are, and yet they try to speak with authority on the subject. And they used three missiles not one. Ridiculous.

[ 14 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
dark_blue
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posted 14 April 2004 01:20 AM      Profile for dark_blue     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No it killed 3 and injured many more. Again it amazes me how bereft of facts the supporters of the occupation actually are, and yet they try to speak with authority on the subject. And they used three missiles not one. Ridiculous.

Yes, killing a man who gives the order for suicide bombings.


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 April 2004 02:21 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh the very same occupartion Israel has been willing to end for the right to exist along side a Palestinian nation, except Arafat turned it down?

I haven't heard of that one. Did you just make it up?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 April 2004 02:26 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually its not even clear that Yassin gave the orders. I think his role was to absolve 'sucide bomber/victims' of their guilt for suicide under Islamic law.

In anycase you are interesting case of completely circular argument:

    Statement: The killing was justified because of the target.

    Answer: What about those others killed in the operation?

    Statement: I believe the target was the only one killed.

    Answer: No that is not the case.

    Statement: The killing was justified because of the target.

It is entirely rhetorical and of no value. The reason it it entirely rhetorical is probably becauase you actually know almost nothing about the subject on a factual level. Your statement about the Yassin killing being a prime example.

It is almost a truism that people who have any detailed information on the subject do not hold your position, even those who support Israel. Even Israelis! Even Israelis who support the occupation. Usually your position is espoused by people who have never really spent much time in Israel and spout off from the comfort of their home in North America.

They also read the Jerusalem Post. Did you know thet the JP readership is declining in Israel and increasing in North America?

Interesting fact, huh?

Here is what an Israeli has to say about the Yassin assassination: Who Won World War II?

quote:
Following the assassination, Israeli military echelons quoted in Ha'aretz (23.3.04) called it "a constitutive event," one that would make History. Indeed. Unless a global reaction against this barbarism emerges – not an Al-Qaeda type of reaction, which shares this very barbarism, but something like the recent Spanish example; unless we renew the struggle for the legacy of the Allies who won World War II, and get rid of all those responsible for the barbarisation of the human kind, Israel's assassination of Sheik Yassin may enter history as the moment in which Hitler's concept of war for annihilation, of contempt for the basic convictions and conventions of humanity, celebrated its triumph, shared and imposed by the axis of Sharon, Bush and Bin Laden.

[ 14 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 April 2004 02:36 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That of course brings me back to the subject of the moral decline of Israeli society:

Why every Jewish Soldier should refuse

quote:
Take the ex-judicial killings of Palestinian political leaders, for example. Certainly, these ex-judicial killings are tantamount to premeditated murder. To me, there is nothing shocking in saying that a country which has "legalized" ex-judicial killings has implemented terror tactics. These killings have no justification in any sane polity. This leads to a conclusion that since Israel has implemented terror tactics, it has become itself a terror organization. This means that until the occupation ends completely and Israel stops resorting to abhorrent terror tactics, Israel should be added to the U.S list of terrorist organizations.

Shamai Leibowitz, Attorney, Tank Gunner in Reserve Duty, Tel Aviv

[ 14 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 14 April 2004 10:00 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote: If you were a Hamas member how would you fight the battle against your occupiers?

Israel has reached out to the PLO for peace, Arafat refused.

---

That's not answering the question. Actually, that's not even an answer to any question except if by "reached out" you mean "bend to our will or we will kill you and your family!"

But since you obviously have blinders on when it comes to Israel, let's change locations . . . let's say the USA was occupying Calgary and raising Calgarian homes and lobbing missles into crowds of people in order to kill Calgarian leaders, all the while moving Calgarians out of whole sections of the city and putting American citizens in their place behind newly walled communities .. How would you go about defending Calgary?

Would you put on your Calgary militia uniform, grab your squirrely rifle, form a line with your fellow Calgary militiamen and march straight towards the USA military might to be mowed down in a few seconds?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
scribblet
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posted 14 April 2004 11:59 AM      Profile for scribblet        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:

Do you grasp that this comment is somewhat racist? It doesn't that your trying to soften it up with this:.


I don't get it, how is stating a fact, 'racist'

What I seem to get here, is that anyone who disagrees with Palestinian tactics is 'racist'.

Maybe if the Palestinians showed more of a propensity for peace, than violence, and acknowledged Israel's right to exist, maybe there would be peace.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 14 April 2004 12:03 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[quibble]
raising Calgarian homes

I think you meant razing. If the Israelis were raising Palestinian homes, I'd be the first in line applauding such action.

[/quibble]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 14 April 2004 12:18 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scribblet:

Maybe if the Palestinians showed more of a propensity for peace, than violence, and acknowledged Israel's right to exist, maybe there would be peace.


A propensity for violence? Sounds like racism to me....no "scare" quotes required. I predict a long, friendly and productive stay at babble for you, scribblet.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 April 2004 12:22 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Maybe if the Palestinians showed more of a propensity for peace, than violence, and acknowledged Israel's right to exist, maybe there would be peace.

Perhaps if Israel showed a propensity for peace, eh?

But, you know, Palestinians have recognized Israel's right to exist. And what is there reward? Occupation. The theft of land and resources. An open air concentration camp. Malnutrition. The destruction of their schools and an entire generation without hope. Daily brutaility and violence. Told they will never be welcome to return to the homes taken from them through force of arms and ethnic cleansing.

And all because they are not Jewish enough to be Israeli? Racist is the polite word.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 14 April 2004 12:51 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:
[quibble]
raising Calgarian homes

I think you meant razing. If the Israelis were raising Palestinian homes, I'd be the first in line applauding such action.

[/quibble]


Thanks for the correction . . . but I don't think it matters much as there is unlikely to be a reply to the question no matter how perfectly it is worded or how precise the spelling!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 14 April 2004 01:07 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wing wroet "But, you know, Palestinians have recognized Israel's right to exist."


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA you truly are a wingnut if you believe this to be true! What planet are you living on? How have the Palestinians recognized Israels right to exist?

By printing textbooks that show palestine to be the entire state of Israel?
By suporting groups like Hamas whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of jews?
By supporting 3 wars against Israel?
By dancing in the street after 9-11 and when Saddam shot scuds at israel during gulf war one?
By Arafat making statemnets in Arabaic calling the peace treaty stage one of the plan to eliminate israel?
By glorifying and nameing streets after suicide bombers?
By supporting suicide bombing by a huge margin in poll after poll?
By killing their own people in cold blood who sell land to Jews?

Maybe if you took off the tinfoil hat you could see things a little more clearly. You can say many things about this conflict, but the one things you can't say is that the Palistineans want peace. Their actions prove otherwise.


From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 April 2004 01:47 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are very angry aren't you? I can understand why. Most racists are as they have to reconcile their stated beliefs of equality and freedom with their practice of repression. Oh, well ...

quote:

How have the Palestinians recognized Israels right to exist?


How have they not?

quote:

By printing textbooks that show palestine to be the entire state of Israel?


Do not Israeli settlers claim all everything to the Jordan river as Israel's? If land claims are the basis of recognition, than Israel is every bit as guilty as Palestinians.
quote:

By suporting groups like Hamas whose charter calls for the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of jews?


Did not Israelis vote for Sharon who promised an "iron fist" and is responsible for massive Palestinians deaths not to mention at least two massacres? Do not Israeli vote for politicians who call for ethnic cleansing "transfer" of Palestinians? Is not Israel currently building a wall to construct a massive concentration camp in the West Bank while converting Gaza into such a camp? Israelis are as guilty of genocide as any suicide bomber.
quote:

By supporting 3 wars against Israel?


Did Israel not just support the illegal war against Iraq? Does Israel not call for war against Syria and Iran? Did Israel not invade Lebanon? Israel ethnically cleansed Arabs from their homes. Before this, what did Arabs do to Jews to deserve such hatred?
quote:

By dancing in the street after 9-11 and when Saddam shot scuds at israel during gulf war one?


So would have you.
quote:

By Arafat making statemnets in Arabaic calling the peace treaty stage one of the plan to eliminate israel?


Ah, double-talk. Like Sharon claiming peace while planning the mirder of Palestinians and expanding the theft of land and resources. How blind and or stupid are you?
quote:

By glorifying and nameing streets after suicide bombers?


Israel has elected terrorists as Prime Minister manby times includingf the Butcher Sharon. And I am willing to bet there is more than one street named after Israeli terrorists who murdered innocent Palestinians.
quote:

By supporting suicide bombing by a huge margin in poll after poll?


And Israel supports the cold-blooded murderous policies of Sharon and the Likud and the bloody, extremist settlers in poll after poll.
quote:

By killing their own people in cold blood who sell land to Jews?


Did Jews not kill collaborators in the Second World War? I believe they did.

Maybe if you removed your racist perspective of the world you woudl recognize Palestinians are behaving just as Jews would, as anyone would, under similar brutal circumstances.

Now return to your racist denial and pretend you are somehow supefrior because you support a repressive regime that fires bullets at children throwing stones.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 14 April 2004 02:01 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The big lie, WingNut ... even you have fallen for it.
From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 April 2004 02:06 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe we both have. But I don't support violence, Palestinian, Israeli, American or otherwise, nor do I support race or religious based states of any kind. So I suppose the big lie I have fallen for is the one about peace, justice and equality. What about you?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
scribblet
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posted 14 April 2004 02:51 PM      Profile for scribblet        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Perhaps if Israel showed a propensity for peace, eh?

But, you know, Palestinians have recognized Israel's right to exist. .


They have never recognized Israel's right to exist. Over and over again their statements reflect thee absence of willingness by Arafat and the PA to recognize that right. Not to mention the PA's aspiration to establish "one homeland" belonging to "one people" on Palestine soil with Jerusalem as its capital.

Arafat refused to sign documents at Camp David that would have met the great majority of his demands, including half of Jerusalem. Why - because he would have had to recognize Israel's right to exist.

Arafat quit often says that the Palestinian flag would fly over all the churches and mosques of Jerusalem – referring to the entire city.
In fact, the city of Jerusalem has never been the capital of an Arab state in the 1,400 years since the Quran was written, and is not directly mentioned in the Quran.

The only only thing that is really clear about the PLO and Arafat, is that the want Israel gone.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
DavidB-D
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posted 14 April 2004 03:15 PM      Profile for DavidB-D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So I suppose the big lie I have fallen for is the one about peace, justice and equality.

Which shows why the big lie is effective . . . it is aimed at the soft spot of good-hearted people.
You mentioned malnutrition. It's a grave concern. What the authors of the big lie are not telling you is the fact that, they support a US$300,000-per-month budget for Arafat's wife who lives in grand style in Paris. How many good-hearted people, in Canada or on these boards, earn that kind of money per month? Per year? How much nutrition can be bought, for the impoverished Palestinians, for that kind of money?
I suggest to you that the root cause of Palestinian misery is not Israel. It's the corruption of Arafat and his minions who have been shafting the Palestinians ever since the PLO was formed.

From: ON | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 14 April 2004 03:32 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What about the Sharon family?

Seems they may be getting their money in an even more illegal manner than the Arafat family.

What either case has to do with the general population of Israel or Palistine eludes me.

Is this just another atempt at vilifying all Palestinians via an Arafat proxy?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 14 April 2004 03:36 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ahhh Wingnut, in true lefty fashion..call someone a racist/sexist/misoginist etc if you don't agree with them. Ok, lets see how your arguments hold up:

Wingnut said: Do not Israeli settlers claim all everything to the Jordan river as Israel's? If land claims are the basis of recognition, than Israel is every bit as guilty as Palestinians.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Some religous fanatics may make claims like this, but it is not indoctrined into children through the school system like in the PA areas .
SCORE O 1
WINGNUT 0

QUOTE: Did not Israelis vote for Sharon who promised an "iron fist" and is responsible for massive Palestinians deaths not to mention at least two massacres? Do not Israeli vote for politicians who call for ethnic cleansing "transfer" of Palestinians? Is not Israel currently building a wall to construct a massive concentration camp in the West Bank while converting Gaza into such a camp? Israelis are as guilty of genocide as any suicide bomber.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Even f they did vote for Sharon as a response to Palistinean violence, they can just as easily vote him out of power. And a defensive wall is now a concentration camp? Where are the ovens and the gas chambers? Save the loaded terms for the morons who are impressed with that kind of talk

SCORE O 2
WINGNUT 0


--------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE: Did Israel not just support the illegal war against Iraq? Does Israel not call for war against Syria and Iran? Did Israel not invade Lebanon? Israel ethnically cleansed Arabs from their homes. Before this, what did Arabs do to Jews to deserve such hatred?
---------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, the UN authorized the US to use force if Saddam didn't come clean about his WMDs...it seems that Saddamm bluffed and lost. And yes Israel invaded Lebanon, as a response to cross border shelling and the fact that Lebanon was a terrorist hotbed.

SCORE: O 3
WINGNUT 0
Quote:So would have you.

So you have footage of Jews or Americans dancing in the streets when Iraq was defeated? when Yassin was put to sleep? when Arafats compund was destroyed...again maybe on "fantasyland tv" but not in the real world.

SCORe..ahh i cant keep track anymore


QUOTE" Ah, double-talk. Like Sharon claiming peace while planning the mirder of Palestinians and expanding the theft of land and resources. How blind and or stupid are you?
---------------------------------------------------------------

If Israel is one of the strongest army in the world and Sharon is so bloodthirsty, why isn't Israel in ALL of the west bank and Gaza? They cetrainly have the means to do so..but obviously not the will.


Anyways thats all I will say for now...it's like shooting fish in a barrel. And if you truly are for peace and non violence you would be against both sides, not just Israel.


From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 April 2004 04:33 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought that was your style, o. Someone expresses an opinion and you call them an antisemite.

Anyway, I will forego your childish arguments and deal with only the last one. Being racist and blind you probably missed that the entire West Bank and Gaza is occupied by Israel.

Yes, they promise to witdraw (but only parts) and to leave nothing behind.

They want neither a state for Palestinians nor citizenship. Any good white supremacist would be proud of Israel's achievements.

And the big lie, David B? You have fallen for it haven't you?

Israel controls the West Bank and Gaza and has the power to ensure all children recieve proper nutrition. They do just the opposite preventing aid, food and medicine from reaching victims of Israeli oppression.

And then you try to shift blame with red herring. Shame.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 April 2004 04:36 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
They have never recognized Israel's right to exist.
You guys are so blinded by your own hate you can't even read newspapers.

First, negotiation with Israel is defacto recognition. Has Israel recognized the Palestinian right to a viable state?

And:


quote:
The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.


Src: http://www.israel.org/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00pz0

Drop your hate mogering long enough to buy a newspaper will ya?

And what does that say about every other piece of propaganda you believe in? More lies.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 14 April 2004 04:50 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Learn to read Wingnut..I never called you an anti-semite..just a lefty..are they one and the same in your opinion? As a matter of fact I have stated many times that I don't believe that the posters here are anti-semites, just wrong in their views. You are the one that is calling everyone a racist.

Ok, so lets address your last argument..that all of Gaza and the west bank are occupied. But if Sharon is so bloodthirsty, and such a butcher, why are there still arabs left in the west bank and gaza? there certainly aren't jews left in Arab countries..why hasn't "Sharon the Butcher"finished the job you claim he is so eager to do? Israel definately has the military might to do so. Could it be that Israel is not trying to exterminate the Palestinians? Just defend themselves from a brutal campaign of terror?


From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 14 April 2004 05:00 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ok, so lets address your last argument..that all of Gaza and the west bank are occupied. But if Sharon is so bloodthirsty, and such a butcher, why are there still arabs left in the west bank and gaza? there certainly aren't jews left in Arab countries..why hasn't "Sharon the Butcher"finished the job you claim he is so eager to do? Israel definately has the military might to do so. Could it be that Israel is not trying to exterminate the Palestinians? Just defend themselves from a brutal campaign of terror?

Because it's doubtful even Sharon would get away with a wholesale massacre (though it could be argued that's exactly what's going on now, I suppose). But there's more than one way to skin a cat, and more than one way to ethnically cleanse a population. I'd say armed occupation, expropriation of land and resources, denial of basic services and rights is pretty much the next best thing to outright slaughter.. After all, why waste bullets when you can slowly suffocate them?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 April 2004 05:12 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Learn to read Wingnut..I never called you an anti-semite..just a lefty..are they one and the same in your opinion? As a matter of fact I have stated many times that I don't believe that the posters here are anti-semites, just wrong in their views. You are the one that is calling everyone a racist.

Oh, I'm sorry. But every Israeli extremist on the planet is equating be left with being antisemitic. I just assumed you were too. And, sorry, again. If you supported Apartheid, I would assume you were racist. On what other grounds can you support it.

And listen to your own words. You support the occupation and humiliation of all Palestinians despite only a minority have ever attacked Israel.

Finally, Sharon has made it clear time and agian his goal is to subjugate Palestinians through brutal repression until they give up and leave on thier own. Ethnic cleansing through force of arms or slow strangulation is the same thing.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
scribblet
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posted 14 April 2004 05:21 PM      Profile for scribblet        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Drop your hate mogering long enough to buy a newspaper will ya?


Since when does disagreeing with you or other anti- Israel views translate into hate, just as being anti Israel doesn't necessarily translate into anti semitism. I could say the same about many of the posts here on Israel and Sharon.

Arafat has never been a peace partner. Any truce he ever signed has had little durability.
I believe it was Arafat who began the second intifada against Israel, and contues to this day to launch suicide attacks against Israeli civilians, usually known as terrorism.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 April 2004 06:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
They have never recognized Israel's right to exist. Over and over again their statements reflect thee absence of willingness by Arafat and the PA to recognize that right.

Bollocks.

Israel-PLO Recognition

quote:
In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.

THe PLO also renounces violence in the same letter. The ammendments to the PNC charter were prepared and are ready for revision, upon the conclusion of a final peace treaty. Sharon announced before he was elected that he would not consider any agreemnet signed by Barak as binding.

And as for Palestinian maps being an example of non-recognition. We should then agree that this Israeli map also contrvenes Oslo -- look it even includes Golan!

From the official North American tourism web-site for Israel: GoIsrael


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 April 2004 06:30 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Arafat has never been a peace partner. Any truce he ever signed has had little durability.

Well, tell you what, you demonstrate to me where Israel has met its one and only important obligation under any agreement which was to cease settelment activity?

And when you have done that, show me the language that Sharon uses to describe Arafat and Palestinians and explain to me where the peace is hidden?

I never said Arafat wanted peace. But it doesn't matter. Because Sharon has demosntrated over and over gain not only does he not want peace he prefers violence.

It is Sharon who gave you this intifadah and it is Sharon who threatens the survival of Israel. He is big and fat with the blood of his victims and George W. Bush, sending Americans on a convewyor belt to death, is too stupid to say "no."

Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims throughout the world should view today's developments as a clear lesson that they are to be sacrificed at the earliest convencience even if it means a future of life in a concentration camp.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 April 2004 06:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Arafat has never been a peace partner. Any truce he ever signed has had little durability. [i}I believe it was Arafat who began the second intifada against Israel... [/i]

I believe you believe that. Now Prove it.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 14 April 2004 06:49 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By being alligned with fatah which carries out suicide attacks..by promising "a million martyrs to jerusalem" by nt offerign a counter offer at camp david and launching the new intifada.
From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
scribblet
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posted 14 April 2004 06:55 PM      Profile for scribblet        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

I believe you believe that. Now Prove it.



http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief3-6.htm

Orders for Terrorist Attacks Come from Arafat's headquarters.
Arafat actually commands the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which leads in shooting incidents and bombing attacks against Israeli civilians.
As the mastermind of the second Palestinian intifada of September 2000, according to Palestinian sources, his influence over the scope and timing of the violence is extensive and even decisive.

Course, you won't believe it cos its from Israel.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 April 2004 07:03 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
By being alligned with fatah which carries out suicide attacks..by promising "a million martyrs to jerusalem" by nt offerign a counter offer at camp david and launching the new intifada.

Sorry O, Palestinians continued negoitiations with the Barak goverment at Taba. You can't just selectively snip little bits out of history, like that.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 April 2004 07:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Arafat actually commands the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which leads in shooting incidents and bombing attacks against Israeli civilians.

Even if this were true, it it irrelevant as who started the Intifada, as Al-Aksa did not begin operations until 6 months after the Intifada started.

[ 14 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 14 April 2004 07:44 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Kind of typical. I notice first the claim that the Palestinians have never recognized Israel's right to exist. Then people post the official declaration by the PLO of Israel's right to exist.

So then we get the response, which basically comes down to "Oh, well, they might have said that but they were lying."
So . . . what would the Palestinians and/or the PLO have to say or do before the pro-Israel camp admitted that in fact they had recognized Israel's right to exist? Evidently just recognizing Israel's right to exist isn't enough.

Doubtless the answer will be something like, they don't *really* recognize Israel's right to exist until they stop fighting. This is BS.

Let's not forget that Israel's right to exist does not include Israel's right to own the occupied territories, nor does it include Israel's right to keep all the masses of property it stole from individuals, nor its right to exclude from citizenship people who were living there before the state of Israel came into being. Since Israel currently arrogates to itself all these rights, there's plenty basis for resistance by the victims even if they agree that Israel gets to exist. The question the resistance is based on is not "Does Israel have the right to exist?" but "Do Palestinians have rights--of any sort?"
If Israel would concede the latter and act on it, troubles would recede quickly.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 April 2004 08:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your web site tries to establish that Araft has control of al-Aksa, yet offers little to show in terms of direct quotations. Much is assrted, and much is based on documentation taken from Ramallah during the 2002 IDF raid there. Let us look at what is left out of those documents in the Israeli account:

Your Web Site:

quote:
On January 17, 2002, two and a half weeks later, a Palestinian killed six Israelis and wounded twenty-six at a bat-mitzvah party in Hadera, initiated and planned by one of those on Arafat's list – Mansur Saleh Sharim, who was already responsible for the deaths of at least three Israelis. Senior Fatah figures in Israeli custody, like Marwan Barghouti, admitted subsequently that Arafat approved funding for Fatah operatives with the knowledge that it would be used to finance terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.

(Of course we ask where is the Barghouti quote is, but that is no matter, as the site prefers to assert rather than to quote.)

What it does not say according to translations of the Arabic of documents unearthed by the IDF from Ramallah is that the person involved in this attack are idenitifed by Fatah as "a previous operative of ours."

quote:
Just 17 days earlier, another intelligence report from Tulkarem, this time written on unheaded notepaper and unsigned, informs Mr Arafat's men that the al-Aqsa Brigades in the city are planning "an operation inside Israel". The brigade's modus operandi, says the document, includes offering suspected Israeli collaborators forgiveness if they kill Jewish settlers or Israeli soldiers or intelligence officers. The forthcoming "operation" had been planned, the report states, by Ghanem Ghanem of Force 17, Hani Abu Laimoon, "a previous operative of ours", and an unnamed man who is referred to as a "drug dealer". The same group, the document notes, had previously arranged the attack on a banqueting hall in the northern Israeli city of Hadera. It does not mention the results of that attack: six Israeli civilians dead and another 35 wounded.

Other infomration has also been left out, apparenlty to paint a very bleak picutre of Fatah commitment to the peace process accordiing to Fisk:

quote:
The story of how a 17-year-old schoolboy could involve himself in Islamic Jihad and head off after classes to try to destroy an Israeli tank casts a revealing light on the militancy of Palestinian youth.

The Israeli account deleted all reference to the role played by the Palestinian Authority in foiling the attack on the Israelis. The full text shows clearly that Mr Arafat's men did just what the Israelis would wish: they stopped the attack and persuaded the boy to change sides.


Also, Fisk notes that the various payments made to Fatah members who committed attacks against Israelis, were all made before the attacks were carried out. In other words they were not payed as a reward for their activities. There is no evidence to show that persons knowingly involved in attacks continued on the payroll after their intentions became clear.

Mr. Fisk's assesment of the whole body of the evidence taken from Ramallah is not that Arafat is in control, but that he is out of control.

quote:
But in some cases, translations of Palestinian documents allegedly seized by Israeli troops in the West Bank have been doctored to "prove" Arafat's responsibility for anti-Israeli attacks. At least one "translation" of a Palestinian document posted on the Israeli army's website is a palpable falsehood.

In reality the documents portray Mr Arafat's military impotence. The papers the Israeli intelligence service have so far produced – assuming that most of them are genuine – paint a vivid, pathetic picture of his loss of power within the Palestinian community over the past 12 months, the suborning of his lieutenants and the gradual recruitment of his men by Hamas and Islamic Jihad opponents.


Selcted qotes from Robert Fisk, from Israel's "Book of Terror" purporting to show Arafat's role in suicide attacks is 'riddled with omissions and falsehoods' Link does no go to article directly, you must look around. Sorry.

As for my own take on the JERUSALEM ISSUE BRIEF, and it selective use of source material I will make the following note about this:

quote:
While some draw a distinction between Yasser Arafat's Fatah organization and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Palestinians refute such assertions. The leader of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades in Tulkarm told USA Today in March 2002: "The truth is, we are Fatah, but we didn't operate under the name of Fatah....We are the armed wing of the organization. We receive our instructions from Fatah. Our commander is Yasser Arafat himself."

I remember reading this article, (its too bad there is no link to it or the full text) and I remember that this guy was trying to explain that Al-Aksa members were still members of Fatah and loyal to Fatah, and that in that regard Yasser Arafat was the "óur commander and chief." He was not saaing that that Al-Aksa was commanded by Arafat, actually he was saying the opposite. As I remember it he was trying to cut with the thin edge of the knive, the idea that he was still loyal to Fatah, even though he was acting against Fatah policy.

Notice there is a piece snipped out of the middle of the quote? Gotta wonder what was in there, huh?

[ 14 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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