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Author Topic: Anti-Semitism and Responsibility
Macabee
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posted 09 April 2004 02:53 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is an instructive editorial on anti-Semitism and responsibility in today's Ha'aretz. It bears reading and thought.

quote:
The tight link between the demise of the peace process and the escalation of violence in the territories on the one hand, and the increase of anti-Semitic incidents in the Diaspora on the other, forces decision-makers in Israel to consider the consequences of their policies for Jews overseas. They must remember that the state of Israel was founded as a sanctuary for Jews, and not as a source of inspiration for new forms of anti-Semitism.

Anti-Semitism and Responsibility


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 09 April 2004 03:23 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
This is an instructive editorial on anti-Semitism and responsibility in today's Ha'aretz. It bears reading and thought.

The editorial seems to identify Muslims and those on the "far left" as the likely cause of anti-Semitism outside of Israel. It even goes into the "explanation for displays of hatred by Muslim communities toward Jewish ones". This is really the bulk of the article.

The quoted paragraph, while drawing attention of Israeli law-makers to the consequences of their policies, hardly represents the general subject-matter and tone of the editorial. The posting seems a tad disingenuous. I hope Ha'aretz doesn't represent the best the Israeli left can produce...

[ 09 April 2004: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


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WingNut
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posted 09 April 2004 03:27 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah I read that too. Why would it be okay to blame "muslims" and the "far left" but antisemitic to blame "Jews" and the "neo-cons?"
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 April 2004 03:54 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The "far left" comes up here, in reference to the European past:

quote:
Haaretz's Passover Eve supplement analyzed in-depth the new phenomenon of Muslim anti-Semitism, which differs in essence from "classic" European anti-Semitism, whose roots were in far left radicalism.

I had to read that several times to be sure that it says what I thought it said.

And then, in memory, I began to run through images of the European anti-Semites I have read, read about, or occasionally met. Drowsy British aristocrats and gassy Colonel Blimps have just never struck me as all that left. Celine? The Vichy officer class? Hitler ... Ah, yes. I got to Germany, and I stopped. I remembered the argument: Nazis = nationalist Commies. Ah, yes, that argument.

I first met that argument on babble coming from the keyboard of Archimedes2000, who would go on to distinguish himself as the first Holocaust denier to turn up on babble. (There have only been three, if I recall rightly.)

Either someone explains to me what Ha'aretz is claiming there, or I will be forced to conclude that Ha'aretz is peddling the same intellectual garbage that Archie was.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 09 April 2004 04:13 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It strikes me as a bit odd that anti-semitism should be attributed to leftists, as "blood and soil" nationalism which usually included a good dose of xenophobia was common among the right wing, and still is.

Besides, trashing Muslims and assuming they all take their orders from "above", whatever that "above" may be, is a very lousy logical fallacy, because it attributes to an entire group what is probably characteristic of only some individuals. Yes, there may well be some Muslims or Arabs who stay in contact with each other and who have decided to use the recent execution in Israel as their "cause" for attacks on synagogues here, but it is highly unlikely that a majority of such people want to do this.

It is further to be noted that it was once alleged that Jews took their orders from a shadowy controlling group, and that Catholics got theirs from the Vatican.

We, of course, today, realize that such attitudes are ridiculous and rightly consigned to the same realm as the flat-earthers - that is, oblivion.

[ 09 April 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 09 April 2004 04:17 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, Elizabeth the Second, Queen during the expulsion of Jews from England (or, one of the expulsions) was also known for trying to end the Monarchy; socialized leechcraft and a national day care system. So, here we have a European left wing anti-semite.

Also, we have Catherine and Ferdinand, those of the Inquisition that saw thousands of Jews tortured, killed or fleeing for thier lives from Spain. And, look at their efforts to bring litteracy and sociallized medicine to the Aztecs.

Again, a great example of left wing anti-semitism.


Clearly, there are right wing Jews who are using the slander of anti-semitism, not against enemies of Jews, but percieved enemies of their own particular political orientation.

For them, I suggest they go hang our with their right wing buddy Mel Gibson.

I hear his movie is getting rave reviews East of the Jordan river these days.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 April 2004 04:39 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I admit I was troubled by the suggestion that all Muslims are some how connected to anti-Semitism in Europe. It is important to note that the report on European anti-Semitism does point to disaffected North African youth as being in the forefront of those charged with anti-Semitic incidents in France so I can undersatnd the basis to some extent.

Nonetheless I chose the last paragraph because it seemed to me to be the key . Whoever is feeling disaffected, Ha'aretz is saying that it is possible that some policy decisions by the Sharon government might be responsible. And yes Ha'aretz is a credible left wing voice in Israel that must be considered.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 April 2004 04:41 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Haaretz's Passover Eve supplement analyzed in-depth the new phenomenon of Muslim anti-Semitism, which differs in essence from "classic" European anti-Semitism, whose roots were in far left radicalism.

Weren't many of the earliest Zionist immigrants to Palestine, and the founders of the Kibbutzim, far-left radicals from Europe?

Some of today's Zionists seem to be making a concerted effort to alienate the world's left. Why?

Moreover, why aren't they trying to build bridges between Jews and Muslims instead of accusing 1/5 of the planet's population of being antisemites?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 April 2004 04:54 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The thing is, Macabee, the editorial is a very odd piece of writing. One thing does not often lead to another. Strange claims get made, but then suddenly there turns up, as you say, that interesting last paragraph.

I just didn't know what to make of it as a whole, although I agree, the last paragraph seems to point somewhere useful -- it just doesn't go far in that direction in very concrete terms.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 09 April 2004 04:59 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Nonetheless I chose the last paragraph because it seemed to me to be the key . Whoever is feeling disaffected, Ha'aretz is saying that it is possible that some policy decisions by the Sharon government might be responsible. And yes Ha'aretz is a credible left wing voice in Israel that must be considered.

Granted. As skdadl says, though, it seems to kind of have just been stuck on at the end.

The thing is, will recognition that the situation Sharon is in is of his own making lead to innovative and brilliant new methods of solving the problem, or will people continue to embody the definition of stupidity, which is doing the same thing multiple times and hoping that the result will be different than the one that keeps occurring?

It'd be like me whacking my head with a hammer and expecting it not to hurt and doing it several times just to see if it wouldn't hurt the next time I did it.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 09 April 2004 07:03 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have to tell you, I had other troubles with the article. Take this sentence:
quote:
For generations, violence toward Jews in the Diaspora has represented an accepted means of projecting feelings of frustration and resentment nursed by weak sectors of host societies, sectors which angrily observe the achievements of the Jewish minority.

Doesn't that feed two steretypes? One of the resentful peasant class and the other of the rich Jew?

From my understanding, whie Europe did indeed have many rich Jews there were just as many working class and poor Jews including those in the artistic classes who tended to be poor unless they had, -- I forget the word, but like a sponsor. They did not escape persecution any more than did their rich counterparts.

And I don't buy the last paragaraph either. Innocent Canadian Jews, or Jews elsewhere, are no more responsible for Israeli policy in the West Bank as are Canadian Presbyterians for July 12 marches in Northern Ireland or are Canadian Somlalis responsible for military aircraft strikes against Christian refugees or are Palestinian moslems for a suicide bombing in Tel Aviv.

People attack synagogues and mosques and symbols of religion and culture out of hate and not too bring about political change. Those who do seek political change through violent means choose political or military targets such as the group (I don't remember who they are) that killed, I think, a Turkish ambassador.

You certainly do not attack a school.

Finally, as many have pointed out, the same people who hate Jews also often hate moslems. I remember Hitler burned the Reichstag and framed communists. Did the far right forget this neat little trick?

[ 09 April 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 April 2004 07:11 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mr. Nut there is one problem with your analysis, while the ha'aretz piece may seem to reflect a stereotype, what the editorial says is just that, sterotypes feed hate and resentment. Classical European anti-Semitism was fed by classical anti-jewish stereotypes.

As for the more recent variety and the association with the extreme left, it seems to me that Ha'aretz was not at all pointing to the "left" in general but at its extremes. Sadly on the extremes there have always been haters be they on the right or left so why should we be surprised that Ha'aretz notes what many others have noted of late and that is the hate on the extremes.

Neither the right or the left is pristine when it comes to hatred from their extremes. To deny it exists is to deny reality on both sides of the politcal spectrum.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 09 April 2004 09:05 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Saying that classical anti-semitism derives from "far left extremism" is a historical absurdity - could it be a typo? Classical anti-semitism derives from and is the soulmate of "far-right extremism", be it the Black Hundreds in Czarist Russia, the Germanic theoreticians of "anti-semitism" and other forms of "scientific racism" or the right-wing Catholics involved in the Dreyfus affair in France.

The vast majority of acts ascribed to "new antisemitism" are a "dérive", as we say in French, the monster created by sentiments in solidarity with the Palestinians among disenfranchised Arab and/or Muslim communities in Western societies, above all in Western Europe, and wrongly and stupidly lashing out against their Jewish neighbours. These groups of people are not particulary "left-wing" in any meaningful sense, be it moderate or extreme. I would imagine more Arabs - and more Jews - vote for the Socialists in France, say, than for Chirac and certainly for the racist and anti-semitic far right, but a lot of these perpetrators are alienated youths who also prey on their own communities - and who are uninvolved in either the electoral process or in extraparliamentary campaigns.

There is a tiny fraction of far leftists or former far-leftists called the "rouges-bruns"; their most prominent spokesperson is the lawyer (Jacques Vergès, if I recall...) who defended Klaus Barbie in the famous trial in Lyon (everyone else on the left was supporting the survivors of Barbie's persecution) and is prepared to defend Saddam Hussein. He is a loose cannon and utterly discredited.

The best-known spokesperson for the Green Party in France is Daniel Cohn-Bendit, the person for whom the slogan "Nous sommes tous des juifs allemands".

The largest far-left group in France, that received a huge popular vote in the first round of the last Presidential elections is the LCR (Ligue communiste révolutionnaire), a group historically so "Jewish" in its leadership that the joke went, the only reason its Central Committee meetings weren't held in Yiddish was that Daniel Bensaïd was Sephardic.

And of course in North America there is everyone from the renowned linguist and anarchist Noam Chomsky to Naomi Klein and our own Auntie ...

But I suppose all of those people are just self-hating Jews, as Rosa Luxemburg and so many others were a long time ago. And their goyishe friends are wannabee self-hating Jews...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 April 2004 09:18 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 09 April 2004 09:26 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mr. Nut there is one problem with your analysis, while the ha'aretz piece may seem to reflect a stereotype, what the editorial says is just that, sterotypes feed hate and resentment. Classical European anti-Semitism was fed by classical anti-jewish stereotypes.
So then why reflect any?

Fir the record, I did not actually "deny" anything in my posts.

As for the rest, I will just fall into line behind Lagatta.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 09 April 2004 11:22 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And of course in North America there is everyone from the renowned linguist and anarchist Noam Chomsky to Naomi Klein and our own Auntie ...

But I suppose all of those people are just self-hating Jews, as Rosa Luxemburg and so many others were a long time ago. And their goyishe friends are wannabee self-hating Jews...


I would be loath to describe Klein and Chomsky as "far left" no?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 April 2004 12:25 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That would be for you, not us, to say.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 April 2004 01:39 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I really don't know how many times it has to be repeated that anyone who does not believe in the essential equality of all persons is not on the left.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 10 April 2004 02:30 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Amen, brother.
From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 11 April 2004 09:55 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I really don't know how many times it has to be repeated that anyone who does not believe in the essential equality of all persons is not on the left.
Almost every social democrat from the middle to the left , from pink conservative to Liberal believes that they believe in the "essential equality of all persons". The Left does not hold sacred ground here in their belief and for some the hyocricy of their belief . The same can be said for many others as well. In other words the Left is not some Utopia that is ruled by a benevolant gate-keeper who has some omniscient power to decide who believes what!!

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 April 2004 10:28 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From quoting an article that asserts that Muslims and the "far left" are responsible for anti-Semitic incidents outside of Israel ...to lecturing babblers that we don't have a monopoly on a belief in equality...oops, I meant that we don't have a monopoly on our belief that we believe in equality...

Perhaps babblers are now responsible for anti-Semitic incidents outside of Israel? Wait a minute! Wasn't that the premise of the article in Ha'aretz? I think I shall self-criticize myself for believing that I believe that I once read an article in .Ha'aretz.

Very cogent and trenchant analysis, Macabee. I feel very...instructed. Thanks very much.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 11 April 2004 03:40 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Very cogent and trenchant analysis, Macabee. I feel very...instructed.

That's his job.

He shows us some wax and string and tells us it's candlelight.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 11 April 2004 03:50 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Hey everybody...Rex Murphy's doing Are the politics of the day fuelling a rise in anti-Semitism? on Cross-Country Check up this aft. at 4:00. I'll be too busy drinking and cooking at that time to participate, but I might have a listen. You never know WHO just might call.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 April 2004 03:56 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why am I not surprised ... that you would say that, Hinterland?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 11 April 2004 05:18 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the heads up. You can also listen here.

Anti-semitism is the longest hatred? I thought misogyny was. Not that it really matters to this argument since the argument isn't about what hatred has been around the longest, but whether criticizing Israel equals anti-semitism.

According to this current caller, it does: "Anti-semitism is the exclusive domain of the radical, secular left and of Islam, and these groups have to understand that."

You stupid fuckhead. In other words, "Hey, don't generalize about us Jews, you stupid Muslims! You racist leftists!"

Also, apparently it's okay for any Muslim to be asked to condemn every bad act by other Muslims on behalf of the Muslim community on demand. (After all, we know all those Muslims are responsible for everything each individual Muslim does!) And apparently it's not enough to say "I abhor all terrorism". He says that once when he asked a Muslim leader whether he condemns suicide bombing, and the leader said, "I abhor all terrorism," that wasn't enough. No, according to this dude, that's being moderate on suicide bombing. Apparently, in order to be a good person, you have to condemn each specific person on this fellow's demand, say that they're going to hell (I'm serious, that's what this guy is saying), and that they are irredeemably evil.

And oh lovely, the call just ended, and the idiot was back-introduced as a rabbi from Montreal, too. He probably spreads this utter bullshit within his congregation.

[ 11 April 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 11 April 2004 05:22 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Stupid fuckhead" exactly . . . what an asshole . . . all this is, is an attempt to vilify all critism of Israel!
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 11 April 2004 05:27 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know, No Yards. I shouldn't even listen to this. I'm already swearing out loud at the radio. I'm just hoping there will be some reasonable callers who will call that asshole what he is. A racist jerk.

Ha. Murphy let that entire 10-minute call full of generalizations about Muslims go, just saying "Mmm-hmm, yes, okay", meanwhile, when someone calls in saying that people who criticize Israel legitimately are accused of anti-semitism, Murphy keeps interrupting him and saying that he's "generalizing". I guess it's only okay to generalize when you're demonizing Muslims.

[ 11 April 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 11 April 2004 05:55 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
According to this current caller, it does: "Anti-semitism is the exclusive domain of the radical, secular left and of Islam, and these groups have to understand that."

Are these clowns TRYING to create antisemitism among the left?

Why else the incessant baiting?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 11 April 2004 06:03 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know. I had to turn it off. It's too beautiful a Sunday afternoon for that. I don't want to spoil the good feelings from spending the early afternoon basking in the sunny weather outside. Why swear at the radio when you can read a book in the sun on the balcony, or cook something delicious for supper?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 11 April 2004 06:07 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As I said before, those who equalte any critism of Israel with anti-Semitism are really telling the fringe elements that "anti-Semitism" is a majority view, thus giving the fringe elements a sense of fitting into the mainstream.

The left is always very careful to define exactly what they are talking about . . . Jew, Israel, Zionism, etc . . . it's the ignorant right wingers that are lumping everything all together confusing the legitimate critism of Israel with anti-Semitism.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 April 2004 07:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, this Rex Murphy guy is completely biased. He should be fired.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 April 2004 07:05 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Listening to the radio was useful even if some of it was ...just awful.

I've made some notes that I want to organize and present. Is this the correct thread or should we start another?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 11 April 2004 07:22 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd probably start another,and depending upon the issue it might go under Media rather than the Middle East.
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 April 2004 07:34 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, you should start another thread, the article that began this thread has had its day.

Other than its one good point at the end, it was unfortuante that it also parlayed to the neo-conservative attack on the left as anti-semitic. It makes me wonder how long Jews are going to allow the charge of anti-semetism to be used as tool of the ultra-right to attack the left?

Very odd, in that it was the ultra-right that first invented anti-semetism, and used it as means to attack the left and Jews collectively, by attacking the left as part of the Jewish conspiracy of Bolshevism.

[ 11 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 11 April 2004 07:55 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Never underestimate the depth of a memory hole.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 11 April 2004 08:04 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not very nice in Montréal, but I forced myself to go out for a bicycle ride to get some exercise and fresh air.

I'm very intrigued in the origins of this "left" or undefined "far-left" as anti-semitic. It is not a very old line, does it come from formerly leftist neo-cons, or whom?

Since there isn't any concrete way of proving one is "not" anti-semitic, "deep down in the cockles of one's heart"....


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 11 April 2004 08:06 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have started a new thread over here.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 12 April 2004 08:08 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Since there isn't any concrete way of proving one is "not" anti-semitic, "deep down in the cockles of one's heart"....

...particularly when held to the standard of 'if you should miss deploring but one incident that *I* consider antiSemitic, then you're an anti-Semite for all time'.

But that *I* wouldn't be anyone we know, would it?


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 12 April 2004 08:34 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:

...particularly when held to the standard of 'if you should miss deploring but one incident that *I* consider antiSemitic, then you're an anti-Semite for all time'.

But that *I* wouldn't be anyone we know, would it?


Please provide proof of such a ludicrous statement

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 April 2004 08:54 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, the rabbi I mentioned that phoned into Cross Country Checkup said almost exactly that. See my comments above.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 12 April 2004 09:33 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I heard the first half-hour of the show, and the rabbi (whose name I couldn't catch -- sorry) was an invited guest who opened the show -- he didn't phone in.

Michelle's account of his position on ritual denunciation is correct -- he was charging that anyone who did not perform denunciations precisely when he did and in his terms was an anti-semite.

He also spoke to one side only on the topic of introducing "foreign" views into debates in Canada. Guess who was accused of doing that? He demanded that all Canadians denounce those who try to import foreign tensions here, but that denunciation clearly didn't extend to those who invite inflammatory speakers such as, eg, Benjamin Netanyahu or Nathan Sharansky.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 12 April 2004 10:38 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While I appreciate your analysis of CCC and what the Rabbi may have said, as I stated in another thread I prefer to make my own judgements based on my hearing the proceedings.

As mentioned in the other thread, people will interpret through their own filters. If someone could provide a link to a transcript or recording of the segment in question I would be pleased to listen and give an opinion.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 12 April 2004 10:57 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
anyone who did not perform denunciations precisely when he did and in his terms was an anti-semite.

I should make that last part of the clause more precise.

The rabbi was talking about who was a "moderate" and who was "immoderate" on the topic of anti-semitism. So he didn't end up saying that the Muslim representative was an anti-semite; he ended up saying that the man was not a moderate at all and was refusing to denounce anti-semitism, which thereby meant he was contributing to its flourishing.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 12 April 2004 12:51 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
While I appreciate your analysis of CCC and what the Rabbi may have said, as I stated in another thread I prefer to make my own judgements based on my hearing the proceedings.

You won't post any more second-hand editorials pontificating on why the left is so nasty? That's going to free up a lot of time for you. Do you have any plans? Spring is coming, maybe a nice road trip is in order.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 12 April 2004 02:46 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Te he he.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 12 April 2004 03:01 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sarcasmobri:

You won't post any more second-hand editorials pontificating on why the left is so nasty? That's going to free up a lot of time for you. Do you have any plans? Spring is coming, maybe a nice road trip is in order.


You're kidding right? An editorial is an original source. I have never posted personal thoughts or my analysis of what was written in an editorial and demanded reaction as has been asked of me here.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 12 April 2004 03:12 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not even as Mishei or maybe Lakesh?
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
o
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Babbler # 4435

posted 12 April 2004 03:31 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dont even bother Maccabee-these guys believe what they want..
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Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 12 April 2004 03:34 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sockpuppetry of the "Caught Red-handed"? Hmmm? Or just a kiss ass.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 12 April 2004 04:11 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
Not even as Mishei or maybe Lakesh?


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 12 April 2004 04:20 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are people here saying that there are people who use multiple identities? And that even previously banned persons take on new identities?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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Babbler # 4169

posted 12 April 2004 04:25 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yep, that's about it . . . except Mishei was not "banned" (s)he was suspended.

[ 12 April 2004: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 April 2004 04:28 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, we don't need to call him names.

I suspect as well that Macabee is Mishei, but I can't be sure. However...Mishei was not banned, he was suspended and his suspension was over a while ago, so it's not like Macabee is a banned babbler trying to get around his banning. Also, if it is the same person, it's not like he's using both accounts at the same time and agreeing with himself in the same threads.

So it's out in the open now, we suspect Mishei is Macabee, now Macabee knows we think so, it's really not a violation of the spirit of babble rules anyhow, and we'll never know for sure whether we're right unless Macabee admits it directly, so I guess we might as well move on.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 12 April 2004 04:31 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Didn't he technically admit it in this thread:

He certainly doesn't deny it.

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Does that mean you'll stop calling us "demonic" then, Mishei?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why must you lie? I have never called anyone here "demonic". I have never personalized any argument here. On the other hand on this very thread I have been referred to as a "devil". Nary a word of protest from other Babblers.



From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 12 April 2004 04:52 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, not really. He didn't acknowledge it one way or the other.

In any case, he's not really doing anything wrong even if he is Mishei, so I'm just going to let it go at that.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 12 April 2004 05:30 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then why doesn't he just clear it up one way or the other? Is he or isn't he Mishei, is the style just conincidental similar?

As for it not being "wrong", perhaps not but a new handle brings a new freedom to make us run laps again and to leave behind any less than perfect past behavior and certainly doesn't seem right either, now does it.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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Babbler # 3807

posted 12 April 2004 05:32 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm comfortable with calling him Mishei, as it's the name we've become used to.

You know, better the devil you know...


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 12 April 2004 05:37 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Come on, al-Q. That's not necessary (the devil comment). Must you?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 12 April 2004 05:39 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
I'm comfortable with calling him Mishei, as it's the name we've become used to.

You know, better the devil you know...


Just dont call me late for dinner.

Seriously, I will resopond to the best of my ability to questions put to me. Questions put to anyone else, fictitious or otherwise, will have to be answered by them. I think that's fair.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 12 April 2004 05:40 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
... a new handle brings a new freedom to make us run laps again

Only if you let it. Just sayin'.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 12 April 2004 05:46 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Must you?

Not a good time to quote Geraldine Jones, ("J-O-N-E-S Jones, Honey!") I take it?

[ 12 April 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 12 April 2004 06:10 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's it. I'm changing my handle to Satirical George.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged

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