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Author Topic: Israeli envoy calls British Left anti-Semitic
The_Calling
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posted 04 April 2004 01:48 AM      Profile for The_Calling   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The outgoing Israeli ambassador to Britain has launched a stinging attack on the British Left, accusing it of tolerating and, in some cases, encouraging anti-Semitism.
The comments are likely to spark new controversy after a week in which the Israeli government accused British media based in Jerusalem of anti-Semitism and the European Union published a report showing a significant increase in verbal and physical attacks on Jews across the continent.

In his only interview before leaving the UK after more than three years here, Zvi Shtauber, a former soldier and university vice-president, said that he had loved living in such a 'tolerant' country but had been profoundly shocked by the anti-Jewish sentiments expressed by some left-wing politicians and activists and the lack of reaction to them.

Full article (UK Observer)

-------------------------------------------------

Calling people that are pro-justice and dare to criticize Israel anti-Semitic cheapens real instances of anti-Semitism. This campaign by Israel and its right-wing allies in the USA to smear pro-Palestinian Europe and the pro-Palestinian left (even in the USA the true left is pro-Palestinian) is disgraceful.

[ 04 April 2004: Message edited by: The_Calling ]


From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 04 April 2004 04:50 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the anti-semtism label shouldn't be tossed around lightly either. But here is why I think many believe the left to be in some cases anti-semetic....On one side you have a country ( Israel) that pretty much lives up to the lefty dream..founded on socialistic practices, democratic, free press, fully liberated woman (woman serve in the army and Israel has had a female PM) equal treatment of gays, a vibrant culture of dissent with many left wing pundits and professors having their voices heard.

On the other hand, the Arab countries by and large represent everything the left hates...oppressed woman, ethnic discrimination ( jews sre not allowed to travel to saudi arabia etc. ), limited freedom of the press, largely undemocratic and run by dictators, brutal treatment of criminals and gays.

So knowing all that and taking into account all of the other conflicts in the world, why is Israel such a topic of debate to the extent that it is? I know Cueball will be here any second to state that it is the right that brings up Israel, but look at all the posts here in Babble..most were started by people who seem to lean left.

I mean the UN has criticized Israel more than ANY OTHER COUNTRY ON THIS PLANET!!

Are Israelis that bad? Not when you look at the behaviour of much worse regimes..hell Syria has been occupying Lebanon for years and not a peep of protest from the left.


From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2004 05:02 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
think the anti-semtism label shouldn't be tossed around lightly either. But here is why I think many believe the left to be in some cases anti-semetic....

Sorry asshole when I was a kid we didn't go around bashing in the heads of Jews with brass knuckles or paint nazi signs on their houses or firbomb their synagogues. When I was a kid we used to fight skinheads in the streets. So you can fuck off.

And never fucking forget that its was the communists and the SDP that fought the Nazi's while it was the conservative parties of the rich that were making deals with Hindenberg to get Hitler into the Reichstag. All to keep the SDP out of power.

Fuck you again.

The left has always fought on the principal of social equality for all. That includes Jews.

You are insulting the memory of all of those who have died on the left for the sake of that principal.

[ 04 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 04 April 2004 05:24 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hahahahaha...right on "cue" Cueball! So much anger, so much torment brewing inside your sorry, sorry soul. Why the foul language? Have I ever cursed you out? Believe me pal, I can insult with the best, but I choose to control myself when in the company of supposed adults. The F-word may still shock people in quaint little Vancouver, but here in Toronto? yawn.

The left at one point may have done everything you just said, and for that they should be commended. I don't think there are too many ant-semites here on babble which is also a good thing..but why all the attention to Israel? I mean just look at the posts here..you have one for "the rest of the world" and one for the middle east...and of the middle east posts, the majority are directed to the ONE TINY LITTLE COUNTRY that shares a majority of the lefts ideals. Sure, there is a temporary conflict going on, but it is miniscule compared to what is happening in sudan, north korea, etc. So where is the ISM for the North Koreans being interned in concentration camps as we speak? How come "peace activists" don't ride Israeli busses to show solidarity with the innocents that might be blown up? Where is the picketing of the Syrians to get out of Lebanon? Where is the boycott of academics from any other country other that israel?


From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2004 05:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hahahahaha...right on "cue" Cueball! So much anger, so much torment brewing inside your sorry, sorry soul. Why the foul language?

Because you have proven yourself to be a fair weather friend.

And despite all your talk, I doubt you have ever had your face smashed up by skinheasds, though you talk a lot of tough shit. Tough shit.

quote:
The left at one point may have done everything you just said, and for that they should be commended.

If someone does not support the principal of equality for all they are not on the 'left.' capiche? Sorry if my conception of equality for all includes Arabs. Tough shit.

And the little country of which you speak has denied the right of enfranchisment to a population of over 1.5 million Palestinians for over 35 years. Get it?

[ 04 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 04 April 2004 05:36 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow temper temper, If we are looking at the article itself,Zvi Shtauber, a well known Labourite and coming from the left himself is no dummy. He is an inteellectual whose carreer has been nothing but dignified.

In this paragraph:

quote:
Shtauber singled out Tam Dalyell, the veteran Labour MP, Jenny Tonge, the former Liberal Democrat spokeswoman on children, and the New Statesman magazine for criticism. Tonge was sacked from her party's front bench after suggesting that she might have resorted to violence had she been a Palestinian. Dalyell told Vanity Fair magazine that Tony Blair relied too much on Jewish advisers, and the New Statesman published a cover showing the Union Jack pierced by a Star of David to illustrate a story on the support for Israel among Jews in the UK.


He gives good examples.

Now Cue, I agree whole heartedly that socialists and the left in general fought the good fight against nazi and neo-nazi bastards. Sadly though thios does not absoleve the entire left from engaging now and then in anti-Semitism. I recall last year an article written by 3 luminaries of the left right here in canada including Jeff Rose who is still President Emeritus of CUPE. They carefully pointed out that certain individuals and segments of the left have crossed the line at times. Wow remember the shit-storrm that caused?

So I believe it is necessary yes even for the left to be introspective and at the very leasrt look at the language it uses as starters. Perhaps if the left began to engage in more civil debate at least beginning with supporting a negotiated two-state solution, well that might be a good start. Too many have negated the two-state solution to the denial of the legitimacy of a jewish state. many on the left and I would include such stalwarts as Rabbi Michael Lerner and Todd Gitlin in that group would see that solution as engaging in anti-Semitism. The intent of denying the Jewish people a sliover of land to support their national aspirations is in the 21st century seen by many as the new anti-Semitism.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2004 05:37 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sadly though thios does not absoleve the entire left from engaging now and then in anti-Semitism.


If someone does not support the principal of equality for all they are not on the 'left.'


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 04 April 2004 05:42 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If I never had my face smashed in it is because I am 6'2, 210 pounds of pure kosher beef! BOOYA!
From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2004 05:44 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Because you never got out of your arm chair, perhaps thats why your so heavy. And dearest, I outweigh you and i'm taller than you, and the last time I got my head opened up by Skinheads was four years ago at Lee's Palace, in Toronto (Yawn.)

Why is it me taking care of business in your back yard?

They operate in packs, just so you know. But enough of this shit chickenhawk. Next thread.

[ 04 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
o
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posted 04 April 2004 05:52 PM      Profile for o     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well if you are fighting skinheads, good for you. Seriously dude, you shouldn't get so emotional. I actually think you are one of the better debaters here, just for the wrong side...
From: toronto | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2004 05:55 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just don't pull that anti-semetism on the 'left' stuff, because if someone does not support the principal of equality for all they are not on the 'left.'

Its not just a debate, its a reality.

[ 04 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 04 April 2004 07:48 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball does equality for all include the Jewish people realizing their national aspirations in a Jewish state? In the same way as the Palestinian people must realize their national aspirations in a Palestinian state?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 04 April 2004 08:21 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The representative of an apartheid state accuses the critics of such a racist state as racists themselves for protesting racism? This is a typical Israeli red-herring. Forget it.

And Mac, a Palestinians state, if one was actually allowed to really exist, would not, one would hope, predicate rights, benefits and citizenship on the basis of religion.

I would suspect anyone who moved to Palestine, were it allowed to exist, could become a Palistinian the same way anyone who comes to Canada can become a Canadian.

Is that true of Israel? Can Palestinians ethinically cleansed return to Israel, reclaim their properties and live as full-fledged citizens?

[ 04 April 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


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Rufus Polson
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posted 04 April 2004 08:22 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by o:
but why all the attention to Israel?

We have a thread for that question, O never-posts-on-anything-but-Israel.
It's here.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 04 April 2004 08:34 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Cueball does equality for all include the Jewish people realizing their national aspirations in a Jewish state?

It cannot, because a Jewish state by definition must place limits on equality for all; it must make Jews more equal than non-Jews. So if the Jewish people realize their aspirations in that particular way, they are not including equality for all in those aspirations.
The Palestinian authority, limited and corrupt though it has been, does have that one difference--it is a secular state, not a religious one. So it is at least possible for it to involve equality for all. It's something of a pity that Israel backed the religiously-based Hamas in hopes of weakening the secular PLO.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
The_Calling
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posted 04 April 2004 08:44 PM      Profile for The_Calling   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel gets the most attention from the left because it gets 90% of media and political coverage of foreign conflicts. Everyone knows what is going on in Israel/Palestine; how many people know that Turkey destroyed over 3,000 Kurdish villages in the late 90's? Maybe Israel's supporters should ask the media to stop making each suicide bombing front page news in print and breaking news on television. Moreover, Israel is one of a few openly colonial states left. It is also the only apartheid state left in the world. In addition, it, unlike Turkey, China, or Syria, is reliant on American support for survival. The Israeli problem could be solved overnight if the USA pushed it to correct its policies. That cannot be done in the case of any other bad state. Israel is also expected to know better since it claims it is a liberal democracy but is a hypocrtical colonial, apartheid, and rogue state.

Why do you think South Africa was singled out? Was that because of anti-white racism?


From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 April 2004 09:18 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sadly though thios does not absoleve the entire left from engaging now and then in anti-Semitism.

Is this an example of trolling or of baiting?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2004 09:30 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Cueball does equality for all include the Jewish people realizing their national aspirations in a Jewish state? In the same way as the Palestinian people must realize their national aspirations in a Palestinian state?

If the Palestinian national aspiration were the expulsion and opression of Jews living in Tel Aviv I would oppose it. Just because this is the national aspiration of some Palestinians, does not mean that it is within their right of self-determination.

Jews wishing to live in lands traditionally occupied by Jews in past eras also must take into account aspirations and rights of those who happen to also occupy the land. Defending Israeli National aspiration that contravene estabilshed norms of conduct between peoples, on the basis that it is Jewish right to self determination, is to alike Hitler's call for recognizing the right of self determination of German people within lands that Germans tradtitionally occupied.

Are you saying that because German Jews had no traditional hisotrical presence in Germany that it was ok to exproriate their homes, expel them and kill them on the basis of the German right of self determination?

Remember the Germans lived in Germany long before the Jews showed up.

This flipant use of principals simply to justify one aspect or another of Israeli policy is intellectual fraud.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 04 April 2004 09:36 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As I thought. Thank you to those who answered the question. It is pretty clear to me where you stand on the left.

BTW all Israelis be they Jewish, Muslim, Christian , Bahai...are all equal citizens of the state of Israel wwith full voting rights and the right to run for Knesseth etc.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2004 09:39 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not 1.5 million Palestinians who have next to no rights and can not vote in land occupied for over 35 years. Make them citizens fine, let them go, fine. But don't try and justify this egregious assault of basic human rights through a bureaucratic loophole, like citizenship.

[ 04 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 04 April 2004 09:40 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If I recall correctly, though, they don't have the same property rights- Israeli Arabs apparently have a hard time buying land. Is this true?
From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 04 April 2004 09:50 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Given that it is the Middle East there are some designated areas for both Arabs and Jews. Now that said if memory serves me right this issue of land designation has been challenged to the Israeli Supreme Court and in fact it was ruled as illegal. But I will have to check for certain.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
The_Calling
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posted 04 April 2004 09:56 PM      Profile for The_Calling   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes it is true. In the apartheid state of Israel not only are Arabs second-class citizens, but so are all non-Jews. That obviously includes Christians, despite the love affair many Christians have with Israel. Non-Jews are not allowed to live on 94% of land in Israel.That is apartheid. There is a book about this issue called [I]Acess Denied: Palestinian Land Rights in Israel[/I.

As to political equality in Israel, top government officials in Israel were recently saying it was okay to kill Arab members of Parliament. I challenge pro-Israel people to find one democracy in the world where such a thing occurs. Moreover, how many Arab cabinet ministers has Israel had? How many non-Jewish cabinet ministers has it had?

quote:
Given that it is the Middle East there are some designated areas for both Arabs and Jews

That is called apartheid.

Where else in the Middle East do they have apartheid?

[ 04 April 2004: Message edited by: The_Calling ]


From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2004 10:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To get back to the topic at hand:

1) If someone does not support the principal of equality for all they are not on the 'left.'

2) If a person adheres to that principal of equality for all but are erroneous in their analysis of Israel, this does not mean they are racist it means that they are mistaken.

3) Trying to win arguements by smearing critiques as racist based on overemphasis, is only an admission that your arguments does not stand up to scrutiny.

Case closed.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The_Calling
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posted 04 April 2004 10:04 PM      Profile for The_Calling   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There are two other points I forgot to make. First, this conflict is occurring on "holy land" for Christians, Muslims, and Jews. That is one reason it gets more attention. Second, anti-Arab sentiment is far higher than anti-Jewish sentiment in the West. To say that nations are discriminating against Jews to help a group that they dislike more just doesn't make sense
From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 04 April 2004 10:08 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The_Calling:
Yes it is true. In the apartheid state of Israel not only are Arabs second-class citizens, but so are all non-Jews. That obviously includes Christians, despite the love affair many Christians have with Israel. Non-Jews are not allowed to live on 94% of land in Israel.That is apartheid. There is a book about this issue called [I]Acess Denied: Palestinian Land Rights in Israel[/I.

As to political equality in Israel, top government officials in Israel were recently saying it was okay to kill Arab members of Parliament. I challenge pro-Israel people to find one democracy in the world where such a thing occurs. Moreover, how many Arab cabinet ministers has Israel had? How many non-Jewish cabinet ministers has it had?

That is called apartheid.

Where else in the Middle East do they have apartheid?

[ 04 April 2004: Message edited by: The_Calling ]


Firstly land designation to the best of my knowldge has been ruled illegal by the Israeli Supreme Court. Sedcondly it was "racist" Israel that permits anyone into its parliament except those who are racist...like Kach...ohhh but that would show Israel as good you MUST see Israel as BAD silly me

[ 04 April 2004: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2004 10:10 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Aparthied in Israel accounts for 1.5 million disenfranchised persons. That is no small number of people. It is a serious human rights issues, not to be ignored, however much some Zionists would like us to.

No dice, Peaches.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 04 April 2004 10:15 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are we talking about Israelis in Israel or Palestinians who are not Israeli citozens in the PA?

As far as I know, while not perfect, all Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the State of Israel.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
The_Calling
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posted 04 April 2004 11:12 PM      Profile for The_Calling   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We are talking about non-Jews--including Christians--in Israel. It is illegal on paper but the land is controlled by groups who give it to Jews. There may be some token land given to non-Jews now but the fact remains that non-Jews live on less than 10% of Israel's land. Israel was created as a state for Jews, not as a multiethnic, multicultural society.

How many non-Jewish cabinet ministers have there been in Israel? Surely there must have been a few Christian ones, since Christians are the biggest backers of Israel.

quote:
Sedcondly it was "racist" Israel that permits anyone into its parliament except those who are racist..

Really? How do they determine who is a racist? Begin called Palestinians "beasts walking on two legs" and "cockroaches." How did he--a former terrorist--get elected to parliament, let alone become prime minister? How does a nation so strongly against racism manage to elect leader after leader whose claim to fame is killing non-Jews?

I'm not a typical critic of Israel. When the Arabs do something wrong, I'll be among the first to criticize them here. I want justice, not fullfillment of racist dreams of Likudists and Hamas-like people in the Arab world.


From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 05 April 2004 01:07 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
whose claim to fame is killing non-Jews?

This is ugly hyperbole and totally unecessary. If this is how you describe Begin ...how on earth do you describe, Lyndon Johnson or Anwar Sadat or Winston Churchill or Harry Truman or ....well the list is long of those under whose decisions many thousands were killed? Are Their "claim to fame" also the killing of non- Jews. What a sad and stupid thing to say!!!

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 05 April 2004 01:28 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The_Calling:
Everyone knows what is going on in Israel/Palestine; how many people know that Turkey destroyed over 3,000 Kurdish villages in the late 90's?

Relatively few, but it should perhaps be mentioned that those who do are disproportionately the very same leftists most critical of Israel. As a key instance, Noam Chomsky has spent quite a lot of words denouncing the Turkish treatment of Kurds, and is also very critical indeed of Israel.

quote:
In addition, it, unlike Turkey, China, or Syria, is reliant on American support for survival.

Yes. Although again, Turkey received very extensive military aid at the height of its violence against Kurds; there seems to be a correlation between state violence and American foreign aid. Not all violent, human-rights-violating states receive American military aid, but most states that receive American military aid are violent human-rights violators. Israel is no exception.

Note: I liked your post; I'm just adding a couple qualifications/clarifications.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 05 April 2004 02:00 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are we talking about Israelis in Israel or Palestinians who are not Israeli citozens in the PA?

We are talking about all persons who live under the authority of the Israeli state. Of those over 1/7th exist under marshal law, by fact of their racial origin. Arabs who live under the authority of the state of Israel are not automatically Israeli, whereas any Jew, even if they were born in Katamandu is. That is a racist policy. Apartheid.

This segment of the Israeli population, who muber 1.5 million persons has lived under these conditions ever since 1967. Interestingly, Jews who move to the region, known as the occupied territories, are afforded the rights of citizens of the state which rules them, those who are not Jews who were born in this region, are not afforded the rights of citizens.

R.A.C.I.S.M.

[ 05 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 05 April 2004 02:55 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What would happen if armed Palestinians seized homes and building in West Jersalem? They would be killed. Now what would happen if armed Jews did the same in East Jerusalem. Oh, they do it all the time. Is that the equality being spoken of? Should those evicted at the point of the gun form property their families occupied for generations console themselves knowing they can run for the Knesset in Israeli sanctioned parties?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
The_Calling
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posted 05 April 2004 04:50 AM      Profile for The_Calling   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is ugly hyperbole and totally unecessary. If this is how you describe Begin ...how on earth do you describe, Lyndon Johnson or Anwar Sadat or Winston Churchill or Harry Truman or ....well the list is long of those under whose decisions many thousands were killed? Are Their "claim to fame" also the killing of non- Jews. What a sad and stupid thing to say!!!

Do you consider Yasser Arafat a terrorist? If so, how were Begin and Shamir not terrorists?

Those other people you mentioned were military leaders who fought wars. Some of them arguably committed state terrorism. Begin, like Shamir, committed typical terrorism. You know, the kind that Israel and its supporters constantly now denounce. David Ben Gurion--like Arafat--failed to act to stop Israeli terrorists who were seeking independence from the UK, until the state of Israel was created. Apparently he considered them "freedom fighters." Ariel Sharon gloated about blowing up as many houses as possible and killing as many civilians as possible in Qibla. Even though he was wearing a military uniform, I consider that terrorism. We know that it would be considered terrorism if the Palestinian security forces did the same thing to Jewish Israelis.

quote:
Relatively few, but it should perhaps be mentioned that those who do are disproportionately the very same leftists most critical of Israel.

After Israel, Turkey should be next on the left's list, in my opinion. The West has a lot of influence over it and it can be brought to adhering to basic standards of human rights relatively easily.


quote:
Note: I liked your post; I'm just adding a couple qualifications/clarifications.

No problem. Additions are always welcome.


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