babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » The refugee problem?

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: The refugee problem?
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 April 2004 12:11 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting proposal in U.S. congress I wonder what other peoples takes are on this?

Bill on rights of Jewish refugee introduced in U.S. Congress


quote:
The resolution seeks to ensure the rights of Jewish refugees who fled Arab nations between 1948 and 1972.

According to the resolution, anytime the issue of Palestinian refugees will be addressed at any international forum, the U.S. representative will be required to bring attention to the issue of Jewish refugees.

According to estimates, some 900,000 Jews fled Arab countries between 1948 and 1972.

Resolution 242, adopted by the United Nations in 1967, calls for "a just settlement of the refugee problem." The Resolution makes no distinction between Arab refugees and Jewish refugees from Arab countries.



From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 01 April 2004 12:19 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A flagrant, racist, one-sided action by the US Congress. In other words: Par for the course.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 April 2004 12:26 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How so?
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 01 April 2004 12:30 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
According to the resolution, anytime the issue of Palestinian refugees will be addressed at any international forum, the U.S. representative will be required to bring attention to the issue of Jewish refugees.

If the same standard were applied by the US to any internation forum dealing with the Israeli Right of Return, then it would not be one-sided. As it is, it remains par for the course. And racist.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 April 2004 12:38 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Resolution 242, adopted by the United Nations in 1967, calls for "a just settlement of the refugee problem." The Resolution makes no distinction between Arab refugees and Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

this is the UN not the US and further more a just settlement does not necessarily equal the right of return and anyways if you do support that right then it must be applied equally but this of course would raise other problems. I short Israel would cease to exist and Jews returning to Arab states surly would not have equal right or a humanely justifiable standard of living.
But before we continue this argument just so I know we are heading do not believe in nation states or do you just believe the existence of Israel as Jewish nation state is unjustified?

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 01 April 2004 12:56 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Slow down, Justice! You're giving me whiplash with all your questions!

Allow me to clarify:

quote:
this is the UN not the US

Of course. But the bill mentioned in your opening post is the US, basically positing a directive that would state the Palestinian Right of Return cannot be discussed without the US intervening and presenting the Jewish refugee problem. Now, I'm not stating the Jewish refugee problem is not worth discussing; I think it is. But the only way for this US directive to be even-handed would be if it proposed the corollary (bring up the Palestinian Right of Return everytime the Jewish refugee problem is discussed).
quote:
further more a just settlement does not necessarily equal the right of return
Oh, yes it does. No matter how one frames the 1948 wars, those civilians who left their homes in war-time had the absolute right to return to their homes once that war had ended.
quote:
if you do support that right then it must be applied equally
A red herring. Jewish organizations and diasporas are not actively attempting to return to their former homelands; the Palestinians are. Their right is immutable, whether Jewish refugees claim their own right or not.
quote:
Jews returning to Arab states surly would not have equal right or a humanely justifiable standard of living.

In the first place, as I have already stated, there are no Jewish organizations currently pushing for this right to be implemented, mainly because their refugee problem has already been solved. The second point is more than debatble, but overall irrelevant.
quote:
But before we continue this argument just so I know we are heading do not believe in nation states or do you just believe the existence of Israel as Jewish nation state is unjustified?
I believe in secular, democratic states based on citizenship; not race, religion, or any other criteria. That said, should said state be overall mainly French or Japanese or Korean or Nairobi or whatever, so be it. But to make it a prerequisite to the character of the state is, in my opinion, inheritly anti-democratic.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 01 April 2004 10:16 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A red herring. Jewish organizations and diasporas are not actively attempting to return to their former homelands; the Palestinians are. Their right is immutable, whether Jewish refugees claim their own right or not.

While I agree that these organizations are not asking for the right of return, they also have a right to be compensated for their loses as individuals. The main reason that they have not is that the US and other contries have spent billions providing for them through aid to Israel. The US was not forced to do this, but did it as part of its policy toward Israel, likewise the Arab nations are not required to provided anything above modicum of support for Palestinian refugees, and the burden of responsibility for Israels actions lie with Israel.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 April 2004 11:14 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
likewise the Arab nations are not required to provided anything above modicum of support for Palestinian refugees, and the burden of responsibility for Israel's actions lie with Israel

If your saying Israel is solely responsible for the refugee problem and the no Arab state has responsibility I'm shocked
This is a complete double standard and biased. Yes Israel did get funding much of which it collected from Jewish aid agency's around the world. The real difference is that Israel decided to take care of their own rather then wait for somebody else to pick up the bill.

More to come…


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 April 2004 11:15 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Without falling into conspiracy theories, it is important to keep in mind that the Zionist movement has consistently supported policies favouring aliyah - migration of Jews from diaspora communities to Israel - as a solution to the problems faced by those communities. Some examples of this were the "Free Soviet Jewry" movement a couple of decades ago - a response to real discrimination, but why not fight for Jews in the then Soviet Union to enjoy equality in their own homeland, and democratisation for all, instead of favouring mass emigration? Or Sharon's overt invitation to Argentine Jews to leave their country due to its current economic crisis and emigrate to Israel, despite the issues of personal security involved. Or the attempt to promote emigration of the Jewish community in France due to a spate of anti-semitic incidents (real, once again, but infinitely less dangerous than the risk from suicide bombers or compulsory military service in a war zone) ...
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 April 2004 11:17 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

quote:

Jews returning to Arab states surly would not have equal right or a humanely justifiable standard of living.

In the first place, as I have already stated, there are no Jewish organizations currently pushing for this right to be implemented, mainly because their refugee problem has already been solved. The second point is more than debatble, but overall irrelevant.


Of course it's relevant it is the reason why

quote:
Jewish organizations and diasporas are not actively attempting to return to their former homelands;

From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 01 April 2004 11:25 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If your saying Israel is solely responsible for the refugee problem and the no Arab state has responsibility I'm shocked
This is a complete double standard and biased.

If more to come means that you are going to establish that there were Arabs who counselled Palestinians to leave their homes in in 1948, then I will argue that such is irrelevant because rights devolve to the individual.

Each home taken, is taken from a person or a family. Properties expropriated and then given, sold or leased to Israelis by the Israeli state count as profit to the Israeli state and its citizens.

Given that the profit from land expropriation from Palestinians has gone to the Israeli state and its citizens, and not the Arab states, the clearest line of recovery of lost assets is the Israeli state. If the Israeli state wishes to claim against Arab states as also being co-liable, to the individuals it should make that claim against them.

This is common law in regard to properties and liens against properties.

It hasn't?

Why not?

The issue of the Jewish refugees is irrelvant to the case of Palestinians as they are a seperate claimant. At this time there is no claim, and no claimant, so there is no case.

[ 01 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 April 2004 11:29 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
finaly
quote:
I believe in secular, democratic states based on citizenship; not race, religion, or any other criteria. That said, should said state be overall mainly French or Japanese or Korean or Nairobi or whatever, so be it. But to make it a prerequisite to the character of the state is, in my opinion, inheritly anti-democratic.

quote:
but why not fight for Jews in the then Soviet Union to enjoy equality in their own homeland, and democratisation for all, instead of favouring mass emigration? Or Sharon's overt invitation to Argentine Jews to leave their country due to its current economic crisis and emigrate to Israel, despite the issues of personal security involved. Or the attempt to promote emigration of the Jewish community in France due to a spate of anti-semitic incidents (real, once again, but infinitely less dangerous than the risk from suicide bombers or compulsory military service in a war zone) ...

These are all lovely ideas and I would support definitely support them. A world democracy in principle would be great but I'm afraid in the end you will always have the tyranny of the majority.
Further more were ever the Jews lived no matter how much they tried to fit in they were still attacked for being Jews. It's been this way for over 2000 years, and I must point out the Jews were probably not the only ones.
The point is no matter what no matter how hard Jews or other populations tired to fit in they were attacked because they were different. The Jews in Russia fought for a communist revolution and still the were attacked for being Jewish. The Jews in Germany thought they were German and still they were attacked for being Jewish. Dryfus a top ranking general in the French army totally loyal to the French his only crime being Jewish.
For these reasons I support every nation having their homeland. I think all people should be free to congregate with what ever group the feel they belong to and that these groups do deserve to live in homelands of their own with protective borders if there is a dispute in a certain area compromises should be made. That’s why I support a homeland for the Jews and a separate on for the Palestinians. Not some other Arab country.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 April 2004 11:40 AM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If more to come means that you are going to establish that their were Arabs who counselled Palestinians to leave their homes in in 1948, then I will argue that such is irrelevant because rights devolve to the individual.

Yes the rights do devolve to individuals but that’s not the problem. They are living in sub-human conditions them returning to Israel will not necessarily fix that. And Arabs states do have a responsibility to treat the residents of their land humanely especially if they are refugees. These are peoples lives here not pawns in a chess game. Once you've taken care of their bare necessities then you can go asking for compensation what ever it maybe.


quote:
Each home taken, is taken from a person or a family. Properties expropriated and then given, sold or leased to Israelis by the Israeli state count as profit to the Israeli state and its citizens. For instance, if your lawyer gives you bad counsel and you follow it, does not mean that your individual rights are abrogated.
Given that the profit from land expropriation has gone to the Israeli state and its citizens. The clearest line of recovery of lost assets is the Israeli state. If the Israeli state wishes to claim against Arab states as also being co-liable, to the individuals it should make that claim against them.
This is common law in regard to properties and liens against properties.
It hasn't?
Why not?

Like this is really going to happen???
Israel may have made some mistakes in the past but it was no mistake to take care of their own.

[ 01 April 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 01 April 2004 11:46 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is not the Aarb states that are preventing the Palestinians from recovering their property. Nor did any Arabs ever suggest that they should give up their property in exchange for Jewish properties in Arab states. The issue of the Jewish refugees is seperate from the issue of the Palestinians.

Israel has an obligation not only to take care of their own, but also to take care of (compensate) those who are discomfitted by Israel in the process of 'taking care of their own.'

The reason that Israel has never made the comparable claim against the Arab states is because they do not want to establish a legal legitmacy to the argument of the Palestinians. If they were to do so then it would be a de-facto recognition of the right of return (or compensation.)

Israel wanted the Jewish refugee problem to be resolved in the way that it was.

[ 01 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 April 2004 12:03 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The reason that Israel has never made the comparable claim against the Arab states is because they do not want to establish a legal legitmacy to the argument of the Palestinians. If they were to do so then it would be a de-facto recognition of the right of return (or compensation.)
Israel wanted the Jewish refugee problem to be resolved in the way that it was.

Of course it did. But that leads again why would Jews want to go back??? Israel has an interest in defending its existence and as I showed earlier it is quite justifiable.

No there are not preventing the Palestinians from recovering there land. They are only preventing them from having and education, job opportunities, healthcare and the right to own land in those countries. Palestinians might not be making the same compensation claims were they living under reasonable conditions and the only reason Arab states force them to live under these sub-human conditions is so they can be used as pawns to destroy Israel.

[ 01 April 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]

[ 01 April 2004: Message edited by: Justice ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 01 April 2004 12:35 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where has Israel made the legal claim in the UN that Jewish refugees should be compensated by the Arab states? Bringing it up as an argument that justifies their own actions is not the same as presenting a claim to the UN, as the Palestinians have done numerous times.

I argue that they have not because such a case would immediatly be a de facto recognition of the principals that are the basis of the Palestinian case for right of return.

[ 01 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 April 2004 12:40 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought I was clear?

IT HASN'T

And for good reason.

1) As I showed Israel would cease to exist and the Jews are better off with Israel existing.

2) The UN and Arabs states don't usually pay attention to Israel anyway and only condemn it what makes you think this will be any different.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justice
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3877

posted 01 April 2004 12:45 PM      Profile for Justice     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Also about the other argument about how come the Jews are not fighting anymore (and they did in the past) for rights in the lands there in?

If that’s going to be used as an argument I could say also the same for Palestinian refugees. The countries they are in should take some responsibility for their well being even if it is not their fault. Its not my problem shouldn't be an excuse.

I think to say what's happening in Africa is not my problem would horrible.


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 01 April 2004 12:52 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why bring it up if it is nothing more than an arguing point? It is esentially lying, given that Israel DOES NOT WANT the Jewish refugee problem resolved through right of return.

To do so is disingenous, since the claim is made for political purposes only, and does not represent a real need or desire, adn only to argue against Palestinian right of return, as Congress now has estabished in law.

[ 01 April 2004: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 01 April 2004 12:58 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Also about the other argument about how come the Jews are not fighting anymore (and they did in the past) for rights in the lands there in?

I am not trying to goad you, and I am actually interested in seeing anything about past claims made by Jews against the Arab states. I would like to see ome relevant source matrerial for my edification.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 01 April 2004 01:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fundamentally, there is a problem with the way this issue is phrased. The thing is that the other Arab states are not obliged to take on refugees forced upon them. It is another example of collective responsibility in action. It is typical of Zioist to critque Lebanese, Egyptian and Jordanian Arabs for not doing enough for the Palestinians, but this ignores the fact that these are actually different countries and that represent culturally distinct groups within the Arab world.

It is like saying that the responsibility for deported Jews in WW2 lies with the US, Canada, and France. I mean they are all white Europeans are they not, Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, and Quaker? This was a problem, and the other European countries could have done a lot more for the Jews of Europe, but the source of the problem was the German policy against the Jews, not the response of the countries that were asked to take on the displaced people.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 01 April 2004 01:32 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Justice:
quote:
1) As I showed Israel would cease to exist and the Jews are better off with Israel existing.
You have 'shown' neither thing; you have opined them. There is no reason by which it is necessary that Israel as a state cease to exist with the just resolution of the Palestinian refugee issue. Neither, I think, can it be in any way considered that 'the Jews' are better off with Israel existing prima facie. It may be true, it may not: But it is not a closed case.
quote:
If that’s going to be used as an argument I could say also the same for Palestinian refugees. The countries they are in should take some responsibility for their well being even if it is not their fault. Its not my problem shouldn't be an excuse.
All well and good, but neither does this negate the fact that the Palestinian regugee problem is an Israeli creation, and the ultimate responsibility for its resolution lies with the implementation of the Palestinian Right of Return.

I want you to know Justice, that between you and 'o', I see some hope for meaningful dialogue on this board. You are partisans (as are the rest of us) but not blind, and seem honestly interested in debate and nuance. Cheers.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 01 April 2004 09:46 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Palestinians riot as Israeli settlers gain new foothold

quote:
The settlers say that as in other such cases their purchase of the buildings were perfectly legal, though declined to name the Arab vendors because of the risks of reprisals against them and their families for collaborating with Jewish settler families. While not disputing that the properties had been legally purchased by the settlers, the Rajabi family said it believes it was tricked by Muhammad Maraghi, a member of a prominent local family, who they named as the previous owner of both buildings, into handing over Mr Rajabi's savings for the same home.

An interesting up-to-date case. Now how are such issues to be resolved Justice?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca